Have never been to Vegas before and this seemed like the right time to visit for the show but the amount of points required to fly there was atrocious…with no direct flights remaining due to the late announcement and long weekend coupled with EDM festival and Vegas being Vegas.
So I never entered for the show but kept thinking about it. It dawned on me one day to look at flights into LA and surprisingly found plenty of options and was able to choose ideal times. May not be possible for everyone to rent a car and drive over to Vegas but you only live once?
To quote the 10C from Newsletter #8: "Please understand we have a lot of members and it is very hard to please everybody. If you are one of those unhappy people...please call 1-900-IDN-TCAR."
"Me knowing the truth, I can not concur."
1996: Toronto - 1998: Chicago, Montreal, Barrie - 2000: Montreal, Toronto - 2002: Seattle X2 (Key Arena) - 2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal, Seattle (Benaroya Hall) - 2004: Reading, Toledo, Grand Rapids - 2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Quebec City - 2006: Toronto X2, Albany, Hartford, Grand Rapids, Cleveland - 2007: Chicago (Vic Theatre) - 2008: NYC X2, Hartford, Mansfield X2 - 2009: Toronto, Chicago X2, Seattle X2, Philadelphia X4 - 2010: Columbus, Noblesville, Cleveland, Buffalo, Hartford - 2011: Montreal, Toronto X2, Ottawa, Hamilton - 2012: Missoula - 2013: London, Chicago, Buffalo, Hartford - 2014: Detroit, Moline - 2015: NYC (Global Citizen Festival) - 2016: Greenville, Toronto X2, Chicago 1 - 2017: Brooklyn (RRHOF Induction) - 2018: Chicago 1, Boston 1 - 2022: Fresno, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto, NYC, Camden - 2023: St. Paul X2, Austin X2 - 2024: Vancouver X2, Portland, Sacramento, Noblesville, Philadelphia X2, Baltimore
It’s not just Vegas. Domestic flights all over the country are the highest I ever remember them being right now.
2010: Cleveland 2012: Atlanta 2013: London ONT / Wrigley Field / Pittsburgh / Buffalo / San Diego / Los Angeles I / Los Angeles II 2014: Cincinnati / St. Louis / Tulsa / Lincoln / Detroit / Denver 2015: New York City 2016: Ft. Lauderdale / Miami / Jacksonville / Greenville / Hampton / Columbia / Lexington / Philly II / New York City II / Toronto II / Bonnaroo / Telluride / Fenway I / Wrigley I / Wrigley - II / TOTD - Philadelphia, San Francisco 2017: Ohana Fest (EV) 2018: Amsterdam I / Amsterdam II / Seattle I / Seattle II / Boston I / Boston II 2021: Asbury Park / Ohana Encore 1 / Ohana Encore 2 2022: Phoenix / LA I / LA II / Quebec City / Ottawa / New York City / Camden / Nashville / St. Louis / Denver 2023: St. Paul II 2024: Las Vegas I / Las Vegas II / New York City I / New York City II / Philly I / Philly II / Baltimore
It’s not just Vegas. Domestic flights all over the country are the highest I ever remember them being right now.
I think it still depends on when and where, though. Our flight home from St Louis on Monday morning is dirt cheap, and our flight out to Nashville on Thursday was way less than we were expecting. I was honestly surprised.
"I'm a lucky man, to count on both hands the [shows I've done]. Some folks just have one, others they got none..."
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 |
Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him. He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
Vegas was WAY more than I expected so I have to give mine up. Flights from Denver are $500 a piece and a cheap hotel is still $350+. Just not worth it right now. I keep hoping that flights will go down and maybe ill go
See this right here is what I don’t get. Why would anyone put in lottery request for tickets to a destination show without first looking into what the flight & hotel cost are beforehand?
And I’m not trying to be disrespectful, so apologies if it’s taken that way. Im just curious as to how much cheaper you were expecting flights & a hotel to be in Vegas? Because the prices you mentioned have been pretty much the norm for a while now.
Because of the system and the inability to expect to land seats to all shows I'd imagine many put in for all shows and then based on what they are chosen for and/or their seat location for said show will determine one's ability or desire to attend. This is a system PJ has encouraged on several levels.
The caveat now being with "PJ Premium" people can pony up and pay crazy money for a guarantee.
I'd rather MSG but landed Vegas. Can't use them now so I'll sell once able. If the ability to sell F2F is ultimately removed and the inability to transfer seats to others remains....I'd imagine a lot less sold out shows are in the future.
Giventofly and Lerxst understand the matter very well and have posted some valuable information that is accurate IMHO.
All these conspiracy theories are kind of silly. This is nothing new, TM sticking it to the fans and getting away with it. They defeated Pearl Jam's attempt to make changes. They were later sued and settled by giving $5 vouchers that never worked. Then they bought Live Nation and managed to get that through the Department of Justice (no doubt spending millions on lawyers and lobbyists). They have been doing it for years in one form or another. Before platinum pricing or market pricing they made deals with ticket brokers, auction sites, or some other way to sell them at a higher price. They have been holding back seats from the public and using them for profit since the mid 80s when they tried to put a stop to the owners of ticket terminals printing tickets for themselves. This is nothing new, it is just a lot more visible and blatant.
The band probably hates this arrangement and the fact they have no leverage. No doubt they are complicit, but they have had to accept TM's terms since 96. I would guess that the only negotiation is over the percentage of 10C tix and the "face value" pricing. TM's position is simply "great, here are your 10c tix, which are the most valuable and desired tickets, at the lowest price we can offer. We do not offer this many tickets for any other band. We get to unconditionally do whatever we want with the rest. This confidentiality clause prevents you from discussing our negotiations or terms." The band fights for 10C tix at a reasonable price, and has no say over the remaining tickets. Sucks, but that is the way it is.
F2F falls within TM's control and is just another way they screw fans. This wont be discussed by the 10C or the band. They rarely, if ever, communicate on these types of issues. You may be a loyal fan that pays your dues every year and spent hundreds (or thousands) for tickets, but that does not give you the right to know the confidential details of business arrangements. TM made a promise to open F2F, but they never said when. This is intentional.
And TM is being sued again for this current pricing scheme. Perhaps consumers will get some relief, but I am not holding my breath.
You may be correct in saying this is nothing new for TM and just another example of "TM sticking it to the fans and getting away with it." However, in my mind to stop there is dismissive and oblivious to what is actually happening. This is PJ and the 10c being complicit. THIS IS NEW. Why they are complicit is irrelevant, and in my mind and does not deserve a hall pass or any protection, frankly. Given this circumstance they all should be called out. You are also correct in stating that as fans we do not reserve the right to know about the confidential details of their business arrangements. I never considered that we did...however what fans do deserve is transparency and communication from the fan club which dues are paid to for reasons such as this. The fan club is a vehicle of communication from the band to its fans on all things....not just buy a new vinyl or donate to the Vitalogy Foundation . The conspiracies you speak of are certainly easy to craft considering the radio silence from PJ/10c/TM. Some may think the silence is due to contract terms.....some may think the silence is due to guilt of exploiting fans.........either way there is silence and for me that smells of guilt.
You aren't holding your breath for TM being sued and consumers getting relief...... Some aren't holding their breath for answers from PJ/10c....
Which hurts worse? Now maybe you see why so many are upset and won't just chalk it up to TM being TM......
What is (relatively) new is TM's latest way to squeeze the fans. PJ being complicit is not. They have had to make a deal with the devil to play live for their fans across the US since 96. If being complicit to this new level of profiteering is somehow more offensive than in the past, that is fair, but that position fails to really understand that it has always been this way in one form or another. To me, it is just more of the same, and like I said more visible and blatant. Nothings changed, but the surrounding bullshit that has grown.
Same goes for the band and the 10C. They are notoriously tight lipped about everything. This is not new. Look at the Camden ticket allocations. Not a peep. Raleigh. Baltimore. Just a few examples, but there are more, many more. And it is unlikely that it will change. While they do throw us a nugget of information every once in awhile, they are silent most of the time. Not saying it is right, it is just the way they operate. Take it or leave it.
I do understand why people are upset. I am not upset, but very frustrated with the way things work these days. The current system hurts us consumers and it seems to get harder and harder to get decent tix to a PJ show at a fair price. Forget NYC which is my home show. What exactly do you expect them to say?
"The fan club is a vehicle of communication from the band to its fans on all things....not just buy a new vinyl or donate to the Vitalogy Foundation"
Actually, since about 2006 or so, the fan club has been about exactly the latter, more expensive memberships, expansive merch offerings (dog collars for Pete's sake), buying new vinyl, delayed fan club singles, charities, or whatever. There were no crazy lines for merch on the 2000 or 2003 tours (as best as I can recall). At the end of the day, membership is about the community, access to merch, and a shot at 10C tickets. This band is also notoriously private. 10C most definitely is not a vehicle of communication on "all things."
EDIT: At the end of the day, membership is about a shot at 10C tickets with no guarantees that you will get your money back if are successful and cannot go.
"all things" as in what Stone ate for lunch or what band Matt is practicing with today no....but to dismiss that the Ten Club literally is the vehicle that informs us fans about the tour and the actual ticketing process only to say that the band is notoriously "tight lipped" in, what can be perceived as, an effort to transfer blame to TM and its ways of "sticking it to the fan."
I understand your point about Raleigh or Baltimore to a minor degree but I'm also not sure if you've seen this...I'm not sure how much more transparency there could have been in the instance of Raleigh...nobody is even asking for this long of a note or message.....even starting with when F2F sales will open would be a huge positive step....
I have seen it, is that what you are hoping for with respect to ticketing? The band and the 10C has no control over F2F so you will not be hearing from them. Even if they did, you would most likely not be hearing from them. There is no transfer of blame, I blame TM.
Vegas was WAY more than I expected so I have to give mine up. Flights from Denver are $500 a piece and a cheap hotel is still $350+. Just not worth it right now. I keep hoping that flights will go down and maybe ill go
See this right here is what I don’t get. Why would anyone put in lottery request for tickets to a destination show without first looking into what the flight & hotel cost are beforehand?
And I’m not trying to be disrespectful, so apologies if it’s taken that way. Im just curious as to how much cheaper you were expecting flights & a hotel to be in Vegas? Because the prices you mentioned have been pretty much the norm for a while now.
I go to Vegas about once a year. I've never even come close to the prices that I see the weekend PJ is there. It's both the flights (from Chicago in my case) and the hotel. It would literally cost me about 3X the price for hotel and flight as it cost when I just went there in November.
There IS a reason for the high rates in Vegas.........EDC is in town!
~~~~~Reason enough NOT to go to the show for me~~~~~
Giventofly and Lerxst understand the matter very well and have posted some valuable information that is accurate IMHO.
All these conspiracy theories are kind of silly. This is nothing new, TM sticking it to the fans and getting away with it. They defeated Pearl Jam's attempt to make changes. They were later sued and settled by giving $5 vouchers that never worked. Then they bought Live Nation and managed to get that through the Department of Justice (no doubt spending millions on lawyers and lobbyists). They have been doing it for years in one form or another. Before platinum pricing or market pricing they made deals with ticket brokers, auction sites, or some other way to sell them at a higher price. They have been holding back seats from the public and using them for profit since the mid 80s when they tried to put a stop to the owners of ticket terminals printing tickets for themselves. This is nothing new, it is just a lot more visible and blatant.
The band probably hates this arrangement and the fact they have no leverage. No doubt they are complicit, but they have had to accept TM's terms since 96. I would guess that the only negotiation is over the percentage of 10C tix and the "face value" pricing. TM's position is simply "great, here are your 10c tix, which are the most valuable and desired tickets, at the lowest price we can offer. We do not offer this many tickets for any other band. We get to unconditionally do whatever we want with the rest. This confidentiality clause prevents you from discussing our negotiations or terms." The band fights for 10C tix at a reasonable price, and has no say over the remaining tickets. Sucks, but that is the way it is.
F2F falls within TM's control and is just another way they screw fans. This wont be discussed by the 10C or the band. They rarely, if ever, communicate on these types of issues. You may be a loyal fan that pays your dues every year and spent hundreds (or thousands) for tickets, but that does not give you the right to know the confidential details of business arrangements. TM made a promise to open F2F, but they never said when. This is intentional.
And TM is being sued again for this current pricing scheme. Perhaps consumers will get some relief, but I am not holding my breath.
You may be correct in saying this is nothing new for TM and just another example of "TM sticking it to the fans and getting away with it." However, in my mind to stop there is dismissive and oblivious to what is actually happening. This is PJ and the 10c being complicit. THIS IS NEW. Why they are complicit is irrelevant, and in my mind and does not deserve a hall pass or any protection, frankly. Given this circumstance they all should be called out. You are also correct in stating that as fans we do not reserve the right to know about the confidential details of their business arrangements. I never considered that we did...however what fans do deserve is transparency and communication from the fan club which dues are paid to for reasons such as this. The fan club is a vehicle of communication from the band to its fans on all things....not just buy a new vinyl or donate to the Vitalogy Foundation . The conspiracies you speak of are certainly easy to craft considering the radio silence from PJ/10c/TM. Some may think the silence is due to contract terms.....some may think the silence is due to guilt of exploiting fans.........either way there is silence and for me that smells of guilt.
You aren't holding your breath for TM being sued and consumers getting relief...... Some aren't holding their breath for answers from PJ/10c....
Which hurts worse? Now maybe you see why so many are upset and won't just chalk it up to TM being TM......
What is (relatively) new is TM's latest way to squeeze the fans. PJ being complicit is not. They have had to make a deal with the devil to play live for their fans across the US since 96. If being complicit to this new level of profiteering is somehow more offensive than in the past, that is fair, but that position fails to really understand that it has always been this way in one form or another. To me, it is just more of the same, and like I said more visible and blatant. Nothings changed, but the surrounding bullshit that has grown.
Same goes for the band and the 10C. They are notoriously tight lipped about everything. This is not new. Look at the Camden ticket allocations. Not a peep. Raleigh. Baltimore. Just a few examples, but there are more, many more. And it is unlikely that it will change. While they do throw us a nugget of information every once in awhile, they are silent most of the time. Not saying it is right, it is just the way they operate. Take it or leave it.
I do understand why people are upset. I am not upset, but very frustrated with the way things work these days. The current system hurts us consumers and it seems to get harder and harder to get decent tix to a PJ show at a fair price. Forget NYC which is my home show. What exactly do you expect them to say?
"The fan club is a vehicle of communication from the band to its fans on all things....not just buy a new vinyl or donate to the Vitalogy Foundation"
Actually, since about 2006 or so, the fan club has been about exactly the latter, more expensive memberships, expansive merch offerings (dog collars for Pete's sake), buying new vinyl, delayed fan club singles, charities, or whatever. There were no crazy lines for merch on the 2000 or 2003 tours (as best as I can recall). At the end of the day, membership is about the community, access to merch, and a shot at 10C tickets. This band is also notoriously private. 10C most definitely is not a vehicle of communication on "all things."
EDIT: At the end of the day, membership is about a shot at 10C tickets with no guarantees that you will get your money back if are successful and cannot go.
"all things" as in what Stone ate for lunch or what band Matt is practicing with today no....but to dismiss that the Ten Club literally is the vehicle that informs us fans about the tour and the actual ticketing process only to say that the band is notoriously "tight lipped" in, what can be perceived as, an effort to transfer blame to TM and its ways of "sticking it to the fan."
I understand your point about Raleigh or Baltimore to a minor degree but I'm also not sure if you've seen this...I'm not sure how much more transparency there could have been in the instance of Raleigh...nobody is even asking for this long of a note or message.....even starting with when F2F sales will open would be a huge positive step....
nobobd I have seen it, is that what you are hoping for with respect to ticketing? The band and the 10C has no control over F2F so you will not be hearing from them. Even if they did, you would most likely not be hearing from them. There is no transfer of blame, I blame TM.
You referenced Raleigh in an attempt to express how the band is "tight lipped about everything." This proves otherwise. You think TM was ecstatic about PJ cancelling the Raleigh show losing their profits? You think PJ cared what TM thought in this sense? Where was all the credit to TM for "allowing" PJ to cancel? This instance would lead some to believe PJ can do and does do what they want...if they want...when they want.....we certainly do not need to or have the right to know the contractual obligations for the Raleigh however, the essay written in explanation of the cancellation screams that the decision was made solely by PJ regardless of any implications because they believed it was the proper thing to do. I bet in NC that week alone which PJ was supposed to play in Raleigh TM promoted and sold tickets to many other events.
Blind loyalty will continue to allow/dismiss these practices and associated impacts to the consumer/fan.
As I stated, nobody is asking for an essay on the circumstances which surround the tickets for this tour. A simple day and time which F2F will open would be a good start. For anyone to 1. think PJ does not know or 2. to believe it would be understandable for PJ to accept the ambiguity for their fans (while going silent) as to when this will open considering THEY ADVERTISED it is mind blowing. Business practices would tell most that it is not wise to advertise something when you do not control it or you have no knowledge of when it will actually become available. Seems simplistic to me but, I would gather then when these types of discussions occur amongst PJ/TM it is pretty well known the fans will continuously blame one side of the partnership which has little care for their overall image and are used to being sued, blamed, or criticized. However, there is another partner to the relationship which must protect their image and messaging in order for them BOTH to profit........while absolutely being complicit to fans being taken advantage of.
I just wish in this instance PJ/10c would find it proper to communicate a few small details which have significant implications for many of their fans as they did to an even greater extent in the case of Raleigh.
I din’t think there is much “blind” loyalty. I think everyone is aware of the poor communication aspect. But I sure as shit would rather see them instead of trying to send a message otherwise. They wont be touring forever.
Pittsburgh 2013 Cincinnati 2014 Greenville 2016 (Raleigh 2016) Columbia 2016
Giventofly and Lerxst understand the matter very well and have posted some valuable information that is accurate IMHO.
All these conspiracy theories are kind of silly. This is nothing new, TM sticking it to the fans and getting away with it. They defeated Pearl Jam's attempt to make changes. They were later sued and settled by giving $5 vouchers that never worked. Then they bought Live Nation and managed to get that through the Department of Justice (no doubt spending millions on lawyers and lobbyists). They have been doing it for years in one form or another. Before platinum pricing or market pricing they made deals with ticket brokers, auction sites, or some other way to sell them at a higher price. They have been holding back seats from the public and using them for profit since the mid 80s when they tried to put a stop to the owners of ticket terminals printing tickets for themselves. This is nothing new, it is just a lot more visible and blatant.
The band probably hates this arrangement and the fact they have no leverage. No doubt they are complicit, but they have had to accept TM's terms since 96. I would guess that the only negotiation is over the percentage of 10C tix and the "face value" pricing. TM's position is simply "great, here are your 10c tix, which are the most valuable and desired tickets, at the lowest price we can offer. We do not offer this many tickets for any other band. We get to unconditionally do whatever we want with the rest. This confidentiality clause prevents you from discussing our negotiations or terms." The band fights for 10C tix at a reasonable price, and has no say over the remaining tickets. Sucks, but that is the way it is.
F2F falls within TM's control and is just another way they screw fans. This wont be discussed by the 10C or the band. They rarely, if ever, communicate on these types of issues. You may be a loyal fan that pays your dues every year and spent hundreds (or thousands) for tickets, but that does not give you the right to know the confidential details of business arrangements. TM made a promise to open F2F, but they never said when. This is intentional.
And TM is being sued again for this current pricing scheme. Perhaps consumers will get some relief, but I am not holding my breath.
You may be correct in saying this is nothing new for TM and just another example of "TM sticking it to the fans and getting away with it." However, in my mind to stop there is dismissive and oblivious to what is actually happening. This is PJ and the 10c being complicit. THIS IS NEW. Why they are complicit is irrelevant, and in my mind and does not deserve a hall pass or any protection, frankly. Given this circumstance they all should be called out. You are also correct in stating that as fans we do not reserve the right to know about the confidential details of their business arrangements. I never considered that we did...however what fans do deserve is transparency and communication from the fan club which dues are paid to for reasons such as this. The fan club is a vehicle of communication from the band to its fans on all things....not just buy a new vinyl or donate to the Vitalogy Foundation . The conspiracies you speak of are certainly easy to craft considering the radio silence from PJ/10c/TM. Some may think the silence is due to contract terms.....some may think the silence is due to guilt of exploiting fans.........either way there is silence and for me that smells of guilt.
You aren't holding your breath for TM being sued and consumers getting relief...... Some aren't holding their breath for answers from PJ/10c....
Which hurts worse? Now maybe you see why so many are upset and won't just chalk it up to TM being TM......
What is (relatively) new is TM's latest way to squeeze the fans. PJ being complicit is not. They have had to make a deal with the devil to play live for their fans across the US since 96. If being complicit to this new level of profiteering is somehow more offensive than in the past, that is fair, but that position fails to really understand that it has always been this way in one form or another. To me, it is just more of the same, and like I said more visible and blatant. Nothings changed, but the surrounding bullshit that has grown.
Same goes for the band and the 10C. They are notoriously tight lipped about everything. This is not new. Look at the Camden ticket allocations. Not a peep. Raleigh. Baltimore. Just a few examples, but there are more, many more. And it is unlikely that it will change. While they do throw us a nugget of information every once in awhile, they are silent most of the time. Not saying it is right, it is just the way they operate. Take it or leave it.
I do understand why people are upset. I am not upset, but very frustrated with the way things work these days. The current system hurts us consumers and it seems to get harder and harder to get decent tix to a PJ show at a fair price. Forget NYC which is my home show. What exactly do you expect them to say?
"The fan club is a vehicle of communication from the band to its fans on all things....not just buy a new vinyl or donate to the Vitalogy Foundation"
Actually, since about 2006 or so, the fan club has been about exactly the latter, more expensive memberships, expansive merch offerings (dog collars for Pete's sake), buying new vinyl, delayed fan club singles, charities, or whatever. There were no crazy lines for merch on the 2000 or 2003 tours (as best as I can recall). At the end of the day, membership is about the community, access to merch, and a shot at 10C tickets. This band is also notoriously private. 10C most definitely is not a vehicle of communication on "all things."
EDIT: At the end of the day, membership is about a shot at 10C tickets with no guarantees that you will get your money back if are successful and cannot go.
"all things" as in what Stone ate for lunch or what band Matt is practicing with today no....but to dismiss that the Ten Club literally is the vehicle that informs us fans about the tour and the actual ticketing process only to say that the band is notoriously "tight lipped" in, what can be perceived as, an effort to transfer blame to TM and its ways of "sticking it to the fan."
I understand your point about Raleigh or Baltimore to a minor degree but I'm also not sure if you've seen this...I'm not sure how much more transparency there could have been in the instance of Raleigh...nobody is even asking for this long of a note or message.....even starting with when F2F sales will open would be a huge positive step....
nobobd I have seen it, is that what you are hoping for with respect to ticketing? The band and the 10C has no control over F2F so you will not be hearing from them. Even if they did, you would most likely not be hearing from them. There is no transfer of blame, I blame TM.
You referenced Raleigh in an attempt to express how the band is "tight lipped about everything." This proves otherwise. You think TM was ecstatic about PJ cancelling the Raleigh show losing their profits? You think PJ cared what TM thought in this sense? Where was all the credit to TM for "allowing" PJ to cancel? This instance would lead some to believe PJ can do and does do what they want...if they want...when they want.....we certainly do not need to or have the right to know the contractual obligations for the Raleigh however, the essay written in explanation of the cancellation screams that the decision was made solely by PJ regardless of any implications because they believed it was the proper thing to do. I bet in NC that week alone which PJ was supposed to play in Raleigh TM promoted and sold tickets to many other events.
Blind loyalty will continue to allow/dismiss these practices and associated impacts to the consumer/fan.
As I stated, nobody is asking for an essay on the circumstances which surround the tickets for this tour. A simple day and time which F2F will open would be a good start. For anyone to 1. think PJ does not know or 2. to believe it would be understandable for PJ to accept the ambiguity for their fans (while going silent) as to when this will open considering THEY ADVERTISED it is mind blowing. Business practices would tell most that it is not wise to advertise something when you do not control it or you have no knowledge of when it will actually become available. Seems simplistic to me but, I would gather then when these types of discussions occur amongst PJ/TM it is pretty well known the fans will continuously blame one side of the partnership which has little care for their overall image and are used to being sued, blamed, or criticized. However, there is another partner to the relationship which must protect their image and messaging in order for them BOTH to profit........while absolutely being complicit to fans being taken advantage of.
I just wish in this instance PJ/10c would find it proper to communicate a few small details which have significant implications for many of their fans as they did to an even greater extent in the case of Raleigh.
Right. A letter about the Raleigh cancellation proves that they have control over everything. My comments do not come from blind loyalty, they come from a deep understanding of the ticket business and many years of going through this with PJ. Agree to disagree.
I din’t think there is much “blind” loyalty. I think everyone is aware of the poor communication aspect. But I sure as shit would rather see them instead of trying to send a message otherwise. They wont be touring forever.
Communication is one thing and certainly a failure in this instance.
The blind loyalty runs deep. To many fans, I was one until now, PJ can do no wrong and are often held harmless simply because of fans love of their music, the live experience, the activism, the camaraderie, the merch among many other individualized factors. However, to not stop and take into account the occurrences that brought us to today's circumstance with respect to tickets for this tour and PJ's place in the equation will only allow for matters to continually get worse. Simply dismissing their place in the matter because of TM's involvement is exactly that......blind loyalty.
While I hope this does not occur but, who is going to be to blame if/when there are "PJ Premium" seats at the next Wrigley or Fenway show, if they have one? Those are not TM venues.
I do not know what message you feel is being sent otherwise. I, for one, have admitted time and time again, lately, my contributions to the mass hysteria of tickets/merch etc. I love PJ for who they were, how they've resonated with me for the last 30 or so years, and yes who they have even become today. I just wish they came by who they seem to have become a bit more honestly.
It is a sad reality that they may not be touring much longer. This is exactly why my messaging has been done in the manner which it was. My encouragement to PJ/10c, above all, is to NOT lose sight of why they have been able to tour with a loyal fan base for so many years and to not jeopardize that for what seems to be a business deal and profits. If profits are now the goal as the band is in the twilight of their existence then I would likely support that provided I was made not to feel taken advantage of financially by a band that for so long has promoted one demise of America being greed.
I do not want to see the demise of PJ and I am willing to speak up/out in support of that. Hearing fans accounts of the ticketing fiasco surrounding their desire to attend a show, the crazy amount of available seats for shows in May, not one show being "sold out" in September, and the crazy "PJ Premium" feels as if it may be just that.......the irony would be that PJ was helped into being "mainstream" by speaking out against TM and shady their practices and now they may be catapulted back into the fringe as they were while trying to combat TM but now only because of their dealings with TM......
Giventofly and Lerxst understand the matter very well and have posted some valuable information that is accurate IMHO.
All these conspiracy theories are kind of silly. This is nothing new, TM sticking it to the fans and getting away with it. They defeated Pearl Jam's attempt to make changes. They were later sued and settled by giving $5 vouchers that never worked. Then they bought Live Nation and managed to get that through the Department of Justice (no doubt spending millions on lawyers and lobbyists). They have been doing it for years in one form or another. Before platinum pricing or market pricing they made deals with ticket brokers, auction sites, or some other way to sell them at a higher price. They have been holding back seats from the public and using them for profit since the mid 80s when they tried to put a stop to the owners of ticket terminals printing tickets for themselves. This is nothing new, it is just a lot more visible and blatant.
The band probably hates this arrangement and the fact they have no leverage. No doubt they are complicit, but they have had to accept TM's terms since 96. I would guess that the only negotiation is over the percentage of 10C tix and the "face value" pricing. TM's position is simply "great, here are your 10c tix, which are the most valuable and desired tickets, at the lowest price we can offer. We do not offer this many tickets for any other band. We get to unconditionally do whatever we want with the rest. This confidentiality clause prevents you from discussing our negotiations or terms." The band fights for 10C tix at a reasonable price, and has no say over the remaining tickets. Sucks, but that is the way it is.
F2F falls within TM's control and is just another way they screw fans. This wont be discussed by the 10C or the band. They rarely, if ever, communicate on these types of issues. You may be a loyal fan that pays your dues every year and spent hundreds (or thousands) for tickets, but that does not give you the right to know the confidential details of business arrangements. TM made a promise to open F2F, but they never said when. This is intentional.
And TM is being sued again for this current pricing scheme. Perhaps consumers will get some relief, but I am not holding my breath.
You may be correct in saying this is nothing new for TM and just another example of "TM sticking it to the fans and getting away with it." However, in my mind to stop there is dismissive and oblivious to what is actually happening. This is PJ and the 10c being complicit. THIS IS NEW. Why they are complicit is irrelevant, and in my mind and does not deserve a hall pass or any protection, frankly. Given this circumstance they all should be called out. You are also correct in stating that as fans we do not reserve the right to know about the confidential details of their business arrangements. I never considered that we did...however what fans do deserve is transparency and communication from the fan club which dues are paid to for reasons such as this. The fan club is a vehicle of communication from the band to its fans on all things....not just buy a new vinyl or donate to the Vitalogy Foundation . The conspiracies you speak of are certainly easy to craft considering the radio silence from PJ/10c/TM. Some may think the silence is due to contract terms.....some may think the silence is due to guilt of exploiting fans.........either way there is silence and for me that smells of guilt.
You aren't holding your breath for TM being sued and consumers getting relief...... Some aren't holding their breath for answers from PJ/10c....
Which hurts worse? Now maybe you see why so many are upset and won't just chalk it up to TM being TM......
What is (relatively) new is TM's latest way to squeeze the fans. PJ being complicit is not. They have had to make a deal with the devil to play live for their fans across the US since 96. If being complicit to this new level of profiteering is somehow more offensive than in the past, that is fair, but that position fails to really understand that it has always been this way in one form or another. To me, it is just more of the same, and like I said more visible and blatant. Nothings changed, but the surrounding bullshit that has grown.
Same goes for the band and the 10C. They are notoriously tight lipped about everything. This is not new. Look at the Camden ticket allocations. Not a peep. Raleigh. Baltimore. Just a few examples, but there are more, many more. And it is unlikely that it will change. While they do throw us a nugget of information every once in awhile, they are silent most of the time. Not saying it is right, it is just the way they operate. Take it or leave it.
I do understand why people are upset. I am not upset, but very frustrated with the way things work these days. The current system hurts us consumers and it seems to get harder and harder to get decent tix to a PJ show at a fair price. Forget NYC which is my home show. What exactly do you expect them to say?
"The fan club is a vehicle of communication from the band to its fans on all things....not just buy a new vinyl or donate to the Vitalogy Foundation"
Actually, since about 2006 or so, the fan club has been about exactly the latter, more expensive memberships, expansive merch offerings (dog collars for Pete's sake), buying new vinyl, delayed fan club singles, charities, or whatever. There were no crazy lines for merch on the 2000 or 2003 tours (as best as I can recall). At the end of the day, membership is about the community, access to merch, and a shot at 10C tickets. This band is also notoriously private. 10C most definitely is not a vehicle of communication on "all things."
EDIT: At the end of the day, membership is about a shot at 10C tickets with no guarantees that you will get your money back if are successful and cannot go.
"all things" as in what Stone ate for lunch or what band Matt is practicing with today no....but to dismiss that the Ten Club literally is the vehicle that informs us fans about the tour and the actual ticketing process only to say that the band is notoriously "tight lipped" in, what can be perceived as, an effort to transfer blame to TM and its ways of "sticking it to the fan."
I understand your point about Raleigh or Baltimore to a minor degree but I'm also not sure if you've seen this...I'm not sure how much more transparency there could have been in the instance of Raleigh...nobody is even asking for this long of a note or message.....even starting with when F2F sales will open would be a huge positive step....
nobobd I have seen it, is that what you are hoping for with respect to ticketing? The band and the 10C has no control over F2F so you will not be hearing from them. Even if they did, you would most likely not be hearing from them. There is no transfer of blame, I blame TM.
You referenced Raleigh in an attempt to express how the band is "tight lipped about everything." This proves otherwise. You think TM was ecstatic about PJ cancelling the Raleigh show losing their profits? You think PJ cared what TM thought in this sense? Where was all the credit to TM for "allowing" PJ to cancel? This instance would lead some to believe PJ can do and does do what they want...if they want...when they want.....we certainly do not need to or have the right to know the contractual obligations for the Raleigh however, the essay written in explanation of the cancellation screams that the decision was made solely by PJ regardless of any implications because they believed it was the proper thing to do. I bet in NC that week alone which PJ was supposed to play in Raleigh TM promoted and sold tickets to many other events.
Blind loyalty will continue to allow/dismiss these practices and associated impacts to the consumer/fan.
As I stated, nobody is asking for an essay on the circumstances which surround the tickets for this tour. A simple day and time which F2F will open would be a good start. For anyone to 1. think PJ does not know or 2. to believe it would be understandable for PJ to accept the ambiguity for their fans (while going silent) as to when this will open considering THEY ADVERTISED it is mind blowing. Business practices would tell most that it is not wise to advertise something when you do not control it or you have no knowledge of when it will actually become available. Seems simplistic to me but, I would gather then when these types of discussions occur amongst PJ/TM it is pretty well known the fans will continuously blame one side of the partnership which has little care for their overall image and are used to being sued, blamed, or criticized. However, there is another partner to the relationship which must protect their image and messaging in order for them BOTH to profit........while absolutely being complicit to fans being taken advantage of.
I just wish in this instance PJ/10c would find it proper to communicate a few small details which have significant implications for many of their fans as they did to an even greater extent in the case of Raleigh.
Right. A letter about the Raleigh cancellation proves that they have control over everything. My comments do not come from blind loyalty, they come from a deep understanding of the ticket business and many years of going through this with PJ. Agree to disagree.
A letter about Raleigh proves that they aren't all that "tight lipped" when it promotes the image they wish to portray. It also proves that they do have the ability to dictate to TM when/if they so choose.
I also have a deep understanding of the ticket business as well as many years of going through this not only with PJ but many many other bands. Being a member of the DMB Warehouse or the Tool Army I would never have the same criticisms I do today of PJ because they have never and will never portray the image of we above me. Fans there know what to expect. PJ has certainly been in the we before me category...Raleigh is also indicative of that. We can certainly agree to disagree and I hope none of my comments have been offensive to you or anyone. I genuinely enjoy the banter and various opinions and perspective.
Giventofly and Lerxst understand the matter very well and have posted some valuable information that is accurate IMHO.
All these conspiracy theories are kind of silly. This is nothing new, TM sticking it to the fans and getting away with it. They defeated Pearl Jam's attempt to make changes. They were later sued and settled by giving $5 vouchers that never worked. Then they bought Live Nation and managed to get that through the Department of Justice (no doubt spending millions on lawyers and lobbyists). They have been doing it for years in one form or another. Before platinum pricing or market pricing they made deals with ticket brokers, auction sites, or some other way to sell them at a higher price. They have been holding back seats from the public and using them for profit since the mid 80s when they tried to put a stop to the owners of ticket terminals printing tickets for themselves. This is nothing new, it is just a lot more visible and blatant.
The band probably hates this arrangement and the fact they have no leverage. No doubt they are complicit, but they have had to accept TM's terms since 96. I would guess that the only negotiation is over the percentage of 10C tix and the "face value" pricing. TM's position is simply "great, here are your 10c tix, which are the most valuable and desired tickets, at the lowest price we can offer. We do not offer this many tickets for any other band. We get to unconditionally do whatever we want with the rest. This confidentiality clause prevents you from discussing our negotiations or terms." The band fights for 10C tix at a reasonable price, and has no say over the remaining tickets. Sucks, but that is the way it is.
F2F falls within TM's control and is just another way they screw fans. This wont be discussed by the 10C or the band. They rarely, if ever, communicate on these types of issues. You may be a loyal fan that pays your dues every year and spent hundreds (or thousands) for tickets, but that does not give you the right to know the confidential details of business arrangements. TM made a promise to open F2F, but they never said when. This is intentional.
And TM is being sued again for this current pricing scheme. Perhaps consumers will get some relief, but I am not holding my breath.
You may be correct in saying this is nothing new for TM and just another example of "TM sticking it to the fans and getting away with it." However, in my mind to stop there is dismissive and oblivious to what is actually happening. This is PJ and the 10c being complicit. THIS IS NEW. Why they are complicit is irrelevant, and in my mind and does not deserve a hall pass or any protection, frankly. Given this circumstance they all should be called out. You are also correct in stating that as fans we do not reserve the right to know about the confidential details of their business arrangements. I never considered that we did...however what fans do deserve is transparency and communication from the fan club which dues are paid to for reasons such as this. The fan club is a vehicle of communication from the band to its fans on all things....not just buy a new vinyl or donate to the Vitalogy Foundation . The conspiracies you speak of are certainly easy to craft considering the radio silence from PJ/10c/TM. Some may think the silence is due to contract terms.....some may think the silence is due to guilt of exploiting fans.........either way there is silence and for me that smells of guilt.
You aren't holding your breath for TM being sued and consumers getting relief...... Some aren't holding their breath for answers from PJ/10c....
Which hurts worse? Now maybe you see why so many are upset and won't just chalk it up to TM being TM......
What is (relatively) new is TM's latest way to squeeze the fans. PJ being complicit is not. They have had to make a deal with the devil to play live for their fans across the US since 96. If being complicit to this new level of profiteering is somehow more offensive than in the past, that is fair, but that position fails to really understand that it has always been this way in one form or another. To me, it is just more of the same, and like I said more visible and blatant. Nothings changed, but the surrounding bullshit that has grown.
Same goes for the band and the 10C. They are notoriously tight lipped about everything. This is not new. Look at the Camden ticket allocations. Not a peep. Raleigh. Baltimore. Just a few examples, but there are more, many more. And it is unlikely that it will change. While they do throw us a nugget of information every once in awhile, they are silent most of the time. Not saying it is right, it is just the way they operate. Take it or leave it.
I do understand why people are upset. I am not upset, but very frustrated with the way things work these days. The current system hurts us consumers and it seems to get harder and harder to get decent tix to a PJ show at a fair price. Forget NYC which is my home show. What exactly do you expect them to say?
"The fan club is a vehicle of communication from the band to its fans on all things....not just buy a new vinyl or donate to the Vitalogy Foundation"
Actually, since about 2006 or so, the fan club has been about exactly the latter, more expensive memberships, expansive merch offerings (dog collars for Pete's sake), buying new vinyl, delayed fan club singles, charities, or whatever. There were no crazy lines for merch on the 2000 or 2003 tours (as best as I can recall). At the end of the day, membership is about the community, access to merch, and a shot at 10C tickets. This band is also notoriously private. 10C most definitely is not a vehicle of communication on "all things."
EDIT: At the end of the day, membership is about a shot at 10C tickets with no guarantees that you will get your money back if are successful and cannot go.
"all things" as in what Stone ate for lunch or what band Matt is practicing with today no....but to dismiss that the Ten Club literally is the vehicle that informs us fans about the tour and the actual ticketing process only to say that the band is notoriously "tight lipped" in, what can be perceived as, an effort to transfer blame to TM and its ways of "sticking it to the fan."
I understand your point about Raleigh or Baltimore to a minor degree but I'm also not sure if you've seen this...I'm not sure how much more transparency there could have been in the instance of Raleigh...nobody is even asking for this long of a note or message.....even starting with when F2F sales will open would be a huge positive step....
nobobd I have seen it, is that what you are hoping for with respect to ticketing? The band and the 10C has no control over F2F so you will not be hearing from them. Even if they did, you would most likely not be hearing from them. There is no transfer of blame, I blame TM.
You referenced Raleigh in an attempt to express how the band is "tight lipped about everything." This proves otherwise. You think TM was ecstatic about PJ cancelling the Raleigh show losing their profits? You think PJ cared what TM thought in this sense? Where was all the credit to TM for "allowing" PJ to cancel? This instance would lead some to believe PJ can do and does do what they want...if they want...when they want.....we certainly do not need to or have the right to know the contractual obligations for the Raleigh however, the essay written in explanation of the cancellation screams that the decision was made solely by PJ regardless of any implications because they believed it was the proper thing to do. I bet in NC that week alone which PJ was supposed to play in Raleigh TM promoted and sold tickets to many other events.
Blind loyalty will continue to allow/dismiss these practices and associated impacts to the consumer/fan.
As I stated, nobody is asking for an essay on the circumstances which surround the tickets for this tour. A simple day and time which F2F will open would be a good start. For anyone to 1. think PJ does not know or 2. to believe it would be understandable for PJ to accept the ambiguity for their fans (while going silent) as to when this will open considering THEY ADVERTISED it is mind blowing. Business practices would tell most that it is not wise to advertise something when you do not control it or you have no knowledge of when it will actually become available. Seems simplistic to me but, I would gather then when these types of discussions occur amongst PJ/TM it is pretty well known the fans will continuously blame one side of the partnership which has little care for their overall image and are used to being sued, blamed, or criticized. However, there is another partner to the relationship which must protect their image and messaging in order for them BOTH to profit........while absolutely being complicit to fans being taken advantage of.
I just wish in this instance PJ/10c would find it proper to communicate a few small details which have significant implications for many of their fans as they did to an even greater extent in the case of Raleigh.
Right. A letter about the Raleigh cancellation proves that they have control over everything. My comments do not come from blind loyalty, they come from a deep understanding of the ticket business and many years of going through this with PJ. Agree to disagree.
A letter about Raleigh proves that they aren't all that "tight lipped" when it promotes the image they wish to portray. It also proves that they do have the ability to dictate to TM when/if they so choose.
I also have a deep understanding of the ticket business as well as many years of going through this not only with PJ but many many other bands. Being a member of the DMB Warehouse or the Tool Army I would never have the same criticisms I do today of PJ because they have never and will never portray the image of we above me. Fans there know what to expect. PJ has certainly been in the we before me category...Raleigh is also indicative of that. We can certainly agree to disagree and I hope none of my comments have been offensive to you or anyone. I genuinely enjoy the banter and various opinions and perspective.
This week is done in 2 days…. Or does this week mean next week? It will be very interesting to see if the fall shows are included as well. Most of the them some decent.
There is a post in one of the Facebook groups claiming a response from 10c reads that fan 2 fan will open this week.
Two weeks ahead of shows? Shock G’d.
The one who put the satin on your panties....RIP
And got busy in a Burger King bathroom
1996.....Toronto 2005.....Hamilton 2011.....Toronto N1, Toronto N2, Hamilton 2013.....London, Buffalo 2014.....Detroit 2016.....Toronto N1 Toronto N2, Boston N1, Boston N2, Chicago N1 2018.....Seattle N1, Seattle N2 2022.....San Diego, Los Angeles N1, Los Angeles N2, Phoenix, Oakland N1, Oakland N2, Quebec City, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto 2023.....Fort Worth N1, Fort Worth N2, Austin N1, Austin N2 2024.....????
I'm going to go in a different direction. Out of all the bands from the 90's that I loved, PJ was my favourite. I feel pretty lucky they've gone the distance, and that I've got a few shows to see next month.
At this point I'm glad their still touring, even if ticketing is becoming more troublesome. At some point (being younger than the band) I'm going to be an old man wishing I could go to a PJ show.
Glad I've still got the chance to see shows here and there
Ticketing is what is. It's generally the same for most bands. Platinum's, tiered pricing, and maybe some reasonable tickets if you pay to be in the band's fan club.
Apologies for the dumb question, and didn't read the whole thread.....So I got tickets for Vegas. Are they supposed to show up at some point in my Ticketmaster app? My St. Louis tix are there but nothing for Vegas. Granted St. Louis was purchased pre-Covid so maybe that's why. Thanks in advance.
Apologies for the dumb question, and didn't read the whole thread.....So I got tickets for Vegas. Are they supposed to show up at some point in my Ticketmaster app? My St. Louis tix are there but nothing for Vegas. Granted St. Louis was purchased pre-Covid so maybe that's why. Thanks in advance.
If they are 10C you should have gotten an email to claim them from ticketstoday.
Apologies for the dumb question, and didn't read the whole thread.....So I got tickets for Vegas. Are they supposed to show up at some point in my Ticketmaster app? My St. Louis tix are there but nothing for Vegas. Granted St. Louis was purchased pre-Covid so maybe that's why. Thanks in advance.
If they are 10C you should have gotten an email to claim them from ticketstoday.
There is a post in one of the Facebook groups claiming a response from 10c reads that fan 2 fan will open this week.
Two weeks ahead of shows? Shock G’d.
I saw that post. If the info is correct, that’s two weeks prior to tour opener. And, I will not be surprised if/when they stagger F2F for each show, opening 2 weeks prior to show date. Wasn’t that what they did for EdVed?
I do think it’s unfair to wait that long, however, I’m not one to put in for shows that I know I can’t make. That said, I might want to add shows, and that’s harder when you can’t get tix til two weeks prior (if travel is involved)
I have extra Camden seats that I will need to sell, and am fortunate that I can afford to hold on to them until two weeks before show date, but it would be nice to get that cash back before then. Honestly, I’ll prob just unload them without using F2F and walk in with the buyer.
Comments
"Me knowing the truth, I can not concur."
1996: Toronto - 1998: Chicago, Montreal, Barrie - 2000: Montreal, Toronto - 2002: Seattle X2 (Key Arena) - 2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal, Seattle (Benaroya Hall) - 2004: Reading, Toledo, Grand Rapids - 2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Quebec City - 2006: Toronto X2, Albany, Hartford, Grand Rapids, Cleveland - 2007: Chicago (Vic Theatre) - 2008: NYC X2, Hartford, Mansfield X2 - 2009: Toronto, Chicago X2, Seattle X2, Philadelphia X4 - 2010: Columbus, Noblesville, Cleveland, Buffalo, Hartford - 2011: Montreal, Toronto X2, Ottawa, Hamilton - 2012: Missoula - 2013: London, Chicago, Buffalo, Hartford - 2014: Detroit, Moline - 2015: NYC (Global Citizen Festival) - 2016: Greenville, Toronto X2, Chicago 1 - 2017: Brooklyn (RRHOF Induction) - 2018: Chicago 1, Boston 1 - 2022: Fresno, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto, NYC, Camden - 2023: St. Paul X2, Austin X2 - 2024: Vancouver X2, Portland, Sacramento, Noblesville, Philadelphia X2, Baltimore
2012: Atlanta
2013: London ONT / Wrigley Field / Pittsburgh / Buffalo / San Diego / Los Angeles I / Los Angeles II
2014: Cincinnati / St. Louis / Tulsa / Lincoln / Detroit / Denver
2015: New York City
2016: Ft. Lauderdale / Miami / Jacksonville / Greenville / Hampton / Columbia / Lexington / Philly II / New York City II / Toronto II / Bonnaroo / Telluride / Fenway I / Wrigley I / Wrigley - II / TOTD - Philadelphia, San Francisco
2017: Ohana Fest (EV)
2018: Amsterdam I / Amsterdam II / Seattle I / Seattle II / Boston I / Boston II
2021: Asbury Park / Ohana Encore 1 / Ohana Encore 2
2022: Phoenix / LA I / LA II / Quebec City / Ottawa / New York City / Camden / Nashville / St. Louis / Denver
2023: St. Paul II
2024: Las Vegas I / Las Vegas II / New York City I / New York City II / Philly I / Philly II / Baltimore
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 | Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him.
He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
The caveat now being with "PJ Premium" people can pony up and pay crazy money for a guarantee.
I'd rather MSG but landed Vegas. Can't use them now so I'll sell once able. If the ability to sell F2F is ultimately removed and the inability to transfer seats to others remains....I'd imagine a lot less sold out shows are in the future.
I have seen it, is that what you are hoping for with respect to ticketing? The band and the 10C has no control over F2F so you will not be hearing from them. Even if they did, you would most likely not be hearing from them. There is no transfer of blame, I blame TM.
~~~~~Reason enough NOT to go to the show for me~~~~~
San Diego & LA 2X, PHX, MSG, Camden, Nashville, 50th SHOW STL 22, CHI(n2), INDY, FTW(n2), Austin 2X 23......
Blind loyalty will continue to allow/dismiss these practices and associated impacts to the consumer/fan.
As I stated, nobody is asking for an essay on the circumstances which surround the tickets for this tour. A simple day and time which F2F will open would be a good start. For anyone to 1. think PJ does not know or 2. to believe it would be understandable for PJ to accept the ambiguity for their fans (while going silent) as to when this will open considering THEY ADVERTISED it is mind blowing. Business practices would tell most that it is not wise to advertise something when you do not control it or you have no knowledge of when it will actually become available. Seems simplistic to me but, I would gather then when these types of discussions occur amongst PJ/TM it is pretty well known the fans will continuously blame one side of the partnership which has little care for their overall image and are used to being sued, blamed, or criticized. However, there is another partner to the relationship which must protect their image and messaging in order for them BOTH to profit........while absolutely being complicit to fans being taken advantage of.
I just wish in this instance PJ/10c would find it proper to communicate a few small details which have significant implications for many of their fans as they did to an even greater extent in the case of Raleigh.
Cincinnati 2014
Greenville 2016
(Raleigh 2016)
Columbia 2016
Right. A letter about the Raleigh cancellation proves that they have control over everything. My comments do not come from blind loyalty, they come from a deep understanding of the ticket business and many years of going through this with PJ. Agree to disagree.
The blind loyalty runs deep. To many fans, I was one until now, PJ can do no wrong and are often held harmless simply because of fans love of their music, the live experience, the activism, the camaraderie, the merch among many other individualized factors. However, to not stop and take into account the occurrences that brought us to today's circumstance with respect to tickets for this tour and PJ's place in the equation will only allow for matters to continually get worse. Simply dismissing their place in the matter because of TM's involvement is exactly that......blind loyalty.
While I hope this does not occur but, who is going to be to blame if/when there are "PJ Premium" seats at the next Wrigley or Fenway show, if they have one? Those are not TM venues.
I do not know what message you feel is being sent otherwise. I, for one, have admitted time and time again, lately, my contributions to the mass hysteria of tickets/merch etc. I love PJ for who they were, how they've resonated with me for the last 30 or so years, and yes who they have even become today. I just wish they came by who they seem to have become a bit more honestly.
It is a sad reality that they may not be touring much longer. This is exactly why my messaging has been done in the manner which it was. My encouragement to PJ/10c, above all, is to NOT lose sight of why they have been able to tour with a loyal fan base for so many years and to not jeopardize that for what seems to be a business deal and profits. If profits are now the goal as the band is in the twilight of their existence then I would likely support that provided I was made not to feel taken advantage of financially by a band that for so long has promoted one demise of America being greed.
I do not want to see the demise of PJ and I am willing to speak up/out in support of that. Hearing fans accounts of the ticketing fiasco surrounding their desire to attend a show, the crazy amount of available seats for shows in May, not one show being "sold out" in September, and the crazy "PJ Premium" feels as if it may be just that.......the irony would be that PJ was helped into being "mainstream" by speaking out against TM and shady their practices and now they may be catapulted back into the fringe as they were while trying to combat TM but now only because of their dealings with TM......
Here is hoping this does not happen -
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
ISO 2016 Greenville shirt. Size medium. PM me if you have one for sale/trade.
I also have a deep understanding of the ticket business as well as many years of going through this not only with PJ but many many other bands. Being a member of the DMB Warehouse or the Tool Army I would never have the same criticisms I do today of PJ because they have never and will never portray the image of we above me. Fans there know what to expect. PJ has certainly been in the we before me category...Raleigh is also indicative of that. We can certainly agree to disagree and I hope none of my comments have been offensive to you or anyone. I genuinely enjoy the banter and various opinions and perspective.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
No offense at all. All good.
2005.....Hamilton
2011.....Toronto N1, Toronto N2, Hamilton
2013.....London, Buffalo
2014.....Detroit
2016.....Toronto N1 Toronto N2, Boston N1, Boston N2, Chicago N1
2018.....Seattle N1, Seattle N2
2022.....San Diego, Los Angeles N1, Los Angeles N2, Phoenix, Oakland N1, Oakland N2, Quebec City, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto
2023.....Fort Worth N1, Fort Worth N2, Austin N1, Austin N2
2024.....????
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 | Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him.
He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
I do think it’s unfair to wait that long, however, I’m not one to put in for shows that I know I can’t make. That said, I might want to add shows, and that’s harder when you can’t get tix til two weeks prior (if travel is involved)
I have extra Camden seats that I will need to sell, and am fortunate that I can afford to hold on to them until two weeks before show date, but it would be nice to get that cash back before then. Honestly, I’ll prob just unload them without using F2F and walk in with the buyer.
This really should not be so complex.