Pearl Jam albums in Dolby Atmos surround

dobyblue

bazzer said:

dobyblue said:

With headphones the sound comes from a single driver for each ear, so the sound ALWAYS comes from the same spots. I am not good with ambiguous descriptions and don't have a clear understanding of what your second paragraph is trying to convey. But if you captured a sound moving in 360 degrees in a circle on your left side from 2' away (closest point) to 10' away (furthest point) you would have no idea on playback whether the sound was moving away from you or not, nor whether it was moving in a circular pattern. If you were told it was moving in a circular pattern you would have no idea whether it was counter-clockwise or clockwise unless you were told. If you were told it was moving in a circular pattern clockwise, your brain would perceive that. If I was told it was moving in a counter-clockwise pattern my brain would perceive that. The only thing we are both guaranteed to get right if we listen without any information or visual cues ahead of time is that the sound is on the left side.

With surround sound you do not need to be told and you do not need visual cues, you can place what the sound is doing because it's coming from a point in the room that your multi-speaker system is able to reproduce using multiple drivers around the room.

I'll give one more example, if I record the sound of a train approaching a bridge, in stereo playback you would know when the train hits  the recording point because of the Doppler effect, but you would only be guessing whether it had come from in front or behind unless you were told ahead of time or have a visual cue (movie for example). We could listen to the same thing and you could say it went front to back while I say back to front. We each have a 50/50 chance of being right. In an Atmos system without any cues or information, unless you have some hearing impairment you should find 100% of people will correctly identify which direction the train was travelling.

It's simple science, the "two ears" argument just doesn't make sense as it's referring to HEARING, not reproduction of sound.

Your examples don't take into account phase differences or reflections based on the shape of your head/ears/torso etc. Sure, a pure stereo reproduction can only really offer left/right positioning but the use of a HRTF allows point positioning in 3D space.

You seem to be suggesting that the only way to simulate 3D sounds is by having 3D sources but that's just not the case. Any decent binaural recording will show what's possible, I'm sure you've heard the virtual barbershop. Not impressed? Even Tchad's dog running around at the start of Rival had some definite 3D-ness. In other words, just because the sound comes from 2 spots on either side of your head doesn't mean your brain perceives it that way. That's obvious, right?

Those examples don't need to, those things will not affect your ability to discern directionality in an Atmos HT. And I'm not suggesting any such thing, I'm not sure how you get that given the examples I've given that specifically discuss directionality being experienced! You can get directionality from the multiple different vocal parts in the NIN cover of Memorabilia from the Closer to God CD5 - what I'm stating is that whether it's moving counter-clockwise or clockwise will be experienced differently by a group of 100 of us about 50/50 unless you're told while listening, "isn't it cool how the different vocal tracks are swirling clockwise around your head?" Now we will all hear it moving clockwise because we've been cued to. Similarly if someone said counter-clockwise, now we'd all be hearing that. If this single had been mixed into 5.1, we would all hear the directionality the same and if someone attempted to offer a cue that was incorrect, we would all with 100% consistency rebuke the cue. If you listen to the 5.1 mix of "Closer" from TDS, that buzz saw sound in the song's climax (heh heh) will ALWAYS go from the front left of the room around to the rear right in a counter-clockwise direction.

strilo

Incidentally, that buzz saw sound on "Closer" is one of the first major music-in-surround moments for me. That and the Beatles Love were sonic epiphanies for me. And they collectively started the obsession I now have with music in surround.

foriginalsin

dobyblue said:

foriginalsin said:

LastStopOnTheWestCoastLine said:

strilo said:

There's no way Bluetooth has the bandwidth to pass Atmos. It can't even pass lossless stereo, it has to be compressed. If you were using Airplay or some other Wifi format, maybe you could get the full Atmos experience, but it won't do Atmos over Bluetooth. Also, if you get Avalanche on No Code, doesn't that mean it's the non-Atmos mix? When I listen to No Code on Atmos, I get the original lyric from 1996.

Yeah, what i meant was that previously when i tried to cast to the receiver, the mix switched to regular stereo and I got the "avalanche" lyric.

When I tried to stream on receiver via Bluetooth instead, there was no "avalanche", so the app was definitely outputting the Atmos mix.

Thanks for your insights. That was my suspicion as well (that Bluetooth wouldn't be able to transmit Atmos signals with decent fidelity).

I am assuming your receiver is streaming over its own wifi. You cannot stream atmos over bluetooth. Atmos is an uncompressed digital format. Airplay maxes out at 16 bit/44.1khz. If you airplay a dolby atmos mix, it will downsample the mix to its own version of dolby atmos stereo. This is the mix meant for headphones which probably gives some simulated surround effect that people here seem to be enjoying. Its possible you may be listening to that mix but it is not the true dolby atmos mix. 

Right now the only way to listen to this seems to be:

apple music app on a compatible device, (like an apple 4k tv), that sends a hardwired digital signal over hdmi to a receiver that can decode dolby atmos, that outputs to at least a 5.1 speaker system, preferably more channels like 7.1 or 9.1 etc. 

All Atmos is compressed, the only uncompressed digital formats are PCM (as LPCM or wav) and DSD.

Atmos/TrueHD is losslessly compressed, all streaming Atmos is DD+/Atmos which is lossless.

But yes, Atmos to any Atmos-compatible receiver requires HDMI.

I wonder why Atmos on Tidal seems so much easier to rip than Atmos on Apple, different container perhaps? Haven't looked into it that much, but so far all Atmos rips I've seen appear to come from Tidal's library.

Yes, my mistake. Atmos is compressed but still lossless. 

I recently signed up for the apple free trial. The only way i have been able to listen to true lossless atmos and high res audio is to use the camera adapter kit to send usb to my DAC. Obviously, the atmos is being down sampled to 2 channel. The hi res files in 24/96 or other sample rates work great. 

What i have I gathered thru research on the internet is that anytime you wireless stream apple music, it sends it over AAC, regardless if you are using airplay, (which technically can do cd quality sound) or casting.  

If that is true, then the only way to listen to higher quality audio is to use the camera kit unless you have an apple tv 4k. 

dobyblue

foriginalsin said:

dobyblue said:

foriginalsin said:

LastStopOnTheWestCoastLine said:

strilo said:

There's no way Bluetooth has the bandwidth to pass Atmos. It can't even pass lossless stereo, it has to be compressed. If you were using Airplay or some other Wifi format, maybe you could get the full Atmos experience, but it won't do Atmos over Bluetooth. Also, if you get Avalanche on No Code, doesn't that mean it's the non-Atmos mix? When I listen to No Code on Atmos, I get the original lyric from 1996.

Yeah, what i meant was that previously when i tried to cast to the receiver, the mix switched to regular stereo and I got the "avalanche" lyric.

When I tried to stream on receiver via Bluetooth instead, there was no "avalanche", so the app was definitely outputting the Atmos mix.

Thanks for your insights. That was my suspicion as well (that Bluetooth wouldn't be able to transmit Atmos signals with decent fidelity).

I am assuming your receiver is streaming over its own wifi. You cannot stream atmos over bluetooth. Atmos is an uncompressed digital format. Airplay maxes out at 16 bit/44.1khz. If you airplay a dolby atmos mix, it will downsample the mix to its own version of dolby atmos stereo. This is the mix meant for headphones which probably gives some simulated surround effect that people here seem to be enjoying. Its possible you may be listening to that mix but it is not the true dolby atmos mix. 

Right now the only way to listen to this seems to be:

apple music app on a compatible device, (like an apple 4k tv), that sends a hardwired digital signal over hdmi to a receiver that can decode dolby atmos, that outputs to at least a 5.1 speaker system, preferably more channels like 7.1 or 9.1 etc. 

All Atmos is compressed, the only uncompressed digital formats are PCM (as LPCM or wav) and DSD.

Atmos/TrueHD is losslessly compressed, all streaming Atmos is DD+/Atmos which is lossless.

But yes, Atmos to any Atmos-compatible receiver requires HDMI.

I wonder why Atmos on Tidal seems so much easier to rip than Atmos on Apple, different container perhaps? Haven't looked into it that much, but so far all Atmos rips I've seen appear to come from Tidal's library.

Yes, my mistake. Atmos is compressed but still lossless. 

I recently signed up for the apple free trial. The only way i have been able to listen to true lossless atmos and high res audio is to use the camera adapter kit to send usb to my DAC. Obviously, the atmos is being down sampled to 2 channel. The hi res files in 24/96 or other sample rates work great. 

What i have I gathered thru research on the internet is that anytime you wireless stream apple music, it sends it over AAC, regardless if you are using airplay, (which technically can do cd quality sound) or casting.  

If that is true, then the only way to listen to higher quality audio is to use the camera kit unless you have an apple tv 4k. 

Sorry - too late for me to edit my post. When I typed this...

"Atmos/TrueHD is losslessly compressed, all streaming Atmos is DD+/Atmos which is lossless."
...what I meant to type was "all streaming Atmos is DD+/Atmos which is LOSSY"

All Atmos on Blu-ray is TrueHD/Atmos and therefore lossless. At least, I've never seen the lossy version on an optical disc.

strilo

Which is why I would love it if Pearl Jam would eventually release these Atmos mixes on Blu Ray.

demetrios

strilo said:

Which is why I would love it if Pearl Jam would eventually release these Atmos mixes on Blu Ray.

Ah, yes please!

strilo

I'm honestly surprised they haven't released the Gigaton Visual Album on Blu Ray. 

2-feign-reluctance

strilo said:

I'm honestly surprised they haven't released the Gigaton Visual Album on Blu Ray. 

The fact it is streaming only perhaps says a bit about 1) difficulty with production fucked up supply chain 2) wanting to reach digital natives and generate some affinity for PJ in that group

bjmjpl

Finally cancelled tidal, was simple

On Apple... From atv4k.. To marantz... 

ABSOLUTE GAMECHANGER

find someone who has it for real...

Totally new experience... 

Complete discrete tracking of each instrument, to hear the riffs each in their crystal clear totality 

10 Dolby Atmos Daddies

Josh did amazing work here... So great to have a fan at the helm... 

Interesting Lee and shockingly I think these might actually be better then the gigaton mix which I don't really get

Wowsa 

bjmjpl

Let me know if you have ever heard the tambourine in Jeremy before.... And I'm a drummer... 

strilo

2-feign I do imagine it's supply chain to a certain extent. 

strilo

bjmjpl said:

Finally cancelled tidal, was simple

On Apple... From atv4k.. To marantz... 

ABSOLUTE GAMECHANGER

find someone who has it for real...

Totally new experience... 

Complete discrete tracking of each instrument, to hear the riffs each in their crystal clear totality 

10 Dolby Atmos Daddies

Josh did amazing work here... So great to have a fan at the helm... 

Interesting Lee and shockingly I think these might actually be better then the gigaton mix which I don't really get

Wowsa 

I'm so glad you've had such a great experience! I will say, I do LOVE the Atmos mix of Gigaton, but it's definitely a different sort of vibe/animal than the other two. But then I am still amazed that the album so far that REALLY shines in Atmos is No Code. I would never have guessed that, but it is mindblowingly good.

Dr.Teeth and the Electric Mayh

Is anyone still having the issue with In My Tree having the first few seconds cut on Apple Music?

strilo

I should check that. Haven't listened in a while...

Dr.Teeth and the Electric Mayh

We got a Sonos arc and I have been diving in to all of the atmos available. Kinda disappointed with pj mixes, especially gigaton, after listening to other artists who have atmos mixes. The Beatles stuff is outrageously good. 

strilo

Can't get good surround content from a soundbar.

Dr.Teeth and the Electric Mayh

strilo said:

Can't get good surround content from a soundbar.

I disagree. The mix for abbey road was all over the room. It was awesome. 

strilo

It might be interesting, but it doesn't hold a candle to an actual surround Atmos system. I've done comparisons.

vedderman

Does anybody know if Dolby Atmos and 360 Reality Audio are the same mixes for Ten and No Code?

Lennon_Cobain

vedderman said:

Does anybody know if Dolby Atmos and 360 Reality Audio are the same mixes for Ten and No Code?

The mixes appear to be different.  The center channel of the Dolby Atmos mixes tend to have Eddie's vocals whereas that is not the case with 360 Reality Audio. For example, Alive:

Dolby Atmos > 5.1 Downmix


360 Reality Audio > 5.1