Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.
Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.
Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.
crazy innit.... even crazier, is as I mentioned before, sometime you ask for like 40 posters as compensation and a merch company won't even do that... and it costs them like 500-700 bucks to print 40 posters and send them to you... so not only will they not pay you upfront, they think you being able to sell 40 posters is too much of payment for you.... i had one merch company say "yeah but if i give you 100 posters and you sell them for $30 a piece, you'd make $3000!!" as if that was too much to get paid for the work being done, and the merch company wouldn't even be the ones paying it, they just didn't like the idea of an artist making $3000 for weeks of work,... they want weeks of work but don't want to pay for weeks of work and then for some reason don't want you to make more then they think you should get paid from customers buying your prints
and that has been pretty consistent during the 20 years I've made posters.... so even if you establish yourself as a name in the poster design world, and bands / merch companies know your work and seek you out, they still offer you peanuts and if you ask for slightly more or wha t the work is worth, then you are "difficult to work with"... so the poster artists almost always gets screwed, simply by just trying to get fair compensation for the work bands and merch companies want.
what's even more nuts with this weird niche career, you can get hired by a well known touring band to do say a diptych for a run of two nights... spend months on it, keep the band / merch company up to date with process shots as you progress... then upon delivering the poster you were hired to do and signed their contract which has no clause regarding terminating finished work upon delivery, and agreed that you would be compensated in posters, which if you sold them all would have made you 10-12k and spent 6+ weeks working on, they can go "we decided to 'pivot' a different direction"... and then they give you a $1000 kill fee.... so they break their own contract of hiring you, and ignore that there is no language or clause about payment for killing a job upon delivery of final work, then upon delivery say they don't want what they hired you to do and approved along the way, then rug pull your sales out from under you and toss you $1000 as if that is fair compensation... then when you diplomatically and professionally remind them of their own contract and what they agreed to and how this is bad business and bad form, you are then labeled as "difficult to work with" and don't get jobs with that band again. And I hate to be agist, but nowadays a lot of the time you are dealing with younger and younger people who have bad business and people skills who think because they work for such and such band they are a big deal and have power over you...which sadly, they do have power over you... so even when you are correct and in the right and stand up for yourself when you get screwed, you get more screwed and labeled as a problem.
Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.
Unionize
then they can either just use non union artists who work for free or way less, or use AI... which is already creeping in
I was told by someone in the merch world that they knew of a company feeding AI a band's catalog of past posters to teach AI how to make posters for that band.
if you stand up and demand to be treated fairly, there's always a line of artists behind you stoked for the opportunity who will work for much less, and will work for exposure and building their portfolio.. I was one of those artists when I was young and starting... such and such band contacts you and you go "OH MY GOD! I LOVE THAT BAND OF COURSE I WILL DO A POSTER FOR NOTHING!!" And companies know this... it's true in music, in sports, in movies and tv...
the solution would be just pay the artists fair compensation.. again it's the same with streaming services or record labels not paying the musicians fairly... to Shecky's point if two artists spend the same time working on their poster and one poster hits and the other doesn't... they are not paid the same amount for their time. You spend weeks on a poster, get 50 to sell, and then if it doesn't hit with people or a band's fan base just isn't that into posters, you sell 5 posters instead of 50 and make like $300 for weeks of work instead of $3000... and even $3000 probably works out to a poor hourly wage for weeks of time
I love getting to make posters, it's the reason i quit working as an employee for PJ, i wanted to spend all my time making posters and only posters.. I love getting to make art for my favorite bands, getting to tattoo a concert into rock and roll history and the history of a band, getting to listen to music and see what images it evokes in your mind and then trying to create them, getting to be inspired by music to make art for some of my favorite musicians of all time, getting to make a living drawing, getting to work in a field and medium full of some of the most talented artists around... and I bet most of my peers feel the same way, we love this.... it'd just be nice if getting fairly compensated for the time and energy wasn't always an uphill battle and was just fair.... but there's plenty of people in countless other professions who struggle with the exact same thing.
I’ll never buy a poster with AI generated art. Period.
the sad part about AI art... midjourney... is one of the most amazing artists I have ever seen.... the software, not the people who type prompts and tell the software what to do... they are no different then clients who tell human artists what they want made. That's what clients hav been telling artists for forever "make me this piece of artwork, i want it to be traditional looking but cool, incorporate my love of nature, use purple cause I love purple, oh and i love anime so make it in an anime style"
midjourney does the same thing human artists do, it looks at other art and cross references it (sometimes steals it, which human artists do too).. it's just AI software can look at ALL art in nano seconds, whereas the human artist has to go to museums and flip through books and consume art the human way and it takes years and years and lifetime of practice and study and honing your talents... AI can look at all art in the blink of a human eye and go "i took your few prompts and made something far beyond what you prompted me to make... you wanna see it in Art Deco...boom... art nouveau, here ya go... steam punk, bam... comic book illustration style, done... or how bout as an oil painting, here ya go "
it's insane... I naively never though computers would be able to make art... computers make amazing art.... and like human artists, they struggle with hands.. hands are tricky
the aspect about it that really bothers me is this talking point that Ai is just "another tool for artists"... it is not another tool, it is an artist... I can't go to Emek and say "Emek i need to do a poster for Pearl Jam, I want to make a panda bear riding an elephant through a river of colors in a surreal landscape... can you whip me up a few different compositions on that?" and then I take what Emek did, maybe change it a little or not at all and go "I made this!"
but there are artists who use AI to create their composition for them, create their color scheme, and they they just recreate what Ai did for them... so you won't know if an artist's image was their own unique composition and color scheme and details or if they are just copying an AI generated image.... it's basically cheating and not having to pay another artist to do all your heavy lifting for you... and I've heard artists admit as much that they just use AI to get a general idea for their composition, but they then make their own image based off that.... then you didn't come up with your composition did you.... you had slave machine labor do it for you for free.
man i sure get sucked into these conversations!! Okay back outside again, away from the machine!!
Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.
Unionize
then they can either just use non union artists who work for free or way less, or use AI... which is already creeping in
I was told by someone in the merch world that they knew of a company feeding AI a band's catalog of past posters to teach AI how to make posters for that band.
if you stand up and demand to be treated fairly, there's always a line of artists behind you stoked for the opportunity who will work for much less, and will work for exposure and building their portfolio.. I was one of those artists when I was young and starting... such and such band contacts you and you go "OH MY GOD! I LOVE THAT BAND OF COURSE I WILL DO A POSTER FOR NOTHING!!" And companies know this... it's true in music, in sports, in movies and tv...
the solution would be just pay the artists fair compensation.. again it's the same with streaming services or record labels not paying the musicians fairly... to Shecky's point if two artists spend the same time working on their poster and one poster hits and the other doesn't... they are not paid the same amount for their time. You spend weeks on a poster, get 50 to sell, and then if it doesn't hit with people or a band's fan base just isn't that into posters, you sell 5 posters instead of 50 and make like $300 for weeks of work instead of $3000... and even $3000 probably works out to a poor hourly wage for weeks of time
I love getting to make posters, it's the reason i quit working as an employee for PJ, i wanted to spend all my time making posters and only posters.. I love getting to make art for my favorite bands, getting to tattoo a concert into rock and roll history and the history of a band, getting to listen to music and see what images it evokes in your mind and then trying to create them, getting to be inspired by music to make art for some of my favorite musicians of all time, getting to make a living drawing, getting to work in a field and medium full of some of the most talented artists around... and I bet most of my peers feel the same way, we love this.... it'd just be nice if getting fairly compensated for the time and energy wasn't always an uphill battle and was just fair.... but there's plenty of people in countless other professions who struggle with the exact same thing.
Good points. I'm not an expert on union dynamics by any means. Seems that it would only work if everyone on the labor side is willing to "buy in" for the greater good. In the music industry, with the "management side" being dispersed over many different bands it may be difficult to buy in.
In my experience, fair pay comes when the employee has some leverage. Otherwise, most businesses will pay the minimum they can get away with. There are exceptions of course, but few and far between.
Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.
Unionize
then they can either just use non union artists who work for free or way less, or use AI... which is already creeping in
I was told by someone in the merch world that they knew of a company feeding AI a band's catalog of past posters to teach AI how to make posters for that band.
if you stand up and demand to be treated fairly, there's always a line of artists behind you stoked for the opportunity who will work for much less, and will work for exposure and building their portfolio.. I was one of those artists when I was young and starting... such and such band contacts you and you go "OH MY GOD! I LOVE THAT BAND OF COURSE I WILL DO A POSTER FOR NOTHING!!" And companies know this... it's true in music, in sports, in movies and tv...
the solution would be just pay the artists fair compensation.. again it's the same with streaming services or record labels not paying the musicians fairly... to Shecky's point if two artists spend the same time working on their poster and one poster hits and the other doesn't... they are not paid the same amount for their time. You spend weeks on a poster, get 50 to sell, and then if it doesn't hit with people or a band's fan base just isn't that into posters, you sell 5 posters instead of 50 and make like $300 for weeks of work instead of $3000... and even $3000 probably works out to a poor hourly wage for weeks of time
I love getting to make posters, it's the reason i quit working as an employee for PJ, i wanted to spend all my time making posters and only posters.. I love getting to make art for my favorite bands, getting to tattoo a concert into rock and roll history and the history of a band, getting to listen to music and see what images it evokes in your mind and then trying to create them, getting to be inspired by music to make art for some of my favorite musicians of all time, getting to make a living drawing, getting to work in a field and medium full of some of the most talented artists around... and I bet most of my peers feel the same way, we love this.... it'd just be nice if getting fairly compensated for the time and energy wasn't always an uphill battle and was just fair.... but there's plenty of people in countless other professions who struggle with the exact same thing.
Good points. I'm not an expert on union dynamics by any means. Seems that it would only work if everyone on the labor side is willing to "buy in" for the greater good. In the music industry, with the "management side" being dispersed over many different bands it may be difficult to buy in.
In my experience, fair pay comes when the employee has some leverage. Otherwise, most businesses will pay the minimum they can get away with. There are exceptions of course, but few and far between.
not only will they pay the minimum they can get away with, they will fight and will lobby congress to not raise minimum wage.
Agree that flippers are parasitic scum, and the stock market and food bank are imperfect analogies. But flippers can be beneficial in some cases. For example, if you couldn't try for the AP drop because of work, or just didn't want to stand in a six hour merch line for a duffel bag or skate deck. If 100% of the items went to "fans" who have no interest in selling, you'd never be able to get the item.
The flipper didn't prevent me from getting the item if I wasn't even there to try for it. Assuming no flippers participated in the drop, there were surely enough "fans" going for it to sell out anyway.
You bring up some good points. I worked in the construction industry for decades and didn't have access to a phone or computer during the day. I am a huge collector and counted on someone buying 2 prints to resell one of them. Sure it wasn't the $40 merch tent score but if I could buy it for around $80 shipped to my house that was just fine. We went to the opening show in Vancouver - I really liked the print but there was zero way I was going to carry it around the venue for 3+ hours. Bought it from the 10 club when it went up but I would have gladly paid someone $80 on Ebay. That being said I do have an issue with the dude that bought a bunch of skateboards at the LA show and then went down the line to sell them at a higher price to folks. They need to have strict limits as to what you can buy. No more than 2 of anything and not one of each size of the same shirt. Seems pretty basic.
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on2legs
Standing in the Jersey rain… Posts: 14,567
I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
posters are not like food and toilet paper... we don't need posters...
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?
I think you answered the question at the end of this post with the first line from this post.
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Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
A little trip back in time. 2006 Flatstock in Seattle. Brad had a bunch of amazing prints for the tour. Doors opened at 10am. There were a ton of people outside with one goal in mind - figure out where Brad was set up and get there as fast as possible. I was nowhere near the front. By the time I figured out what was up there was already a long line. Price was $60 a print and you could only buy 1 of each print. It was really depressing to watch people with a bunch of cash saying "I want one of every print". One guy stood out. He took his kids. So the kids bought 1 of every print. I am sure they are huge fans of the band as well as Brad's work. I managed to score a few prints (including DC) but Toronto had been sold out. Brad and his girlfriend were literally under siege. I felt really bad for all of the other talented artists that were there. The look on their faces was like "what the hell is going on". Fast forward a few years and after a party night I am circling the showbox looking for a parking spot. It's Sunday morning and the 10 club was having the poster show. We ended up being around the corner which I knew was not good. When we got in my wife immediately got in the 10 club line and I went to score a few prints. As luck would have it Brad brought one of his last remaining Toronto prints which I was really happy to finally get. I joined my wife in the 10 club line. The guy in front of us bought the last Benaroya vinyl set that they had. $400. I was bummed out. After consoling myself with a few beers later I went on Ebay. Some guy from Lake Stevens was there earlier than me and had it listed for $1250. I bought it and was happy that he made it available. I've seen both sides of the reselling thing and can understand the frustration of missing out because of a flipper. That being said I was out of the country for the Seattle shows and would buy a hockey jersey today for $200.
This all reminds me of the artist, a little while ago, who questioned this type of "payment" and she was skewered by a lot of people here. As if she should have been grateful to do any work for PJ. Also, reminds me of the music scene in L.A. in the 80s where bands would have to buy their own tickets and sell them to get any pay. The old "pay to play" situation was great for promoters and clubs, but shitty for us musicians who just wanted to play music for people and not lose money. It sucks that more musicians aren't standing up for a more equitable system of payment for all of the hard work that poster artists put into their art.
1991- Hollywood Palladium, California with Temple of the Dog, Soundgarden, and Alice in Chains -RIP Magazine Show Oct. 6th 1992- Lollapalooza, Irvine, California Nothing since then. I suck. 2016- Fenway Park, Boston - Both glorious nights 2022- Oakland Night 2 2024 Sacramento, CA
This all reminds me of the artist, a little while ago, who questioned this type of "payment" and she was skewered by a lot of people here. As if she should have been grateful to do any work for PJ. Also, reminds me of the music scene in L.A. in the 80s where bands would have to buy their own tickets and sell them to get any pay. The old "pay to play" situation was great for promoters and clubs, but shitty for us musicians who just wanted to play music for people and not lose money. It sucks that more musicians aren't standing up for a more equitable system of payment for all of the hard work that poster artists put into their art.
I believe that situation involved shows on the Australian leg. It struck me as nuts that the artist would have to wait until November to get paid
I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
posters are not like food and toilet paper... we don't need posters...
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?
I think you answered the question at the end of this post with the first line from this post.
✌🏻
right, I understand food and toilet paper are necessities and posters are not... but you seem to miss the point, expressed in the other sentences besides the first one, that regardless of whether an item is a necessity or not, the practice of hoarding things to resell to people is the same regardless if the item is a necessity or not... it's the same drive / desire to make money off people and to exploit people.. so a person buying more toilet paper then they need knowing they can resell it, is doing the same thing a person buying more pj merch then they need knowing they can resell it.... we'd all agree doing this with food or necessities is worse, but the mentality and drive to do that is the same mentality, which is "I can make money off people" regardless of the item
I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
posters are not like food and toilet paper... we don't need posters...
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?
I think you answered the question at the end of this post with the first line from this post.
✌🏻
right, I understand food and toilet paper are necessities and posters are not... but you seem to miss the point, expressed in the other sentences besides the first one, that regardless of whether an item is a necessity or not, the practice of hoarding things to resell to people is the same regardless if the item is a necessity or not... it's the same drive / desire to make money off people and to exploit people.. so a person buying more toilet paper then they need knowing they can resell it, is doing the same thing a person buying more pj merch then they need knowing they can resell it.... we'd all agree doing this with food or necessities is worse, but the mentality and drive to do that is the same mentality, which is "I can make money off people" regardless of the item
Totally not missing your point. Just disagreeing that someone who resells a poster is doing the same as someone hoarding food.
Your art is awesome and we are all big fans. The Nashville ‘22 is my favorite of your recent work and it’s hanging on my wall. Can’t wait to see your next creation. ✌🏻
1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore
I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
posters are not like food and toilet paper... we don't need posters...
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?
I think you answered the question at the end of this post with the first line from this post.
✌🏻
right, I understand food and toilet paper are necessities and posters are not... but you seem to miss the point, expressed in the other sentences besides the first one, that regardless of whether an item is a necessity or not, the practice of hoarding things to resell to people is the same regardless if the item is a necessity or not... it's the same drive / desire to make money off people and to exploit people.. so a person buying more toilet paper then they need knowing they can resell it, is doing the same thing a person buying more pj merch then they need knowing they can resell it.... we'd all agree doing this with food or necessities is worse, but the mentality and drive to do that is the same mentality, which is "I can make money off people" regardless of the item
What’s your opinion on the Ames Brothers recent sales? They are basically flipping their own posters.
I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
posters are not like food and toilet paper... we don't need posters...
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?
I think you answered the question at the end of this post with the first line from this post.
✌🏻
right, I understand food and toilet paper are necessities and posters are not... but you seem to miss the point, expressed in the other sentences besides the first one, that regardless of whether an item is a necessity or not, the practice of hoarding things to resell to people is the same regardless if the item is a necessity or not... it's the same drive / desire to make money off people and to exploit people.. so a person buying more toilet paper then they need knowing they can resell it, is doing the same thing a person buying more pj merch then they need knowing they can resell it.... we'd all agree doing this with food or necessities is worse, but the mentality and drive to do that is the same mentality, which is "I can make money off people" regardless of the item
What’s your opinion on the Ames Brothers recent sales? They are basically flipping their own posters.
They are selling posters that they have made over the last 20 years for market price. Selling the last few prints they have for the going rate. The pricey prints are over 25 years old. If anyone deserves the $$ it's the artists.
I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
posters are not like food and toilet paper... we don't need posters...
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?
I think you answered the question at the end of this post with the first line from this post.
✌🏻
right, I understand food and toilet paper are necessities and posters are not... but you seem to miss the point, expressed in the other sentences besides the first one, that regardless of whether an item is a necessity or not, the practice of hoarding things to resell to people is the same regardless if the item is a necessity or not... it's the same drive / desire to make money off people and to exploit people.. so a person buying more toilet paper then they need knowing they can resell it, is doing the same thing a person buying more pj merch then they need knowing they can resell it.... we'd all agree doing this with food or necessities is worse, but the mentality and drive to do that is the same mentality, which is "I can make money off people" regardless of the item
What’s your opinion on the Ames Brothers recent sales? They are basically flipping their own posters.
I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
posters are not like food and toilet paper... we don't need posters...
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?
I think you answered the question at the end of this post with the first line from this post.
✌🏻
right, I understand food and toilet paper are necessities and posters are not... but you seem to miss the point, expressed in the other sentences besides the first one, that regardless of whether an item is a necessity or not, the practice of hoarding things to resell to people is the same regardless if the item is a necessity or not... it's the same drive / desire to make money off people and to exploit people.. so a person buying more toilet paper then they need knowing they can resell it, is doing the same thing a person buying more pj merch then they need knowing they can resell it.... we'd all agree doing this with food or necessities is worse, but the mentality and drive to do that is the same mentality, which is "I can make money off people" regardless of the item
Agreed. There are levels of asshole-ness, and imo, flippers are on the scale somewhere.
I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
posters are not like food and toilet paper... we don't need posters...
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?
I think you answered the question at the end of this post with the first line from this post.
✌🏻
right, I understand food and toilet paper are necessities and posters are not... but you seem to miss the point, expressed in the other sentences besides the first one, that regardless of whether an item is a necessity or not, the practice of hoarding things to resell to people is the same regardless if the item is a necessity or not... it's the same drive / desire to make money off people and to exploit people.. so a person buying more toilet paper then they need knowing they can resell it, is doing the same thing a person buying more pj merch then they need knowing they can resell it.... we'd all agree doing this with food or necessities is worse, but the mentality and drive to do that is the same mentality, which is "I can make money off people" regardless of the item
What’s your opinion on the Ames Brothers recent sales? They are basically flipping their own posters.
They are selling posters that they have made over the last 20 years for market price. Selling the last few prints they have for the going rate. The pricey prints are over 25 years old. If anyone deserves the $$ it's the artists.
Exactly. If Ames sold those old prints at say half the market price, they'd be scooped up and flipped immediately. Let the artist rake.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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I’m excited to see the posters and merch for the Euro tour. The sticker and shirt designs have been pretty good so far and there have been some really nice posters. Jealous of all attending and patiently waiting for the September shows. 🤘🏻
1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore
I’m excited to see the posters and merch for the Euro tour. The sticker and shirt designs have been pretty good so far and there have been some really nice posters. Jealous of all attending and patiently waiting for the September shows. 🤘🏻
So from everyone’s opinion thus far, the quality of the apparel is just not that good right? Was thinking of getting the green tour shirt, hoodie and black jacket but everything I’m reading makes me question that….
So from everyone’s opinion thus far, the quality of the apparel is just not that good right? Was thinking of getting the green tour shirt, hoodie and black jacket but everything I’m reading makes me question that….
So from everyone’s opinion thus far, the quality of the apparel is just not that good right? Was thinking of getting the green tour shirt, hoodie and black jacket but everything I’m reading makes me question that….
the hoodie so far is very nice. Made by independent trading company (I think thats the brand). I still have PJ sweatshirt from 2003 that they made
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and that has been pretty consistent during the 20 years I've made posters.... so even if you establish yourself as a name in the poster design world, and bands / merch companies know your work and seek you out, they still offer you peanuts and if you ask for slightly more or wha t the work is worth, then you are "difficult to work with"... so the poster artists almost always gets screwed, simply by just trying to get fair compensation for the work bands and merch companies want.
what's even more nuts with this weird niche career, you can get hired by a well known touring band to do say a diptych for a run of two nights... spend months on it, keep the band / merch company up to date with process shots as you progress... then upon delivering the poster you were hired to do and signed their contract which has no clause regarding terminating finished work upon delivery, and agreed that you would be compensated in posters, which if you sold them all would have made you 10-12k and spent 6+ weeks working on, they can go "we decided to 'pivot' a different direction"... and then they give you a $1000 kill fee.... so they break their own contract of hiring you, and ignore that there is no language or clause about payment for killing a job upon delivery of final work, then upon delivery say they don't want what they hired you to do and approved along the way, then rug pull your sales out from under you and toss you $1000 as if that is fair compensation... then when you diplomatically and professionally remind them of their own contract and what they agreed to and how this is bad business and bad form, you are then labeled as "difficult to work with" and don't get jobs with that band again. And I hate to be agist, but nowadays a lot of the time you are dealing with younger and younger people who have bad business and people skills who think because they work for such and such band they are a big deal and have power over you...which sadly, they do have power over you... so even when you are correct and in the right and stand up for yourself when you get screwed, you get more screwed and labeled as a problem.
I was told by someone in the merch world that they knew of a company feeding AI a band's catalog of past posters to teach AI how to make posters for that band.
if you stand up and demand to be treated fairly, there's always a line of artists behind you stoked for the opportunity who will work for much less, and will work for exposure and building their portfolio.. I was one of those artists when I was young and starting... such and such band contacts you and you go "OH MY GOD! I LOVE THAT BAND OF COURSE I WILL DO A POSTER FOR NOTHING!!" And companies know this... it's true in music, in sports, in movies and tv...
the solution would be just pay the artists fair compensation.. again it's the same with streaming services or record labels not paying the musicians fairly... to Shecky's point if two artists spend the same time working on their poster and one poster hits and the other doesn't... they are not paid the same amount for their time. You spend weeks on a poster, get 50 to sell, and then if it doesn't hit with people or a band's fan base just isn't that into posters, you sell 5 posters instead of 50 and make like $300 for weeks of work instead of $3000... and even $3000 probably works out to a poor hourly wage for weeks of time
I love getting to make posters, it's the reason i quit working as an employee for PJ, i wanted to spend all my time making posters and only posters.. I love getting to make art for my favorite bands, getting to tattoo a concert into rock and roll history and the history of a band, getting to listen to music and see what images it evokes in your mind and then trying to create them, getting to be inspired by music to make art for some of my favorite musicians of all time, getting to make a living drawing, getting to work in a field and medium full of some of the most talented artists around... and I bet most of my peers feel the same way, we love this.... it'd just be nice if getting fairly compensated for the time and energy wasn't always an uphill battle and was just fair.... but there's plenty of people in countless other professions who struggle with the exact same thing.
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midjourney does the same thing human artists do, it looks at other art and cross references it (sometimes steals it, which human artists do too).. it's just AI software can look at ALL art in nano seconds, whereas the human artist has to go to museums and flip through books and consume art the human way and it takes years and years and lifetime of practice and study and honing your talents... AI can look at all art in the blink of a human eye and go "i took your few prompts and made something far beyond what you prompted me to make... you wanna see it in Art Deco...boom... art nouveau, here ya go... steam punk, bam... comic book illustration style, done... or how bout as an oil painting, here ya go "
it's insane... I naively never though computers would be able to make art... computers make amazing art.... and like human artists, they struggle with hands.. hands are tricky
the aspect about it that really bothers me is this talking point that Ai is just "another tool for artists"... it is not another tool, it is an artist... I can't go to Emek and say "Emek i need to do a poster for Pearl Jam, I want to make a panda bear riding an elephant through a river of colors in a surreal landscape... can you whip me up a few different compositions on that?" and then I take what Emek did, maybe change it a little or not at all and go "I made this!"
but there are artists who use AI to create their composition for them, create their color scheme, and they they just recreate what Ai did for them... so you won't know if an artist's image was their own unique composition and color scheme and details or if they are just copying an AI generated image.... it's basically cheating and not having to pay another artist to do all your heavy lifting for you... and I've heard artists admit as much that they just use AI to get a general idea for their composition, but they then make their own image based off that.... then you didn't come up with your composition did you.... you had slave machine labor do it for you for free.
man i sure get sucked into these conversations!! Okay back outside again, away from the machine!!
In my experience, fair pay comes when the employee has some leverage. Otherwise, most businesses will pay the minimum they can get away with. There are exceptions of course, but few and far between.
I managed to score a few prints (including DC) but Toronto had been sold out.
Brad and his girlfriend were literally under siege. I felt really bad for all of the other talented artists that were there. The look on their faces was like "what the hell is going on".
Fast forward a few years and after a party night I am circling the showbox looking for a parking spot. It's Sunday morning and the 10 club was having the poster show. We ended up being around the corner which I knew was not good. When we got in my wife immediately got in the 10 club line and I went to score a few prints. As luck would have it Brad brought one of his last remaining Toronto prints which I was really happy to finally get.
I joined my wife in the 10 club line. The guy in front of us bought the last Benaroya vinyl set that they had. $400. I was bummed out. After consoling myself with a few beers later I went on Ebay. Some guy from Lake Stevens was there earlier than me and had it listed for $1250. I bought it and was happy that he made it available.
I've seen both sides of the reselling thing and can understand the frustration of missing out because of a flipper. That being said I was out of the country for the Seattle shows and would buy a hockey jersey today for $200.
1992- Lollapalooza, Irvine, California
Nothing since then. I suck.2016- Fenway Park, Boston - Both glorious nights
2022- Oakland Night 2
2024 Sacramento, CA
Me too!
Chicago 1 9.5.2023. Chicago 2 9.7.2023.
*Noblesville 9.10.2023* (Gutted)