Stones vs. Zeppelin

FinsburyParkCarrots

hendrix78 wrote:

I love T. Rex too, but to claim they made a more important lasting contribution to music than Zeppelin is ridiculous.

Depends who you ask. A lot of people see a much more rebellious, rock and roll nature in the three minute pop song of the sixties and early seventies. Here's something that's presumably as commercial as it gets, and yet it subverts the teenybopper medium with feats of daring. (Pete Townshend's greatest gift, for me, out of all his great gifts, was his amazing ability to write three minute rock operas, like "I'm a Boy".) I think T Rex had an incalculable influence on British music, from glam to punk and new wave, through all kinds of alternative music. Without Bolan, there'd have been no Bowie, although the two were contemporaries. Zep were much more album/stadium orientated, and influenced the whole white metal scene that was consolidated in the spoof band, Spinal Tap. Their influence was ultimately deleterious: people can take the spirit of T Rex, and even rip off their riffs, but still sound fresh. But if you copy Zep, you sound a bit like a dinosaur. (Maybe this is why Given To Fly is not my favourite PJ track. )

Hendrix didn't think much of Zep, apparently. He preferred Sly Stone.

surferdude

Zeppelin was the blueprint for punk. They were Do It Yourself long before the DIY ethos was branded and co-opted as punk. Communications Breakdown is a pure punk song, short, succinct and full of fury. Not caring about the mainstream media was a other punk attitude that Zeppelin if not pioneered definitely adopted and made famous long before punk came along.

FinsburyParkCarrots

surferdude wrote:

Zeppelin was the blueprint for punk. They were Do It Yourself long before the DIY ethos was branded and co-opted as punk. Communications Breakdown is a pure punk song, short, succinct and full of fury. Not caring about the mainstream media was a other punk attitude that Zeppelin if not pioneered definitely adopted and made famous long before punk came along.

Nah, Kevin Coyne was proto-Punk. He was on John Peel's Dandelion records at first, as was Bolan. That was DIY!

Led Zep I was released on Atlantic!

surferdude

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Nah, Kevin Coyne was proto-Punk. He was on John Peel's Dandelion records at first, as was Bolan. That was DIY!

Led Zep I was released on Atlantic!

They owned their own masters, they self produced and the background on the Atlantic deal is that it was basically just a distribution deal. Atlantic had zero say on the recorded material, single selection or lack of single selection, and Peter Grant pretty much ran the promotions. The only thing I could ever think that punks had against Led Zeppelin was that Zeppelin could all play their instruments well. The supposed hate for Zeppelin was more marketing and branding of punk than reality based. And realistically punk was initially a marketing venture.

Pearl Jam and toast

Todd76 wrote:

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have EVER heard.....you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

For No One, Eleanor Rigby, Norweigan Wood, In My Life, He Comes The Sun, Golden Slumbers, Blackbird, Long Long Long, Strawberry Fields Forever, Lucy In The Sky, A Day In The Life, Because, Across The Universe, Yesterday, You've Got To Hide Your Love Away, Within You Without You, Tomorrow Never Knows, Revolution 1, Something, I Will etc etc etc etc

Nobody who has ever heard any of these songs would ever make such an insane statement

Anyone who says that kind of thing about the Beatles heard Hard Day's Night and wrote that off as the cream of the crop.

The Beatles were boring until they started doing drugs in the mid sixties.

Sgt Peppers, Abbey Road, The White Album...

Incredible!

hendrix78

Zep's influence extends far beyond white metal bands. I hear some Jimmy Page in the leads of Dr. Know of the Bad Brains, and they're as punk as it gets. Even Hip Hop artists such as Public Enemy and Cypress Hill have cited Zeppelin as an influence.

You can make a Spinal Tap comparison to just about any band. Even the Beatles had the Rutles. It would be pretty easy to parody Marc Bolan fey folk side as well, if one was so inclined.

For me, it doesn't matter if a song is three minutes, or fifteen. Either can be equally compelling if done right. That's the beauty of music, it can be anything and should have no limits or rules forced upon it.

If you copy T. Rex, you will sound like just as much a dinosaur as if you copy Zeppelin. It's all about taking the influence and doing something new with it. For bands influenced by Zeppelin that are taking that influence in different directions, check out the Mars Volta, Comets on Fire, and Dead Meadow.

lucylespian

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

Anyone who says that kind of thing about the Beatles heard Hard Day's Night and wrote that off as the cream of the crop.

The Beatles were boring until they started doing drugs in the mid sixties.

Sgt Peppers, Abbey Road, The White Album...

Incredible!

Nah, I think it was "hey jude, you make me sad" that put me off, plus mc cartneys solo stuff was just plain silly.

FinsburyParkCarrots

lucylespian wrote:

Nah, I think it was "hey jude, you make me sad" that put me off, plus mc cartneys solo stuff was just plain silly.

True, I can't recall Page doing anything as bad as The Frog Chorus. But I think you'll find, you're misquoting the lyrics of Hey Jude, there. I always thought that song just stayed on the right side of oversentimentality, though it's slushy enough in places. I certainly prefer it to the PROFUNDITY (cue neon lights), of Stairway.

lucylespian

You know guys, I'm really open to all of these artists. When I champion ZEp, I'm not putting anyone else down.
Zeppelin started in the same clubs as the STnes, Hendrix, Clapton etc, and just did stadiums casue that's how many people turned up.
The early footage at Albert Hall is the total opposite of "overblown stadium rock", Page in a cute sweater vest shuffling around in his slippers, but PLAYING !!!
Sure they didn't elaese songl;es to promote their albums, or do television, but the reasons for that are well documented, and quite valid.
Personally I love album music over singles and hope that the download revolution doesn't kill them off. Nearlt all my favourite music is obscure and buried in an album somewhere.
Thank you Hendrix78 for saying what I was thinking but couldn't be bothered to argue !!
I used to be a huge STones fan, and still like Tattoo You, Sticky Fingers adn get your Ya ya's out, but am down oon Richards, as I have said, since I read he tried to sabotage Hendrix' career. Very uncool !!!
Plus, a guy who takes a string off his guitar cause it gets in the way does not qualify as guitar god to me !!
GIven to Fly is one of my favourites !!

FinsburyParkCarrots

surferdude wrote:

They owned their own masters, they self produced and the background on the Atlantic deal is that it was basically just a distribution deal. Atlantic had zero say on the recorded material, single selection or lack of single selection, and Peter Grant pretty much ran the promotions. The only thing I could ever think that punks had against Led Zeppelin was that Zeppelin could all play their instruments well. The supposed hate for Zeppelin was more marketing and branding of punk than reality based. And realistically punk was initially a marketing venture.

I don't know. I know a lot of punks who hate Zep sincerely, while knowing their own minds about it... I think they don't like the business of Zep taking themselves too seriously, with all this Crowley bollocks, and the excessively long drum solos (the complaint against which, isn't a matter of disliking Bonzo's musicianship, as much as seeing it as wasteful, look-how-big-my-todger-is showmanship).

Now I've already say I like Zep. Just not in the same way I like a lot of other artists and bands.

lucylespian

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

True, I can't recall Page doing anything as bad as The Frog Chorus. But I think you'll find, you're misquoting the lyrics of Hey Jude, there. I always thought that song just stayed on the right side of oversentimentality, though it's slushy enough in places. I certainly prefer it to the PROFUNDITY (cue neon lights), of Stairway.

Almost certainly misquoting as speaking from a position of could never stand to listen to them at all.

Todd76

lucylespian wrote:

Almost certainly misquoting as speaking from a position of could never stand to listen to them at all.

Well therein lies the problem - I figured the only way you could dismiss such an amazing band is by never bothering to listen to them at all

FinsburyParkCarrots

hendrix78 wrote:

Zep's influence extends far beyond white metal bands. I hear some Jimmy Page in the leads of Dr. Know of the Bad Brains, and they're as punk as it gets. Even Hip Hop artists such as Public Enemy and Cypress Hill have cited Zeppelin as an influence.

You can make a Spinal Tap comparison to just about any band. Even the Beatles had the Rutles. It would be pretty easy to parody Marc Bolan fey folk side as well, if one was so inclined.

For me, it doesn't matter if a song is three minutes, or fifteen. Either can be equally compelling if done right. That's the beauty of music, it can be anything and should have no limits or rules forced upon it.

If you copy T. Rex, you will sound like just as much a dinosaur as if you copy Zeppelin. It's all about taking the influence and doing something new with it. For bands influenced by Zeppelin that are taking that influence in different directions, check out the Mars Volta, Comets on Fire, and Dead Meadow.

I take your points, but I do hear a lot more than Zep, in Mars Volta. I hear Larry Young, Miles Davis, and a lot of Hawkwindy space-rock. It's when they get a bit more formulaic and Zeppy, that they lose their wow factor, for me.

I think, love them or hate them, Oasis and U2 dine out on the most blatant steals from Marc Bolan's Electric Warrior-era riffs. They can sound very stale, yes, but then think of a lot of electro-pop. Not my thing, but I have to say that often, it's straightforward Bolan-boogie, done on a synth and samplers rather than guitar. Zep did draw on many disparate styles, but apart from the odd Page/Puff Daddy thang, do you hear much Zep in "good pop", as opposed to rock? I can hear Bolan in all those NME bands, too. Not my thing, again, but his music is at the backbone of so much new music in different styles. Same with Slade! Those feckas rocked!

FinsburyParkCarrots

lucylespian wrote:

Almost certainly misquoting as speaking from a position of could never stand to listen to them at all.

Not even this one?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5966006360709036979&q=strawberry+fields+forever

lucylespian

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Not even this one?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5966006360709036979&q=strawberry+fields+forever

Didn't say I hadn't heard any, just that I can't stand to actually listen to it.
I think you had to be there for the Beatles.
I live in Australia so that whole anti-conservative/Thatcher punk thing was always pretty irrelevant to us, though the occasional re-invention means more, eg American Idiot.
I wasn't born til 1964, so was more into rock than pop.
And anyway , does music always have to say something meaningful ?
Steve Vai is like a wild reckless car ride on a hot summer night, exhilarating and fun, probably pointless, but a hoot to do anyway.
He certainly doesn't take himself too seriously or he wouldn't wear the goofy hats. There is enough misery and gloom out there without imbuing all our music with it.
I have my G3 ticket clutched in my grimy little hand, front row, woo hoo, might even wear a funny hat !!!
One of Australia's biggest bands ever was Cold Chisel, and thet sure as shit wouldn't have existed if not for Zep !!

FinsburyParkCarrots

lucylespian wrote:

Didn't say I hadn't heard any, just that I can't stand to actually listen to it.
I think you had to be there for the Beatles.
I live in Australia so that whole anti-conservative/Thatcher punk thing was always pretty irrelevant to us, though the occasional re-invention means more, eg American Idiot.
I wasn't born til 1964, so was more into rock than pop.
And anyway , does music always have to say something meaningful ?
Steve Vai is like a wild reckless car ride on a hot summer night, exhilarating and fun, probably pointless, but a hoot to do anyway.
He certainly doesn't take himself too seriously or he wouldn't wear the goofy hats. There is enough misery and gloom out there without imbuing all our music with it.
I have my G3 ticket clutched in my grimy little hand, front row, woo hoo, might even wear a funny hat !!!
One of Australia's biggest bands ever was Cold Chisel, and thet sure as shit wouldn't have existed if not for Zep !!

I wasn't born until 1972, but that still makes me officially on old fart, here.

I see Lennon as Irish, really. I have family connections to him, albeit distant ones, so I've reason to think that.

I didn't say Vai takes himself too seriously, but I did say he only says tweedly-tweedly-tweedly. He is a fretwanker though, isn't he? Have you heard him with Zappa? Zappa links whole tone scales to harmonic and melodic minors, and a bit of aeolian modal playing, all superimposed on the same pedal tone chord (playing with ambiguities between subdominants and dominants) ... and then Vai comes in with his stunt guitar, and just bombs up and down, playing a whole tone scale, quickly repeating himself.

If you want ridiculous virtuosity that is somehow really punk, watch this!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=295J6IvQMds

mca47

I like the Stones, but they aren't anywhere near the level of Zep. IMO.

FinsburyParkCarrots

mca47 wrote:

I like the Stones, but they aren't anywhere near the level of Zep. IMO.

What is this "level" I keep hearing about?

lucylespian

Funny how things happen, there is a big spaecial on teh beatles on telly at the moment, and I am actually watching to edumakate myself a bit. They were funny bastards in teh beginning, flip sense of humour a lot like mine!!
The humourless Yanks kind of hammered that out of them though.
No expert on Vai really, have a G3 DVD from about 10yr ago, Satriani is much better on that !!
The level, old carrot, was set at ten by Zep !! It's the band that everyone gets measured against, doncha know !!
Actually, you only get to be compared to Zep if you are really fucking good. Even to be compared is a priveleged honour !!

ladygooddiva

merlyn wrote:

zeppelin, these guys are musical gods!!!! you're right man!!!:)

can i sign this??