Viruses / Vaccines 2

HughFreakingDillon

lastexitlondon said:

Its pointless because anyone who dares to question or feel for the families who lost someone to the vaccine is some kind of odd ball  with misinformation.  Any link or Dr thats put on here is made our to be not good enough or from somewhere  thats not real. I dont know what you are told or read over there but  many studies and actual numbers are starting to all say the same.  If anyone  dares to say wait a minute  this looks odd. They  must be  a nutter or political.  I guess time will tell. I may be a nutter. 
We all make our choices.  I just wish with hind sight we have full information before taking and giving our kids. We were all told take it to protect others.  So we did.

this is what bugs me. yes, people have been called nutters in the past. you know why? no sources. now but I haven't seen anyone call anyone names over the cardiac issue. AND only the "covid isn't real" shit and "the vaccine will alter your DNA" or whatever other crazy shit people say. 

I don't know how many times it has to be said. the cardiac issue is KNOWN. it's been widely reported. But it's also been widely reported that it is extremely rare, and the instance of cardiac issues due to covid far outweighs the issues with the vaccine. the data is out there. if you have different data suggesting it is widespread as you claim, show your work. 

Merkin Baller

It’s not surprising to hear that heart attacks are on the rise in recent years. We’ve known for some time that covid causes heart problems. From what I’ve read, the trend started in 2020, before the vaccine rollout in 2021. 

I did read that heart attacks trended upwards again in 2021, which may have had to do w/ the vaccine, or maybe it was a continuation of the trend from 2020, or maybe both? I also read that heart attack spikes coincided w/ covid surges such as omicron. 

If there are studies linking a higher rate of heart attacks w/ vaccination as compared to infection, I would be interested to read up on that. I didn’t come across any in my brief search. 

Bootlegger, I’m sorry about your father. 

lastexitlondon

Go Beavers said:

lastexitlondon said:

Its pointless because anyone who dares to question or feel for the families who lost someone to the vaccine is some kind of odd ball  with misinformation.  Any link or Dr thats put on here is made our to be not good enough or from somewhere  thats not real. I dont know what you are told or read over there but  many studies and actual numbers are starting to all say the same.  If anyone  dares to say wait a minute  this looks odd. They  must be  a nutter or political.  I guess time will tell. I may be a nutter. 
We all make our choices.  I just wish with hind sight we have full information before taking and giving our kids. We were all told take it to protect others.  So we did.

Be honest. Your source is a video from social media where headlines of sudden death scroll by and someone is off to the side making smug faces. 

Honest. I am.
I dont  have any social. I do watch some you tube but just  peer reviewed  trials and Dr or consultant  reports.lm not a modern guy 

23scidoo

I'm sorry, but I can't underestimate my intelligence anymore..

23scidoo

Merkin Baller said:

23scidoo said:

Merkin Baller said:

23scidoo said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

23scidoo said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

23scidoo said:

Can't convince me otherwise..how many boosters we will need..10..100??
they doing poor job 3 years now..

what's doing a poor job? the vaccines? seriously? saving million and millions of lives is doing a poor job?

so no matter what data is shown to you, you refuse to believe it. then the point of discussing this is...what exactly?

and that's work both sides..

not true. I believe consensus. you seem to believe the outliers. 

you know..the truth is controversial..

You keep talking in circles without making a point.

Do you even have one? 

i don't..waiting for the news to make one for me..

Exactly, 

You're just talking shit. 

23scidoo

lastexitlondon said:

Go Beavers said:

lastexitlondon said:

Its pointless because anyone who dares to question or feel for the families who lost someone to the vaccine is some kind of odd ball  with misinformation.  Any link or Dr thats put on here is made our to be not good enough or from somewhere  thats not real. I dont know what you are told or read over there but  many studies and actual numbers are starting to all say the same.  If anyone  dares to say wait a minute  this looks odd. They  must be  a nutter or political.  I guess time will tell. I may be a nutter. 
We all make our choices.  I just wish with hind sight we have full information before taking and giving our kids. We were all told take it to protect others.  So we did.

Be honest. Your source is a video from social media where headlines of sudden death scroll by and someone is off to the side making smug faces. 

Honest. I am.
I dont  have any social. I do watch some you tube but just  peer reviewed  trials and Dr or consultant  reports.lm not a modern guy 

You are dangerous rob !!!

https://notrickszone.com/2023/01/03/german-ethics-council-chairwoman-investigation-of-corona-debacle-dangerous-to-democracy/

lastexitlondon

Im just  a father  and a son.
That makes me ask questions and worry.  And to be clear im concerned about mrna vaccines. Thats all folks 

lastexitlondon

I am only dangerous  to myself fortunately 

benjs

lastexitlondon said:

Its pointless because anyone who dares to question or feel for the families who lost someone to the vaccine is some kind of odd ball  with misinformation.  Any link or Dr thats put on here is made our to be not good enough or from somewhere  thats not real. I dont know what you are told or read over there but  many studies and actual numbers are starting to all say the same.  If anyone  dares to say wait a minute  this looks odd. They  must be  a nutter or political.  I guess time will tell. I may be a nutter. 
We all make our choices.  I just wish with hind sight we have full information before taking and giving our kids. We were all told take it to protect others.  So we did.

I don't think this is true.

I think it's unrealistic that the media are in cahoots to the degree that if one found out it's all been a hoax, and proper scientific evidence was presented, that they would elect to suppress it at cost to their own credibility, the world's health and well-being, and frankly, at the expense of having an exclusive and enormous scoop.

If said doctors/experts' links yielded proper scientific evidence, or highly suggestive data, it would be nearly impossible to keep that quiet (amongst mainstream circles too - not just the 'unscared' web).

Next - on the nutter or political side, I see that as being more related to the unearned certainty with which people speak. "The virus is a hoax", "the vaccines are worse for you than the virus", "you just want to take away our freedom away with no proof that you need to", are lines which were pretty damn common, all embellished or spoken in absolutes. If people would just speak honestly and be like, "I just found this link. I looked through it, and here are the parts I disagree with. The person seems credible - any possible truths in here?" the response would be completely different than the "disregard your stupid mainstream data the sheep are trying to lie to you with" approaches that seem to be taken. The latter is completely void of any logic proving one way or another, and is simply a straw man attack. While I say this, I'll admit I've never seen this study 

On the 'acting with full information' side, the spread of a pandemic is a sure way to expedite medical advances. mRNA was seen as a massive and significant goal for vaccine styles. It had been studied and pursued for years, its use cases were contemplated (and I believe actually included the earlier SARS variant several years back), and the cost of doing nothing against the virus was seen as too great and perilous for all of humanity due to the dangerous combination of 'too transmissible' and 'too lethal'. 

In the interest of an unbiased journey to the truth (what ever that turns out to be), I recommend this published scientific journal on "Serious adverse events of special interest following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in randomized trials in adults" (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X22010283?via=ihub). Note that it doesn't convince me, because in spite of the data showing that there exists a material difference in serious adverse effects (SAEs) proven linked to CoVID vaccines in a few studies - I question the statistical significance of the risk differences.

My question is for anyone with more statistical abilities than I do (shouldn't be hard): while the number of sample patients in an experiment needs to be high enough to produce a statistically significant observation, does the number of events being observed need to be high enough too? For example, the above study used ~65,000 patients to yield its results about SAEs, with a total aggregated quantity of 333 SAEs per 10,000, as opposed to 288 per 10,000 in the placebo group. That sounds significant, but when you look at the breakdown, you realize that any one Serious Adverse Effect was witnessed in this study typically once or twice (far from statistically significant, and error has huge influence on an incidence observed once or twice, compared to 45 times). The values on the left of this chart are the actual observed incidents, and I don't see enough data points to buy into the outcomes suggested.

lastexitlondon

I dont think anyone suggested  a 'hoax'. 
Time will be the  answer as it has been all along from dec2019 to today  lots has been learned and will continue to be. 

benjs

lastexitlondon said:

I dont think anyone suggested  a 'hoax'. 
Time will be the  answer as it has been all along from dec2019 to today  lots has been learned and will continue to be. 

Oh, plenty of people suggested a 'hoax'. Many who were skeptical of CoVID's impact used terms like 'hoax', 'infringement on freedom', 'promoting human guinea pigs', etc. What I'm saying is that these are expressions framed antagonistically, rather than in the interest of seeking the truth. Given the politicization of everything over the last decade, that kind of rhetoric is unlikely to sway minds.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "time will be the answer". You had a theory, you expressed it, and others asked about data to back up said theory. I just showed you a study with official Pfizer and Moderna data, and explained why I didn't think it presented a cogent argument about the risk of vaccines relative to the organic risk of living your life day-to-day (i.e. unvaccinated). Time won't be the answer - discussion and debate in the interest of truth-seeking will be. Time, in this polarized environment, will just lead to feet planted more deeply in the sand.

lastexitlondon

I read your  link and its from nov 2020 trials,before the vaccine was rolled  out to millions. The study  looks to be of 10.000 unless i misunderstood which is a tiny tiny amount of people. I would  like to  see one dated now  with a much bigger group.  
And of course time is important  because  the  more time
 The  more people have boosters and the  larger the  study group. 

Merkin Baller

lastexitlondon said:

I read your  link and its from nov 2020 trials,before the vaccine was rolled  out to millions. The study  looks to be of 10.000 unless i misunderstood which is a tiny tiny amount of people. I would  like to  see one dated now  with a much bigger group.  
And of course time is important  because  the  more time
 The  more people have boosters and the  larger the  study group. 

Any thoughts about the uptick in heart attacks coinciding with the start of the pandemic in 2020 before the vaccine rollout? 

lastexitlondon

Yes covid

lastexitlondon

You think i dont  get it. I understand  covid causes all manor of horrible after effects.  Im not some covid denier  which is assumed when anyone has questions . 

HughFreakingDillon

lastexitlondon said:

You think i dont  get it. I understand  covid causes all manor of horrible after effects.  Im not some covid denier  which is assumed when anyone has questions . 

incorrect. I have questions. everyone does. as ben said, it's all in how it's framed. 

Merkin Baller

lastexitlondon said:

You think i dont  get it. I understand  covid causes all manor of horrible after effects.  Im not some covid denier  which is assumed when anyone has questions . 

Your comments these last few days left me with the impression that you think the vaccine is more dangerous than covid itself. 

Maybe I misread them. 

lastexitlondon

We obviously  make our own decisions and mine have changed  since omicron/family infections and i dont agree with some things i did before ,ive evolved.  frame it as you  like. 

lastexitlondon

Merkin Baller said:

lastexitlondon said:

You think i dont  get it. I understand  covid causes all manor of horrible after effects.  Im not some covid denier  which is assumed when anyone has questions . 

Your comments these last few days left me with the impression that you think the vaccine is more dangerous than covid itself. 

Maybe I misread them. 

I dont  see where i wrote  that
 Thats an assumption. 
Ive had 3 vaccines and decided i wont be having anymore wherever that takes me. I know many in uk are the  same  cant speak for usa or any other country  but here people are not queuing up for more

Merkin Baller

lastexitlondon said:

Merkin Baller said:

lastexitlondon said:

You think i dont  get it. I understand  covid causes all manor of horrible after effects.  Im not some covid denier  which is assumed when anyone has questions . 

Your comments these last few days left me with the impression that you think the vaccine is more dangerous than covid itself. 

Maybe I misread them. 

I dont  see where i wrote  that
 Thats an assumption. 
Ive had 3 vaccines and decided i wont be having anymore wherever that takes me. I know many in uk are the  same  cant speak for usa or any other country  but here people are not queuing up for more

You're taking your chances w/ the virus > the vaccine... I don't think I misunderstood your comments at all.