Stones vs. Zeppelin

parel jam

Todd76 wrote:

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have EVER heard.....you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

For No One, Eleanor Rigby, Norweigan Wood, In My Life, He Comes The Sun, Golden Slumbers, Blackbird, Long Long Long, Strawberry Fields Forever, Lucy In The Sky, A Day In The Life, Because, Across The Universe, Yesterday, You've Got To Hide Your Love Away, Within You Without You, Tomorrow Never Knows, Revolution 1, Something, I Will etc etc etc etc

Nobody who has ever heard any of these songs would ever make such an insane statement

I think we can better start a Stones Vs. Beatles thread....I prefer the first...don't like the Beatles that much...especially not their first works...

FinsburyParkCarrots

lucylespian wrote:

Page is the greatest !! How is "Hats off to Roy HArper" for a lesson in acoustic power playing. Flogs the "nice" fingerpicking in "Blackbird", which lets face it, is so beginnerish.

This is what bores me rigid about so many Zep fans. They think more sophisticated musical technique makes for better art. Well then, shouldn't they be championing Yes or Sky, too? Really, the only sort of forum where you'd find Zep fans in such overwhelming abundance is where the preference is for heavy rock. Most boards would dismiss much Zep as self indulgent, overblown, seventies stadium rock (whilst forgiving the Stones for being the same, albeit with a sense of humour): they'd vote for Slade or Marc Bolan as the best and most beneficially influential of early seventies music, rather than Zep, and they'd be right. Without Slade or Marc Bolan, there'd be no punk, no Nirvana. Without Zep, there'd be no, er, Kiss, no, er, Guns and bloody Roses.

Without The Beatles, there'd be nobody.

And I'd rather listen to Roy Harper, than "Hats off to Harper."

attics26

back in the early 70s got 3rd row seats for Zep - never wanted to see Stones but when they get played on the radio always end up singing along - when Zep got overblown they went downhill rapidly so my vote goes

1 early zep
2 Mick Taylor stones
3 early stones
then big gap to
4 later stones
5 later zep

and got to agree with over rated beatles
to me in the sixties they were just a pop band
and had next to no effect on me unlike who yardbirds and the like
but as others have said its each to his/her own....thankfully otherwise would be real boring....now this pearl jam are they any good do you reckon ?????

FinsburyParkCarrots

attics26 wrote:

now this pearl jam are they any good do you reckon ?????

Yep, they're good. So much more, than just a "heavy rock" band.

attics26

shame they're americans - who can one compare them to? the monkees or new kids round the bend (or whatever it was)

FinsburyParkCarrots

attics26 wrote:

shame they're americans - who can one compare them to? the monkees or new kids round the bend (or whatever it was)

Dumpy's Rusty Nuts?

attics26

used to have their album wonder where it went - atleast we're safe here in other music cos reading other threads these PJ fans dont seem to like anyone else much

lucylespian

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

This is what bores me rigid about so many Zep fans. They think more sophisticated musical technique makes for better art. Well then, shouldn't they be championing Yes or Sky, too? Really, the only sort of forum where you'd find Zep fans in such overwhelming abundance is where the preference is for heavy rock. Most boards would dismiss much Zep as self indulgent, overblown, seventies stadium rock (whilst forgiving the Stones for being the same, albeit with a sense of humour): they'd vote for Slade or Marc Bolan as the best and most beneficially influential of early seventies music, rather than Zep, and they'd be right. Without Slade or Marc Bolan, there'd be no punk, no Nirvana. Without Zep, there'd be no, er, Kiss, no, er, Guns and bloody Roses.

Without The Beatles, there'd be nobody.

And I'd rather listen to Roy Harper, than "Hats off to Harper."

Don't you think that Kurt Cobain worked on his technique ? Just because it sounded de-constructed doesn't mean he was sloppy, otherwise he would have had no consistency. All the great players have great technique.
I dislike the idea that a lack of technique is necessary for great art. That's just lazy and sure don't last.
That whole "bloated, overblown, self-indulgent" thing is just cliched rubbish.
What I love about "Hats Off" is the unrestained energy ,as well as the explosive power of the playing. You can hear the strings vibrating against the body of the guitar. And it was just done in two impromptu takes, so if there is just great technique, then Pagey is a superhero.
Roy Harper was a friend of theirs, and the song is a nod of respect to his unrecognised talent.
As for the Beatles, haven't you heard the story about Bob Dylan bagging Lennon for writing peurile rubbish ??
Haven't heard of Pearl Jam. Who are they?

FinsburyParkCarrots

lucylespian wrote:

Don't you think that Kurt Cobain worked on his technique ? Just because it sounded de-constructed doesn't mean he was sloppy, otherwise he would have had no consistency. All the great players have great technique.

I didn't say he didn't have some degree of technique. However, he used his musicianship as a means to an expressive, creative end, and not an end in itself, to masturbate a fretboard pointlessly.

lucylespian wrote:

I dislike the idea that a lack of technique is necessary for great art. That's just lazy and sure don't last.

I never said it did. But there's a difference between virtuosos, and artists. Do you know what it is? It's called having something to say about the world around you.

lucylespian wrote:

That whole "bloated, overblown, self-indulgent" thing is just cliched rubbish.

You mean Zep weren't overblown or self-indulgent? I thought that was the point of them!

lucylespian wrote:

What I love about "Hats Off" is the unrestained energy ,as well as the explosive power of the playing. You can hear the strings vibrating against the body of the guitar. And it was just done in two impromptu takes, so if there is just great technique, then Pagey is a superhero.

Listen to Davey Graham or Bert Jansch if you want spontaneity.

lucylespian wrote:

Roy Harper was a friend of theirs, and the song is a nod of respect to his unrecognised talent.

Everyone and their pet dog knows that.

lucylespian wrote:

As for the Beatles, haven't you heard the story about Bob Dylan bagging Lennon for writing peurile rubbish ??

He was jealous. Don't forget, Dylan went electric. And while Lennon was writing Strawberry Fields Forever, Dylan was writing Quinn The Eskimo.

lucylespian

I like fretboard masturbation !!
Dylan went electric cause he could, just cause he started acoustic doesn't mean he was bound to it.
Funny thing, I've noticed that if someone doesn't like a band or player who is good, they always attack their "virtuosity" as an unforgivable flaw.
Fucked if I know why, esp on a PJ board, cause they are good, and do more than a little fretboard masturbation themselves, and I would much rather listen to good musos than shit ones !!

FinsburyParkCarrots

lucylespian wrote:

I like fretboard masturbation !!
Dylan went electric cause he could, just cause he started acoustic doesn't mean he was bound to it.
Funny thing, I've noticed that if someone doesn't like a band or player who is good, they always attack their "virtuosity" as an unforgivable flaw.
Fucked if I know why, esp on a PJ board, cause they are good, and do more than a little fretboard masturbation themselves, and I would much rather listen to good musos than shit ones !!

Not so. I'm a huge Hendrix fan. But I hate Steve Vai. Why? Hendrix's Machine Gun and Star Spangled Banner were original, artistic attempts to describe the world as it was. What's Vai ever said, apart from tweedle-tweedle-tweedle?

Same with jazz. I love Mingus's "Fables of Faubus": a virtuosic musical expression of the time, that had a lot to say about racial tensions and politics. But I can't stand Kenny G.

I feel The Rolling Stones defined and described their time. Zep not so much. Certainly not in the UK, anyway.

dyaogirl

I've seen them both live...... at least on a bad night Keith stayed onstage, Jimmy, fell off. Zep's concert was miserable and left me extremely disappointed..

FinsburyParkCarrots

dyaogirl wrote:

I've seen them both live...... at least on a bad night Keith stayed onstage, Jimmy, fell off. Zep's concert was miserable and left me extremely disappointed..

Succinct!

lucylespian

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Not so. I'm a huge Hendrix fan. But I hate Steve Vai. Why? Hendrix's Machine Gun and Star Spangled Banner were original, artistic attempts to describe the world as it was. What's Vai ever said, apart from tweedle-tweedle-tweedle?

Same with jazz. I love Mingus's "Fables of Faubus": a virtuosic musical expression of the time, that had a lot to say about racial tensions and politics. But I can't stand Kenny G.

I feel The Rolling Stones defined and described their time. Zep not so much. Certainly not in the UK, anyway.

Now we're getting somwhere.
So how about a song like "Since I Been Loving You" ? Is that meaningful and does the guitar say something about teh emotion he is feeling, or is it just tweedle tweedle ??

FinsburyParkCarrots

lucylespian wrote:

Now we're getting somwhere.
So how about a song like "Since I Been Loving You" ? Is that meaningful and does the guitar say something about teh emotion he is feeling, or is it just tweedle tweedle ??

It's crap. Give me Midnight Rambler anyday.


By the way, I started out playing, as a manic shredder. Then I grew up, and went minimalist.

surferdude

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

It's crap. Give me Midnight Rambler anyday.


By the way, I started out playing, as a manic shredder. Then I grew up, and went minimalist.

Then you must enjoy "Tea For One" and most of Led Zeppelin III.

FinsburyParkCarrots

III is my favourite Zep album.

parel jam

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

III is my favourite Zep album.

My fav song is When the Levee Breaks - what a classic!!

threecrookedhearts6

parel jam wrote:

My fav song is When the Levee Breaks - what a classic!!

thats my favourite too...in terms of musical talent, i say Zeppelin trumps the Stones but the Stones are defenitely a more productive commodity...$$$

"cryin won't help ya, prayin won't do ya no good"

hendrix78

Zeppelin was true art. They combined an incredibly eclectic range of influences (blues, r&b, early rock n roll, middle eastern and indian music, folk, country, etc) to create a transportative sound that fully absorbs the listener. They were musical explorers who were never content with repeating themselves. As much as I love the Stones, they aren't particularly diverse. To dismiss Zeppelin as "just a heavy rock band" just shows musical ignorance, especially considering a good portion of their catalogue isn't very heavy at all. Songs like Dyer Maker are rhythmically and melodically exciting without relying on the heaviness of something like Whole Lotta Love.

I love T. Rex too, but to claim they made a more important lasting contribution to music than Zeppelin is ridiculous. Page's name belongs right next to Hendrix in that everyone who has picked up a guitar with the intent to learn to do more than play power chords has drawn influence from things he pioneered. Without Zeppelin, there would be no Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Smashing Pumpkins, Jane's Addiction, and many others. The stamp they left on rock music can't be overstated.

p.s. - a true artist knows that minimalism in and of itself doesn't make better music. Some songs need minimalism, some need a virtuoso tearing up the fretboard ala Jimmy Page. The difference between fretbaord masturbation and virtuosic art is in the emotion behind the playing and that is something that was never lacking in Page's best work with Zeppelin. I'd say the only time you could ever argue that Page lacked the artistic fire was in the late 70's when he was too whacked out on heroin. His playing when I saw him on the Plant Page reunion tour in the late 90's had all the fire and drive of the early Zeppelin years shown in the DVD anthology. Page knew how to use minimalism too. There are plenty of examples of this on Led Zeppelin III, Houses of the Holy, and In Through The Out Door.