Thats the trouble with making assumptions without reading thru the debate, i'd personally moved on to this bit:
Following on from this:
Now you're up to speed on this debate without having to walk anywhere.
My motivation for debating this issue is to find out the truth whatever that may be, i've moved on in my life from tryin to make a point.
Whats your motivation?
If you have nothing to add to the debate why bother?
I'm glad that "moving on" allows you the option of not answering my question. My addition to this debate was to add that buildings surrounding the Trade Center were severley damaged. The area surrounding the trade center is not like the heart of the financial district where buildings are on top of one another as far as the eye can see. Closer to the Hudson River (where the towers stood), there is more open space than other parts of the city, which was my point of requesting you to view the actual site. Considering that you are far too consumed with sarcasm and cynicism you would not be interested in logic and appear to be ready to swallow anything that is the opposite of what is not only the official report (who gives a shit, right?) but also the report of physicists and scientists have concluded. When I clicked on one of the links that you quoted the page was no longer found. Would love to read more about it, but it's time for my daily walk :rolleyes:.
"The leads are weak!"
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
were the firemen in charge of clean up (honest question) and if not could they have been there for the photo? and why would they only cut it down to where it was versus cutting it to the base?
abook posted something about the firefighters being mad at guiliani(sp) b/c he severely limited who was allowed in the area, the firefighters were mad b/c they thought they could still find and save ppl...you'd have to find her post, i don't want to recap it out of context
it's also interesting that they sealed the recordings of the firefighters communications on 9/11
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
abook posted something about the firefighters being mad at guiliani(sp) b/c he severely limited who was allowed in the area, the firefighters were mad b/c they thought they could still find and save ppl...you'd have to find her post, i don't want to recap it out of context
it's also interesting that they sealed the recordings of the firefighters communications on 9/11
Firefighters Union Letter On Rudy Giuliani
March 8, 2007
On March 14, 2007, the IAFF will host the first bi-partisan Presidential Forum of the 2008 election cycle. No other union and very few organizations has the credibility and respect to attract top-tier candidates from both political parties. The lineup of speakers who have agreed to participate in our Forum is truly a testament to our great union and the reputation we have built as a powerful political force and a coveted endorsement.
John Edwards, John McCain, Barack Obama, Chuck Hagel, Hillary Clinton, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, Duncan Hunter and seven other candidates will make their case before the 1,000 delegates who will be attending the Forum and to our entire membership via same-day broadcast on our web site.
Early on, the IAFF made a decision to invite all serious candidates from both political parties — except one: former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
We made this decision after considerable soul-searching and close consultation with our two New York City affiliates, the Uniformed Firefighters Association Local 94 and the Uniformed Fire Officers Association Local 854, as well as our former Local 94 President and current IAFF 1st District Vice President covering New York.
The IAFF recognizes that Mayor Giuliani generally enjoys a favorable reputation as a result of his actions immediately after the tragedy of 9/11. As such, we want our affiliates and every one of our members to clearly understand the reason and rationale behind this very serious and sober decision.
Many people consider Rudy Giuliani "America's Mayor," and many of our members who don't yet know the real story, may also have a positive view of him. This letter is intended to make all of our members aware of the egregious acts Mayor Giuliani committed against our members, our fallen on 9/11, and our New York City union officers following that horrific day.
Rest assured, our exclusion of Mayor Giuliani is not about any particular contractual or policy issue or disagreement, nor is it based on his unfriendly relationship with our New York City affiliates prior to 9/11 — which we will document and explain in additional correspondence later on during the campaign. In fact, we invited several candidates with whom we have had substantial disagreement on policy issues because we feel very strongly that our members have the right to hear from all candidates, not just those who tow the IAFF line.
Regrettably, the situation with former Mayor Giuliani is very different. His actions post 9/11 rise to such an offensive and personal attack on our brother and sisterhood — and directly on our union — that the IAFF does not feel Rudy Giuliani deserves an audience of IAFF leaders and members at our own Presidential Forum.
The disrespect that he exhibited to our 343 fallen FDNY brothers, their families and our New York City IAFF leadership in the wake of that tragic day has not been forgiven or forgotten.
In November 2001, our members were continuing the painful, but necessary, task of searching Ground Zero for the remains of our fallen brothers and the thousands of innocent citizens that were killed, because precious few of those who died in the terrorist attacks had been recovered at that point.
Prior to November 2001, 101 bodies or remains of fire fighters had been recovered. And those on the horrible pile at Ground Zero believed they had just found a spot in the rubble where they would find countless more that could be given proper burial.
Nevertheless, Giuliani, with the full support of his Fire Commissioner Thomas Von Essen, decided on November 2, 2001, to sharply reduce the number of those who could search for remains at any one time. There had been as many as 300 fire fighters at a time involved in search and recovery, but Giuliani cut that number to no more than 25 who could be there at once.
In conjunction with the cut in fire fighters allowed to search, Giuliani also made a conscious decision to institute a "scoop-and-dump" operation to expedite the clean-up of Ground Zero in lieu of the more time-consuming, but respectful, process of removing debris piece by piece in hope of uncovering more remains.
Mayor Giuliani's actions meant that fire fighters and citizens who perished would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever, with no closure for families, or be removed like garbage and deposited at the Fresh Kills Landfill.
Our Local presidents at the time attempted to meet with the Mayor to stop this despicable treatment of those who perished, but he refused to even see them face-to-face.
The scoop-and-dump continued. And when hundreds of family members of the fallen joined with our affiliate leadership and members to protest Giuliani's decision, he ordered senior officers of the New York Police Department to arrest 15 of our FDNY brothers, including a number of local elected IAFF leaders.
Giuliani modified his policy after the protest because public opinion was so strongly with our members. Ultimately, he was forced to put the fire fighters back on the pile. Our protests were later proven justified as more bodies were ultimately recovered and those families given a chance for some closure and a decent burial.
Giuliani argued that the change was for our own safety, but his argument was empty and without substance. Fire fighters had been on that pile since minutes after the twin towers fell — why all of a sudden, after nearly two months working on the pile, was Giuliani concerned about fire fighter safety?
In our view, he wasn't really concerned. The fact is that the Mayor's switch to a scoop-and-dump coincided with the final removal of tens of millions of dollars of gold, silver and other assets of the Bank of Nova Scotia that were buried beneath what was once the towers. Once the money was out, Giuliani sided with the developers that opposed a lengthy recovery effort, and ordered the scoop-and-dump operation so they could proceed with redevelopment.
In the first few days immediately after the disaster, Giuliani had said he was committed to the recovery of those lost "right down to the last brick." We believed him at the time. But, what he proved with his actions is that he really meant the "last gold brick."
Giuliani crucified fire fighters after our protest and publicly stated that our members were essentially acting like babies, that they didn't have the market cornered on grief. His insensitive statements demonstrated his inability to grasp what members of the FDNY were experiencing.
What Giuliani showed is a disgraceful lack of respect for the fallen and those brothers still searching for them. He exposed our members and leaders to arrest. He valued the money and gold and wanted the site cleared before he left office at the end of 2001 more than he valued the lives and memories of those lost.
Our members deserved the right to continue with a full search for their lost brothers and other innocent victims. Proudly, as you know, the fire service has a code similar to the military, where we leave no one behind. Recovering even a piece of a turnout coat or helmet gave our FDNY brothers and sisters and the families of the fallen some small semblance of peace, something to honor. But hundreds remained entombed in Ground Zero when Giuliani gave up on them.
The fundamental lack of respect that Giuliani showed our FDNY members is unforgivable - and that's why he was not invited. Our disdain for him is not about issues or a disputed contract, it is about a visceral, personal affront to the fallen, to our union and, indeed, to every one of us who has ever risked our lives by going into a burning building to save lives and property.
We have heard from some affiliates that Giuliani's campaign is beginning to reach out to our locals, looking to build support. If you are contacted by Giuliani, Von Essen, or a representative of the Giuliani campaign, we hope you will say not just, "No," but, "Hell no." And please let the IAFF Political Affairs Department know about it by calling (202) 824-1582.
Please share this correspondence with your membership. Thank you.
Fraternally and Sincerely,
Harold A. Schaitberger, General President
Vincent J. Bollon, General Secretary-Treasurer and Past President, UFOA of NYC, Local 854
Kevin Gallagher, IAFF 1st District Vice President and Past President, UFA of NYC, Local 94
Stephen Cassidy, President, UFA of NYC, Local 94
Peter Gorman, President, UFOA of NYC, Local 854
Written by IAFF
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I'm glad that "moving on" allows you the option of not answering my question. My addition to this debate was to add that buildings surrounding the Trade Center were severley damaged. The area surrounding the trade center is not like the heart of the financial district where buildings are on top of one another as far as the eye can see. Closer to the Hudson River (where the towers stood), there is more open space than other parts of the city, which was my point of requesting you to view the actual site. Considering that you are far too consumed with sarcasm and cynicism you would not be interested in logic and appear to be ready to swallow anything that is the opposite of what is not only the official report (who gives a shit, right?) but also the report of physicists and scientists have concluded. When I clicked on one of the links that you quoted the page was no longer found. Would love to read more about it, but it's time for my daily walk :rolleyes:.
I apologise for not answering you're question, the only one i could find i did answer. You'll have to ask it again.
Sarcasm and cynicism? i think if you read back thru the whole thing YOU instigated the sarcasm and cynicism, my fault is to try to hold a mirror up to people like YOU, and expect it to make any difference. But having read thru the link you posted i see who you COPY this from. Nice work! An almost perfect impression.
Ok your link, hard to read to be honest, what a smart-ass prick! but ok heres what i got from it:
"Actually, the collapse doesn't look like a controlled demolition. Real controlled demolitions try very hard to avoid flinging debris far beyond the building itself. They blow the lower stories and the center of the building to cause the building to collapse in on itself. The collapse of the World Trade Center doesn't look remotely like a controlled collapse, apart from stuff falling down.
Cant have it both ways. If the "world leaders in demolition" dont know how they would have done it it would have been VERY hard to pull off in a normal clean way. And actually that makes me a little more suspicious that the "world leaders in demolition" dont have an idea for bringing down a building? world leaders? on the ball, forward thinking, ready for a challenge, would be my idea of how a world leader in any field would be. Anyway thats by the by.
There are lots of accounts alleging that rescue workers encountered molten steel. The first question that comes to mind is whether these witnesses know the difference between incandescent and molten. Steel can get hot enough to glow long before it gets hot enough to melt. The fact that glowing steel was pulled out of the rubble doesn't mean it was molten.
Wheres the figures for the heat necessary to make steel glow? not on the tip of his tongue apparently. Put a little more effort into opening the link in the OP, and the other links in the thread youwill find molten steel, and indeed in most links i've seen, it seems a given, if it wasnt there i'd like to know.
To me the rest was all rubbish, the same sort of rubbish he rightly accuses others of talking. But he appears to do it from 10 storeys above everyone else. Its an interesting read actually mainly for the manner in which he addresses things. Its the same smart-ass, but ultimately empty waffling employed by a few people on this forum. A Hero figure maybe?
I'll repeat myself, i just want to find the truth on this, my 3 questions still stand.
Why can people like YOU not debate the issue for more than a few meaningfull points before they resort to smart-mouth stupidity?
I'll repeat myself, i just want to find the truth on this, my 3 questions still stand.
Why can people like YOU not debate the issue for more than a few meaningfull points before they resort to smart-mouth stupidity?
You didnt make it past one point!
Whats the problem?
I checked our correspondence and have to say that the walking comment that you made of me reaked of sarcasm. If I misunderstood, I apologize.
To your other question, no problem here.
As far as my link that I provided I just so happened to stumble upon it this morning while trying to find an expert opinion from the other side. If someone wants to make it their hero, more power to them. I find it interesting that you would describe his information as rubbish that is "10 stories above everyone else". How does one make that distinction? My last question for you is how does a falling building destroy buildings that aren't there to be destroyed?
"The leads are weak!"
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
Not really. Although it is an impressive list of ex-government and military officials, the majority of their complaints stem from the 9/11 Commission report dropping the ball, and aeronaurtics experts speaking of the unlikely nature that a passenger plane hit the Pentagon. On the flip side of the coin you can find the same types of individuals (Government employees past and present as well as military professionals) that will say the exact opposite. Opposing viewpoints of experts in their own field that have no business making claims as to what happened due nothing for me. That goes for both sides. To me the explanation that has been provided on the collapse on the WTC towers from physicists holds more water than a government or military official ever will. Where are the scientists and physicists on the conspiracy theory side? I'm sure they are out there, but I get endlessly frustrated by looking over conspriacy theory sites that talk about planes not crashing, missles hitting the towers, Flight 93 landing instead of crashing, etc. etc. If you have a link to experts in demolition as well as a link to scientific experts discussing the improbable nature of the towers collapsing on their own without explosives, I will be quite thankful! Here's a link that I found that was a good read:
so who is reliable for you? there are plenty of physicists like the professor at byu among others
what i find unlikely is it is just an odd coincidence certain ppl in this administration wanted things like an invasion/occupation of iraq before they even got into office, they even said in september of 2000 that the only way they would gain enough support from the public is thru a 'new pearl harbor'...it's also odd they took the authority away from NORAD to intercept or even send jets to check on flights that are hijacked, not responding to radio, deviated from their assigned flight path...2-3 months prior to 9/11...just as i think it's odd these same ppl have ties to the isi and terrorist cells we bought, created, trained, armed...in the 80's...the same isi who wired mohammed atta money very shortly before 9/11
what is the explanation for building 7?? 5 1/2 years later and they still can't finish their report, in fact the head guy said in an interview that he has no idea what caused it to collapse
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
The DC flight zone was not enforced then like it is today.
All I am saying look at which side has more facts and which one has more assumptions. The conspiracy theory side has almost all assumptions and very little fact that have to be made for the theories to be true.
so you're saying almost an hour after those in charge say it was obvious america was under attack...a known hijacked plane can enter dc airspace, make a u-turn, re-enter dc air space...and no one thought of sending fighters from andrew's air force base (only 10 miles from DC) at any point? a known hijacked plane, again almost an hour after 2 hijacked planes hit the towers, could deviate from its flight path and no one had the idea of sending any fighters after it?
yeeeeeaaaaaaaaah
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Proof of what? A picture without context is not proof.
What if I showed you a picture of a Unicorn? What would that prove?
hahaha you are funny
what about the big heap of molten mass in the video roland (i think) posted? is that out of context, too?
maybe you could put the cut beams and that molten mass into context for everybody?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
what about the big heap of molten mass in the video roland (i think) posted? is that out of context, too?
maybe you could put the cut beams and that molten mass into context for everybody?
I saw it. What is it? Molten steel? Molten aluminum? Really hot wood? What is it? How can you make any determination based on that video other than whatever that shit is it is very likely hot?
That's what I'm getting at. It isn't proof of anything!
I saw it. What is it? Molten steel? Molten aluminum? Really hot wood? What is it? How can you make any determination based on that video other than whatever that shit is it is very likely hot?
That's what I'm getting at. It isn't proof of anything!
did you watch it with audio? They said it was 4 floors of the WTC
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Sorry, thought it was the video of the backhoe I've seen elsewhere.
Anyways, Fire + Pressure = Really hot shit
apparently so
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
so you're saying almost an hour after those in charge say it was obvious america was under attack...a known hijacked plane can enter dc airspace, make a u-turn, re-enter dc air space...and no one thought of sending fighters from andrew's air force base (only 10 miles from DC) at any point? a known hijacked plane, again almost an hour after 2 hijacked planes hit the towers, could deviate from its flight path and no one had the idea of sending any fighters after it?
yeeeeeaaaaaaaaah
FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.
Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them."
Does this answer your question or does it just make too much sense to be true?
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
so you're saying almost an hour after those in charge say it was obvious america was under attack...a known hijacked plane can enter dc airspace, make a u-turn, re-enter dc air space...and no one thought of sending fighters from andrew's air force base (only 10 miles from DC) at any point? a known hijacked plane, again almost an hour after 2 hijacked planes hit the towers, could deviate from its flight path and no one had the idea of sending any fighters after it?
yeeeeeaaaaaaaaah
Maybe this will help.
FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
what about the big heap of molten mass in the video roland (i think) posted? is that out of context, too?
maybe you could put the cut beams and that molten mass into context for everybody?
The cut beams were cut during clean up and I found this explanation for the molten mass.
"Oxidation of iron by air is not the only EXOTHERMIC reaction of iron (= structural steel which is about 98 % Fe, 1 % Mn, 0.2 % C, 0.2 % Si.....). There is at least one additional reaction of iron with the capability of keeping the rubble pile hot and cooking!
The reaction between IRON AND STEAM is also very EXOTHERMIC and fast at temperatures above 400 deg C. This reaction produces Fe3O4 AND HYDROGEN. It is the classic example of a REVERSIBLE REACTION studied in Chemistry labs at high school. But believe it or not, back at the turn of the century, the reaction of iron and steam was used as an industrial process for the manufacture of hydrogen.
I think iron and steam could have reacted in this way (at least for a while) and generated a lot of heat. What is more, the hydrogen released would have been converted back to water by reaction with oxygen, thereby generating even more heat. In this case spraying water on the rubble pile was like adding fuel to a fire!
Now add in gypsum reactions with H2 and CO and we have a great source of SO2 and/or H2S to sulfide the steel!
Perhaps the endless spraying of water on the rubble pile was not such a good idea!"
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
so who is reliable for you? there are plenty of physicists like the professor at byu among others
what is the explanation for building 7?? 5 1/2 years later and they still can't finish their report, in fact the head guy said in an interview that he has no idea what caused it to collapse
and did not locate the BYU professor nor any physicists on the link. Maybe it's in a different link. For anyone in the Tri-State area that has Time Warner cable should get out NY1 on demand. It has a special on 9/11 where it shows there coverage from 9/11. A lot of the footage I had never seen, or at least had not seen since that day. Three things stand out to me about this show:
1. A couple of hours before WTC 7 collapsed they were reporting that it was being referred to as structurally unsound due to the continuing fire and is in danger of collapse.
2. They had a couple of shots of the area directly surrounding ground zero within a couple of days showing the charred and extensive damage done to surrounding buildings and buildings over three blocks away that another member on this board seems to think never happened.
3. The one word that kept being used by a lot of witnesses was "explosion". I know this is a major trigger for the Conspiracy Theorists. So I started to think about their description of what they were seeing. I believe that they used the word "explosion" because those close enough to hear and see the building(s) collapse could have described it as explosive. I've seen the clip of one person saying it sounded like an explosion, but compared to what? I doubt that guy (a different video I've seen) had been witness to other buildings collapsing to know the distinctive sound of a bomb going off VS. floor after floor coming down. All of the witnesses from 9/11 on the show that I watched used the term explosion as a way of describing the building coming down, not a single mention of explosives being used, which to me is a huge difference.
"The leads are weak!"
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
3. The one word that kept being used by a lot of witnesses was "explosion". I know this is a major trigger for the Conspiracy Theorists. So I started to think about their description of what they were seeing. I believe that they used the word "explosion" because those close enough to hear and see the building(s) collapse could have described it as explosive. I've seen the clip of one person saying it sounded like an explosion, but compared to what? I doubt that guy (a different video I've seen) had been witness to other buildings collapsing to know the distinctive sound of a bomb going off VS. floor after floor coming down. All of the witnesses from 9/11 on the show that I watched used the term explosion as a way of describing the building coming down, not a single mention of explosives being used, which to me is a huge difference.
Good points and this makes me ask the conspiracy theorists two questions?
Was the "explosion" sounds the sound of the explosives?
What type of explosives do you think were used?
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.
from Maj DOuglas Martin:
From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said.
and what is 1X7? certianly not 462!!!
According to an article in the Calgary Herald-Tribune from a month after the attack, fighter interception for stray aircraft actually was a weekly occurrence even before 9-11: “Today […] fighter jets are scrambled to babysit suspect aircraft or "unknowns" three or four times a day. Before Sept. 11, that happened twice a week. Last year, there were 425 unknowns -- pilots who didn't file or diverted from flight plans or used the wrong frequency. Jets were scrambled 129 times.” [3] Was every one of these 129 intercepts in the year 2000 over the ocean in ADIZ areas, with none over the continental U.S.? And in the nine years before that too, with the exception of one famous golfer?
i also found these 2 links
It is standard operating procedure (SOP) to scramble jet fighters whenever a jetliner goes off course or radio contact with it is lost. Between September 2000 and June 2001, interceptors were scrambled 67 times. 1 In the year 2000 jets were scrambled 129 times. 2
1. Military Now Notified Immediately of Unusual Air Traffic Events, AP, 8/12/02 [cached]
2. Norad on Heightened Alert, 9/13/01 [cached]
and can you tell me what 67X7 is???? 469, almost 462, the number Maj Martin stated
76) 9:25 a.m.: Air traffic controllers inform the US Secret Service as American Airlines Flight 77 approaches Washington D.C.
so they KNEW it was on it's way to DC?? they TOLD ppl it was on it's way to DC????
91) 9:36 a.m.: Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport instructs a military C130 aircraft that had just departed Andrews Air Force base to try to identify American Airlines Flight 77. The C130 reports it is a 767 and it is moving low and very fast.
soooo...they knew a hijacked flight was on it's way to DC but sent a C130 from Andrew's Air Force Base but not any of the fighters?????
109) 9:59:04 a.m....wtc collapses...Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded very interesting seismic activity on September 11, 2001 that has still not been explained.
While the aircraft crashes caused minimal earth shaking, significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred at the beginning of each collapse. The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake during the 9-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31.
The Palisades seismic record shows that -- as the collapses began -- a huge seismic "spikes" marked the moment the greatest energy went into the ground. The strongest jolts were both registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before the falling debris struck the earth.
i will get to the other replies later when i have time
but let me guess; you got these 'facts' from popular mechanics or a site reposting stuff from their article?
also, the byu professor is not on the list b/c he was never in government, i think his name was steve jones, there was also a guy who worked for UL (underwriter laboratories), but forgot his name
i don't get it...we are told we are under attack, cheney says this was obvious to him like 50 min before the pentagon was hit...they are told a hijacked flight is heading to dc....but instead of sending a fighter they send a much slower C130?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
but let me guess; you got these 'facts' from popular mechanics or a site reposting stuff from their article?
also, the byu professor is not on the list b/c he was never in government, i think his name was steve jones, there was also a guy who worked for UL (underwriter laboratories), but forgot his name
Yeah, some of these facts are from popular mechanics but I guess logical scientific explanations aren't good enough for you but some whacko and false facts that have been proven false are proof of this ridiculous crap. No matter what anyone says or proves you would never change your mind so it is a waste of time.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
from Maj DOuglas Martin:
From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said.
This just isn't true. don't know what else to say except OFFICIAL records show that only one plane was scrambled in the previous decade. but i already said this.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
from Maj DOuglas Martin:
From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said.
and what is 1X7? certianly not 462!!!
According to an article in the Calgary Herald-Tribune from a month after the attack, fighter interception for stray aircraft actually was a weekly occurrence even before 9-11: “Today […] fighter jets are scrambled to babysit suspect aircraft or "unknowns" three or four times a day. Before Sept. 11, that happened twice a week. Last year, there were 425 unknowns -- pilots who didn't file or diverted from flight plans or used the wrong frequency. Jets were scrambled 129 times.” [3] Was every one of these 129 intercepts in the year 2000 over the ocean in ADIZ areas, with none over the continental U.S.? And in the nine years before that too, with the exception of one famous golfer? .
This just isn't true. don't know what else to say except OFFICIAL records show that only one plane was scrambled in the previous decade. but i already said this
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
76) 9:25 a.m.: Air traffic controllers inform the US Secret Service as American Airlines Flight 77 approaches Washington D.C.
so they KNEW it was on it's way to DC?? they TOLD ppl it was on it's way to DC????
91) 9:36 a.m.: Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport instructs a military C130 aircraft that had just departed Andrews Air Force base to try to identify American Airlines Flight 77. The C130 reports it is a 767 and it is moving low and very fast.
soooo...they knew a hijacked flight was on it's way to DC but sent a C130 from Andrew's Air Force Base but not any of the fighters?????
109) 9:59:04 a.m....wtc collapses...Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded very interesting seismic activity on September 11, 2001 that has still not been explained.
While the aircraft crashes caused minimal earth shaking, significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred at the beginning of each collapse. The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake during the 9-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31.
The Palisades seismic record shows that -- as the collapses began -- a huge seismic "spikes" marked the moment the greatest energy went into the ground. The strongest jolts were both registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before the falling debris struck the earth.
i don't get it...we are told we are under attack, cheney says this was obvious to him like 50 min before the pentagon was hit...they are told a hijacked flight is heading to dc....but instead of sending a fighter they send a much slower C130?
I remember watching events that day and when they said that plane had turned around I was able to figure out it was on its way to DC when they said where it was. What you said proves nothing. Just another opinion made to sound like a fact.
As to the seismographs you contradict yourself. This stupid video shows the explosions very hight up the building that is says are explosives. Do you really believe these are these explosions that caused seismic activity? You make it sound like the explosions are at the base of the building but the video shows different. Also you led us to believe that Thermite was used to explain the cut angles of the beams. But thermite doesn't explode so that couldn't be it either.
Now a crumbling building would cause plenty of seismic activity but detenation devices? I don't think so. Look at the Popular mechanics story it clearly explains the seismograph activity.
As far as the plane you say they sent to intercept flight 77. What you said isn't true.
There was a plane in the area and they asked it to confirm that the plane had indeed crashed and it flew over the crash zone and confirmed it. the military plane was in route. the pilot of this plane has confirmed this but now refuses to do interviews because of people like you bothering him so much.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
What does that prove? Do you have evidence of another conspiracy? If so, what is your evidence?
At what point does Kevin Bacon come into the picture?
I don't believe the official story, but I don't believe some of the more far out conspiracy theories either.
I think Popular Mechanics probably should have had someone other than Chertoff write the article because of an obvious bias towards one side of the argument.
Do you mean the written by the cousin of Michael Chertoff?
So what if he wrote it. It is the expert testimony in the story that matters. It isn't like he put his opinions on paper and said they were fact. Just another example of conspiracy theorists blowing off factual information with an opinion that proves nothing.
You gotta do better then that.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
I don't believe the official story, but I don't believe some of the more far out conspiracy theories either.
I think Popular Mechanics probably should have had someone other than Chertoff write the article because of an obvious bias towards one side of the argument.
I should have read this post before I responed to your other one. I agree that someone else should have written the article and he does have a bias lean towards it. However, that was the purpose of the story and the facts in the story are hard to argue against.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
No matter what anyone says or proves you would never change your mind so it is a waste of time.
And therein lies the key. People who hold conspiracies so close to themselves will never let them go. They are probably thrilled that they now have 9/11 to cling on to. After all, Area 51, JFK, and Elvis are all getting a bit old. I believe that 9/11 will keep them going for at least 50 years, which I believe is what they thrive on. Do I think that Bush is a terrible human being who exploited 9/11 to have a free pass to wreak havoc in Iraq and will continue to use 9/11 as answers to pressing questions, even when it does not apply? Absolutely! Do I think that Bush is untrustworthy? You Bet? Do I believe that Bush is behind a mass cover-up and that he and his cronies orchestrated 9/11 and it turns out it was an inside job? GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!
"The leads are weak!"
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
And therein lies the key. People who hold conspiracies so close to themselves will never let them go. They are probably thrilled that they now have 9/11 to cling on to. After all, Area 51, JFK, and Elvis are all getting a bit old. I believe that 9/11 will keep them going for at least 50 years, which I believe is what they thrive on. Do I think that Bush is a terrible human being who exploited 9/11 to have a free pass to wreak havoc in Iraq and will continue to use 9/11 as answers to pressing questions, even when it does not apply? Absolutely! Do I think that Bush is untrustworthy? You Bet? Do I believe that Bush is behind a mass cover-up and that he and his cronies orchestrated 9/11 and it turns out it was an inside job? GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!
Really not interested in you're other post we have been over and over that already and i stated i dont give a fuck about it, "chopitdown" dealt with it a lot better and a lot earlier than you, get over it.
Everytime i casually think about 9/11 i have a period where its nice and easy to say to myself, "you know what its all bollocks, of course its as they say it is, theres no problem, fuck it, America took some shit, its hard, but they dish out plenty so of course they're gonna take some"
But you know what it lasts about 5 minutes before the questions come back and i cant give my thinking that lazy easy way out.
I have no invested interest in this, you people can all die for all i care really, Americans, Muslims, i dont give a fuck, good and bad in all, they're all the same to me in that i dont love any.
I like the truth tho, im a bit of an addict so i like to try to get to the bottom of things for a laugh.
You're way is the easy way out, as is most of Americas unfortunately for you.
All some people want is a debate and sensible answers, too many want to cling onto Mom with they're eyes closed and they're fingers in they're ears, if you cant find the weirdness in it all no-one can help ya.
Really not interested in you're other post we have been over and over that already and i stated i dont give a fuck about it, "chopitdown" dealt with it a lot better and a lot earlier than you, get over it.
Everytime i casually think about 9/11 i have a period where its nice and easy to say to myself, "you know what its all bollocks, of course its as they say it is, theres no problem, fuck it, America took some shit, its hard, but they dish out plenty so of course they're gonna take some"
But you know what it lasts about 5 minutes before the questions come back and i cant give my thinking that lazy easy way out.
I have no invested interest in this, you people can all die for all i care really, Americans, Muslims, i dont give a fuck, good and bad in all, they're all the same to me in that i dont love any.
I like the truth tho, im a bit of an addict so i like to try to get to the bottom of things for a laugh.
You're way is the easy way out, as is most of Americas unfortunately for you.
All some people want is a debate and sensible answers, too many want to cling onto Mom with they're eyes closed and they're fingers in they're ears, if you cant find the weirdness in it all no-one can help ya.
As far as I care you can die as well. At no point did I say just accept it for what it was. Since you clearly enjoy ignoring my posts and questions you probably overlooked me asking numerous times to see proof of what the other side claims from someone that is not retired military and is not some kook. Now if you want to provide me with that, great. Otherwise I will continue to search on my own. But the more nutbags I come across in my searches continues to hammer the point home more and more that although not everything may appear as it seems, it does not equate to mass conspiracy, government cover-up, inside job. To draw that conclusion based on the "proof" that I've seen is ludicrous. So, to me your grandstanding is comical at best. Keep it up. It's very entertaining.
"The leads are weak!"
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
Comments
I'm glad that "moving on" allows you the option of not answering my question. My addition to this debate was to add that buildings surrounding the Trade Center were severley damaged. The area surrounding the trade center is not like the heart of the financial district where buildings are on top of one another as far as the eye can see. Closer to the Hudson River (where the towers stood), there is more open space than other parts of the city, which was my point of requesting you to view the actual site. Considering that you are far too consumed with sarcasm and cynicism you would not be interested in logic and appear to be ready to swallow anything that is the opposite of what is not only the official report (who gives a shit, right?) but also the report of physicists and scientists have concluded. When I clicked on one of the links that you quoted the page was no longer found. Would love to read more about it, but it's time for my daily walk :rolleyes:.
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
abook posted something about the firefighters being mad at guiliani(sp) b/c he severely limited who was allowed in the area, the firefighters were mad b/c they thought they could still find and save ppl...you'd have to find her post, i don't want to recap it out of context
it's also interesting that they sealed the recordings of the firefighters communications on 9/11
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i found the link she posted
http://www.firefightingnews.com/article-US.cfm?articleID=27125
Firefighters Union Letter On Rudy Giuliani
March 8, 2007
On March 14, 2007, the IAFF will host the first bi-partisan Presidential Forum of the 2008 election cycle. No other union and very few organizations has the credibility and respect to attract top-tier candidates from both political parties. The lineup of speakers who have agreed to participate in our Forum is truly a testament to our great union and the reputation we have built as a powerful political force and a coveted endorsement.
John Edwards, John McCain, Barack Obama, Chuck Hagel, Hillary Clinton, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, Duncan Hunter and seven other candidates will make their case before the 1,000 delegates who will be attending the Forum and to our entire membership via same-day broadcast on our web site.
Early on, the IAFF made a decision to invite all serious candidates from both political parties — except one: former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
We made this decision after considerable soul-searching and close consultation with our two New York City affiliates, the Uniformed Firefighters Association Local 94 and the Uniformed Fire Officers Association Local 854, as well as our former Local 94 President and current IAFF 1st District Vice President covering New York.
The IAFF recognizes that Mayor Giuliani generally enjoys a favorable reputation as a result of his actions immediately after the tragedy of 9/11. As such, we want our affiliates and every one of our members to clearly understand the reason and rationale behind this very serious and sober decision.
Many people consider Rudy Giuliani "America's Mayor," and many of our members who don't yet know the real story, may also have a positive view of him. This letter is intended to make all of our members aware of the egregious acts Mayor Giuliani committed against our members, our fallen on 9/11, and our New York City union officers following that horrific day.
Rest assured, our exclusion of Mayor Giuliani is not about any particular contractual or policy issue or disagreement, nor is it based on his unfriendly relationship with our New York City affiliates prior to 9/11 — which we will document and explain in additional correspondence later on during the campaign. In fact, we invited several candidates with whom we have had substantial disagreement on policy issues because we feel very strongly that our members have the right to hear from all candidates, not just those who tow the IAFF line.
Regrettably, the situation with former Mayor Giuliani is very different. His actions post 9/11 rise to such an offensive and personal attack on our brother and sisterhood — and directly on our union — that the IAFF does not feel Rudy Giuliani deserves an audience of IAFF leaders and members at our own Presidential Forum.
The disrespect that he exhibited to our 343 fallen FDNY brothers, their families and our New York City IAFF leadership in the wake of that tragic day has not been forgiven or forgotten.
In November 2001, our members were continuing the painful, but necessary, task of searching Ground Zero for the remains of our fallen brothers and the thousands of innocent citizens that were killed, because precious few of those who died in the terrorist attacks had been recovered at that point.
Prior to November 2001, 101 bodies or remains of fire fighters had been recovered. And those on the horrible pile at Ground Zero believed they had just found a spot in the rubble where they would find countless more that could be given proper burial.
Nevertheless, Giuliani, with the full support of his Fire Commissioner Thomas Von Essen, decided on November 2, 2001, to sharply reduce the number of those who could search for remains at any one time. There had been as many as 300 fire fighters at a time involved in search and recovery, but Giuliani cut that number to no more than 25 who could be there at once.
In conjunction with the cut in fire fighters allowed to search, Giuliani also made a conscious decision to institute a "scoop-and-dump" operation to expedite the clean-up of Ground Zero in lieu of the more time-consuming, but respectful, process of removing debris piece by piece in hope of uncovering more remains.
Mayor Giuliani's actions meant that fire fighters and citizens who perished would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever, with no closure for families, or be removed like garbage and deposited at the Fresh Kills Landfill.
Our Local presidents at the time attempted to meet with the Mayor to stop this despicable treatment of those who perished, but he refused to even see them face-to-face.
The scoop-and-dump continued. And when hundreds of family members of the fallen joined with our affiliate leadership and members to protest Giuliani's decision, he ordered senior officers of the New York Police Department to arrest 15 of our FDNY brothers, including a number of local elected IAFF leaders.
Giuliani modified his policy after the protest because public opinion was so strongly with our members. Ultimately, he was forced to put the fire fighters back on the pile. Our protests were later proven justified as more bodies were ultimately recovered and those families given a chance for some closure and a decent burial.
Giuliani argued that the change was for our own safety, but his argument was empty and without substance. Fire fighters had been on that pile since minutes after the twin towers fell — why all of a sudden, after nearly two months working on the pile, was Giuliani concerned about fire fighter safety?
In our view, he wasn't really concerned. The fact is that the Mayor's switch to a scoop-and-dump coincided with the final removal of tens of millions of dollars of gold, silver and other assets of the Bank of Nova Scotia that were buried beneath what was once the towers. Once the money was out, Giuliani sided with the developers that opposed a lengthy recovery effort, and ordered the scoop-and-dump operation so they could proceed with redevelopment.
In the first few days immediately after the disaster, Giuliani had said he was committed to the recovery of those lost "right down to the last brick." We believed him at the time. But, what he proved with his actions is that he really meant the "last gold brick."
Giuliani crucified fire fighters after our protest and publicly stated that our members were essentially acting like babies, that they didn't have the market cornered on grief. His insensitive statements demonstrated his inability to grasp what members of the FDNY were experiencing.
What Giuliani showed is a disgraceful lack of respect for the fallen and those brothers still searching for them. He exposed our members and leaders to arrest. He valued the money and gold and wanted the site cleared before he left office at the end of 2001 more than he valued the lives and memories of those lost.
Our members deserved the right to continue with a full search for their lost brothers and other innocent victims. Proudly, as you know, the fire service has a code similar to the military, where we leave no one behind. Recovering even a piece of a turnout coat or helmet gave our FDNY brothers and sisters and the families of the fallen some small semblance of peace, something to honor. But hundreds remained entombed in Ground Zero when Giuliani gave up on them.
The fundamental lack of respect that Giuliani showed our FDNY members is unforgivable - and that's why he was not invited. Our disdain for him is not about issues or a disputed contract, it is about a visceral, personal affront to the fallen, to our union and, indeed, to every one of us who has ever risked our lives by going into a burning building to save lives and property.
We have heard from some affiliates that Giuliani's campaign is beginning to reach out to our locals, looking to build support. If you are contacted by Giuliani, Von Essen, or a representative of the Giuliani campaign, we hope you will say not just, "No," but, "Hell no." And please let the IAFF Political Affairs Department know about it by calling (202) 824-1582.
Please share this correspondence with your membership. Thank you.
Fraternally and Sincerely,
Harold A. Schaitberger, General President
Vincent J. Bollon, General Secretary-Treasurer and Past President, UFOA of NYC, Local 854
Kevin Gallagher, IAFF 1st District Vice President and Past President, UFA of NYC, Local 94
Stephen Cassidy, President, UFA of NYC, Local 94
Peter Gorman, President, UFOA of NYC, Local 854
Written by IAFF
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I apologise for not answering you're question, the only one i could find i did answer. You'll have to ask it again.
Sarcasm and cynicism? i think if you read back thru the whole thing YOU instigated the sarcasm and cynicism, my fault is to try to hold a mirror up to people like YOU, and expect it to make any difference. But having read thru the link you posted i see who you COPY this from. Nice work! An almost perfect impression.
Ok your link, hard to read to be honest, what a smart-ass prick! but ok heres what i got from it:
Followed by:
Cant have it both ways. If the "world leaders in demolition" dont know how they would have done it it would have been VERY hard to pull off in a normal clean way. And actually that makes me a little more suspicious that the "world leaders in demolition" dont have an idea for bringing down a building? world leaders? on the ball, forward thinking, ready for a challenge, would be my idea of how a world leader in any field would be. Anyway thats by the by.
my next point would be:
Wheres the figures for the heat necessary to make steel glow? not on the tip of his tongue apparently. Put a little more effort into opening the link in the OP, and the other links in the thread youwill find molten steel, and indeed in most links i've seen, it seems a given, if it wasnt there i'd like to know.
To me the rest was all rubbish, the same sort of rubbish he rightly accuses others of talking. But he appears to do it from 10 storeys above everyone else. Its an interesting read actually mainly for the manner in which he addresses things. Its the same smart-ass, but ultimately empty waffling employed by a few people on this forum. A Hero figure maybe?
I'll repeat myself, i just want to find the truth on this, my 3 questions still stand.
Why can people like YOU not debate the issue for more than a few meaningfull points before they resort to smart-mouth stupidity?
You didnt make it past one point!
Whats the problem?
To your other question, no problem here.
As far as my link that I provided I just so happened to stumble upon it this morning while trying to find an expert opinion from the other side. If someone wants to make it their hero, more power to them. I find it interesting that you would describe his information as rubbish that is "10 stories above everyone else". How does one make that distinction? My last question for you is how does a falling building destroy buildings that aren't there to be destroyed?
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
so who is reliable for you? there are plenty of physicists like the professor at byu among others
what i find unlikely is it is just an odd coincidence certain ppl in this administration wanted things like an invasion/occupation of iraq before they even got into office, they even said in september of 2000 that the only way they would gain enough support from the public is thru a 'new pearl harbor'...it's also odd they took the authority away from NORAD to intercept or even send jets to check on flights that are hijacked, not responding to radio, deviated from their assigned flight path...2-3 months prior to 9/11...just as i think it's odd these same ppl have ties to the isi and terrorist cells we bought, created, trained, armed...in the 80's...the same isi who wired mohammed atta money very shortly before 9/11
what is the explanation for building 7?? 5 1/2 years later and they still can't finish their report, in fact the head guy said in an interview that he has no idea what caused it to collapse
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
so you're saying almost an hour after those in charge say it was obvious america was under attack...a known hijacked plane can enter dc airspace, make a u-turn, re-enter dc air space...and no one thought of sending fighters from andrew's air force base (only 10 miles from DC) at any point? a known hijacked plane, again almost an hour after 2 hijacked planes hit the towers, could deviate from its flight path and no one had the idea of sending any fighters after it?
yeeeeeaaaaaaaaah
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
hahaha you are funny
what about the big heap of molten mass in the video roland (i think) posted? is that out of context, too?
maybe you could put the cut beams and that molten mass into context for everybody?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I saw it. What is it? Molten steel? Molten aluminum? Really hot wood? What is it? How can you make any determination based on that video other than whatever that shit is it is very likely hot?
That's what I'm getting at. It isn't proof of anything!
did you watch it with audio? They said it was 4 floors of the WTC
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Sorry, thought it was the video of the backhoe I've seen elsewhere.
Anyways, Fire + Pressure = Really hot shit
Why's that so hard to understand?
apparently so
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.
Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them."
Does this answer your question or does it just make too much sense to be true?
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FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.
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The cut beams were cut during clean up and I found this explanation for the molten mass.
"Oxidation of iron by air is not the only EXOTHERMIC reaction of iron (= structural steel which is about 98 % Fe, 1 % Mn, 0.2 % C, 0.2 % Si.....). There is at least one additional reaction of iron with the capability of keeping the rubble pile hot and cooking!
The reaction between IRON AND STEAM is also very EXOTHERMIC and fast at temperatures above 400 deg C. This reaction produces Fe3O4 AND HYDROGEN. It is the classic example of a REVERSIBLE REACTION studied in Chemistry labs at high school. But believe it or not, back at the turn of the century, the reaction of iron and steam was used as an industrial process for the manufacture of hydrogen.
I think iron and steam could have reacted in this way (at least for a while) and generated a lot of heat. What is more, the hydrogen released would have been converted back to water by reaction with oxygen, thereby generating even more heat. In this case spraying water on the rubble pile was like adding fuel to a fire!
Now add in gypsum reactions with H2 and CO and we have a great source of SO2 and/or H2S to sulfide the steel!
Perhaps the endless spraying of water on the rubble pile was not such a good idea!"
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Just went through the list again on
http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport
and did not locate the BYU professor nor any physicists on the link. Maybe it's in a different link. For anyone in the Tri-State area that has Time Warner cable should get out NY1 on demand. It has a special on 9/11 where it shows there coverage from 9/11. A lot of the footage I had never seen, or at least had not seen since that day. Three things stand out to me about this show:
1. A couple of hours before WTC 7 collapsed they were reporting that it was being referred to as structurally unsound due to the continuing fire and is in danger of collapse.
2. They had a couple of shots of the area directly surrounding ground zero within a couple of days showing the charred and extensive damage done to surrounding buildings and buildings over three blocks away that another member on this board seems to think never happened.
3. The one word that kept being used by a lot of witnesses was "explosion". I know this is a major trigger for the Conspiracy Theorists. So I started to think about their description of what they were seeing. I believe that they used the word "explosion" because those close enough to hear and see the building(s) collapse could have described it as explosive. I've seen the clip of one person saying it sounded like an explosion, but compared to what? I doubt that guy (a different video I've seen) had been witness to other buildings collapsing to know the distinctive sound of a bomb going off VS. floor after floor coming down. All of the witnesses from 9/11 on the show that I watched used the term explosion as a way of describing the building coming down, not a single mention of explosives being used, which to me is a huge difference.
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
Good points and this makes me ask the conspiracy theorists two questions?
Was the "explosion" sounds the sound of the explosives?
What type of explosives do you think were used?
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from Maj DOuglas Martin:
From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said.
and what is 1X7? certianly not 462!!!
According to an article in the Calgary Herald-Tribune from a month after the attack, fighter interception for stray aircraft actually was a weekly occurrence even before 9-11: “Today […] fighter jets are scrambled to babysit suspect aircraft or "unknowns" three or four times a day. Before Sept. 11, that happened twice a week. Last year, there were 425 unknowns -- pilots who didn't file or diverted from flight plans or used the wrong frequency. Jets were scrambled 129 times.” [3] Was every one of these 129 intercepts in the year 2000 over the ocean in ADIZ areas, with none over the continental U.S.? And in the nine years before that too, with the exception of one famous golfer?
i also found these 2 links
It is standard operating procedure (SOP) to scramble jet fighters whenever a jetliner goes off course or radio contact with it is lost. Between September 2000 and June 2001, interceptors were scrambled 67 times. 1 In the year 2000 jets were scrambled 129 times. 2
1. Military Now Notified Immediately of Unusual Air Traffic Events, AP, 8/12/02 [cached]
2. Norad on Heightened Alert, 9/13/01 [cached]
and can you tell me what 67X7 is???? 469, almost 462, the number Maj Martin stated
there's lots of info w/ outside links
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/norad/
lots of other unanswered questions at
http://www.911timeline.net/
like:
76) 9:25 a.m.: Air traffic controllers inform the US Secret Service as American Airlines Flight 77 approaches Washington D.C.
so they KNEW it was on it's way to DC?? they TOLD ppl it was on it's way to DC????
91) 9:36 a.m.: Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport instructs a military C130 aircraft that had just departed Andrews Air Force base to try to identify American Airlines Flight 77. The C130 reports it is a 767 and it is moving low and very fast.
soooo...they knew a hijacked flight was on it's way to DC but sent a C130 from Andrew's Air Force Base but not any of the fighters?????
109) 9:59:04 a.m....wtc collapses...Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded very interesting seismic activity on September 11, 2001 that has still not been explained.
While the aircraft crashes caused minimal earth shaking, significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred at the beginning of each collapse. The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake during the 9-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31.
The Palisades seismic record shows that -- as the collapses began -- a huge seismic "spikes" marked the moment the greatest energy went into the ground. The strongest jolts were both registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before the falling debris struck the earth.
i will get to the other replies later when i have time
but let me guess; you got these 'facts' from popular mechanics or a site reposting stuff from their article?
also, the byu professor is not on the list b/c he was never in government, i think his name was steve jones, there was also a guy who worked for UL (underwriter laboratories), but forgot his name
i don't get it...we are told we are under attack, cheney says this was obvious to him like 50 min before the pentagon was hit...they are told a hijacked flight is heading to dc....but instead of sending a fighter they send a much slower C130?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Yeah, some of these facts are from popular mechanics but I guess logical scientific explanations aren't good enough for you but some whacko and false facts that have been proven false are proof of this ridiculous crap. No matter what anyone says or proves you would never change your mind so it is a waste of time.
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This just isn't true. don't know what else to say except OFFICIAL records show that only one plane was scrambled in the previous decade. but i already said this
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I remember watching events that day and when they said that plane had turned around I was able to figure out it was on its way to DC when they said where it was. What you said proves nothing. Just another opinion made to sound like a fact.
As to the seismographs you contradict yourself. This stupid video shows the explosions very hight up the building that is says are explosives. Do you really believe these are these explosions that caused seismic activity? You make it sound like the explosions are at the base of the building but the video shows different. Also you led us to believe that Thermite was used to explain the cut angles of the beams. But thermite doesn't explode so that couldn't be it either.
Now a crumbling building would cause plenty of seismic activity but detenation devices? I don't think so. Look at the Popular mechanics story it clearly explains the seismograph activity.
As far as the plane you say they sent to intercept flight 77. What you said isn't true.
There was a plane in the area and they asked it to confirm that the plane had indeed crashed and it flew over the crash zone and confirmed it. the military plane was in route. the pilot of this plane has confirmed this but now refuses to do interviews because of people like you bothering him so much.
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Do you mean the written by the cousin of Michael Chertoff?
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
What does that prove? Do you have evidence of another conspiracy? If so, what is your evidence?
At what point does Kevin Bacon come into the picture?
I don't believe the official story, but I don't believe some of the more far out conspiracy theories either.
I think Popular Mechanics probably should have had someone other than Chertoff write the article because of an obvious bias towards one side of the argument.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
So what if he wrote it. It is the expert testimony in the story that matters. It isn't like he put his opinions on paper and said they were fact. Just another example of conspiracy theorists blowing off factual information with an opinion that proves nothing.
You gotta do better then that.
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I should have read this post before I responed to your other one. I agree that someone else should have written the article and he does have a bias lean towards it. However, that was the purpose of the story and the facts in the story are hard to argue against.
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And therein lies the key. People who hold conspiracies so close to themselves will never let them go. They are probably thrilled that they now have 9/11 to cling on to. After all, Area 51, JFK, and Elvis are all getting a bit old. I believe that 9/11 will keep them going for at least 50 years, which I believe is what they thrive on. Do I think that Bush is a terrible human being who exploited 9/11 to have a free pass to wreak havoc in Iraq and will continue to use 9/11 as answers to pressing questions, even when it does not apply? Absolutely! Do I think that Bush is untrustworthy? You Bet? Do I believe that Bush is behind a mass cover-up and that he and his cronies orchestrated 9/11 and it turns out it was an inside job? GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
Really not interested in you're other post we have been over and over that already and i stated i dont give a fuck about it, "chopitdown" dealt with it a lot better and a lot earlier than you, get over it.
Everytime i casually think about 9/11 i have a period where its nice and easy to say to myself, "you know what its all bollocks, of course its as they say it is, theres no problem, fuck it, America took some shit, its hard, but they dish out plenty so of course they're gonna take some"
But you know what it lasts about 5 minutes before the questions come back and i cant give my thinking that lazy easy way out.
I have no invested interest in this, you people can all die for all i care really, Americans, Muslims, i dont give a fuck, good and bad in all, they're all the same to me in that i dont love any.
I like the truth tho, im a bit of an addict so i like to try to get to the bottom of things for a laugh.
You're way is the easy way out, as is most of Americas unfortunately for you.
All some people want is a debate and sensible answers, too many want to cling onto Mom with they're eyes closed and they're fingers in they're ears, if you cant find the weirdness in it all no-one can help ya.
As far as I care you can die as well. At no point did I say just accept it for what it was. Since you clearly enjoy ignoring my posts and questions you probably overlooked me asking numerous times to see proof of what the other side claims from someone that is not retired military and is not some kook. Now if you want to provide me with that, great. Otherwise I will continue to search on my own. But the more nutbags I come across in my searches continues to hammer the point home more and more that although not everything may appear as it seems, it does not equate to mass conspiracy, government cover-up, inside job. To draw that conclusion based on the "proof" that I've seen is ludicrous. So, to me your grandstanding is comical at best. Keep it up. It's very entertaining.
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"