People seem to want the posters to say “Pearl Jam” clearly, and if it’s difficult to tell what band it’s for, they seem to like it less.
At the same time, Brad’s Pearl Jam 2006 Gorge poster is, in my opinion, one of the greatest, most creative gig posters ever created. The “Pearl Jam” in the cliffs isn’t obvious until it is, and then you can’t unsee it. Love that poster.
My Pearl Jam Road: 10/22/90 Seattle | 12/22/90 Seattle, Moore Theater | 9/29/92 Seattle, Magnusson Park, Drop in the Park | 9/5/93 The Gorge, with Neil Young and Blind Melon | 7/20/06 Portland, Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall with Sleater-Kinney | 7/22/06 The Gorge, 10/21/06 Mountain View, Shoreline Ampitheatre, Bridge School Benefit | 9/21/09 Seattle | 9/22/09 Seattle | 9/26/09 Portland, OR | 7/14/2011 Eddie Vedder, Portland, OR | 11/29/13 Portland, OR
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Brad-
I have several of your signed prints on my wall and they will never be sold.
I am about as far from a "crypto bro" as there is out there, but one aspect of that digital art world that I find pretty interesting is the artist often gets a built in royalty any time a piece of their digital art on the blockchain is bought or sold. Whenever you hear about these picture of apes or whatever being sold for a ridiculous amount of money, it is hardwired in to the smart contract that the creator of it gets anywhere from 5-10% (whatever they set it up at when creating it) of the transaction automatically moved to their linked crypto wallet without having to depend on any sort of human intervention, etc. It just happens instantly.
Have you ever considered doing NFT's of your work? I don't play in that world, I am just curious.
The reality: NFT’s are poison for the planet.
My Pearl Jam Road: 10/22/90 Seattle | 12/22/90 Seattle, Moore Theater | 9/29/92 Seattle, Magnusson Park, Drop in the Park | 9/5/93 The Gorge, with Neil Young and Blind Melon | 7/20/06 Portland, Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall with Sleater-Kinney | 7/22/06 The Gorge, 10/21/06 Mountain View, Shoreline Ampitheatre, Bridge School Benefit | 9/21/09 Seattle | 9/22/09 Seattle | 9/26/09 Portland, OR | 7/14/2011 Eddie Vedder, Portland, OR | 11/29/13 Portland, OR
I received my Buhler Seattle AP today in a crushed tube which resulted in creases on the poster. I emailed the artist and waiting to hear back. Did anybody else experience this with their Buhler AP? If so, any response from the artist? Seems like a thin/flimsy tube it was shipped in, so wouldn't be surprised if others arrived damaged. Cheers!
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Brad-
I have several of your signed prints on my wall and they will never be sold.
I am about as far from a "crypto bro" as there is out there, but one aspect of that digital art world that I find pretty interesting is the artist often gets a built in royalty any time a piece of their digital art on the blockchain is bought or sold. Whenever you hear about these picture of apes or whatever being sold for a ridiculous amount of money, it is hardwired in to the smart contract that the creator of it gets anywhere from 5-10% (whatever they set it up at when creating it) of the transaction automatically moved to their linked crypto wallet without having to depend on any sort of human intervention, etc. It just happens instantly.
Have you ever considered doing NFT's of your work? I don't play in that world, I am just curious.
The reality: NFT’s are poison for the planet.
I am not a fan either, but I've wanted to hear an established artist's opinion on it. I am a fan of the technology that ensures ongoing income for the artist though.
the supply and demand aspect.... you'll never know the full demand... you could say the band could take pre orders but then what about all the people who aren't part of the ten club, who just show up to the concert and walk past the merch tables and go "on hey cool poster, I am going to buy one"... so if you only print enough for those who pre ordered them, the band misses out on possible sales from any one who didn't pre order and the fan who didn't know they had to pre order one misses out... and the pre order would most likely be done without getting to see the poster first hand, so if you pre-ordered and got a design you truly did not like, you'd be mad you paid for it.
if you print say 10,000... what if the design doesn't resonate with people and they don't sell well, then you are stuck with and paid for posters you can't sell. There's stacks of old posters that didn't sell well at the ten club warehouse, same for all bands who make posters as merch... most certainly stacks of old posters that didn't sell well in phish's warehouse or dmb's warehouse
if you charge more, you might price out flippers but then you also price out everyone else... I know this first hand as this is what I did with the 2005 South America poster... I made them $300 to deter flippers, and I deterred regular people too.. for years... then I had posters that were not selling and later I'd drop the price of that poster twice throughout the years just to try and get them out of my flat files.
the posters are a crap shoot... you never know exactly how they will sell... I was super stoked on my 3 2022 poster set, very proud of the illustrations and couldn't wait for the fans to see them... I still have a stack of Werchter and Amsterdam posters... I've had PJ posters not sell out before, but not to the level those two posters did not sell out. You just never know... so how do you plan in advance for an unknown outcome? Jeff is an artist and likes all kinds of different art and artists, he might love what an artist submits for their design and think it is killer, doesn't mean you all will...
art is subjective right... we all have our own tastes... so you just don't know what the demand will be... you don't know who will impulsively buy the poster upon walking past it at the show.
Every pj poster sale I am never entirely sure how it will go... I see these other new artists come in and charge more and they sell all their prints, so I think I should raise my prices... I raise a price of a poster and it doesn't sell as well... so next sale I think "I over charged and left money on the table", so the sale after that one I undercharge and it sells out immediately and I think "I charged too little and left money on the table"... the napa poster for example, other artists were charging $120.. I charged $100... sold out in a minute...and I thought I shoulda sold them for $120.. I could have charged $150 and I am pretty sure they would still have sold out just as quick... if I had charged $150 that would have made me 10k more (before taxes) and as a feast or famine starving artist that's a lot to leave on the table and to not have to pay my mortgage and buy food and pay bills for a few more months... point being every pj poster I do I am never 100% sure how you all will respond... I have designs I have done for pj and other bands that I think are the best thing I have ever done... and they don't sell well... sometimes I think i have my finger on the pulse of the pj poster fan / collector community and sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong....
it's all a crap shoot... unless the design is right out the gate stunning and mind blowing and done by a big name artist, you just don't know how people are going to react
as I mentioned, there is no solution, solutions have been tried and people get around the solutions... it's greed and making a quick buck, so until we fix that aspect of human nature, it's never going away.
Thank you for the response & the insight on this. Fascinating, though understandable, art being what it is, that it is such a crap shoot.
While I have never and would never flipped merch or invested in art with the objective of making a profit, I have a hard time vilifying those who do (as long as they are operating within the law, paying taxes on their profits, and following the same rules as everyone else). Someone who can identify an undervalued company/stock is a genius and as a result turn a profit is a smart investor, but someone who does the same with art is a villain? Doesn’t sit right with me. I think the emotional nature of art & fandom and the relationship to the music make this very complicated (everyone - for the most part - can access PJ’s music (recorded anyway) as equals, but we can’t all have posters…how is that fair?? (rhetorical question to be clear))
agreed, no law is being broken... and once something is your's in your possession that you paid for with your money you are free to do with it however you want. I have no issues with any person reselling anything they own... the issue is with people who are specifically buying something with no intention of ever having it or wanting to own it but they use it to take advantage of people they know just want the same thing... again it's not illegal, there's no crime... it just sucks and is a gross aspect of human nature... it'd be akin to someone going to a food bank and taking more then they need with the idea they can resell that food at a profit to people who couldn't get the food because that person took more then their share.. which would also not be a crime but is just shitty selfish human greed.. and therein lies the sheen of bad form
Your stock analogy I don't think is a fair comparison, and I am no stock trader, but as far as I am aware you purchasing a stock is not making it so someone else cannot purchase the same stock, and then you are not reselling that stock to the person who was unable to get it.
A more accurate analogy to art collecting and stock trading would be investing in an undervalued company/stock (you don't invest in the undervalued company then sell it right away, you have to wait for the undervalued company to grow) and sitting on it for years until a decade or three later that stock has become more valuable and you sell the stock and make a profit... people invest in art like this all the time, you buy art you like or know will have value later, then 5, 10, 50 years later you could have a million dollar painting. Investing in art or stocks I don't see as being equivalent to buying something knowing you can sell it to the people in line behind you who missed out on buying it because you bought multiples to resell. If you bought an undervalued stock then resold it immediately, you would not be considered a genius, you'd be considered an impatient fool.
as far as fairness... if you went to a pearl jam concert and went to the concessions and they sold out of the beer you like, and everyone else got the beer you like, you could say "that's not fair"... but you'd probably realize sometimes things run out before you are able to buy them if they are in a limited quantity and lots of people in the same place you do like the same beer you do, gnome sayin... nothing in this life on this rock hurtling through the vast cosmos is fair.. fairness is something we as a species try and cultivate and grant towards one another but life is not fair.. ask the gazelle running from the lion who can't run as fast as the others because they were born with slightly shorter legs about fairness! ask the person who doesn't get the poster but the flipper does... ask the artist who makes $100 per poster and even keeps the price down a little cause they are thinking about the customer while the flipper makes $400 who is thinking about how they can milk more money out of the customer... fairness is a gift we offer one another and everyone gives differently
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Brad-
I have several of your signed prints on my wall and they will never be sold.
I am about as far from a "crypto bro" as there is out there, but one aspect of that digital art world that I find pretty interesting is the artist often gets a built in royalty any time a piece of their digital art on the blockchain is bought or sold. Whenever you hear about these picture of apes or whatever being sold for a ridiculous amount of money, it is hardwired in to the smart contract that the creator of it gets anywhere from 5-10% (whatever they set it up at when creating it) of the transaction automatically moved to their linked crypto wallet without having to depend on any sort of human intervention, etc. It just happens instantly.
Have you ever considered doing NFT's of your work? I don't play in that world, I am just curious.
The reality: NFT’s are poison for the planet.
i never understood nft's to begin with... it's an instantly reproducible jpeg.. some artists took advantage of that small NFT window and made some quick cash, and more power to 'em, but it's a jpeg... the computer future is dumb some times... and tries to reinvent the wheel only to make the wheel more complicated... but it's got blockchain tech and you can use your "phone"!!! (side bar, can we stop calling them phones at this point... it's a computer in your pocket with a phone app that most people don't even use that much anymore... be like calling your car a stereo because your car does have a stereo)
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on2legs
Standing in the Jersey rain… Posts: 14,552
edited June 15
I’m not sure buying and selling a poster is quite the same as hoarding food from a food bank and selling it to hungry people.
1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore
I’m not sure buying and selling a poster is quite the same as hoarding food from a food bank and selling it to hungry people.
no? what's different?
to me it seems the same... interchange food and food bank with any other limited good or commodity
didn't people do this during covid with toilet paper? took more then they needed knowing they could resell it to people who didn't get any at a marked up price... if you are taking more then your share of a limited item with the intention of reselling it to the same people you took the opportunity away from to get one normally, it's the same if it's posters or food or toilet paper or whatever
Love seeing you on the board Brad Klausen. Keep up the great work on the posters.
2000 - Chicago, IL 2003 - Champaign, IL 2006 - Chicago, IL 1 & 2 2007 - Chicago, IL Lollapalooza 2009 - Chicago, IL 1 & 2 2010 - St. Louis, MO 2011 - East Troy, WI 1 & 2 (PJ20 Destination Weekend) 2012 - Atlanta, GA, Missoula, MT 2013 - Chicago, IL (Wrigley Field), Dallas, TX, Oklahoma City, OK 2014 - St. Louis, MO, Tulsa, OK, Moline, IL (No Code, IL), Saint Paul, MN, Milwaukee, WI (Yield, WI) 2016 - Greenville, SC (Vs, SC), Raleigh, NC, Columbia, SC, Boston, MA (Fenway Park 1), Chicago, IL (Wrigley Field 1 & 2)
2018 - Seattle, WA (Safeco Field 2), Chicago, IL (Wrigley Field 1 & 2), Boston, MA (Fenway Park 2)
2020 - Nashville, TN, St. Louis, MO, Oklahoma City, OK, Phoenix, AZ, ?? 2022 - Nashville, TN, St. Louis, MO, Oklahoma City, OK, Phoenix, AZ, Las Vegas, NV 2023 - St. Paul, MN 2, Fort Worth, TX 2, Austin, TX 1, and Austin, TX 2
2024 - Portland, OR and Chicago, IL (Wrigley Field 1 & 2)
2012 - Temple of the Dog East Troy, WI (PJ20 Destination Weekend) 2014 - Soundgarden Tinley Park, IL (with Nine Inch Nails)
2014 - Alice in Chains Davenport, IA
2016 - Chris Cornell Solo Madison, WI and Peoria, IL (official hometown show)
2016 - Temple of the Dog San Francisco, CA (both shows) 2017 - Soundgarden Dallas (cancelled) RIP Chris Cornell
2018 - Smashing Pumpkins Chicago, IL (first show)
2019 - Alice in Chains Milwaukee, WI
2022 - Jerry Cantrell Chicago, IL 2023 - Jerry Cantrell Milwaukee, WI
RIP Andrew Wood, Kurt Cobain, Layne Staley, and Chris Cornell
RIP Mom (may your star shine the brightest in the sky, our family loves and misses you very much, we'll meet again)
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on2legs
Standing in the Jersey rain… Posts: 14,552
edited June 15
I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore
Got ur poster from 10 club sale bk. Ultrahot and definitely appreciate your perspective.
I do wish that bands would pay the artist too. Even if it was only a percentage of the poster sales. I'm glad this poster worked out for you. Enjoying the fresh poster scent filling my room. Way to go!
the supply and demand aspect.... you'll never know the full demand... you could say the band could take pre orders but then what about all the people who aren't part of the ten club, who just show up to the concert and walk past the merch tables and go "on hey cool poster, I am going to buy one"... so if you only print enough for those who pre ordered them, the band misses out on possible sales from any one who didn't pre order and the fan who didn't know they had to pre order one misses out... and the pre order would most likely be done without getting to see the poster first hand, so if you pre-ordered and got a design you truly did not like, you'd be mad you paid for it.
if you print say 10,000... what if the design doesn't resonate with people and they don't sell well, then you are stuck with and paid for posters you can't sell. There's stacks of old posters that didn't sell well at the ten club warehouse, same for all bands who make posters as merch... most certainly stacks of old posters that didn't sell well in phish's warehouse or dmb's warehouse
if you charge more, you might price out flippers but then you also price out everyone else... I know this first hand as this is what I did with the 2005 South America poster... I made them $300 to deter flippers, and I deterred regular people too.. for years... then I had posters that were not selling and later I'd drop the price of that poster twice throughout the years just to try and get them out of my flat files.
the posters are a crap shoot... you never know exactly how they will sell... I was super stoked on my 3 2022 poster set, very proud of the illustrations and couldn't wait for the fans to see them... I still have a stack of Werchter and Amsterdam posters... I've had PJ posters not sell out before, but not to the level those two posters did not sell out. You just never know... so how do you plan in advance for an unknown outcome? Jeff is an artist and likes all kinds of different art and artists, he might love what an artist submits for their design and think it is killer, doesn't mean you all will...
art is subjective right... we all have our own tastes... so you just don't know what the demand will be... you don't know who will impulsively buy the poster upon walking past it at the show.
Every pj poster sale I am never entirely sure how it will go... I see these other new artists come in and charge more and they sell all their prints, so I think I should raise my prices... I raise a price of a poster and it doesn't sell as well... so next sale I think "I over charged and left money on the table", so the sale after that one I undercharge and it sells out immediately and I think "I charged too little and left money on the table"... the napa poster for example, other artists were charging $120.. I charged $100... sold out in a minute...and I thought I shoulda sold them for $120.. I could have charged $150 and I am pretty sure they would still have sold out just as quick... if I had charged $150 that would have made me 10k more (before taxes) and as a feast or famine starving artist that's a lot to leave on the table and to not have to pay my mortgage and buy food and pay bills for a few more months... point being every pj poster I do I am never 100% sure how you all will respond... I have designs I have done for pj and other bands that I think are the best thing I have ever done... and they don't sell well... sometimes I think i have my finger on the pulse of the pj poster fan / collector community and sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong....
it's all a crap shoot... unless the design is right out the gate stunning and mind blowing and done by a big name artist, you just don't know how people are going to react
as I mentioned, there is no solution, solutions have been tried and people get around the solutions... it's greed and making a quick buck, so until we fix that aspect of human nature, it's never going away.
Thank you for the response & the insight on this. Fascinating, though understandable, art being what it is, that it is such a crap shoot.
While I have never and would never flipped merch or invested in art with the objective of making a profit, I have a hard time vilifying those who do (as long as they are operating within the law, paying taxes on their profits, and following the same rules as everyone else). Someone who can identify an undervalued company/stock is a genius and as a result turn a profit is a smart investor, but someone who does the same with art is a villain? Doesn’t sit right with me. I think the emotional nature of art & fandom and the relationship to the music make this very complicated (everyone - for the most part - can access PJ’s music (recorded anyway) as equals, but we can’t all have posters…how is that fair?? (rhetorical question to be clear))
agreed, no law is being broken... and once something is your's in your possession that you paid for with your money you are free to do with it however you want. I have no issues with any person reselling anything they own... the issue is with people who are specifically buying something with no intention of ever having it or wanting to own it but they use it to take advantage of people they know just want the same thing... again it's not illegal, there's no crime... it just sucks and is a gross aspect of human nature... it'd be akin to someone going to a food bank and taking more then they need with the idea they can resell that food at a profit to people who couldn't get the food because that person took more then their share.. which would also not be a crime but is just shitty selfish human greed.. and therein lies the sheen of bad form
Your stock analogy I don't think is a fair comparison, and I am no stock trader, but as far as I am aware you purchasing a stock is not making it so someone else cannot purchase the same stock, and then you are not reselling that stock to the person who was unable to get it.
A more accurate analogy to art collecting and stock trading would be investing in an undervalued company/stock (you don't invest in the undervalued company then sell it right away, you have to wait for the undervalued company to grow) and sitting on it for years until a decade or three later that stock has become more valuable and you sell the stock and make a profit... people invest in art like this all the time, you buy art you like or know will have value later, then 5, 10, 50 years later you could have a million dollar painting. Investing in art or stocks I don't see as being equivalent to buying something knowing you can sell it to the people in line behind you who missed out on buying it because you bought multiples to resell. If you bought an undervalued stock then resold it immediately, you would not be considered a genius, you'd be considered an impatient fool.
as far as fairness... if you went to a pearl jam concert and went to the concessions and they sold out of the beer you like, and everyone else got the beer you like, you could say "that's not fair"... but you'd probably realize sometimes things run out before you are able to buy them if they are in a limited quantity and lots of people in the same place you do like the same beer you do, gnome sayin... nothing in this life on this rock hurtling through the vast cosmos is fair.. fairness is something we as a species try and cultivate and grant towards one another but life is not fair.. ask the gazelle running from the lion who can't run as fast as the others because they were born with slightly shorter legs about fairness! ask the person who doesn't get the poster but the flipper does... ask the artist who omakes $100 per poster and even keeps the price down a little cause they are thinking about the customer while the flipper makes $400 who is thinking about how they can milk more money out of the customer... fairness is a gift we offer one another and everyone gives differently
I need to learn to be more concise!
No need to be more concise, this is really thoughtful. Two quibbles that may or may not be relavent: 1. Regarding the stock analogy, there is a finite amount of stock - if no one is selling, there is none to buy. If everyone who owns it hoards it no matter the price, no one else can get it. The distinction is that few view stock as collectable (ie worthy of holding for reasons beyond intrinsic value), so stock is always for sale for the right price. The value of collectability is non-zero, however, in case of the posters (alternatively no sane person collects stock in a company for the sake of collecting it). In fact, it probably correlates with wealth - ie a rich person may know a poster has the same intrinsic value as someone else does (they both know it is ink/paint/whatever on paper), but the rich person assigns different monetary value to hanging it on their wall. A rich person (or anyone else), however, does not assign value to a stock simply because they own it or can own it.
2. How long should someone have to hold art (say your art) before they can materially profit from it? 5 hours, 5 years, 5 decades? Those who can hold it for 50 years until it may or may not be a million dollar painting may be in the fortunate position of not needing to realize their return simply because they have other means of putting food on the table. Should they be able to hold on to the same investment when someone with lesser means must sell to maintain their livelihood?
Again, thank you for the dialogue. I say this as someone who did not attempt to buy your AP or standard poster for the Napa show - despite how rad it is, little value for me, sentimental or otherwise - as I did not attend in person.
This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?
hard to say... always liked 2010 dublin... I like 2018 seattle.... milton keynes... the sunrise florida one I like... I am sure i am forgetting some... camden 2008...
Dusseldorf 2007 Brad!!..thank you for this!!..
Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015. Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022 EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.
I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?
hard to say... always liked 2010 dublin... I like 2018 seattle.... milton keynes... the sunrise florida one I like... I am sure i am forgetting some... camden 2008...
Dusseldorf 2007 Brad!!..thank you for this!!..
I have it as a tattoo
brixton 93
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Didn't go to Dusselsdorf in 2007. But for that tour it was for sure the most talked about and appreciated poster.
I have Brads Copenhagen poster from that year. And Ames London poster with the elephant. Because those were the two shows I saw. My 2nd and 3rd PJ show. The elephant later was used for a t-shirt. And Brads anvil-hitter was used on a poloshirt.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?
hard to say... always liked 2010 dublin... I like 2018 seattle.... milton keynes... the sunrise florida one I like... I am sure i am forgetting some... camden 2008...
Dusseldorf 2007 Brad!!..thank you for this!!..
I have it as a tattoo
Sweet!!
Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015. Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022 EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.
I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
Really love your insight @bradklausen. Big fan of your work! One of my favorites is your Ft. Lauderdale poster you did, proudly displaying it on my wall.
2005 - London
2009 - Toronto
2010 - Buffalo
2011 - Toronto 1&2
2013 - London, Pittsburgh, Buffalo
2014 - Cincinnati, St. Louis, Detroit
2016 - Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Ottawa, Toronto 1 2018 - Fenway 1&2 2022 - Hamilton, Toronto 2023 - Chicago 1&2
This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?
hard to say... always liked 2010 dublin... I like 2018 seattle.... milton keynes... the sunrise florida one I like... I am sure i am forgetting some... camden 2008...
Dusseldorf 2007 Brad!!..thank you for this!!..
I have it as a tattoo
I've often wondered about this - how do poster artists feel about people using their artwork on a tattoo. I'm not trying to start trouble or put anyone on the spot, but I am truly curious. Do you imagine most artists take it as a compliment and aren't bothered at all or do they maybe think "you know, I'm glad you dig my artwork, but I spent a lot of time and hard work creating it. At the very least, I'd appreciate you asking my permission first. And I would not object to you sending me some compensation via Paypal etc." After all, the tattoo artist sure as hell is getting paid. Opinions anyone?
My opinion. Proud maybe that someone rates it that highly. Money..? Why I don't get that part. Think about all the tattoos out there Is che Guevara getting money or bob Marley for people getting their picture? Doesn't work
brixton 93
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?
hard to say... always liked 2010 dublin... I like 2018 seattle.... milton keynes... the sunrise florida one I like... I am sure i am forgetting some... camden 2008...
Dusseldorf 2007 Brad!!..thank you for this!!..
I have it as a tattoo
I've often wondered about this - how do poster artists feel about people using their artwork on a tattoo. I'm not trying to start trouble or put anyone on the spot, but I am truly curious. Do you imagine most artists take it as a compliment and aren't bothered at all or do they maybe think "you know, I'm glad you dig my artwork, but I spent a lot of time and hard work creating it. At the very least, I'd appreciate you asking my permission first. And I would not object to you sending me some compensation via Paypal etc." After all, the tattoo artist sure as hell is getting paid. Opinions anyone?
emek's book has a couple pages on people with his work tats. He likey.
Didn't think to check, hasn't updated yet. Can't think of anything coming by certified mail from Washington I've ordered, but I have had some crossed wires from USPS informed delivery lately so it could be an error.
Agree that flippers are parasitic scum, and the stock market and food bank are imperfect analogies. But flippers can be beneficial in some cases. For example, if you couldn't try for the AP drop because of work, or just didn't want to stand in a six hour merch line for a duffel bag or skate deck. If 100% of the items went to "fans" who have no interest in selling, you'd never be able to get the item.
The flipper didn't prevent me from getting the item if I wasn't even there to try for it. Assuming no flippers participated in the drop, there were surely enough "fans" going for it to sell out anyway.
This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?
hard to say... always liked 2010 dublin... I like 2018 seattle.... milton keynes... the sunrise florida one I like... I am sure i am forgetting some... camden 2008...
Dusseldorf 2007 Brad!!..thank you for this!!..
I have it as a tattoo
I've often wondered about this - how do poster artists feel about people using their artwork on a tattoo. I'm not trying to start trouble or put anyone on the spot, but I am truly curious. Do you imagine most artists take it as a compliment and aren't bothered at all or do they maybe think "you know, I'm glad you dig my artwork, but I spent a lot of time and hard work creating it. At the very least, I'd appreciate you asking my permission first. And I would not object to you sending me some compensation via Paypal etc." After all, the tattoo artist sure as hell is getting paid. Opinions anyone?
It's very flattering that someone would want to permanently have your art on their body... I have no tattoos myself, but am a fan of the art form.
I think the only issue arises is if the tattoo artist is good.... cause if they are not, then your art is being, in my opinion, poorly presented. So to people out there who want a tattoo of any art.... shop around for an artists before walking into your local nearest tattoo shop and just letting who ever is available permanently mark you. Because not all tattoo artists are good at what they do... it's a tough medium to work in.
This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?
hard to say... always liked 2010 dublin... I like 2018 seattle.... milton keynes... the sunrise florida one I like... I am sure i am forgetting some... camden 2008...
Proud owner of many of your posters including 2004 Showbox, 2005 Borgata (pink), Chicago 2005, Honolulu 2006, AP 2010 Dublin, East Troy 2011 and more.
the supply and demand aspect.... you'll never know the full demand... you could say the band could take pre orders but then what about all the people who aren't part of the ten club, who just show up to the concert and walk past the merch tables and go "on hey cool poster, I am going to buy one"... so if you only print enough for those who pre ordered them, the band misses out on possible sales from any one who didn't pre order and the fan who didn't know they had to pre order one misses out... and the pre order would most likely be done without getting to see the poster first hand, so if you pre-ordered and got a design you truly did not like, you'd be mad you paid for it.
if you print say 10,000... what if the design doesn't resonate with people and they don't sell well, then you are stuck with and paid for posters you can't sell. There's stacks of old posters that didn't sell well at the ten club warehouse, same for all bands who make posters as merch... most certainly stacks of old posters that didn't sell well in phish's warehouse or dmb's warehouse
if you charge more, you might price out flippers but then you also price out everyone else... I know this first hand as this is what I did with the 2005 South America poster... I made them $300 to deter flippers, and I deterred regular people too.. for years... then I had posters that were not selling and later I'd drop the price of that poster twice throughout the years just to try and get them out of my flat files.
the posters are a crap shoot... you never know exactly how they will sell... I was super stoked on my 3 2022 poster set, very proud of the illustrations and couldn't wait for the fans to see them... I still have a stack of Werchter and Amsterdam posters... I've had PJ posters not sell out before, but not to the level those two posters did not sell out. You just never know... so how do you plan in advance for an unknown outcome? Jeff is an artist and likes all kinds of different art and artists, he might love what an artist submits for their design and think it is killer, doesn't mean you all will...
art is subjective right... we all have our own tastes... so you just don't know what the demand will be... you don't know who will impulsively buy the poster upon walking past it at the show.
Every pj poster sale I am never entirely sure how it will go... I see these other new artists come in and charge more and they sell all their prints, so I think I should raise my prices... I raise a price of a poster and it doesn't sell as well... so next sale I think "I over charged and left money on the table", so the sale after that one I undercharge and it sells out immediately and I think "I charged too little and left money on the table"... the napa poster for example, other artists were charging $120.. I charged $100... sold out in a minute...and I thought I shoulda sold them for $120.. I could have charged $150 and I am pretty sure they would still have sold out just as quick... if I had charged $150 that would have made me 10k more (before taxes) and as a feast or famine starving artist that's a lot to leave on the table and to not have to pay my mortgage and buy food and pay bills for a few more months... point being every pj poster I do I am never 100% sure how you all will respond... I have designs I have done for pj and other bands that I think are the best thing I have ever done... and they don't sell well... sometimes I think i have my finger on the pulse of the pj poster fan / collector community and sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong....
it's all a crap shoot... unless the design is right out the gate stunning and mind blowing and done by a big name artist, you just don't know how people are going to react
as I mentioned, there is no solution, solutions have been tried and people get around the solutions... it's greed and making a quick buck, so until we fix that aspect of human nature, it's never going away.
Thank you for the response & the insight on this. Fascinating, though understandable, art being what it is, that it is such a crap shoot.
While I have never and would never flipped merch or invested in art with the objective of making a profit, I have a hard time vilifying those who do (as long as they are operating within the law, paying taxes on their profits, and following the same rules as everyone else). Someone who can identify an undervalued company/stock is a genius and as a result turn a profit is a smart investor, but someone who does the same with art is a villain? Doesn’t sit right with me. I think the emotional nature of art & fandom and the relationship to the music make this very complicated (everyone - for the most part - can access PJ’s music (recorded anyway) as equals, but we can’t all have posters…how is that fair?? (rhetorical question to be clear))
agreed, no law is being broken... and once something is your's in your possession that you paid for with your money you are free to do with it however you want. I have no issues with any person reselling anything they own... the issue is with people who are specifically buying something with no intention of ever having it or wanting to own it but they use it to take advantage of people they know just want the same thing... again it's not illegal, there's no crime... it just sucks and is a gross aspect of human nature... it'd be akin to someone going to a food bank and taking more then they need with the idea they can resell that food at a profit to people who couldn't get the food because that person took more then their share.. which would also not be a crime but is just shitty selfish human greed.. and therein lies the sheen of bad form
Your stock analogy I don't think is a fair comparison, and I am no stock trader, but as far as I am aware you purchasing a stock is not making it so someone else cannot purchase the same stock, and then you are not reselling that stock to the person who was unable to get it.
A more accurate analogy to art collecting and stock trading would be investing in an undervalued company/stock (you don't invest in the undervalued company then sell it right away, you have to wait for the undervalued company to grow) and sitting on it for years until a decade or three later that stock has become more valuable and you sell the stock and make a profit... people invest in art like this all the time, you buy art you like or know will have value later, then 5, 10, 50 years later you could have a million dollar painting. Investing in art or stocks I don't see as being equivalent to buying something knowing you can sell it to the people in line behind you who missed out on buying it because you bought multiples to resell. If you bought an undervalued stock then resold it immediately, you would not be considered a genius, you'd be considered an impatient fool.
as far as fairness... if you went to a pearl jam concert and went to the concessions and they sold out of the beer you like, and everyone else got the beer you like, you could say "that's not fair"... but you'd probably realize sometimes things run out before you are able to buy them if they are in a limited quantity and lots of people in the same place you do like the same beer you do, gnome sayin... nothing in this life on this rock hurtling through the vast cosmos is fair.. fairness is something we as a species try and cultivate and grant towards one another but life is not fair.. ask the gazelle running from the lion who can't run as fast as the others because they were born with slightly shorter legs about fairness! ask the person who doesn't get the poster but the flipper does... ask the artist who omakes $100 per poster and even keeps the price down a little cause they are thinking about the customer while the flipper makes $400 who is thinking about how they can milk more money out of the customer... fairness is a gift we offer one another and everyone gives differently
I need to learn to be more concise!
No need to be more concise, this is really thoughtful. Two quibbles that may or may not be relavent: 1. Regarding the stock analogy, there is a finite amount of stock - if no one is selling, there is none to buy. If everyone who owns it hoards it no matter the price, no one else can get it. The distinction is that few view stock as collectable (ie worthy of holding for reasons beyond intrinsic value), so stock is always for sale for the right price. The value of collectability is non-zero, however, in case of the posters (alternatively no sane person collects stock in a company for the sake of collecting it). In fact, it probably correlates with wealth - ie a rich person may know a poster has the same intrinsic value as someone else does (they both know it is ink/paint/whatever on paper), but the rich person assigns different monetary value to hanging it on their wall. A rich person (or anyone else), however, does not assign value to a stock simply because they own it or can own it.
2. How long should someone have to hold art (say your art) before they can materially profit from it? 5 hours, 5 years, 5 decades? Those who can hold it for 50 years until it may or may not be a million dollar painting may be in the fortunate position of not needing to realize their return simply because they have other means of putting food on the table. Should they be able to hold on to the same investment when someone with lesser means must sell to maintain their livelihood?
Again, thank you for the dialogue. I say this as someone who did not attempt to buy your AP or standard poster for the Napa show - despite how rad it is, little value for me, sentimental or otherwise - as I did not attend in person.
1.stock trading is not something I know much about at all.
2. the issue with flipping is the flipper is not buying the art as an investment that will accrue value over time, they are selling it immediately after they purchase it,.. it is not the same as investing in art... it's a quick buck turnaround.... and as stated, there's no crime there, they have every right to do that.... but let's not compare that practice to a person who is buying art as an investment... the flipper could care less if they were flipping a work of art or any good, all they care about is acquiring things that are limited in quantity that they know they can quickly resell to the people behind them who were unable to get the item because the flipper got there before them... be it beanie babies or any limited collectible or item, the flipper has zero interest in what the item is, only that it is limited and lots of people will want it and they can make a few bucks...
people who flip houses, do all this work fixing up the house, they invest money and blood sweat and tears renovating a home to resell.. they spend months working and earn every penny they making flipping that house.
flippers of collectibles just buy a thing then turn around to the people in line behind them and up charge them
if someone wants to resell something they own, they have every right, and they can sell it immediately if they so choose,... it just shitty selfish greed bad form when you buy something you have no desire to own specifically knowing you are taking that thing away from those who want them so you can resell it for more to the same people you took the opportunity away from. If an artist or business is selling something that is limited and says "one per customer" and you go out of your way to figure out ways to get more then your share and cause others to miss out because of your greed, then you're kinda just a selfish dick. And there's no crime or illegality in being a selfish dick, the world is run by them... but we can all see when someone is being a greedy selfish dick and generally we all agree that greed and selfishness are problems in our world. I mean even across human civilization, and in the religions of the world, greed and gluttony are called out specifically as what christianity calls "deadly sins". So we as a species agree, greed and gluttony are things we should try and avoid... and there's that whole compassion and empathy thing too where you think about people other then yourself.
As I mentioned before, it's no different then if you did this with anything, with any item... if you are going out of your way to buy things you don't like and don't want knowing you can then exploit the people who do like it and do want it... I don't see that as "investing in art" I see it as hustling people out of their money.
I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
posters are not like food and toilet paper... we don't need posters...
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?
Comments
I emailed the artist and waiting to hear back.
Did anybody else experience this with their Buhler AP? If so, any response from the artist?
Seems like a thin/flimsy tube it was shipped in, so wouldn't be surprised if others arrived damaged.
Cheers!
Your stock analogy I don't think is a fair comparison, and I am no stock trader, but as far as I am aware you purchasing a stock is not making it so someone else cannot purchase the same stock, and then you are not reselling that stock to the person who was unable to get it.
A more accurate analogy to art collecting and stock trading would be investing in an undervalued company/stock (you don't invest in the undervalued company then sell it right away, you have to wait for the undervalued company to grow) and sitting on it for years until a decade or three later that stock has become more valuable and you sell the stock and make a profit... people invest in art like this all the time, you buy art you like or know will have value later, then 5, 10, 50 years later you could have a million dollar painting. Investing in art or stocks I don't see as being equivalent to buying something knowing you can sell it to the people in line behind you who missed out on buying it because you bought multiples to resell. If you bought an undervalued stock then resold it immediately, you would not be considered a genius, you'd be considered an impatient fool.
as far as fairness... if you went to a pearl jam concert and went to the concessions and they sold out of the beer you like, and everyone else got the beer you like, you could say "that's not fair"... but you'd probably realize sometimes things run out before you are able to buy them if they are in a limited quantity and lots of people in the same place you do like the same beer you do, gnome sayin... nothing in this life on this rock hurtling through the vast cosmos is fair.. fairness is something we as a species try and cultivate and grant towards one another but life is not fair.. ask the gazelle running from the lion who can't run as fast as the others because they were born with slightly shorter legs about fairness! ask the person who doesn't get the poster but the flipper does... ask the artist who makes $100 per poster and even keeps the price down a little cause they are thinking about the customer while the flipper makes $400 who is thinking about how they can milk more money out of the customer... fairness is a gift we offer one another and everyone gives differently
I need to learn to be more concise!
to me it seems the same... interchange food and food bank with any other limited good or commodity
didn't people do this during covid with toilet paper? took more then they needed knowing they could resell it to people who didn't get any at a marked up price... if you are taking more then your share of a limited item with the intention of reselling it to the same people you took the opportunity away from to get one normally, it's the same if it's posters or food or toilet paper or whatever
i dunno seems the same to me
2003 - Champaign, IL
2006 - Chicago, IL 1 & 2
2007 - Chicago, IL Lollapalooza
2009 - Chicago, IL 1 & 2
2010 - St. Louis, MO
2011 - East Troy, WI 1 & 2 (PJ20 Destination Weekend)
2012 - Atlanta, GA, Missoula, MT
2013 - Chicago, IL (Wrigley Field), Dallas, TX, Oklahoma City, OK
2014 - St. Louis, MO, Tulsa, OK, Moline, IL (No Code, IL), Saint Paul, MN, Milwaukee, WI (Yield, WI)
2016 - Greenville, SC (Vs, SC), Raleigh, NC, Columbia, SC, Boston, MA (Fenway Park 1), Chicago, IL (Wrigley Field 1 & 2)
2022 - Nashville, TN, St. Louis, MO, Oklahoma City, OK, Phoenix, AZ, Las Vegas, NV
2023 - St. Paul, MN 2, Fort Worth, TX 2, Austin, TX 1, and Austin, TX 2
2014 - Soundgarden Tinley Park, IL (with Nine Inch Nails)
2017 - Soundgarden Dallas (cancelled) RIP Chris Cornell
2023 - Jerry Cantrell Milwaukee, WI
Got ur poster from 10 club sale bk. Ultrahot and definitely appreciate your perspective.
I do wish that bands would pay the artist too. Even if it was only a percentage of the poster sales. I'm glad this poster worked out for you.
Enjoying the fresh poster scent filling my room.
Way to go!
1. Regarding the stock analogy, there is a finite amount of stock - if no one is selling, there is none to buy. If everyone who owns it hoards it no matter the price, no one else can get it. The distinction is that few view stock as collectable (ie worthy of holding for reasons beyond intrinsic value), so stock is always for sale for the right price. The value of collectability is non-zero, however, in case of the posters (alternatively no sane person collects stock in a company for the sake of collecting it). In fact, it probably correlates with wealth - ie a rich person may know a poster has the same intrinsic value as someone else does (they both know it is ink/paint/whatever on paper), but the rich person assigns different monetary value to hanging it on their wall. A rich person (or anyone else), however, does not assign value to a stock simply because they own it or can own it.
Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.
I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
I have Brads Copenhagen poster from that year. And Ames London poster with the elephant. Because those were the two shows I saw. My 2nd and 3rd PJ show. The elephant later was used for a t-shirt. And Brads anvil-hitter was used on a poloshirt.
Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.
I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
2009 - Toronto
2010 - Buffalo
2011 - Toronto 1&2
2013 - London, Pittsburgh, Buffalo
2014 - Cincinnati, St. Louis, Detroit
2016 - Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Ottawa, Toronto 1
2018 - Fenway 1&2
2022 - Hamilton, Toronto
2023 - Chicago 1&2
Looking forward to what posters pop up next on tour. Fun times
Proud maybe that someone rates it that highly.
Money..? Why I don't get that part.
Think about all the tattoos out there
Is che Guevara getting money or bob Marley for people getting their picture? Doesn't work
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Chicago 1 (August 20, 2016)
Chicago 2 (August 22, 2016)
Ft. Worth 1 (September 13, 2023)
Ft. Worth 2 (September 15, 2023)
The flipper didn't prevent me from getting the item if I wasn't even there to try for it. Assuming no flippers participated in the drop, there were surely enough "fans" going for it to sell out anyway.
I think the only issue arises is if the tattoo artist is good.... cause if they are not, then your art is being, in my opinion, poorly presented. So to people out there who want a tattoo of any art.... shop around for an artists before walking into your local nearest tattoo shop and just letting who ever is available permanently mark you. Because not all tattoo artists are good at what they do... it's a tough medium to work in.
2. the issue with flipping is the flipper is not buying the art as an investment that will accrue value over time, they are selling it immediately after they purchase it,.. it is not the same as investing in art... it's a quick buck turnaround.... and as stated, there's no crime there, they have every right to do that.... but let's not compare that practice to a person who is buying art as an investment... the flipper could care less if they were flipping a work of art or any good, all they care about is acquiring things that are limited in quantity that they know they can quickly resell to the people behind them who were unable to get the item because the flipper got there before them... be it beanie babies or any limited collectible or item, the flipper has zero interest in what the item is, only that it is limited and lots of people will want it and they can make a few bucks...
people who flip houses, do all this work fixing up the house, they invest money and blood sweat and tears renovating a home to resell.. they spend months working and earn every penny they making flipping that house.
flippers of collectibles just buy a thing then turn around to the people in line behind them and up charge them
if someone wants to resell something they own, they have every right, and they can sell it immediately if they so choose,... it just shitty selfish greed bad form when you buy something you have no desire to own specifically knowing you are taking that thing away from those who want them so you can resell it for more to the same people you took the opportunity away from. If an artist or business is selling something that is limited and says "one per customer" and you go out of your way to figure out ways to get more then your share and cause others to miss out because of your greed, then you're kinda just a selfish dick. And there's no crime or illegality in being a selfish dick, the world is run by them... but we can all see when someone is being a greedy selfish dick and generally we all agree that greed and selfishness are problems in our world. I mean even across human civilization, and in the religions of the world, greed and gluttony are called out specifically as what christianity calls "deadly sins". So we as a species agree, greed and gluttony are things we should try and avoid... and there's that whole compassion and empathy thing too where you think about people other then yourself.
As I mentioned before, it's no different then if you did this with anything, with any item... if you are going out of your way to buy things you don't like and don't want knowing you can then exploit the people who do like it and do want it... I don't see that as "investing in art" I see it as hustling people out of their money.
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?