PJ fans in 12 step Recovery

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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,274
    Heatherj43 wrote:
    Okay I am back! 11 years clean, then a relapse for several years, and now I have over 90 days clean!!
    I went into treatment this time. The time I got 11 years clean I did it with just meetings.
    Wow...talk about things being right where you left off...or even worse. I ended up way worse than the first time around. I THOUGHT I hit a bottom that time. It was no where near where this relapse took me.Cunning, baffling and powerful!!
    I'm glad you made it. Been wondering where you've been. Hadnt seen you post for a while. Welcome as you always were Lady!!!!
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Heatherj43 wrote:
    Okay I am back! 11 years clean, then a relapse for several years, and now I have over 90 days clean!!
    I went into treatment this time. The time I got 11 years clean I did it with just meetings.
    Wow...talk about things being right where you left off...or even worse. I ended up way worse than the first time around. I THOUGHT I hit a bottom that time. It was no where near where this relapse took me.Cunning, baffling and powerful!!

    Welcome back. 90 days, well done you :)
    we're all going to the same place...
  • lockedlocked Boston Posts: 4,039
    Latest from Elle:
    feel free to share with anyone:
    One Crafty Mother

    Speaking Out - Redbook Article about Mothers, Drinking and the Power of Sharing
    Posted: 14 Sep 2011 08:09 PM PDT
    In the October issue of Redbook Magazine there is an article about moms, drinking and the power of sharing our stories. 

    I was interviewed for the article, (click here to view it online) along with my sober sisters Heather of The Extraordinary-Ordinary and Corinne of Trains, Tutus and Teatime.  Another amazing woman, Deb, is also featured in the article.  She isn't sober, and she has the grace and courage to talk openly about how she feels about her drinking.  Her story will resonate with so many women who have nagging thoughts about alcohol, but who don't feel safe talking about it. Deb is helping break down the walls of silence and fear, and I am so grateful to call her my friend.

    Sometimes I forget to remember that these incredible women wouldn't be in my life if I wasn't sober; their friendship is as essential to me as oxygen. 

    Although I've been writing about my addiction and recovery for a couple of years now, sometimes my own words make me cringe, and I wonder: why in the world am I putting myself out there like that?  There have been many times I held my finger nervously over the 'publish' button, contemplating whether I was sharing too much, aching to alter the story to make it prettier, or to make myself less vulnerable.

    Especially in the early days of blogging, I would click 'send to publish' quickly, before I could overthink things too much and change my mind.  Then I'd sit nervously by and peer at the comments with trepidation, bracing myself for judgment, condemnation or ignorance.

    They never came.

    What came instead were words of support and encouragement, and email after email from women saying "your story is exactly like mine", or "I see myself in your words".

    A pivotal moment in my own recovery happened early on, as I sat reluctantly in the back row of one of my first recovery meetings.  I hated being there, hated myself.  I thought I was irretrievably broken and weak.  I honestly believed I was a terrible person, that I was alone with my horrible thoughts and deeds.

    An attractive woman, a mother, about my age approached the podium and introduced herself as an alcoholic.  She didn't look the part, in my mind's eye.  She can't be nearly as bad as me, I thought.  The words that flowed from her mouth that night told my story.  We were the same; we thought the same, felt the same, did the same things while we were drinking.  She was two years sober, and she was glowing.

    In that moment, I realized I was not alone. That I was surrounded by people who understood, who had walked the path before me, who could help. Even more staggering to me was that my story moved them, too, helped them stay on the path of sobriety.  I didn't think I had anything to offer anybody, and here we were, leaning on each other in comraderie and kinship.

    So when I put my words out there, tell my truths here in this space or in a magazine article, I remember that feeling from that night. That bolt of electricity and hope that shot through my body:  I am not alone.  There are many women who struggle in silence, who aren't about to walk into a recovery meeting - not yet, and maybe not ever - and who would never know they weren't alone if it wasn't for the stories shared online, or in magazines, or memoirs. In these safe places they can see themselves in the words, and realize there is hope.  There are thousands upon thousands of women exactly like them who have fought back addiction and won, a day at a time.

    Writing my truths here has brought me great healing, too, and the unbelievable people I have met on this path - people like Corinne, Heather, Deb and so many more - are one of the biggest gifts I have received in recovery.  The emails I get from women who are struggling - who gulp back the fear and type out their truths - they help me so much.  I am humbled by their bravery, inspired by their honesty and grace.

    Addiction is a disease of silence and isolation.  If you're reading this and you are struggling in silence and shame, please know you are not alone. Find someone safe - reach out and connect with someone who understands.  Try a recovery meeting, join a recovery chat room, or send an email to a sober blogger whose story touches you.  We understand.

    The response from the Redbook article is amazing; I have received many emails from women who saw themselves in our stories, and are taking that first brave step of reaching out and telling their truth - some of them for the first time ever.

    A big thank you to Redbook for tackling this sensitive, controversial topic - the more we talk openly about this, the more we can heal. 

    And an extra special thank you to Nancy Ramsey, author of the article, for her professionalism, talent and kindness. 



    You are subscribed to email updates from One Crafty Mother
    "This here's a REQUEST!"
    EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
    10/25/13 Hartford
  • Same as this time last year (almost to the day I felt the same and posted here)... business is freaking me out.
    Only difference being that this year we now have three kids and are going to sign on a mortgage that we currently can't afford and pay a deposit that leaves us nothing in the bank - and then we have to hope and pray that clients come.

    I'm angry with a lot of people in the family for a situation that has occurred surrounding all of this, afraid of financial issues, and feeling very very much out of my depth.

    It's one of those situations where if I think about it I just want to throw up but if I don't then I know it is avoidance.

    I need to trust a HP right now.
    we're all going to the same place...
  • we're all going to the same place...
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,274
    Taking a leap of faith . I have just secured a personal loan that will enable me to attend a truck driving school. I have always wanted to drive for a living. Any time I've wanted to quit a job , its driving that comes to mind.


    Up to now, its always been that perfect thing, this desire. The right decision. Now that its been made AND acted upon, we'll see if its the right move.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyrat wrote:
    Taking a leap of faith . I have just secured a personal loan that will enable me to attend a truck driving school. I have always wanted to drive for a living. Any time I've wanted to quit a job , its driving that comes to mind.


    Up to now, its always been that perfect thing, this desire. The right decision. Now that its been made AND acted upon, we'll see if its the right move.

    Hey man, that is great!

    Right move or wrong move? Most times it is never possible to tell, since we can't lead double lives and play out the other scenario, can we? But it's always better to try something new than do nothing at all if the current state we are in is something like inertia. I'll spare you any more cod philosophy.

    I'm really happy for you. It sounds like a great adventure. :D
    we're all going to the same place...
  • I think last night was it. Done. Kaput. No more. Had too many watching the world series. I don't even care about baseball. Any excuse to have a rye, I suppose.

    I used to just like to party. But last weekend I had no money, and I started to NEED A DRINK. I've never felt the need for a drink, ever. Better stop now before it gets worse.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • oona leftoona left Posts: 1,677
    I think last night was it. Done. Kaput. No more. Had too many watching the world series. I don't even care about baseball. Any excuse to have a rye, I suppose.

    I used to just like to party. But last weekend I had no money, and I started to NEED A DRINK. I've never felt the need for a drink, ever. Better stop now before it gets worse.


    I'd like to scream, "Get out, while you still can!!!!!," but it seems like you've got that inclination already.

    There are plenty of resources available to you, this board included. The people on here are very supportive, and can definitely help fill in a lot of gaps between other endeavors, kind of like spackle ;)

    I hope you do nip this in the bud now. It'll only get worse, I'm afraid.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,274
    oona left wrote:
    I think last night was it. Done. Kaput. No more. Had too many watching the world series. I don't even care about baseball. Any excuse to have a rye, I suppose.

    I used to just like to party. But last weekend I had no money, and I started to NEED A DRINK. I've never felt the need for a drink, ever. Better stop now before it gets worse.


    I'd like to scream, "Get out, while you still can!!!!!," but it seems like you've got that inclination already.

    There are plenty of resources available to you, this board included. The people on here are very supportive, and can definitely help fill in a lot of gaps between other endeavors, kind of like spackle ;)

    I hope you do nip this in the bud now. It'll only get worse, I'm afraid.
    Nothing to be afraid of. If you drink like I did, it does get worse. Just a fact of existence for an alcoholic. Some people's bottoms are much higher than others but the fact is the same. Powerlessness over alcohol.

    The ONLY question that remains is do you want to DO something about it? I waited an awful long time deciding if I was going to do something about it. In fact I hoped someone else was going to do it for me. Turns out it doesnt work that way.


    If you are in fact like me in this way , simply just not drinking is not enough. Because just not will not last for long. Eventually a drink will be drank, if you are like me, it wont be just "A" drink.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • shermsherm Seattle, Wa Posts: 708
    I have to say, sometimes I really miss the days when I was on a path to recovery. Instead im drinking a beer, eating xanax, and watching baseball. I have nothing but respect and admiration for those of you who have been able to stay clean, or at least doing your best to.
    Detroit 03, Toronto 03, Toledo 04, Kitchener 05, London 05, Cleveland 06, Detroit 06, Cincinnati 06, Chicago 07, Mansfield 08, EV Chicago 08, East Troy 11, Pensacola 12, EV Jax 12, Wrigley 13, Pittsburgh 13, Dallas 13, OKC 13, Detroit 14, Ft Lauderdale 16, Miami 16, Tampa 16, Jax 16, Sea 18 
  • mickeyrat wrote:
    The ONLY question that remains is do you want to DO something about it? I waited an awful long time deciding if I was going to do something about it. In fact I hoped someone else was going to do it for me. Turns out it doesnt work that way.

    not yet. at the moment I'm going to try just abstaining. my shrink told me today he agreed that's a good place to start, given my drinking patterns (not hugely serious, but a problem in my life nonetheless).

    I have been pondering this decision for a ridiculously long time. I actually had made the decision before, but then backed out when it wasn't convenient. I've finally come to the realization that it will never be a good time to quit. Just like when I quit smoking years ago. But I know this is going to be MUCH harder.

    I'm not naive enough to think that last night I had my last drink. I highly doubt I did. But I'm conscious of the problem and what it has done to my life, so that's a start.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • megatronmegatron Posts: 3,420
    tomorrow will be my 2 year anny of hitting rock bottom..then the wonderful drive down to rehab.
    i did 2 months of treatment and only managed 3 more sober months after deciding sobriety is for weenies. i have since tried being sober maybe 4 times since then without lasting more than a month. the most recent was last week when i noticed my production at work dropping off. i had a few drinks this weekend and am just going through the motions.

    i'm not evil when i drink, just lazy and selfish. this is not a good life.

    i know i need to quit but i already have my relapse planned before i do. old friends from school coming to visit, first dates, taking clients golfing....i really need to get over this stuff.
  • oona leftoona left Posts: 1,677
    I'm not sure what I was working with my sponsor about at the time, but she asked me if I had any hold outs - any pre-negotiated circumstances that I would allow myself to drink (or whatever else).

    I had two:

    1. If I ever met my favorite writer, Robert Anton Wilson, I would allow myself to smoke a spliff while we chatted.

    2. When the Cubs win the World Series, I would allow myself to drink.

    Never did it cross my mind that the most important band in my life would ever release a beer :lol:

    The other two haven't happened (RAW passed away, and the Cubs are still the Cubs), but the reservations faded without me even noticing.

    Here I am, grateful as all get out to be sober today, and there is Pearl Jam beer out there. I have no interest at all in it. I'm perfectly content to await the release of Pearl Jam Iced Coffee.

    This stuff is here, for anyone that wants it. I'm nothing special. I could not have done this on my own.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,274
    oona left wrote:
    I'm not sure what I was working with my sponsor about at the time, but she asked me if I had any hold outs - any pre-negotiated circumstances that I would allow myself to drink (or whatever else).

    I had two:

    1. If I ever met my favorite writer, Robert Anton Wilson, I would allow myself to smoke a spliff while we chatted.

    2. When the Cubs win the World Series, I would allow myself to drink.

    Never did it cross my mind that the most important band in my life would ever release a beer :lol:

    The other two haven't happened (RAW passed away, and the Cubs are still the Cubs), but the reservations faded without me even noticing.

    Here I am, grateful as all get out to be sober today, and there is Pearl Jam beer out there. I have no interest at all in it. I'm perfectly content to await the release of Pearl Jam Iced Coffee.

    This stuff is here, for anyone that wants it. I'm nothing special. I could not have done this on my own.
    :clap::clap: :thumbup: :think: 8-) HEY!!! I know you!!! You're just LIKE me!!!
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • doing surprisingly well so far. went out with my wife for dinner over the weekend. she had a drink, I had a Becks 0%. there's a bottle of vodka sitting 5 feet away from me and I'm not touching it. although, I don't usually drink during the week anyway.

    jamming this weekend will be a test.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Soon
    Just, not enough.
    I need more.
    Nothing seems to satisfy.
    I said, I dont want it.
    I just need it.
    To breathe, to feel, to know Im alive.
  • i shit and i stinki shit and i stink Posts: 1,122
    edited November 2011
    hanging on, hanging on, hanging on...

    bought a house, now got a mortgage, wife's father refuses to talk to us ever again for buying it....
    planned 4 days decorating, didn't happen cos my baby spent a week in hosital with breathing problems...
    wife also spent a week in hospital at his side, leaving me with the other 2 kids and work to juggle...
    health fears, money fears, family fears, future fears...

    and through it all I sometimes think "I'd like a drink" but I know that what I'm really thinking is "I'd like to get drunk and totally black this shit out". But then I had a 'drunk dream' about it all last night and it was horrible; it felt horrible, it smelt horrible, i felt disconnected and afraid of what I would do or what would happen to me. I think I experienced that thing where I actually felt repelled by the idea of a drink.

    I have a feeling that things are gonna keep getting harder for a while, although right now it is tough to imagine, but I also have a feeling that it will be okay and that I don't need to drink over it.
    Post edited by i shit and i stink on
    we're all going to the same place...
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,274
    One working day left til career change!! Off into the great unknown.

    Happy to be leaving under better circumstances this time. I am torn about it though. The stores new manager has earned my loyalty. Part of me feels bad for springing this on him without giving him the chance to have a replacement in place.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • oona leftoona left Posts: 1,677
    mickeyrat wrote:
    One working day left til career change!! Off into the great unknown.

    Happy to be leaving under better circumstances this time. I am torn about it though. The stores new manager has earned my loyalty. Part of me feels bad for springing this on him without giving him the chance to have a replacement in place.

    Best of luck in your new endeavors!! We'll get updates, I'm hoping ;)

    As for the situation with your store manager, you seem like the kind of guy who knows how to keep his side of the street clean.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,274
    oona left wrote:
    mickeyrat wrote:
    One working day left til career change!! Off into the great unknown.

    Happy to be leaving under better circumstances this time. I am torn about it though. The stores new manager has earned my loyalty. Part of me feels bad for springing this on him without giving him the chance to have a replacement in place.

    Best of luck in your new endeavors!! We'll get updates, I'm hoping ;)

    As for the situation with your store manager, you seem like the kind of guy who knows how to keep his side of the street clean.
    Took some time to learn!!!! I've worked at this company twice since being sober. The first time... Umm I was not a shining example of the book in action.

    well lets just say I leaving the right way this time!! :mrgreen:
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • lockedlocked Boston Posts: 4,039
    CHRIS CORNELL GIVES ADVICE TO HIS 18-YEAR-OLD SELF

    “If given a chance to write a letter to his 18-year-old self, Cornell would give some basic advice: “Don’t drink,” he said.

    “And, that’s serious. For me, that’s one, because I never wrote; I was never creative while drinking, and there were these periods of not drinking and just kind of white-knuckling it and writing and recording, and then drinking a lot and coming into the studio hung over and being in the studio drunk and never being able to do anything to the level or to the degree that I thought that I should be. I’m proud of everything that I did, but I think it was a lot more difficult than it needed to be.”

    http://audioinkradio.com/2011/11/soundg ... e-drinking
    "This here's a REQUEST!"
    EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
    10/25/13 Hartford
  • Only just now saw this thread... my photo
    >>> is my tattoo on my right shoulder. It's my alcohol sobriety date.

    It was 5 years this past september.

    Inside Job is huge...
    -Chris
    Male, 34

    I'm on Facebook - facebook.com/christopher.leesye1

    1998 Brisbane 2
    2003 Brisbane 1
    2006 LA 1 & 2
    2008 LA 2, San Diego 1 (EV)
    2009 LA 1, 2, 3 & 4, San Diego
    2011 St. Louis (EV)
    2012 Tulsa 1 & 2 (EV)
    2013 Chicago, Dallas & OKC
  • Okay, big day today, the first meeting of our second English group here in Wroclaw.

    the Saturday group has been running a year and a half now and we are up to about a dozen members, usually about 6 to 10 on each meeting. Seemed like the right time to get a mid-week meeting going.

    It's incredible for me to think that when I first got sober, in Sept 09, there was no English group and I spent 9 months going to only Polish meetings (although for the last three of those there were a couple of other English speakers I had met but who were still drinking) and now I have a CHOICE of what English-speaking meeting I want to go to each week!! Awesome :D

    if you are ever in Eastern Europe on a Wednesday night and have nothing to do, you know where to come... ;)
    we're all going to the same place...
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,274
    locked wrote:
    CHRIS CORNELL GIVES ADVICE TO HIS 18-YEAR-OLD SELF

    “If given a chance to write a letter to his 18-year-old self, Cornell would give some basic advice: “Don’t drink,” he said.

    “And, that’s serious. For me, that’s one, because I never wrote; I was never creative while drinking, and there were these periods of not drinking and just kind of white-knuckling it and writing and recording, and then drinking a lot and coming into the studio hung over and being in the studio drunk and never being able to do anything to the level or to the degree that I thought that I should be. I’m proud of everything that I did, but I think it was a lot more difficult than it needed to be.”

    http://audioinkradio.com/2011/11/soundg ... e-drinking
    Huh. Seems to hint at being in recovery now with the "white-knuckling it" statement. Audioslaves lyrics seemed to hint at that as well. AT least I heard it in there.

    Its like musically/lyrically AIC was IN the problem, PJ was seeking the solution or at the least was hope filled about a solution and SG/AS were In the solution.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 39,274
    Okay, big day today, the first meeting of our second English group here in Wroclaw.

    the Saturday group has been running a year and a half now and we are up to about a dozen members, usually about 6 to 10 on each meeting. Seemed like the right time to get a mid-week meeting going.

    It's incredible for me to think that when I first got sober, in Sept 09, there was no English group and I spent 9 months going to only Polish meetings (although for the last three of those there were a couple of other English speakers I had met but who were still drinking) and now I have a CHOICE of what English-speaking meeting I want to go to each week!! Awesome :D

    if you are ever in Eastern Europe on a Wednesday night and have nothing to do, you know where to come... ;)
    SWEET!!!!!!

    Get it listed as soon as possible? Who knows how many come to town on business during the week that might need a meeting.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyrat wrote:
    Okay, big day today, the first meeting of our second English group here in Wroclaw.

    the Saturday group has been running a year and a half now and we are up to about a dozen members, usually about 6 to 10 on each meeting. Seemed like the right time to get a mid-week meeting going.

    It's incredible for me to think that when I first got sober, in Sept 09, there was no English group and I spent 9 months going to only Polish meetings (although for the last three of those there were a couple of other English speakers I had met but who were still drinking) and now I have a CHOICE of what English-speaking meeting I want to go to each week!! Awesome :D

    if you are ever in Eastern Europe on a Wednesday night and have nothing to do, you know where to come... ;)
    SWEET!!!!!!

    Get it listed as soon as possible? Who knows how many come to town on business during the week that might need a meeting.

    Might wait a few weeks for the listing and group conscience, etc. We need to see if it gets off the ground first. Right now there are about 4 people who can make it, so we'll have to see if interest is retained over the coming weeks. I hope it does. The Saturday mornings are more and more difficult for me to make, I just feel like it takes so much out of the weekend when that is the only time I have left with the family
    we're all going to the same place...
  • it's been nearly 3 weeks now.

    this sucks. I don't see myself lasting very long with this.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • it's been nearly 3 weeks now.

    this sucks. I don't see myself lasting very long with this.

    What is 'this'? Are you trying cold turkey or making use of some tools and support?
    Either way, if you don't see yourself lasting, look at some other options. there are plenty of ways and means of making it a pleasure and not a chore.

    Even if you are not in a 12 step program, there is a good book called "living sober" published by AA which is a real help in the first weeks of sobriety. It offers a lot of comfort and advice.

    There is also a good questionnaire for those who think they may have a drink issue here:
    http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=71

    Good luck, man. Hang in there.
    we're all going to the same place...
  • it's been nearly 3 weeks now.

    this sucks. I don't see myself lasting very long with this.

    What is 'this'?

    'this' is not drinking, and the fact that now my life has become a daily count instead of just LIFE. a struggle to maintain the new status quo that I don't even want.

    I enjoy having a drink. I enjoy the taste, the feeling. anyway, I probably shouldn't have posted this here. it's probably not helping others.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
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