Hey friend now we are talking affirmiative action type crap and I am on board with you there....IMHO if your the best student/and or job candidate it should not matter if your white/black/brown/green....
However I view healthcare as a total separate concept...I am not trying to portray you as cold (because I really believe you are not) I just honestly feel that many people in the USA really miss the boat on universal healthcare because they have never been exposed to it...I have spoken to many Canadians who have worked in States and came back....so they provided a good comparison on the two systems and it seems the vast (actually all lol) majority believe the social system is better for society as a whole....
i've known many canadians and canadians work. i haven't met a lazy canadian yet. that's where the difference is. for example; when i was a teen; there was a woman we used to buy our pot from. she had one of the nicest houses in a chicago suburb yet was on welfare. she cleared at least $3000 a week; extimated from the amount of product i know she moved. until this kind of abuse is dealt with; america will never have socialized medicine.
i've known many canadians and canadians work. i haven't met a lazy canadian yet. that's where the difference is. for example; when i was a teen; there was a woman we used to buy our pot from. she had one of the nicest houses in a chicago suburb yet was on welfare. she cleared at least $3000 a week; extimated from the amount of product i know she moved. until this kind of abuse is dealt with; america will never have socialized medicine.
You will never get rid of free-loaders.
You see that is the difference that makes the "left" and "right" so different...the left believes that it is okay to take up the free-loaders due to the majority of those needing help actually do need it (view it as a necessary sacrafice) and the right chooses to exclude everyone based on the fact the really lazy people do deserve no help because of their lack of contribution to soceity (therefore the shelfish actions of a few cause everyone to loss the help) And the latter is the view of many Americans and yes that is why it will not work.
I would venture to say that all of the "advantages" she enjoyed as a white girl from a middle (or upper if she was able to go to college) class family far outweighed the one or two "injustices" *eyeroll* that she has received for the same reason.
I tell my daughter that because she is -
1. White (therefore doesnt face persecution based solely on the color of her skin)
2. Living in the USA.
3. middle class
etc. etc....that she is among the top 5% blessed people on this Planet therefore her job in life is to assist those who werent born into such privledge.
Its better to give them a reality check than to make them think they are victims of an unfair world.
we were poor at the time and she was top student in her class; so i should tell her that because she's white; she has to work harder than anyone else. i should also tell her that the persecution she faced as 1 of 2 whites in a hispanic world is because she was cursed by being born white in america.
she gets even now. she's working in a hospital and documents every time a minority messes up; then promptly fires them. everything comes round.
You see that is the difference that makes the "left" and "right" so different...the left believes that it is okay to take up the free-loaders due to the majority of those needing help actually do need it (view it as a necessary sacrafice) and the right chooses to exclude everyone based on the fact the really lazy people do deserve no help because of their lack of contribution to soceity (therefore the shelfish actions of a few cause everyone to loss the help) And the latter is the view of many Americans and yes that is why it will not work.
i agree; and the right controls the money. there's a woman at my doctors office that receives social security disability; medicare and medicaid. she works under her husbands social security number. i've reported her twice and an employee has reported her once. yet she's still working there. how do we control the abuse without becoming a police state? and; why should i work if i can get healthcare and welfare free? the choice is work and pay for others; or collect a check every month and spend my time fishing.
she gets even now. she's working in a hospital and documents every time a minority messes up; then promptly fires them. everything comes round.
But *scratches head* THATS WRONG!
So much for "Be the change that you want to see."
Your post is just wrong on too many levels to even address.
All I can say is- try not to view the World from such a victim mentality, instead put that energy into understanding the plight of others and youll be less frustrated.
Google some pics of whats going on in Darfur right now, and suddenly this horrible, unfair Country you were born into will seem more liveable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So subtly is the fume of life designed
to clarify the pulse and cloud the mind
and leave us once again, undone.. possessed.
...
Be yourself- those who mind dont matter
and those who matter dont mind.
Your post is just wrong on too many levels to even address.
All I can say is- try not to view the World from such a victim mentality, instead put that energy into understanding the plight of others and youll be less frustrated.
Google some pics of whats going on in Darfur right now, and suddenly this horrible, unfair Country you were born into will seem more liveable.
as a child the only way we ate was to grow and raise our own food. starving is a choice. i recall eating potatoes for a month because my son needed emergency dental work. i remember shooting rabbits and squirrels so my family could have meat. now it's time to help those who helped me.......my family.
as a child the only way we ate was to grow and raise our own food. starving is a choice. i recall eating potatoes for a month because my son needed emergency dental work. i remember shooting rabbits and squirrels so my family could have meat. now it's time to help those who helped me.......my family.
I have a childhood sob story as well.
(My parents were former San Fransisco hippies)
Raised in "The OC" but the only crappy house on the street.
My Dad killing and cooking my pet chicken so we could eat.
Walking home from school and seeing my one toy with a $5.00
sign on it in the front yard, again so we could eat that night.
Blah, blah, blah.
Yeah, it sucked, but I was still luckier than 2/3 (or more) of the rest of the kids on this entire planet.
When I became an adult, and saw how the suffering of people in 3rd world countries made my upbringing look like Paris Hiltons, I decided to shut up and do what I could to help the true sufferers in the world.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So subtly is the fume of life designed
to clarify the pulse and cloud the mind
and leave us once again, undone.. possessed.
...
Be yourself- those who mind dont matter
and those who matter dont mind.
This thread is filled with so many absurd conceptions about healthcare especially coming from those who have never even belonged to this system.
It goes to show why healthcare can never work in America, people are too worried about themselves to think of anyone else.
exactly! it not being 'free' but paid wit T A X E S is the way they are trying to scare the public into not wanting it...they say it's liberals wanting bigger government...but look at republican inventions; the war on drugs (which gets more money that the dept of education, interior and i think even state! the colossal waste of taxpayer $ in iraq.....cut the war on drugs and you could more than pay for healthcare, it's never proven to work except now you can get pretty much any drug in any high school
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
exactly! it not being 'free' but paid wit T A X E S is the way they are trying to scare the public into not wanting it...they say it's liberals wanting bigger government...but look at republican inventions; the war on drugs (which gets more money that the dept of education, interior and i think even state! the colossal waste of taxpayer $ in iraq.....cut the war on drugs and you could more than pay for healthcare, it's never proven to work except now you can get pretty much any drug in any high school
And El_K enters the room, cantcha just feel it....?;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So subtly is the fume of life designed
to clarify the pulse and cloud the mind
and leave us once again, undone.. possessed.
...
Be yourself- those who mind dont matter
and those who matter dont mind.
And El_K enters the room, cantcha just feel it....?;)
and now you can feel it disipate as i leave for the corporate plantation :(
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i agree; and the right controls the money. there's a woman at my doctors office that receives social security disability; medicare and medicaid. she works under her husbands social security number. i've reported her twice and an employee has reported her once. yet she's still working there. how do we control the abuse without becoming a police state? and; why should i work if i can get healthcare and welfare free? the choice is work and pay for others; or collect a check every month and spend my time fishing.
There are more pressing issues in your country that are already leading you to a police state.
Plus I once again think you are inflating the amount of free-loaders that do exist....I do not know of anyone off hand that views "why should I work".
As for paying for others how does that make a difference if your taxes were to be put to healthcare, as I said no more premiums...you are losing nothing through universal healthcare other than that you can get some control back in regards to your health. You do not have an insurance company telling what you can/cannot have done, who you can go see, etc.
I still cannot fathom how so many Americans can be so afraid of big government when the alternate decision is to be dictated by large corporations who will do their best to try to fuck you over in what they provide.
With me I see a doctor (no paper work at all nothing...show a health card) I wait at a 1/2 hour (without an appointment and sometimes longer depending on the day), I see a doctor and leave. No paperwork, no policy numbers, no dicking around on the behalf of the insurance company. The positives of an universal system are astronomical over the private way. Plus it does not matter what you make.
My view of healthcare is ethical, healthcare is a basic need for everyone without (like food, water, and shelter) you will die therefore everyone should be protected from it, which also will include the tiny percentage of those who choose to lead an easy existence. Better to bring them along then cut off the vast more who do work hard at their low paying jobs.
I must stress that it is not perfect, and I understand the flaws trust me but I would not change my system for the one down south.
exactly! it not being 'free' but paid wit T A X E S is the way they are trying to scare the public into not wanting it...they say it's liberals wanting bigger government...but look at republican inventions; the war on drugs (which gets more money that the dept of education, interior and i think even state! the colossal waste of taxpayer $ in iraq.....cut the war on drugs and you could more than pay for healthcare, it's never proven to work except now you can get pretty much any drug in any high school
I agree; it really shows, as a nation, where the priorities lie and certainly is not with the care of it's own people (especially that the war on drugs gets more money than education that is truely tragic)
The war on drugs is such a pile of shit idea that I could go on for days about the absolute stupidity of it.
I have a childhood sob story as well.
(My parents were former San Fransisco hippies)
Raised in "The OC" but the only crappy house on the street.
My Dad killing and cooking my pet chicken so we could eat.
Walking home from school and seeing my one toy with a $5.00
sign on it in the front yard, again so we could eat that night.
Blah, blah, blah.
Yeah, it sucked, but I was still luckier than 2/3 (or more) of the rest of the kids on this entire planet.
When I became an adult, and saw how the suffering of people in 3rd world countries made my upbringing look like Paris Hiltons, I decided to shut up and do what I could to help the true sufferers in the world.
and i admire you for that. i don't roll that way though.
I agree; it really shows, as a nation, where the priorities lie and certainly is not with the care of it's own people (especially that the war on drugs gets more money than education that is truely tragic)
The war on drugs is such a pile of shit idea that I could go on for days about the absolute stupidity of it.
Seriously...if we could scale down all the government programs that are completely useless, we could have UHC and then some.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Seriously...if we could scale down all the government programs that are completely useless, we could have UHC and then some.
You would have an absolute great system...I would like to see the amount of money spent on the Faux War on Drugs (in today's dollars) and the War in Iraq.
I was disgusted by the war on drugs program getting more money than education that is pathetic.
I agree; it really shows, as a nation, where the priorities lie and certainly is not with the care of it's own people (especially that the war on drugs gets more money than education that is truely tragic)
The war on drugs is such a pile of shit idea that I could go on for days about the absolute stupidity of it.
i would believe you if it wasn't for stories like this. as the rest of the world moves towards private healthcare they want americans; which they have no interest in; to have socialized medicine.
BY DAVID GRATZER
Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
TORONTO--"I haven't seen 'Sicko,' " says Avril Allen about the new Michael Moore documentary, which advocates socialized medicine for the United States. The film, which has been widely viewed on the Internet, and which will officially open in the U.S. and Canada on Friday, has been getting rave reviews. But Ms. Allen, a lawyer, has no plans to watch it. She's just too busy preparing to file suit against Ontario's provincial government about its health-care system next month.
Her client, Lindsay McCreith, would have had to wait for four months just to get an MRI, and then months more to see a neurologist for his malignant brain tumor. Instead, frustrated and ill, the retired auto-body shop owner traveled to Buffalo, N.Y., for a lifesaving surgery. Now he's suing for the right to opt out of Canada's government-run health care, which he considers dangerous.
Ms. Allen figures the lawsuit has a fighting chance: In 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that "access to wait lists is not access to health care," striking down key Quebec laws that prohibited private medicine and private health insurance.
In the U.S., 83 House Democrats voted for a bill in 1993 calling for single-payer health care. That idea collapsed with HillaryCare and since then has existed on the fringes of the debate--winning praise from academics and pressure groups, but remaining largely out of the political discussion. Mr. Moore's documentary intends to change that, exposing millions to his argument that American health care is sick and socialized medicine is the cure.
It's not simply that Mr. Moore is wrong. His grand tour of public health care systems misses the big story: While he prescribes socialism, market-oriented reforms are percolating in cities from Stockholm to Saskatoon.
Mr. Moore goes to London, Ontario, where he notes that not a single patient has waited in the hospital emergency room more than 45 minutes. "It's a fabulous system," a woman explains. In Britain, he tours a hospital where patients marvel at their free care. A patient's husband explains: "It's not America." Humorously, Mr. Moore finds a cashier dispensing money to patients (for transportation). In France, a doctor explains the success of the health-care system with the old Marxist axiom: "You pay according to your means, and you receive according to your needs."
It's compelling material--I know because, born and raised in Canada, I used to believe in government-run health care. Then I was mugged by reality.
Consider, for instance, Mr. Moore's claim that ERs don't overcrowd in Canada. A Canadian government study recently found that only about half of patients are treated in a timely manner, as defined by local medical and hospital associations. "The research merely confirms anecdotal reports of interminable waits," reported a national newspaper. While people in rural areas seem to fare better, Toronto patients receive care in four hours on average; one in 10 patients waits more than a dozen hours.
This problem hit close to home last year: A relative, living in Winnipeg, nearly died of a strangulated bowel while lying on a stretcher for five hours, writhing in pain. To get the needed ultrasound, he was sent by ambulance to another hospital.
In Britain, the Department of Health recently acknowledged that one in eight patients wait more than a year for surgery. Around the time Mr. Moore was putting the finishing touches on his documentary, a hospital in Sutton Coldfield announced its new money-saving linen policy: Housekeeping will no longer change the bed sheets between patients, just turn them over. France's system failed so spectacularly in the summer heat of 2003 that 13,000 people died, largely of dehydration. Hospitals stopped answering the phones and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves.
With such problems, it's not surprising that people are looking for alternatives. Private clinics--some operating in a "gray zone" of the law--are now opening in Canada at a rate of about one per week.
Canadian doctors, once quiet on the issue of private health care, elected Brian Day as president of their national association. Dr. Day is a leading critic of Canadian medicare; he opened a private surgery hospital and then challenged the government to shut it down. "This is a country," Dr. Day said by way of explanation, "in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years."
Market reforms are catching on in Britain, too. For six decades, its socialist Labour Party scoffed at the very idea of private medicine, dismissing it as "Americanization." Today Labour favors privatization, promising to triple the number of private-sector surgical procedures provided within two years. The Labour government aspires to give patients a choice of four providers for surgeries, at least one of them private, and recently considered the contracting out of some primary-care services--perhaps even to American companies.
Other European countries follow this same path. In Sweden, after the latest privatizations, the government will contract out some 80% of Stockholm's primary care and 40% of total health services, including Stockholm's largest hospital. Beginning before the election of the new conservative chancellor, Germany enhanced insurance competition and turned state enterprises over to the private sector (including the majority of public hospitals). Even in Slovakia, a former Marxist country, privatizations are actively debated.
Under the weight of demographic shifts and strained by the limits of command-and-control economics, government-run health systems have turned out to be less than utopian. The stories are the same: dirty hospitals, poor standards and difficulty accessing modern drugs and tests.
Admittedly, the recent market reforms are gradual and controversial. But facts are facts, the reforms are real, and they represent a major trend in health care. What does Mr. Moore's documentary say about that? Nothing.
Dr. Gratzer, a practicing physician licensed in Canada and the U.S. and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is the author of "The Cure: How Capitalism Can Save American Health Care" (Encounter, 2006).
i would believe you if it wasn't for stories like this. as the rest of the world moves towards private healthcare they want americans; which they have no interest in; to have socialized medicine.
BY DAVID GRATZER
Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
TORONTO--"I haven't seen 'Sicko,' " says Avril Allen about the new Michael Moore documentary, which advocates socialized medicine for the United States. The film, which has been widely viewed on the Internet, and which will officially open in the U.S. and Canada on Friday, has been getting rave reviews. But Ms. Allen, a lawyer, has no plans to watch it. She's just too busy preparing to file suit against Ontario's provincial government about its health-care system next month.
Her client, Lindsay McCreith, would have had to wait for four months just to get an MRI, and then months more to see a neurologist for his malignant brain tumor. Instead, frustrated and ill, the retired auto-body shop owner traveled to Buffalo, N.Y., for a lifesaving surgery. Now he's suing for the right to opt out of Canada's government-run health care, which he considers dangerous.
Ms. Allen figures the lawsuit has a fighting chance: In 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that "access to wait lists is not access to health care," striking down key Quebec laws that prohibited private medicine and private health insurance.
In the U.S., 83 House Democrats voted for a bill in 1993 calling for single-payer health care. That idea collapsed with HillaryCare and since then has existed on the fringes of the debate--winning praise from academics and pressure groups, but remaining largely out of the political discussion. Mr. Moore's documentary intends to change that, exposing millions to his argument that American health care is sick and socialized medicine is the cure.
It's not simply that Mr. Moore is wrong. His grand tour of public health care systems misses the big story: While he prescribes socialism, market-oriented reforms are percolating in cities from Stockholm to Saskatoon.
Mr. Moore goes to London, Ontario, where he notes that not a single patient has waited in the hospital emergency room more than 45 minutes. "It's a fabulous system," a woman explains. In Britain, he tours a hospital where patients marvel at their free care. A patient's husband explains: "It's not America." Humorously, Mr. Moore finds a cashier dispensing money to patients (for transportation). In France, a doctor explains the success of the health-care system with the old Marxist axiom: "You pay according to your means, and you receive according to your needs."
It's compelling material--I know because, born and raised in Canada, I used to believe in government-run health care. Then I was mugged by reality.
Consider, for instance, Mr. Moore's claim that ERs don't overcrowd in Canada. A Canadian government study recently found that only about half of patients are treated in a timely manner, as defined by local medical and hospital associations. "The research merely confirms anecdotal reports of interminable waits," reported a national newspaper. While people in rural areas seem to fare better, Toronto patients receive care in four hours on average; one in 10 patients waits more than a dozen hours.
This problem hit close to home last year: A relative, living in Winnipeg, nearly died of a strangulated bowel while lying on a stretcher for five hours, writhing in pain. To get the needed ultrasound, he was sent by ambulance to another hospital.
In Britain, the Department of Health recently acknowledged that one in eight patients wait more than a year for surgery. Around the time Mr. Moore was putting the finishing touches on his documentary, a hospital in Sutton Coldfield announced its new money-saving linen policy: Housekeeping will no longer change the bed sheets between patients, just turn them over. France's system failed so spectacularly in the summer heat of 2003 that 13,000 people died, largely of dehydration. Hospitals stopped answering the phones and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves.
With such problems, it's not surprising that people are looking for alternatives. Private clinics--some operating in a "gray zone" of the law--are now opening in Canada at a rate of about one per week.
Canadian doctors, once quiet on the issue of private health care, elected Brian Day as president of their national association. Dr. Day is a leading critic of Canadian medicare; he opened a private surgery hospital and then challenged the government to shut it down. "This is a country," Dr. Day said by way of explanation, "in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years."
Market reforms are catching on in Britain, too. For six decades, its socialist Labour Party scoffed at the very idea of private medicine, dismissing it as "Americanization." Today Labour favors privatization, promising to triple the number of private-sector surgical procedures provided within two years. The Labour government aspires to give patients a choice of four providers for surgeries, at least one of them private, and recently considered the contracting out of some primary-care services--perhaps even to American companies.
Other European countries follow this same path. In Sweden, after the latest privatizations, the government will contract out some 80% of Stockholm's primary care and 40% of total health services, including Stockholm's largest hospital. Beginning before the election of the new conservative chancellor, Germany enhanced insurance competition and turned state enterprises over to the private sector (including the majority of public hospitals). Even in Slovakia, a former Marxist country, privatizations are actively debated.
Under the weight of demographic shifts and strained by the limits of command-and-control economics, government-run health systems have turned out to be less than utopian. The stories are the same: dirty hospitals, poor standards and difficulty accessing modern drugs and tests.
Admittedly, the recent market reforms are gradual and controversial. But facts are facts, the reforms are real, and they represent a major trend in health care. What does Mr. Moore's documentary say about that? Nothing.
Dr. Gratzer, a practicing physician licensed in Canada and the U.S. and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is the author of "The Cure: How Capitalism Can Save American Health Care" (Encounter, 2006).
How about I share a very personal story from me, because I knew a boogey-man story like this would appear sometime (which is B/S in some regards because I work with a guy who received a knee treatment in less than a month from diagnosis).
My mother in 1999 was having constant headaches/and "blank-outs". After a couple visits to the family doctor she was recommended to a neurologist. He peformed an MRI as well as other tests, she was diagnonsed with brain cancer. Within TWO DAYS she was under radioactive treatment and less than a week the tumour was removed. Guess what it cost zero...nothing. She was back home in less than a month from diagnosis.
My point is that the system is there to help when the need is urgent, the story you posted is a minor problem in the system BUT it does a POOR job reflecting the overall picture. Imagine then the single mom with four kids working at a local cafe developing this problem...she would never be able to repay the debt it would have lead to. But since she cannot get a great job (due to a variety of legit reasons) she should suffer with this burdern...no way in hell she should.
The entire hip/knee joint replacement is just other minor thing that the private sector tries to use to promote their system. I find it funny how all the chronic/terminal diseases/illnesses cases are ignored in stories like the one above when I am a witness to how this system really works and that provides instant treatment to those that need it most.
So it's been mentioned how long some people have to wait for elective surgeries in places with universalized health care. But what about the months made of combined hours waiting for an operator, trying to call health insurance companies for their numerous fuckups?
... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
So it's been mentioned how long some people have to wait for elective surgeries in places with universalized health care. But what about the months made of combined hours waiting for an operator, trying to call health insurance companies for their numerous fuckups?
So it's been mentioned how long some people have to wait for elective surgeries in places with universalized health care. But what about the months made of combined hours waiting for an operator, trying to call health insurance companies for their numerous fuckups?
Nice sig, meme. I thought about putting that in mine.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
How about I share a very personal story from me, because I knew a boogey-man story like this would appear sometime (which is B/S in some regards because I work with a guy who received a knee treatment in less than a month from diagnosis).
My mother in 1999 was having constant headaches/and "blank-outs". After a couple visits to the family doctor she was recommended to a neurologist. He peformed an MRI as well as other tests, she was diagnonsed with brain cancer. Within TWO DAYS she was under radioactive treatment and less than a week the tumour was removed. Guess what it cost zero...nothing. She was back home in less than a month from diagnosis.
My point is that the system is there to help when the need is urgent, the story you posted is a minor problem in the system BUT it does a POOR job reflecting the overall picture. Imagine then the single mom with four kids working at a local cafe developing this problem...she would never be able to repay the debt it would have lead to. But since she cannot get a great job (due to a variety of legit reasons) she should suffer with this burdern...no way in hell she should.
The entire hip/knee joint replacement is just other minor thing that the private sector tries to use to promote their system. I find it funny how all the chronic/terminal diseases/illnesses cases are ignored in stories like the one above when I am a witness to how this system really works and that provides instant treatment to those that need it most.
i accept your experiences as truth and i'm sure in many instances; the system works.
here's my experiences:
i had a brain aneurysm and i was in cicu within 30 minutes. i never once had a problem with my insurance and it paid for all the costs. cost to me- zero. that was in 1986 and since then; my monthly meds are over $3000.00 usd per month. cost to me- zero. i've never waited over 15 minutes to see the doctor of my choice. cost to me- zero. the only paperwork i've had to fill out was new patient forms and an authorization for the doctors or providers to bill the insurance direct. my annual premiums are about $4800 usd; which i deduct from my gross income. if healthcare is to be taken out of federal income taxes; increasing my tax obligation 2% would cost me about $10,000 per year.
so while i agree with you in theory; i'll fight tooth and nail against socialized medicine. it isn't cost effective for me.
i accept your experiences as truth and i'm sure in many instances; the system works.
here's my experiences:
i had a brain aneurysm and i was in cicu within 30 minutes. i never once had a problem with my insurance and it paid for all the costs. cost to me- zero. that was in 1986 and since then; my monthly meds are over $3000.00 usd per month. cost to me- zero. i've never waited over 15 minutes to see the doctor of my choice. cost to me- zero. the only paperwork i've had to fill out was new patient forms and an authorization for the doctors or providers to bill the insurance direct. my annual premiums are about $4800 usd; which i deduct from my gross income. if healthcare is to be taken out of federal income taxes; increasing my tax obligation 2% would cost me about $10,000 per year.
so while i agree with you in theory; i'll fight tooth and nail against socialized medicine. it isn't cost effective for me.
Do you have kids/wife (or does your policy include them in your total you have provided) also does that $10,000 include the subtraction of the $4800/yr.
Okay so now how about the rest of the country that cannot get insurance due to inadequate job opportunities? Should they left out in the cold?
we were poor at the time and she was top student in her class; so i should tell her that because she's white; she has to work harder than anyone else. i should also tell her that the persecution she faced as 1 of 2 whites in a hispanic world is because she was cursed by being born white in america.
she gets even now. she's working in a hospital and documents every time a minority messes up; then promptly fires them. everything comes round.
that's sorta....a negative to way to look at things....while i do agree affirmative action seems to be less than fair at times, firing a minority b/c they mess up? what kind of a mess up are talking about? would she fire someone 'curse w/ being born white in america' for the same thing? if not then i would say that is pretty racist
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
You would have an absolute great system...I would like to see the amount of money spent on the Faux War on Drugs (in today's dollars) and the War in Iraq.
I was disgusted by the war on drugs program getting more money than education that is pathetic.
it is disgusting...the trillions that disappear in 'defense' spending, the billions missing, not to mention wasted in iraq....
it gets more than the departments of interior and agriculture, too, i forgot which other ones....
the book smoke and mirrors: the american war on drugs and the politics of failure was a pretty good book i read a couple years ago
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i accept your experiences as truth and i'm sure in many instances; the system works.
here's my experiences:
i had a brain aneurysm and i was in cicu within 30 minutes. i never once had a problem with my insurance and it paid for all the costs. cost to me- zero. that was in 1986 and since then; my monthly meds are over $3000.00 usd per month. cost to me- zero. i've never waited over 15 minutes to see the doctor of my choice. cost to me- zero. the only paperwork i've had to fill out was new patient forms and an authorization for the doctors or providers to bill the insurance direct. my annual premiums are about $4800 usd; which i deduct from my gross income. if healthcare is to be taken out of federal income taxes; increasing my tax obligation 2% would cost me about $10,000 per year.
so while i agree with you in theory; i'll fight tooth and nail against socialized medicine. it isn't cost effective for me.
Also what % of Americans have access to this type of healthcare???
My point in the universal system is 100% would have the same access....the private system excludes millions upon millions of people....
Comments
i've known many canadians and canadians work. i haven't met a lazy canadian yet. that's where the difference is. for example; when i was a teen; there was a woman we used to buy our pot from. she had one of the nicest houses in a chicago suburb yet was on welfare. she cleared at least $3000 a week; extimated from the amount of product i know she moved. until this kind of abuse is dealt with; america will never have socialized medicine.
You will never get rid of free-loaders.
You see that is the difference that makes the "left" and "right" so different...the left believes that it is okay to take up the free-loaders due to the majority of those needing help actually do need it (view it as a necessary sacrafice) and the right chooses to exclude everyone based on the fact the really lazy people do deserve no help because of their lack of contribution to soceity (therefore the shelfish actions of a few cause everyone to loss the help) And the latter is the view of many Americans and yes that is why it will not work.
we were poor at the time and she was top student in her class; so i should tell her that because she's white; she has to work harder than anyone else. i should also tell her that the persecution she faced as 1 of 2 whites in a hispanic world is because she was cursed by being born white in america.
she gets even now. she's working in a hospital and documents every time a minority messes up; then promptly fires them. everything comes round.
i agree; and the right controls the money. there's a woman at my doctors office that receives social security disability; medicare and medicaid. she works under her husbands social security number. i've reported her twice and an employee has reported her once. yet she's still working there. how do we control the abuse without becoming a police state? and; why should i work if i can get healthcare and welfare free? the choice is work and pay for others; or collect a check every month and spend my time fishing.
But *scratches head* THATS WRONG!
So much for "Be the change that you want to see."
Your post is just wrong on too many levels to even address.
All I can say is- try not to view the World from such a victim mentality, instead put that energy into understanding the plight of others and youll be less frustrated.
Google some pics of whats going on in Darfur right now, and suddenly this horrible, unfair Country you were born into will seem more liveable.
So subtly is the fume of life designed
to clarify the pulse and cloud the mind
and leave us once again, undone.. possessed.
...
Be yourself- those who mind dont matter
and those who matter dont mind.
as a child the only way we ate was to grow and raise our own food. starving is a choice. i recall eating potatoes for a month because my son needed emergency dental work. i remember shooting rabbits and squirrels so my family could have meat. now it's time to help those who helped me.......my family.
I have a childhood sob story as well.
(My parents were former San Fransisco hippies)
Raised in "The OC" but the only crappy house on the street.
My Dad killing and cooking my pet chicken so we could eat.
Walking home from school and seeing my one toy with a $5.00
sign on it in the front yard, again so we could eat that night.
Blah, blah, blah.
Yeah, it sucked, but I was still luckier than 2/3 (or more) of the rest of the kids on this entire planet.
When I became an adult, and saw how the suffering of people in 3rd world countries made my upbringing look like Paris Hiltons, I decided to shut up and do what I could to help the true sufferers in the world.
So subtly is the fume of life designed
to clarify the pulse and cloud the mind
and leave us once again, undone.. possessed.
...
Be yourself- those who mind dont matter
and those who matter dont mind.
exactly! it not being 'free' but paid wit T A X E S is the way they are trying to scare the public into not wanting it...they say it's liberals wanting bigger government...but look at republican inventions; the war on drugs (which gets more money that the dept of education, interior and i think even state! the colossal waste of taxpayer $ in iraq.....cut the war on drugs and you could more than pay for healthcare, it's never proven to work except now you can get pretty much any drug in any high school
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
And El_K enters the room, cantcha just feel it....?;)
So subtly is the fume of life designed
to clarify the pulse and cloud the mind
and leave us once again, undone.. possessed.
...
Be yourself- those who mind dont matter
and those who matter dont mind.
and now you can feel it disipate as i leave for the corporate plantation :(
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
*braces self for energy- drain*
So subtly is the fume of life designed
to clarify the pulse and cloud the mind
and leave us once again, undone.. possessed.
...
Be yourself- those who mind dont matter
and those who matter dont mind.
...and so does he.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Usually intellect in Men turns me on, but in this case...yeah.
So subtly is the fume of life designed
to clarify the pulse and cloud the mind
and leave us once again, undone.. possessed.
...
Be yourself- those who mind dont matter
and those who matter dont mind.
There are more pressing issues in your country that are already leading you to a police state.
Plus I once again think you are inflating the amount of free-loaders that do exist....I do not know of anyone off hand that views "why should I work".
As for paying for others how does that make a difference if your taxes were to be put to healthcare, as I said no more premiums...you are losing nothing through universal healthcare other than that you can get some control back in regards to your health. You do not have an insurance company telling what you can/cannot have done, who you can go see, etc.
I still cannot fathom how so many Americans can be so afraid of big government when the alternate decision is to be dictated by large corporations who will do their best to try to fuck you over in what they provide.
With me I see a doctor (no paper work at all nothing...show a health card) I wait at a 1/2 hour (without an appointment and sometimes longer depending on the day), I see a doctor and leave. No paperwork, no policy numbers, no dicking around on the behalf of the insurance company. The positives of an universal system are astronomical over the private way. Plus it does not matter what you make.
My view of healthcare is ethical, healthcare is a basic need for everyone without (like food, water, and shelter) you will die therefore everyone should be protected from it, which also will include the tiny percentage of those who choose to lead an easy existence. Better to bring them along then cut off the vast more who do work hard at their low paying jobs.
I must stress that it is not perfect, and I understand the flaws trust me but I would not change my system for the one down south.
I agree; it really shows, as a nation, where the priorities lie and certainly is not with the care of it's own people (especially that the war on drugs gets more money than education that is truely tragic)
The war on drugs is such a pile of shit idea that I could go on for days about the absolute stupidity of it.
and i admire you for that. i don't roll that way though.
Seriously...if we could scale down all the government programs that are completely useless, we could have UHC and then some.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
You would have an absolute great system...I would like to see the amount of money spent on the Faux War on Drugs (in today's dollars) and the War in Iraq.
I was disgusted by the war on drugs program getting more money than education that is pathetic.
i would believe you if it wasn't for stories like this. as the rest of the world moves towards private healthcare they want americans; which they have no interest in; to have socialized medicine.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110010266
Who's Really 'Sicko'
In Canada, dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week. Humans can wait two to three years.
BY DAVID GRATZER
Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
TORONTO--"I haven't seen 'Sicko,' " says Avril Allen about the new Michael Moore documentary, which advocates socialized medicine for the United States. The film, which has been widely viewed on the Internet, and which will officially open in the U.S. and Canada on Friday, has been getting rave reviews. But Ms. Allen, a lawyer, has no plans to watch it. She's just too busy preparing to file suit against Ontario's provincial government about its health-care system next month.
Her client, Lindsay McCreith, would have had to wait for four months just to get an MRI, and then months more to see a neurologist for his malignant brain tumor. Instead, frustrated and ill, the retired auto-body shop owner traveled to Buffalo, N.Y., for a lifesaving surgery. Now he's suing for the right to opt out of Canada's government-run health care, which he considers dangerous.
Ms. Allen figures the lawsuit has a fighting chance: In 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that "access to wait lists is not access to health care," striking down key Quebec laws that prohibited private medicine and private health insurance.
In the U.S., 83 House Democrats voted for a bill in 1993 calling for single-payer health care. That idea collapsed with HillaryCare and since then has existed on the fringes of the debate--winning praise from academics and pressure groups, but remaining largely out of the political discussion. Mr. Moore's documentary intends to change that, exposing millions to his argument that American health care is sick and socialized medicine is the cure.
It's not simply that Mr. Moore is wrong. His grand tour of public health care systems misses the big story: While he prescribes socialism, market-oriented reforms are percolating in cities from Stockholm to Saskatoon.
Mr. Moore goes to London, Ontario, where he notes that not a single patient has waited in the hospital emergency room more than 45 minutes. "It's a fabulous system," a woman explains. In Britain, he tours a hospital where patients marvel at their free care. A patient's husband explains: "It's not America." Humorously, Mr. Moore finds a cashier dispensing money to patients (for transportation). In France, a doctor explains the success of the health-care system with the old Marxist axiom: "You pay according to your means, and you receive according to your needs."
It's compelling material--I know because, born and raised in Canada, I used to believe in government-run health care. Then I was mugged by reality.
Consider, for instance, Mr. Moore's claim that ERs don't overcrowd in Canada. A Canadian government study recently found that only about half of patients are treated in a timely manner, as defined by local medical and hospital associations. "The research merely confirms anecdotal reports of interminable waits," reported a national newspaper. While people in rural areas seem to fare better, Toronto patients receive care in four hours on average; one in 10 patients waits more than a dozen hours.
This problem hit close to home last year: A relative, living in Winnipeg, nearly died of a strangulated bowel while lying on a stretcher for five hours, writhing in pain. To get the needed ultrasound, he was sent by ambulance to another hospital.
In Britain, the Department of Health recently acknowledged that one in eight patients wait more than a year for surgery. Around the time Mr. Moore was putting the finishing touches on his documentary, a hospital in Sutton Coldfield announced its new money-saving linen policy: Housekeeping will no longer change the bed sheets between patients, just turn them over. France's system failed so spectacularly in the summer heat of 2003 that 13,000 people died, largely of dehydration. Hospitals stopped answering the phones and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves.
With such problems, it's not surprising that people are looking for alternatives. Private clinics--some operating in a "gray zone" of the law--are now opening in Canada at a rate of about one per week.
Canadian doctors, once quiet on the issue of private health care, elected Brian Day as president of their national association. Dr. Day is a leading critic of Canadian medicare; he opened a private surgery hospital and then challenged the government to shut it down. "This is a country," Dr. Day said by way of explanation, "in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years."
Market reforms are catching on in Britain, too. For six decades, its socialist Labour Party scoffed at the very idea of private medicine, dismissing it as "Americanization." Today Labour favors privatization, promising to triple the number of private-sector surgical procedures provided within two years. The Labour government aspires to give patients a choice of four providers for surgeries, at least one of them private, and recently considered the contracting out of some primary-care services--perhaps even to American companies.
Other European countries follow this same path. In Sweden, after the latest privatizations, the government will contract out some 80% of Stockholm's primary care and 40% of total health services, including Stockholm's largest hospital. Beginning before the election of the new conservative chancellor, Germany enhanced insurance competition and turned state enterprises over to the private sector (including the majority of public hospitals). Even in Slovakia, a former Marxist country, privatizations are actively debated.
Under the weight of demographic shifts and strained by the limits of command-and-control economics, government-run health systems have turned out to be less than utopian. The stories are the same: dirty hospitals, poor standards and difficulty accessing modern drugs and tests.
Admittedly, the recent market reforms are gradual and controversial. But facts are facts, the reforms are real, and they represent a major trend in health care. What does Mr. Moore's documentary say about that? Nothing.
Dr. Gratzer, a practicing physician licensed in Canada and the U.S. and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is the author of "The Cure: How Capitalism Can Save American Health Care" (Encounter, 2006).
How about I share a very personal story from me, because I knew a boogey-man story like this would appear sometime (which is B/S in some regards because I work with a guy who received a knee treatment in less than a month from diagnosis).
My mother in 1999 was having constant headaches/and "blank-outs". After a couple visits to the family doctor she was recommended to a neurologist. He peformed an MRI as well as other tests, she was diagnonsed with brain cancer. Within TWO DAYS she was under radioactive treatment and less than a week the tumour was removed. Guess what it cost zero...nothing. She was back home in less than a month from diagnosis.
My point is that the system is there to help when the need is urgent, the story you posted is a minor problem in the system BUT it does a POOR job reflecting the overall picture. Imagine then the single mom with four kids working at a local cafe developing this problem...she would never be able to repay the debt it would have lead to. But since she cannot get a great job (due to a variety of legit reasons) she should suffer with this burdern...no way in hell she should.
The entire hip/knee joint replacement is just other minor thing that the private sector tries to use to promote their system. I find it funny how all the chronic/terminal diseases/illnesses cases are ignored in stories like the one above when I am a witness to how this system really works and that provides instant treatment to those that need it most.
Fuck-ups' = The run around
Nice sig, meme. I thought about putting that in mine.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i accept your experiences as truth and i'm sure in many instances; the system works.
here's my experiences:
i had a brain aneurysm and i was in cicu within 30 minutes. i never once had a problem with my insurance and it paid for all the costs. cost to me- zero. that was in 1986 and since then; my monthly meds are over $3000.00 usd per month. cost to me- zero. i've never waited over 15 minutes to see the doctor of my choice. cost to me- zero. the only paperwork i've had to fill out was new patient forms and an authorization for the doctors or providers to bill the insurance direct. my annual premiums are about $4800 usd; which i deduct from my gross income. if healthcare is to be taken out of federal income taxes; increasing my tax obligation 2% would cost me about $10,000 per year.
so while i agree with you in theory; i'll fight tooth and nail against socialized medicine. it isn't cost effective for me.
Are you Ted Kazinski (sp) ?
So subtly is the fume of life designed
to clarify the pulse and cloud the mind
and leave us once again, undone.. possessed.
...
Be yourself- those who mind dont matter
and those who matter dont mind.
Do you have kids/wife (or does your policy include them in your total you have provided) also does that $10,000 include the subtraction of the $4800/yr.
Okay so now how about the rest of the country that cannot get insurance due to inadequate job opportunities? Should they left out in the cold?
that's sorta....a negative to way to look at things....while i do agree affirmative action seems to be less than fair at times, firing a minority b/c they mess up? what kind of a mess up are talking about? would she fire someone 'curse w/ being born white in america' for the same thing? if not then i would say that is pretty racist
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
it is disgusting...the trillions that disappear in 'defense' spending, the billions missing, not to mention wasted in iraq....
here's a good article on how shady they have become w/ the funding for the war on drugs...it's from a few years ago but worth the short read
http://changetheclimate.org/news/hidden_budget.php
it gets more than the departments of interior and agriculture, too, i forgot which other ones....
the book smoke and mirrors: the american war on drugs and the politics of failure was a pretty good book i read a couple years ago
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Damn work banned the site citing marijuana & drugs...will have to check this out from home. But should be a good read.
Also what % of Americans have access to this type of healthcare???
My point in the universal system is 100% would have the same access....the private system excludes millions upon millions of people....