Ukraine

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    PJPOWER said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It's a mistake to lump China and Russia together on this. They are not partners in a way where NATO intervention will bring in China to a hot war.  Putin cannot become reliant on China.  Russia has aspirations to rebuild its post war empire.  China has no stake in that. 
    They both want to see the US' power fall.  They both want to get rid of the Dollar as the worlds currency.  That's 2 things they both agree on.
    I wouldn't go that far.  China wants to break dollar hegemony in EAST ASIA, not worldwide.  And they ahve taken steps by allowing it to appreciate over the past few years.  However it's a delicate balance because one of the primary reasons we import so much is because of the weak yuan compared to the dollar.  

    China is not a real concern in this particular crisis, I don't believe.  The Olympics is critical to China so sullying it with a war would be terrible.  If anything, I think they will be heavily against a hot war anytime in the next month, at a minimum.  

    Putin is pushing the narrative that Ukraine and Russia are "one people" which is preposterous.  They have different language, different culture, oh and btw Moscow let millions of them die in the 20's and 30's including members of my family.  But when you hear the language "one people", it's impossible not to think of the Anshluss.  That's where Putin's head is.. He just doesn't have the army to do it.  
    I wonder if China would try to pull off a grab of Taiwan if the US got involved with the Ukraine.  It has seemed like they are waiting for just the right time for a while now.  
    I mean... it's fundamentally Chinese property already.  The easiest way to anger China is for a country to say anything against the One China position. 
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 6,498
    mrussel1 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It's a mistake to lump China and Russia together on this. They are not partners in a way where NATO intervention will bring in China to a hot war.  Putin cannot become reliant on China.  Russia has aspirations to rebuild its post war empire.  China has no stake in that. 
    They both want to see the US' power fall.  They both want to get rid of the Dollar as the worlds currency.  That's 2 things they both agree on.
    I wouldn't go that far.  China wants to break dollar hegemony in EAST ASIA, not worldwide.  And they ahve taken steps by allowing it to appreciate over the past few years.  However it's a delicate balance because one of the primary reasons we import so much is because of the weak yuan compared to the dollar.  

    China is not a real concern in this particular crisis, I don't believe.  The Olympics is critical to China so sullying it with a war would be terrible.  If anything, I think they will be heavily against a hot war anytime in the next month, at a minimum.  

    Putin is pushing the narrative that Ukraine and Russia are "one people" which is preposterous.  They have different language, different culture, oh and btw Moscow let millions of them die in the 20's and 30's including members of my family.  But when you hear the language "one people", it's impossible not to think of the Anshluss.  That's where Putin's head is.. He just doesn't have the army to do it.  
    I wonder if China would try to pull off a grab of Taiwan if the US got involved with the Ukraine.  It has seemed like they are waiting for just the right time for a while now.  
    I mean... it's fundamentally Chinese property already.  The easiest way to anger China is for a country to say anything against the One China position. 
    True…which is why they are probably angry a lot, ha
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739
    Ukraines on to you guys. He doesn’t want your bullshit war mongering…
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    Ukraines on to you guys. He doesn’t want your bullshit war mongering…
    Yeah, nothing would advance the cause of peace and humanity like letting Russia take whatever the fuck territory they want.  Sounds like a great plan there, Neville. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,509
    about the china thing, I was going to say the same thing as mrussell....US economic success is a big factor of China's economy. But as far as Russia and Ukraine go, I don't have a fucking clue. 
    I'm through with screaming...

    Darwinspeed, folks...I'm out


  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739
    mrussel1 said:
    Ukraines on to you guys. He doesn’t want your bullshit war mongering…
    Yeah, nothing would advance the cause of peace and humanity like letting Russia take whatever the fuck territory they want.  Sounds like a great plan there, Neville. 
    You and your family are free to join the fight?  People who promote war but don’t join the fight, what does that make you. I know it’s easier to send other people to fight your war, especially poor people that the elites love to use in their wars games…maybe the Ukraine president thinks of these things like this, because we know you America don’, maybe unlike you and your cult politicians feels life is worth something.  This is Europes problem.  They can defend Ukraine…or not.  Burps it appears even Europe is not all that interested in an armed conflict…whiny don’t you and Russia play your war games in California…winner her California, or Putin and Biden could settle this UFC style…lmfao.

    Crimea is not stolen land.  It was given to Ukraine in 54’, Russia took it back.  You are living on stolen land, the cam about through genocide…

    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 27,148
    edited January 2022
    If you go in to protect Ukraine. Let me know, and I'll try to throw in some SAAB JAS 39 Gripen.





    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Meltdown99 said:

     This is Europes problem.  They can defend Ukraine…or not. 

    Why would it be Europe's problem? And not a global international community's?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739
    Meltdown99 said:

     This is Europes problem.  They can defend Ukraine…or not. 

    Why would it be Europe's problem? And not a global international community's?
    Odd question coming from a citizen of country that did not really join the fight to defend your own continent against tyranny…but you expect us throw our young into a war over nothing?  Feel free to join the fight.  Send Ukraine weapons a a good luck note…
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99 said:

     This is Europes problem.  They can defend Ukraine…or not. 

    Why would it be Europe's problem? And not a global international community's?
    Odd question coming from a citizen of country that did not really join the fight to defend your own continent against tyranny…but you expect us throw our young into a war over nothing?  Feel free to join the fight.  Send Ukraine weapons a a good luck note…
    ooooh.... fiesty
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739
    Nope.  The only involvement I’d like to see from Canada is send them weapons, but we won’t do that…but hey, at least we sell Saudi Arabia weapons..
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    mrussel1 said:
    Ukraines on to you guys. He doesn’t want your bullshit war mongering…
    Yeah, nothing would advance the cause of peace and humanity like letting Russia take whatever the fuck territory they want.  Sounds like a great plan there, Neville. 
    You and your family are free to join the fight?  People who promote war but don’t join the fight, what does that make you. I know it’s easier to send other people to fight your war, especially poor people that the elites love to use in their wars games…maybe the Ukraine president thinks of these things like this, because we know you America don’, maybe unlike you and your cult politicians feels life is worth something.  This is Europes problem.  They can defend Ukraine…or not.  Burps it appears even Europe is not all that interested in an armed conflict…whiny don’t you and Russia play your war games in California…winner her California, or Putin and Biden could settle this UFC style…lmfao.

    Crimea is not stolen land.  It was given to Ukraine in 54’, Russia took it back.  You are living on stolen land, the cam about through genocide…

    We don't need to send ground troops to fight hand to hand.  We have the technology to oppose the Russians almost completely through remote warfare. This would not be a guerilla campaign.  And our soldiers are volunteers,  not draftees. So your argument about poor kids being sent to die doesn't make sense.  

    What do you think the purpose of NATO is? It was designed to specifically protect democratic nations from the threat posed by the Soviet Union. Well here we are.  Russia is threatening democratic nations.  We stop them otherwise the next country is Latvia, Lithuania,  Estonia,  Sweden. This is Putin's plan. 
    You are making arguments from 1967.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    Nope.  The only involvement I’d like to see from Canada is send them weapons, but we won’t do that…but hey, at least we sell Saudi Arabia weapons..
    Great go bitch to the Canadian govt. We're going to honor our NATO commitments. 
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 15,267
    Meltdown99 said:

     This is Europes problem.  They can defend Ukraine…or not. 

    Why would it be Europe's problem? And not a global international community's?
    Odd question coming from a citizen of country that did not really join the fight to defend your own continent against tyranny…but you expect us throw our young into a war over nothing?  Feel free to join the fight.  Send Ukraine weapons a a good luck note…
    we have an agreement to defend Ukraine don't we? Because they agreed to give up their nukes
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland1, Oakland2, Nashville, Louisville 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    Meltdown99 said:

     This is Europes problem.  They can defend Ukraine…or not. 

    Why would it be Europe's problem? And not a global international community's?
    Odd question coming from a citizen of country that did not really join the fight to defend your own continent against tyranny…but you expect us throw our young into a war over nothing?  Feel free to join the fight.  Send Ukraine weapons a a good luck note…
    we have an agreement to defend Ukraine don't we? Because they agreed to give up their nukes
    Yep.  100% 
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739

    Harry Patch



    When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle—thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Charles Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?[11]

    — Harry Patch, Nov. 2004

    Ukraine is not a NATO country…
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739
    You are free to post evidence of this so called formal agreement you got with the Ukraine?  Some of you say stuff that can’t be verified..

    The US and their military industrial complex can’t wait for a new war…after-all the US, so powerful has been the only country to invoke chapter 5.


    Give Peas A Chance…
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    You are free to post evidence of this so called formal agreement you got with the Ukraine?  Some of you say stuff that can’t be verified..

    The US and their military industrial complex can’t wait for a new war…after-all the US, so powerful has been the only country to invoke chapter 5.


    It’s not the US that is provoking here, so your statement makes zero sense.  We tried to negotiate with Putin in Berlin in 2007 and he responded by invading Georgia.  We tried again in 14 and he invaded Crimea.  But sure, let’s give him another bite at the apple.  I bet just a little bit of Ukraine is all he wants, right?  Maybe we can throw in the Sudetenland while we’re at it.  That should be enough.  
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 15,267
    edited January 2022
    You are free to post evidence of this so called formal agreement you got with the Ukraine?  Some of you say stuff that can’t be verified..

    The US and their military industrial complex can’t wait for a new war…after-all the US, so powerful has been the only country to invoke chapter 5.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

    Under the agreement, the signatories offered Ukraine "security assurances" in exchange for its adherence to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum bundled together a set of assurances that Ukraine had already held from the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe (CSCE) Final Act, the United Nations Charter and the Non-Proliferation Treaty[1] but the Ukrainian government found it valuable to have these assurances in a Ukraine-specific document.[18][19]
    The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated at political level, but it is not entirely clear whether the instrument is devoid entirely of legal provisions. It refers to assurances, but it does not impose a legal obligation of military assistance on its parties.[1][19] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations, "It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine."[18] In the US, neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, and they did not believe the US Senate would ratify an international treaty and so the memorandum was adopted in more limited terms.[19] The memorandum has a requirement of consultation among the parties "in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning the... commitments" set out in the memorandum.[20] Whether or not the memorandum sets out legal obligations, the difficulties that Ukraine has encountered since early 2014 may cast doubt on the credibility of future security guarantees that are offered in exchange for nonproliferation commitments.[21] Regardless, the United States publicly maintains that "the Memorandum is not legally binding."[22]
    Ukrainian international law scholars such as Olexander Zadorozhny maintain that the Memorandum is an international treaty because it satisfies the criteria for one, as fixed by the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (VCLT) and is “an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law".[23]
    China and France gave security assurances for Ukraine in separate documents. China's governmental statement of 4 December 1994 did not call for mandatory consultations if questions arose but only for "fair consultations". France's declaration of 5 December 1994 did not mention consultations.[1]
    Scholars assumed at the time that Ukraine's decision to sign the Budapest Memorandum was proof of Ukraine's development as a democracy and its desire to step away from the post-Soviet world and make first steps toward a European future. For 20 years, until the Ukrainian crisis,[24] the Ukrainian nuclear disarmament was an exemplary case of nuclear non-proliferation.
    "does not impose a legal obligation" but it is what it is....

    Post edited by Gern Blansten on
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland1, Oakland2, Nashville, Louisville 
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739
    You are free to go join the fight.  Crimea has belonged to Russia for hundreds of years.  They took back what was theirs to begin with.  It gets hard to take you seriously  when you don’t even know that Ukraine is a non nato country…and still no link to this so called formal agreement…

    as far as bitching to my government.  I do.  But I doubt canada has much to worry about.  I doubt Trudeau is committing us to battle other than training.  I’d like to think we learned our lesson from that shit show in Afghanistan…
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 15,267
    You are free to go join the fight.  Crimea has belonged to Russia for hundreds of years.  They took back what was theirs to begin with.  It gets hard to take you seriously  when you don’t even know that Ukraine is a non nato country…and still no link to this so called formal agreement…

    as far as bitching to my government.  I do.  But I doubt canada has much to worry about.  I doubt Trudeau is committing us to battle other than training.  I’d like to think we learned our lesson from that shit show in Afghanistan…
    Are you saying that my link to the agreement isn't a link to the agreement?
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland1, Oakland2, Nashville, Louisville 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    You are free to go join the fight.  Crimea has belonged to Russia for hundreds of years.  They took back what was theirs to begin with.  It gets hard to take you seriously  when you don’t even know that Ukraine is a non nato country…and still no link to this so called formal agreement…

    as far as bitching to my government.  I do.  But I doubt canada has much to worry about.  I doubt Trudeau is committing us to battle other than training.  I’d like to think we learned our lesson from that shit show in Afghanistan…
    Why are you so concerned with foreign soldiers?
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739
    I’m concerned with loss of  life based on lies and the US military industrial complex.  Why are you so willing to commit young people to a possible death when you and your family sits at home comfortably…that’s kind of cowardly, don’t you think..  why would I want is to go to war russia…this is not some 3rd world military…unlike Iraq and Afghanistan where  all they could do was throw dirt and sand at invading forces…

    Russia is a formidable military power….as a matter of fact they may have the better military and men who are committed to the cause.  Some poor black 18 year is only committed to staying alive…and who could blame him…adults asking kids to do their bidding.

    Give Peas A Chance…
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    You are free to go join the fight.  Crimea has belonged to Russia for hundreds of years.  They took back what was theirs to begin with.  It gets hard to take you seriously  when you don’t even know that Ukraine is a non nato country…and still no link to this so called formal agreement…

    as far as bitching to my government.  I do.  But I doubt canada has much to worry about.  I doubt Trudeau is committing us to battle other than training.  I’d like to think we learned our lesson from that shit show in Afghanistan…
    And stop spreading half information.  Crimea wasn't taken from the Russians and they are just taking backing what was theirs.  It was transferred  to the Ukraine by none other than Kruschev himself.  Want to give it back to who it belongs to? Then try the Tatars. Oh wait, can't do that because the Russians committed genocide against them,  just like they did to the Ukes. So fuck Russia and Putin. The Crimea doesn't belong to them and Kyiv sure as hell doesn't either.  

    Russian apologists piss me off. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    I’m concerned with loss of  life based on lies and the US military industrial complex.  Why are you so willing to commit young people to a possible death when you and your family sits at home comfortably…that’s kind of cowardly, don’t you think..  why would I want is to go to war russia…this is not some 3rd world military…unlike Iraq and Afghanistan where  all they could do was throw dirt and sand at invading forces…

    Russia is a formidable military power….as a matter of fact they may have the better military and men who are committed to the cause.  Some poor black 18 year is only committed to staying alive…and who could blame him…adults asking kids to do their bidding.

    Why aren’t you concerned with the Ukrainian fighters and citizens that will inevitably die in a hot war should we back down and not provide support?  They are foreign soldiers to you just like US soldiers.  Are the Ukrainians less to you, so their lives aren’t worth as much as US soldiers?  Were  the Georgian and Chechen deaths not tragic and unacceptable as well?  
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739
    Here’s an idea.  Europe can get off their ass and defend their own continent…this is not 1939…no need to ask what colour wine they want with their invasion…Germany won’t even commit to send weapons.  Some Swede posting in here thinking it’s a world problem…what a fucking joke.  Another one that want young North Americans to defend their continent while sitting drinking lattes…it takes real brave people to ask folks to go die for a losing cause when they won’t join the fight…

    Your opinion would change if the indigenous peoples decided to storm the capital demanding their land back, or some of it…your cult leaders would start a commission that would last a couple decades and you’d lock them up in prison…you should remind Biden that NA is occupied and stolen land.  Crimea, not really…


    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 27,148
    edited January 2022
    Europe can get off their ass and defend their own continent…this is not 1939…

    Why are you describing conflicts like it is 1839 then?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    edited January 2022
    Here’s an idea.  Europe can get off their ass and defend their own continent…this is not 1939…no need to ask what colour wine they want with their invasion…Germany won’t even commit to send weapons.  Some Swede posting in here thinking it’s a world problem…what a fucking joke.  Another one that want young North Americans to defend their continent while sitting drinking lattes…it takes real brave people to ask folks to go die for a losing cause when they won’t join the fight…

    Your opinion would change if the indigenous peoples decided to storm the capital demanding their land back, or some of it…your cult leaders would start a commission that would last a couple decades and you’d lock them up in prison…you should remind Biden that NA is occupied and stolen land.  Crimea, not really…


    Hey, North America is not one country.  Your opinion on what the US should do means shit.  You contribute zero to the US so it's no different than you speaking on behalf of Swedes, Ukes or the French.  I don't know why you think that living in Ontario gives you any province over the US actions.  

    Edit - and you're so fucking wrong about Crimea it makes me sick.  You always post about First Nations people and good for you.  Yet you dont' give a shit about the Tatars or the Ukrainians who were subject to genocidal Russian/Soviet action and say "Crimea, not really".  Ignorant. 
    Post edited by mrussel1 on
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,544
    Europe can get off their ass and defend their own continent…this is not 1939…

    Why are you describing conflicts like it is 1839 then?
    Great question and right on point.  Acting like European conflicts are provincial is an 1839 mindset.  People made these same arguments in 1914 and 1939.  They were wrong, over and over. 
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