There's another AP UFO poster on ebay for $400. Not a shock, the disappointing thing is their ebay username is "lostdogs91"....so it seems like a potential real fan flipping stuff.
What?! There's no way a Pearl Jam fan would flip a poster.
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Bravo. Well explained
brixton 93
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Would the band taking orders and printing as many as needed work ?
Of course the artist would then need to be paid from that if it reduced AP demand
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
I'm curious. You wrote that you think flippers won't go away and I agree. It's too easy an business these days. But is there a solution to make it less interesting and profitable to them?
Like, don't sell a certain number, but sell for a certain time (1-2 months), so the item loses it's limitation for a little while at least. That way flippers will perhaps lose focus on said item after a little while and everyone else gets enough time to purchase a poster. I could imagine a reason why people buy from flippers is not just the limitation and items being sold out immediately, but also because no one is (or should not be) online all the time and misses sales like these, so the time period sale at least enables people to pay at the item's original price for a bit longer.
Just an idea though. Would be curious to hear your thoughts here @bradklausen.
What do even people do with a big PJ soccer ball taking up room. I mean, would even 0,5% play with it or put it in the garage with the rest of the soccer stuff.
And I doubt more than 1,4% would even display it.
Well, the general concert goer might buy one and actually use it during this EURO 2024 summer ofc.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Really sorry about those shitty circumstances Brad. I only have a handful of posters and don't collect them but I queued up to get your baseball poster at Fenway in 2018 and got a rude awakening as to how cynical people can be. Was my first PJ gig in the US and first experience of how nuts it was-just seeing people buy 10, 15, 20 posters. Flipping=scalping and it's just not on. Have you contacted any of these people yourself? And more importantly would you have any suggestions that would make it harder for them? Don't apologise for the rant mate I'm sure we'd all be incensed at people profiting off our work through no effort of their own.
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Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
As ever Brad, very thoughtful and well articulated response. You really are a breath of fresh
I guess one way of dealing with flippers would be to do the timed run each time, printing enough to satisfy all demand but Im not sure that would ever get approval !!
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Isn’t part of the solution to charge more for the posters? If you have 1000s of people wanting to buy something there is 100 of at the price it is marketed at, then the price is too low. Higher prices will deter flippers on the margin, more posters into the hands of “real fans” (of course, those who can afford the higher prices, for better or worse). Sure it’s not “fair” to fans who can pay $100 for an AP but not $250, but the $100 isn’t “fair” to those who could only pay $40. Taking it a step further, segment the market with other variants, limited prints, etc (not that that is no work to do!). No silver bullet that will eliminate those who seek to exploit market inefficiencies…but directly reducing inefficiencies will reduce the problem.
How will that ever work. The more money it is the more the flipper gets . Makes no sense charging more for the real fans. Flippers will buy at any price and make money still the same . Where as a fan may not be able to afford more money.
brixton 93
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
unfortunately "real fans" and flippers are sometimes the same people
Noblesville 5.7.2010. Lexington 4.26.2016. Nashville 9.16.2022. St Louis 9.18.2022. Chicago 1 9.5.2023. Chicago 2 9.7.2023. *Noblesville 9.10.2023* (Gutted) Seattle 5.30.2024 Noblesville 8.26.2024 Chicago 8.29.2024 Chicago 8.31.2024
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Isn’t part of the solution to charge more for the posters? If you have 1000s of people wanting to buy something there is 100 of at the price it is marketed at, then the price is too low. Higher prices will deter flippers on the margin, more posters into the hands of “real fans” (of course, those who can afford the higher prices, for better or worse). Sure it’s not “fair” to fans who can pay $100 for an AP but not $250, but the $100 isn’t “fair” to those who could only pay $40. Taking it a step further, segment the market with other variants, limited prints, etc (not that that is no work to do!). No silver bullet that will eliminate those who seek to exploit market inefficiencies…but directly reducing inefficiencies will reduce the problem.
This is the weirdest logic I've seen.
Timed presale is the best way to give everyone a chance to snag one. Like with the vaults. Great setup by Pj for those.
Also, variants are for the same people who champion the CG animals outside of Mos Eisley. Or who want to have the option of having Deckard be a replicant one day but not the other. Signed and numbered sure But variants.... Naw -- go-go Power Singular Artistic Vision Rangers.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
unfortunately "real fans" and flippers are sometimes the same people
Oh I agree they 100% the people on here. I meant people who were at the show and wanted to frame a poster of the show as a nice piece. Instead of a magpie swooping on something shiny.
brixton 93
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Isn’t part of the solution to charge more for the posters? If you have 1000s of people wanting to buy something there is 100 of at the price it is marketed at, then the price is too low. Higher prices will deter flippers on the margin, more posters into the hands of “real fans” (of course, those who can afford the higher prices, for better or worse). Sure it’s not “fair” to fans who can pay $100 for an AP but not $250, but the $100 isn’t “fair” to those who could only pay $40. Taking it a step further, segment the market with other variants, limited prints, etc (not that that is no work to do!). No silver bullet that will eliminate those who seek to exploit market inefficiencies…but directly reducing inefficiencies will reduce the problem.
This is the weirdest logic I've seen.
Timed presale is the best way to give everyone a chance to snag one. Like with the vaults. Great setup by Pj for those.
Also, variants are for the same people who champion the CG animals outside of Mos Eisley. Or who want to have the option of having Deckard be a replicant one day but not the other. Signed and numbered sure But variants.... Naw -- go-go Power Singular Artistic Vision Rangers.
Supply and demand is the weirdest logic you have seen? It's 100% clear that if the posters are selling out that fast AND people are then immediately paying more for them on a secondary market, that they are underpriced.
Now - I can appreciate anyone that is willing to keep prices more reasonable AND work to try and limit flippers for sure. And for the fans, a timed presale is the best answer to get what you want for a cheaper price. Unsure if that is truly the best for the artist.
They are not underpriced at all. There is a limited amount that's the issue. It's down to timings and speed of purchase. People paying more on secondary markets is an act of desperation. Making things dearer just makes it dearer each step. It stops nothing. People here seem to have endless money for merch .
brixton 93
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Isn’t part of the solution to charge more for the posters? If you have 1000s of people wanting to buy something there is 100 of at the price it is marketed at, then the price is too low. Higher prices will deter flippers on the margin, more posters into the hands of “real fans” (of course, those who can afford the higher prices, for better or worse). Sure it’s not “fair” to fans who can pay $100 for an AP but not $250, but the $100 isn’t “fair” to those who could only pay $40. Taking it a step further, segment the market with other variants, limited prints, etc (not that that is no work to do!). No silver bullet that will eliminate those who seek to exploit market inefficiencies…but directly reducing inefficiencies will reduce the problem.
This is the weirdest logic I've seen.
Timed presale is the best way to give everyone a chance to snag one. Like with the vaults. Great setup by Pj for those.
Also, variants are for the same people who champion the CG animals outside of Mos Eisley. Or who want to have the option of having Deckard be a replicant one day but not the other. Signed and numbered sure But variants.... Naw -- go-go Power Singular Artistic Vision Rangers.
Supply and demand is the weirdest logic you have seen? It's 100% clear that if the posters are selling out that fast AND people are then immediately paying more for them on a secondary market, that they are underpriced.
Now - I can appreciate anyone that is willing to keep prices more reasonable AND work to try and limit flippers for sure. And for the fans, a timed presale is the best answer to get what you want for a cheaper price. Unsure if that is truly the best for the artist.
This isn't about "supply" but flippability. If Brad had 10.000 posters instead for the same price, the problem would be less. Because more supply.
But with the constant of limited supply, I am certain that the flipper number will stay pretty much intact with a pricehike and posters will be flipped for even higher prices. You will not get rid of flippers by hiking up the price. But just pricing out a lot of genuine fans.
So as many posters flipped and a bunch of Billy Zanes being able to get one. Less chance for fans on the lower deck who will freeze to death without a poster in hand.
At the same time, maybe that whole "artist variant" thing is just for people who are buying as investments to cash in (flippers and flippers-light being that whole scene). Then hike up the prices, but make the ordinary show poster as easy to get for people as possible.
And to end things, I imagine your theory of "limited supply" actually being better economically for the artist than a timed window could be correct.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
the supply and demand aspect.... you'll never know the full demand... you could say the band could take pre orders but then what about all the people who aren't part of the ten club, who just show up to the concert and walk past the merch tables and go "on hey cool poster, I am going to buy one"... so if you only print enough for those who pre ordered them, the band misses out on possible sales from any one who didn't pre order and the fan who didn't know they had to pre order one misses out... and the pre order would most likely be done without getting to see the poster first hand, so if you pre-ordered and got a design you truly did not like, you'd be mad you paid for it.
if you print say 10,000... what if the design doesn't resonate with people and they don't sell well, then you are stuck with and paid for posters you can't sell. There's stacks of old posters that didn't sell well at the ten club warehouse, same for all bands who make posters as merch... most certainly stacks of old posters that didn't sell well in phish's warehouse or dmb's warehouse
if you charge more, you might price out flippers but then you also price out everyone else... I know this first hand as this is what I did with the 2005 South America poster... I made them $300 to deter flippers, and I deterred regular people too.. for years... then I had posters that were not selling and later I'd drop the price of that poster twice throughout the years just to try and get them out of my flat files.
the posters are a crap shoot... you never know exactly how they will sell... I was super stoked on my 3 2022 poster set, very proud of the illustrations and couldn't wait for the fans to see them... I still have a stack of Werchter and Amsterdam posters... I've had PJ posters not sell out before, but not to the level those two posters did not sell out. You just never know... so how do you plan in advance for an unknown outcome? Jeff is an artist and likes all kinds of different art and artists, he might love what an artist submits for their design and think it is killer, doesn't mean you all will...
art is subjective right... we all have our own tastes... so you just don't know what the demand will be... you don't know who will impulsively buy the poster upon walking past it at the show.
Every pj poster sale I am never entirely sure how it will go... I see these other new artists come in and charge more and they sell all their prints, so I think I should raise my prices... I raise a price of a poster and it doesn't sell as well... so next sale I think "I over charged and left money on the table", so the sale after that one I undercharge and it sells out immediately and I think "I charged too little and left money on the table"... the napa poster for example, other artists were charging $120.. I charged $100... sold out in a minute...and I thought I shoulda sold them for $120.. I could have charged $150 and I am pretty sure they would still have sold out just as quick... if I had charged $150 that would have made me 10k more (before taxes) and as a feast or famine starving artist that's a lot to leave on the table and to not have to pay my mortgage and buy food and pay bills for a few more months... point being every pj poster I do I am never 100% sure how you all will respond... I have designs I have done for pj and other bands that I think are the best thing I have ever done... and they don't sell well... sometimes I think i have my finger on the pulse of the pj poster fan / collector community and sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong....
it's all a crap shoot... unless the design is right out the gate stunning and mind blowing and done by a big name artist, you just don't know how people are going to react
as I mentioned, there is no solution, solutions have been tried and people get around the solutions... it's greed and making a quick buck, so until we fix that aspect of human nature, it's never going away.
This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?
Noblesville 5.7.2010. Lexington 4.26.2016. Nashville 9.16.2022. St Louis 9.18.2022. Chicago 1 9.5.2023. Chicago 2 9.7.2023. *Noblesville 9.10.2023* (Gutted) Seattle 5.30.2024 Noblesville 8.26.2024 Chicago 8.29.2024 Chicago 8.31.2024
Artists want and need people to flip their posters. It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.
i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
Isn’t part of the solution to charge more for the posters? If you have 1000s of people wanting to buy something there is 100 of at the price it is marketed at, then the price is too low. Higher prices will deter flippers on the margin, more posters into the hands of “real fans” (of course, those who can afford the higher prices, for better or worse). Sure it’s not “fair” to fans who can pay $100 for an AP but not $250, but the $100 isn’t “fair” to those who could only pay $40. Taking it a step further, segment the market with other variants, limited prints, etc (not that that is no work to do!). No silver bullet that will eliminate those who seek to exploit market inefficiencies…but directly reducing inefficiencies will reduce the problem.
This is the weirdest logic I've seen.
Timed presale is the best way to give everyone a chance to snag one. Like with the vaults. Great setup by Pj for those.
Also, variants are for the same people who champion the CG animals outside of Mos Eisley. Or who want to have the option of having Deckard be a replicant one day but not the other. Signed and numbered sure But variants.... Naw -- go-go Power Singular Artistic Vision Rangers.
Supply and demand is the weirdest logic you have seen? It's 100% clear that if the posters are selling out that fast AND people are then immediately paying more for them on a secondary market, that they are underpriced.
Now - I can appreciate anyone that is willing to keep prices more reasonable AND work to try and limit flippers for sure. And for the fans, a timed presale is the best answer to get what you want for a cheaper price. Unsure if that is truly the best for the artist.
This isn't about "supply" but flippability. If Brad had 10.000 posters instead for the same price, the problem would be less. Because more supply.
But with the constant of limited supply, I am certain that the flipper number will stay pretty much intact with a pricehike and posters will be flipped for even higher prices. You will not get rid of flippers by hiking up the price. But just pricing out a lot of genuine fans.
So as many posters flipped and a bunch of Billy Zanes being able to get one. Less chance for fans on the lower deck who will freeze to death without a poster in hand.
At the same time, maybe that whole "artist variant" thing is just for people who are buying as investments to cash in (flippers and flippers-light being that whole scene). Then hike up the prices, but make the ordinary show poster as easy to get for people as possible.
And to end things, I imagine your theory of "limited supply" actually being better economically for the artist than a timed window could be correct.
the artist variant thing is for the artists to be able to hopefully make a little more money... if the artists copy is different then what is at the show, the artist can charge a little more and maybe guarantee they will sell all their copies... it's the merch company's way of trying to help the artist maybe make a little more on each poster.
From the outside you can see a poster sell out and do the math in your head and go "oh so and so made 12k on that sale today, must be nice" but you don't see the months that went by where maybe that artist wasn't making ANY money, and that 12k comes long just at the nick of time to make up for periods of no income and some of it is already going to pay for past bills.
as I stated often poster artists are highly under paid... and we get paid in product that we then have to sell in order to see any income for our work, and if the product doesn't sell you don't get paid. It's a weird gig. PJ gives posters artists the most posters of any band / merch companies... when the big baseball stadium shows come around PJ / Tsurt gives artists far more then any other bands / merch companies and artists do very well generally from those sales... you'd be amazed at how hard it is to get a merch company to agree to giving you 40 posters as your fee..... or even harder, getting a design fee in cash plus some number of copies you can sell.
Imagine having a job where after you complete what you were hired to do (make the art), you don't get paid for it but then have to do other jobs (advertisement / promotion, manage an online store , handle customer service, run a "shipping dept.") to get paid and your payment is not guaranteed and could be much less then you expected.
So the variants are for the artists to hopefully help them maybe make a little more then they would have normally.
Comments
as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.
As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"...
so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh
I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults.
And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later. Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.
I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation....
the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever.
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Of course the artist would then need to be paid from that if it reduced AP demand
But is there a solution to make it less interesting and profitable to them?
Like, don't sell a certain number, but sell for a certain time (1-2 months), so the item loses it's limitation for a little while at least. That way flippers will perhaps lose focus on said item after a little while and everyone else gets enough time to purchase a poster.
I could imagine a reason why people buy from flippers is not just the limitation and items being sold out immediately, but also because no one is (or should not be) online all the time and misses sales like these, so the time period sale at least enables people to pay at the item's original price for a bit longer.
Just an idea though. Would be curious to hear your thoughts here @bradklausen.
2005 - Calgary, Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, Kitchener, Montréal, Ottawa
2006 - Verona, Torino, Pistoia
2007 - Munich
2013 - Calgary
2014 - Vienna
2016 - Quebec, Ottawa, Toronto N1, Toronto N2, Pemberton
2018 - Padova
2022 - Frankfurt, Krakow, Quebec, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto
And I doubt more than 1,4% would even display it.
Well, the general concert goer might buy one and actually use it during this EURO 2024 summer ofc.
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I guess one way of dealing with flippers would be to do the timed run each time, printing enough to satisfy all demand but Im not sure that would ever get approval !!
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Chicago 1 9.5.2023. Chicago 2 9.7.2023.
*Noblesville 9.10.2023* (Gutted)
Seattle 5.30.2024 Noblesville 8.26.2024 Chicago 8.29.2024 Chicago 8.31.2024
Timed presale is the best way to give everyone a chance to snag one. Like with the vaults. Great setup by Pj for those.
Also, variants are for the same people who champion the CG animals outside of Mos Eisley. Or who want to have the option of having Deckard be a replicant one day but not the other. Signed and numbered sure But variants.... Naw -- go-go Power Singular Artistic Vision Rangers.
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Now - I can appreciate anyone that is willing to keep prices more reasonable AND work to try and limit flippers for sure. And for the fans, a timed presale is the best answer to get what you want for a cheaper price. Unsure if that is truly the best for the artist.
There is a limited amount that's the issue. It's down to timings and speed of purchase.
People paying more on secondary markets is an act of desperation.
Making things dearer just makes it dearer each step. It stops nothing.
People here seem to have endless money for merch .
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Chicago 1 (August 20, 2016)
Chicago 2 (August 22, 2016)
Ft. Worth 1 (September 13, 2023)
Ft. Worth 2 (September 15, 2023)
This isn't about "supply" but flippability. If Brad had 10.000 posters instead for the same price, the problem would be less. Because more supply.
But with the constant of limited supply, I am certain that the flipper number will stay pretty much intact with a pricehike and posters will be flipped for even higher prices. You will not get rid of flippers by hiking up the price. But just pricing out a lot of genuine fans.
So as many posters flipped and a bunch of Billy Zanes being able to get one.
Less chance for fans on the lower deck who will freeze to death without a poster in hand.
At the same time, maybe that whole "artist variant" thing is just for people who are buying as investments to cash in (flippers and flippers-light being that whole scene). Then hike up the prices, but make the ordinary show poster as easy to get for people as possible.
And to end things, I imagine your theory of "limited supply" actually being better economically for the artist than a timed window could be correct.
if you print say 10,000... what if the design doesn't resonate with people and they don't sell well, then you are stuck with and paid for posters you can't sell. There's stacks of old posters that didn't sell well at the ten club warehouse, same for all bands who make posters as merch... most certainly stacks of old posters that didn't sell well in phish's warehouse or dmb's warehouse
if you charge more, you might price out flippers but then you also price out everyone else... I know this first hand as this is what I did with the 2005 South America poster... I made them $300 to deter flippers, and I deterred regular people too.. for years... then I had posters that were not selling and later I'd drop the price of that poster twice throughout the years just to try and get them out of my flat files.
the posters are a crap shoot... you never know exactly how they will sell... I was super stoked on my 3 2022 poster set, very proud of the illustrations and couldn't wait for the fans to see them... I still have a stack of Werchter and Amsterdam posters... I've had PJ posters not sell out before, but not to the level those two posters did not sell out. You just never know... so how do you plan in advance for an unknown outcome? Jeff is an artist and likes all kinds of different art and artists, he might love what an artist submits for their design and think it is killer, doesn't mean you all will...
art is subjective right... we all have our own tastes... so you just don't know what the demand will be... you don't know who will impulsively buy the poster upon walking past it at the show.
Every pj poster sale I am never entirely sure how it will go... I see these other new artists come in and charge more and they sell all their prints, so I think I should raise my prices... I raise a price of a poster and it doesn't sell as well... so next sale I think "I over charged and left money on the table", so the sale after that one I undercharge and it sells out immediately and I think "I charged too little and left money on the table"... the napa poster for example, other artists were charging $120.. I charged $100... sold out in a minute...and I thought I shoulda sold them for $120.. I could have charged $150 and I am pretty sure they would still have sold out just as quick... if I had charged $150 that would have made me 10k more (before taxes) and as a feast or famine starving artist that's a lot to leave on the table and to not have to pay my mortgage and buy food and pay bills for a few more months... point being every pj poster I do I am never 100% sure how you all will respond... I have designs I have done for pj and other bands that I think are the best thing I have ever done... and they don't sell well... sometimes I think i have my finger on the pulse of the pj poster fan / collector community and sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong....
it's all a crap shoot... unless the design is right out the gate stunning and mind blowing and done by a big name artist, you just don't know how people are going to react
as I mentioned, there is no solution, solutions have been tried and people get around the solutions... it's greed and making a quick buck, so until we fix that aspect of human nature, it's never going away.
Chicago 1 (August 20, 2016)
Chicago 2 (August 22, 2016)
Ft. Worth 1 (September 13, 2023)
Ft. Worth 2 (September 15, 2023)
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Chicago 1 9.5.2023. Chicago 2 9.7.2023.
*Noblesville 9.10.2023* (Gutted)
Seattle 5.30.2024 Noblesville 8.26.2024 Chicago 8.29.2024 Chicago 8.31.2024
From the outside you can see a poster sell out and do the math in your head and go "oh so and so made 12k on that sale today, must be nice" but you don't see the months that went by where maybe that artist wasn't making ANY money, and that 12k comes long just at the nick of time to make up for periods of no income and some of it is already going to pay for past bills.
as I stated often poster artists are highly under paid... and we get paid in product that we then have to sell in order to see any income for our work, and if the product doesn't sell you don't get paid. It's a weird gig. PJ gives posters artists the most posters of any band / merch companies... when the big baseball stadium shows come around PJ / Tsurt gives artists far more then any other bands / merch companies and artists do very well generally from those sales... you'd be amazed at how hard it is to get a merch company to agree to giving you 40 posters as your fee..... or even harder, getting a design fee in cash plus some number of copies you can sell.
Imagine having a job where after you complete what you were hired to do (make the art), you don't get paid for it but then have to do other jobs (advertisement / promotion, manage an online store , handle customer service, run a "shipping dept.") to get paid and your payment is not guaranteed and could be much less then you expected.
So the variants are for the artists to hopefully help them maybe make a little more then they would have normally.