Carter and Hamas
polaris
Posts: 3,527
I know lots here don't like Jimmy C - his unwillingness to use the CIA for too many extracurricular activities hurt him at home ... especially to the super-proud ...
in any case - i don't see a thread on this and it's defnitely a worthwhile topic ... Hamas accepts Israel - surprise surprise! ... this is not good news that want to dismiss the org. even tho they are the democratically elected gov't of palestinians ... but they're terrorists you say? ... no worse then what Israel has done ...
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http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/416635
Hamas accepts Israel, Carter says
JERUSALEM – Former U.S. president Jimmy Carter said Monday that Hamas – the Islamic militant group that has called for the destruction of Israel – is prepared to accept the right of the Jewish state to "live as a neighbour next door in peace."
Carter relayed the message in a speech in Jerusalem after meeting last week with top Hamas leaders in Syria. It capped a nine-day visit to the Middle East aimed at breaking the deadlock between Israel and Hamas militants who rule the Gaza Strip.
Hamas leaders "said that they would accept a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders" and they would "accept the right of Israel to live as a neighbour next door in peace," Carter said.
The borders he referred to were the frontiers that existed before Israel captured large swaths of Arab lands in the 1967 Mideast War – including the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza.
In the past, Hamas officials have said they would establish a ``peace in stages" if Israel were to withdraw to the borders it held before 1967. But it has been evasive about how it sees the final borders of a Palestinian state and has not abandoned its official call for Israel's destruction.
Israel, which evacuated Gaza in 2005, has accepted the idea of a Palestinian state there and in the West Bank. But it has resisted Palestinian demands that it return to its 1967 frontiers.
Carter urged Israel to engage in direct negotiations with Hamas, saying failure to do so was hampering peace efforts.
"We do not believe that peace is likely and certainly that peace is not sustainable unless a way is found to bring Hamas into the discussions in some way," he said. "The present strategy of excluding Hamas and excluding Syria is just not working."
Israel considers Hamas to be a terrorist group and has shunned Carter because of his meetings with Hamas' supreme chief, Khaled Mashaal, and other Hamas figures. Syria harbours Hamas' exiled leadership in its capital, Damascus, and supports the Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas who warred with Israel in the summer of 2006.
Carter said Hamas promised it wouldn't undermine Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' efforts to reach a peace deal with Israel, as long as the Palestinian people approved it in a referendum. In such a scenario, he said Hamas would not oppose a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri in Gaza said Hamas' readiness to put a peace deal to a referendum "does not mean that Hamas is going to accept the result of the referendum."
Such a referendum, he said, would have to be voted on by Palestinians living all over the world. They number about 9.3 million, including some four million living in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem.
The only senior Israeli official to meet with Carter was President Shimon Peres. During their meeting, Peres scolded Carter for meeting with the Islamic militant group.
Israel says Carter's talks embolden Palestinian extremists and hurt Palestinian moderates as they try to make peace with the Jewish state. Abbas, who rules only the West Bank, is in a bitter rivalry with Hamas.
"The problem is not that I met with Hamas in Syria," Carter said Monday. "The problem is that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with someone who must be involved."
Carter said Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking has "regressed" since a U.S.-hosted conference in Annapolis, Md., in November. He faulted Israel for continuing to build on disputed land the Palestinians want for a future state and for its network of roadblocks that severely hamper Palestinians travelling in the West Bank.
"The prison around Gaza has been tightened," he said, referring to Israel's blockade of the territory since the Hamas takeover.
in any case - i don't see a thread on this and it's defnitely a worthwhile topic ... Hamas accepts Israel - surprise surprise! ... this is not good news that want to dismiss the org. even tho they are the democratically elected gov't of palestinians ... but they're terrorists you say? ... no worse then what Israel has done ...
*************
http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/416635
Hamas accepts Israel, Carter says
JERUSALEM – Former U.S. president Jimmy Carter said Monday that Hamas – the Islamic militant group that has called for the destruction of Israel – is prepared to accept the right of the Jewish state to "live as a neighbour next door in peace."
Carter relayed the message in a speech in Jerusalem after meeting last week with top Hamas leaders in Syria. It capped a nine-day visit to the Middle East aimed at breaking the deadlock between Israel and Hamas militants who rule the Gaza Strip.
Hamas leaders "said that they would accept a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders" and they would "accept the right of Israel to live as a neighbour next door in peace," Carter said.
The borders he referred to were the frontiers that existed before Israel captured large swaths of Arab lands in the 1967 Mideast War – including the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza.
In the past, Hamas officials have said they would establish a ``peace in stages" if Israel were to withdraw to the borders it held before 1967. But it has been evasive about how it sees the final borders of a Palestinian state and has not abandoned its official call for Israel's destruction.
Israel, which evacuated Gaza in 2005, has accepted the idea of a Palestinian state there and in the West Bank. But it has resisted Palestinian demands that it return to its 1967 frontiers.
Carter urged Israel to engage in direct negotiations with Hamas, saying failure to do so was hampering peace efforts.
"We do not believe that peace is likely and certainly that peace is not sustainable unless a way is found to bring Hamas into the discussions in some way," he said. "The present strategy of excluding Hamas and excluding Syria is just not working."
Israel considers Hamas to be a terrorist group and has shunned Carter because of his meetings with Hamas' supreme chief, Khaled Mashaal, and other Hamas figures. Syria harbours Hamas' exiled leadership in its capital, Damascus, and supports the Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas who warred with Israel in the summer of 2006.
Carter said Hamas promised it wouldn't undermine Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' efforts to reach a peace deal with Israel, as long as the Palestinian people approved it in a referendum. In such a scenario, he said Hamas would not oppose a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri in Gaza said Hamas' readiness to put a peace deal to a referendum "does not mean that Hamas is going to accept the result of the referendum."
Such a referendum, he said, would have to be voted on by Palestinians living all over the world. They number about 9.3 million, including some four million living in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem.
The only senior Israeli official to meet with Carter was President Shimon Peres. During their meeting, Peres scolded Carter for meeting with the Islamic militant group.
Israel says Carter's talks embolden Palestinian extremists and hurt Palestinian moderates as they try to make peace with the Jewish state. Abbas, who rules only the West Bank, is in a bitter rivalry with Hamas.
"The problem is not that I met with Hamas in Syria," Carter said Monday. "The problem is that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with someone who must be involved."
Carter said Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking has "regressed" since a U.S.-hosted conference in Annapolis, Md., in November. He faulted Israel for continuing to build on disputed land the Palestinians want for a future state and for its network of roadblocks that severely hamper Palestinians travelling in the West Bank.
"The prison around Gaza has been tightened," he said, referring to Israel's blockade of the territory since the Hamas takeover.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
yeah ... but how can you get a compromise if no one will talk to them?
thats true. I hope this meeting closes the gap between the two. I applaud carter for this. this is the first time I've heard hamas say anything like this.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080421/ap_on_re_mi_ea/syria_hamas_israel
But Mashaal says the group would never outright formally recognize Israel.
never????
But good on ol' JC for having the balls to do this. Too bad it probably won't change anything.
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in the grand scheme of things - who really cares? ... as long as the suicide bombings stop and the oppressive israeli control is removed ...
thing also to consider is this (like most wars) is a PR war ... you have to take some words with a grain of salt ...
No need to actually listen and take advice from someone who went out their to be civil and hear their concerns...we as a nation couldn't be happier to be defending Israel against the evil Hamas, end of story it seems. Do we even know how to listen?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I wish Israel and the US would talk to hamas, I really do. but I also don't see the 67 borders coming back. its a shitty situation
i like the reporter that asks in an arrogant tone... ''how would you feel about an ex president underminding your administration''
if he has a peanut gun he should of used it at that exact moment...
p.s. (to gloat) i met president Carter at a braves game in like '94...gotta a signed ball from him shook his hand and than ran away.. didnt really know how important he was at my age than.
don't get too attached to the land mass that is called israel... it should be departing in the next couple years.
this is like the 5th time you've said this. where is Israel going?
well he's doing something that neither side have stepped forward to do. its a first step. in a 1000 step process.
So we trumpet the hope and promise of democracy around the world, and when a government that we don't like is democratically elected, then we just ignore them and pretend they don't exist?
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Yeah, its all good that basically a terrorist organization has control of that region. but at least they were elected and it wan't the U.S. who put them in charge. I guess thats a plus.
I wonder if Israel will ever recognise Palestine? Or is that question off the table?
Depends what you mean by terrorism. Sounds to me like you don't believe Israel has committed any acts of terrorism?
Just in case you're wondering, the occupation itself is an act of terrorism.
True. Although I disagree with the '1000 steps part'. I really don't think that many steps are needed to achieve peace over there.
IMO: Israel needs to pull back to the 1967 borders - not something they can do overnight, but that's their problem they created for themselves, so fuck em!
Secondly, the U.S needs to stop feeding billions of dollars into the Israeli military machine every year. It's not doing anyone any good and is only succeeding in making the region more volatile.
Lastly, perhaps a U.N force needs to go in and administer the transition. Afterall, it's the U.N which overseas international law and which currently declares Israel to be in breach of over 60 resolutions - including that of the occupation - so maybe they should send their boys in - the U.S will need to sanction that of course. I expect they would need a peacekeeping force along the border for quite a while - something like what we've seen in Cyprus all these years.
Of course there's more to it than that, but these are the basics.
They have agreed to accept Israel, but they haven't agreed to 'recognise Israel', whatever that means.
This aticle explains the whole 'recognition' business very well...
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/rte.html
yeah ... imo ... it's really bs to keep the masses at bay ... really - without big bad evil groups like hamas, hezbollah or even iran (see "wipe israel off map") -they can't very well continue what they are doing over there ...
all it takes is to use words like terrorists and extremists and most people will buy into the mainstream ...
if you really want peace in the middle east - and you want it done without force or mass casualties - then you have to negotiate ... with BOTH sides ... Hamas is the democratically elected gov't of the palestinian people ...
are you aware of what happen in 1967?
I am aware of what happened in 1967, yes.
I expect your going to say that Israel was attacked and then retaliated, right?
Firstly, this is not what actually happened, and I've posted countless times on this messageboard providing sources which explain what really happened.
Secondly, what does this have to do with anything I mentioned above, and with Israel's need to abide by international law?
How is he hurting the process by hearing the other sides grievance? Maybe if we took the time to hear what these people had to say instead of just labeling them as evil and blocking them out we could actually accomplish something.
After years of Fatah control with the death of Arafat the political machine of Fatah could not keep control of the changing political tide. For many reasons people admired Arafat and did not stand against Fatah and their way of working mainly out of respect for a person who most deemed as a good leader. (the very word leader brings with it the idea of corruption - but that is another topic of conversation)
When it came time to hold democratic elections the people of Palestine voted Hamas into power as their representatives. This very act led to the people being demonized further from certain areas in the world - Fatah ran to those international entities, that it had been in prior contact with - the EU the USA, crying and putting forward reasons as to way they should be supported and not the democratically elected Hamas. We therefore saw the situation change in the West Bank where Fatah held most power - people where told they would recieve absolutely no international aid or assistance as long as Hamas remained in power ....... this type of behavior by Fatah led to them remaining in a somewhat position of power in West Bank ................ meanwhile in Gaza Fatah didn't have any stronghold of power and Hamas remained firmly in power.
Some Internationals where happy to see the two sections of the region separate from themselves almost into two different entities. The old British tactic of divide and conquer very much alive. With two different ruling parties now in exsistance EU and USA and UN to a certain extent have thrown their backing behind Fatah which further alienates the actual democratically elected government and the Palestinian people who voted for them. It sends a mixed message.... some countries being blown to pieces under the auspice of democracy but when democracy is achieved by others it is dismissed.
This type of divisive politics is quite familiar to me as I grew up amongst it. Politics in the North of Ireland has a long legacy of being based on tribal politics but until the mid eighties maybe even until the early 90's the political party of Sinn Fein where seen as terrorists, labelled as terrorists and weren't even able to appear on british television under any circumstances - their voices replaced by actor's voices - it was the most absurd idea.
Now however those men and women labelled as enemies of the state ( as were once the ANC in South Africa) are part of the established working government and the biggest nationalist party in the North of Ireland beating all its counterparts and further more their military organisation has disarmed and stood down recognising the legitimacy of party politics and continuing a struggle through political means not through the power of the ' Ballot box and armalite'.
My hope and reason really for this long drawn out opinion is the hope that maybe in a decade people can sit back and look at this region and say the same thing about Hamas as I have just commented about Sinn Fein. An armed political organisation wishing to become organised and active within the political field should be encouraged and embraced not demonised and alienated.
That being said, I do appreciate what Carter is trying to do here. Dialogue is a pretty reasonable option, given that even if you're talking to fanatics, the dialogue itself will not make the situation worse ... It MAY help (in this case, it didn't), and it certainty won't hurt.
my favourite slag on this forum (you guys are actually a lot smarter than your posts) ... hahahahahaaa ...
i'm calling you an idiot but want to qualify it ... :rolleyes: