Cleveland Indians to drop "Indians" from team name after 105 years

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,590
    oh yeah  GO BROWNS!  
  • OnWis97OnWis97 Posts: 5,056
    mrussel1 said:
    As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
    As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

    I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
  • OnWis97OnWis97 Posts: 5,056
    mrussel1 said:
    oh yeah  GO BROWNS!  

    Browns fans still interested in December...2020 is a crazy year.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,590
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    oh yeah  GO BROWNS!  

    Browns fans still interested in December...2020 is a crazy year.
    Yeah, we're usually plotting terrible draft strategies at this point. 
  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 11,717
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
    As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

    I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.
    I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.
  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 6,950
    MayDay10 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
    As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

    I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.
    I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.
    Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 16,839
    How about The Strangest Tribe?
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,590
    bbiggs said:
    MayDay10 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
    As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

    I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.
    I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.
    Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

    This is where I am.  And like I said earlier, I have heard nothing negative about the Tribe down here in Virginia.  My daughter just graduated from William and Mary and it isn't an issue there, and that's not exactly a conservative school. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,590
    Poncier said:
    How about The Strangest Tribe?
    Clearly we need to rename our little family here. 
  • OnWis97OnWis97 Posts: 5,056
    bbiggs said:
    MayDay10 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
    As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

    I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.
    I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.
    Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

    I can't speak for how much offense anyone would take.  But I think part of the problem is that the history of Native American naming of teams is full not only of bad names but bad imagery; all the stuff that was portrayed in cartoons, etc, feathers, weaponry, caricatures. It's difficult for me to articulate this, but it really makes it seem like Native Americans were a bit of a novelty to white America; almost "semi-human." It can be racist even if it's not hate.

    People sometimes called the Indians the "Tribe" already ("Go Tribe!") and even that seemed a little gross to me. These names was never meant to "honor" anyone as much as they were to "mascotize" them. A move like this would be seen by some almost as a willful defiance of "PC culture" at worst or clinging to something not worth clinging to, at best. Meanwhile, in Atlanta they're playing drums and making a tomahawk motion with their arms* and Cleveland would be clinging to their "heritage." "Tribe" would probably have to come with some other meaning of the word (kind of like the Warriors did about 20 years ago with that robo-dude logo.The Peoria Chiefs went from native imageryl to a dalmatian firefighter (i.e., "Fire Chief"), which was probably an OK solution for a minor league team but would seem really odd in the big leagues (and we'd be hearing about how "PC" it is until we die). I think "the Tribe" would have the same problem they have today, which is almost no imagery to use.

    And "badge of honor" is a really tough sell because, again, the history is difficult to overcome.  I think the upgrade in "honor" from Indians to Tribe is negligible.

    As I see it, the team had the following choices:
    • Continue to be the Indians and have almost no imagery.
    • Continue to be the Indians and make a very large-scale outreach effort to work with Ohio tribes (or some other group) on imagery.
    • Make a clean break. If they're not going to keep the name, I just don't see the concept of being "native" as worth fighting for.

    (As an aside, MLB doesn't have any singular names and this would seem a little 1990s NBA/NHL expansion for a league built on tradition.)

    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 11,717
    bbiggs said:
    MayDay10 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
    As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

    I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.
    I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.
    Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

    Its about continuing to profit off the characterization of a race of people who seem to be making it clear that they are not comfortable with this stuff.  i dont know if they will take as much offense or not.  Im sure some people will.  Maybe "Tribe" will be considered over-the-line in 15 years?   
    You know fans will come dressed in head dresses.  Maybe bring foam tomahawks, gotta be careful what is depicted on merchandise, etc...  It will still keep the door open for Chief Wahoo.   Would people just call them the "Indians" like they currently call them the "Tribe"?  

    Tribe also leaves them where they are now for branding, which is kind of a purgatory/nowhere to go.  I sense the team would like a clean break from anything Native American so they can sell merch and create sharper looking uniforms
  • OnWis97OnWis97 Posts: 5,056
    I wonder how many people decried this name change as PC in 1980.



    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Posts: 36,809
    edited December 2020
    "Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

    and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 
    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • JeBurkhardtJeBurkhardt Posts: 4,797
    OnWis97 said:
    I wonder how many people decried this name change as PC in 1980.



    I have a friend that went to Pekin high school, but after the name change thankfully.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,590
    "Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

    and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 
    I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  
  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 11,717
    When I hear tribe, I automatically think first of a teepee like the ones in bugs bunny cartoons.
  • erebuserebus Posts: 566
    Cleveland Clan then?
    1996: Toronto
    2003: St. Paul
    2005: Thunder Bay
    2008: West Palm Beach, Tampa
    2009: Chicago I, Chicago II
    2010: Boston
    2011: Toronto I, Toronto II, Winnipeg
    2012: Missoula
    2013: London, Pittsburgh, Buffalo
    2014: St. Paul, Milwaukee
    2016: Quebec City, Ottawa, Toronto I, Toronto II
    2022: Hamilton, Toronto 
    2023: St. Paul I, St. Paul II
    2024: Vancouver I, Vancouver II
  • mrussel1 said:
    "Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

    and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 
    I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  
    fair enough. I'll change that to: i'd say the vast majority of people (outside of cleveland baseball fans) think of native americans when the word tribe is said. 
    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 Posts: 10,739
    Just move away from anything 1st nation related.  Should not be hard to do...

    You can not take a name that is traditionally used by 1st nations and use it for your shitty baseball team in your shitty city on your stolen land...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    OnWis97 said:
    bbiggs said:
    MayDay10 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
    As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

    I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.
    I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.
    Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

    I can't speak for how much offense anyone would take.  But I think part of the problem is that the history of Native American naming of teams is full not only of bad names but bad imagery; all the stuff that was portrayed in cartoons, etc, feathers, weaponry, caricatures. It's difficult for me to articulate this, but it really makes it seem like Native Americans were a bit of a novelty to white America; almost "semi-human." It can be racist even if it's not hate.

    People sometimes called the Indians the "Tribe" already ("Go Tribe!") and even that seemed a little gross to me. These names was never meant to "honor" anyone as much as they were to "mascotize" them. A move like this would be seen by some almost as a willful defiance of "PC culture" at worst or clinging to something not worth clinging to, at best. Meanwhile, in Atlanta they're playing drums and making a tomahawk motion with their arms* and Cleveland would be clinging to their "heritage." "Tribe" would probably have to come with some other meaning of the word (kind of like the Warriors did about 20 years ago with that robo-dude logo.The Peoria Chiefs went from native imageryl to a dalmatian firefighter (i.e., "Fire Chief"), which was probably an OK solution for a minor league team but would seem really odd in the big leagues (and we'd be hearing about how "PC" it is until we die). I think "the Tribe" would have the same problem they have today, which is almost no imagery to use.

    And "badge of honor" is a really tough sell because, again, the history is difficult to overcome.  I think the upgrade in "honor" from Indians to Tribe is negligible.

    As I see it, the team had the following choices:
    • Continue to be the Indians and have almost no imagery.
    • Continue to be the Indians and make a very large-scale outreach effort to work with Ohio tribes (or some other group) on imagery.
    • Make a clean break. If they're not going to keep the name, I just don't see the concept of being "native" as worth fighting for.

    (As an aside, MLB doesn't have any singular names and this would seem a little 1990s NBA/NHL expansion for a league built on tradition.)

    Damn. From the perspective of one who’s not into sports and teams and whatnot, what you wrote was well-said and very thought-provoking. I’m apt to agree with you. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,590
    Just move away from anything 1st nation related.  Should not be hard to do...

    You can not take a name that is traditionally used by 1st nations and use it for your shitty baseball team in your shitty city on your stolen land...
    Fuck off. You Toronto fans are just pissed because we kick your ass regularly. 
  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 11,717
    OnWis97 said:
    bbiggs said:
    MayDay10 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    As the most die hard Indians fan that you'll meet (except of course John Adams who lugs the drum into every game), I'm okay with the name changing at this point.  I don't like the Spiders, the Naps, or any of the old names.  I'd go with the Tribe. That would create continuity and the reality is, no fan is ever going to stop saying "Hey, when's the Tribe on tonight?".  They are the Tribe and they play at the Jake.  It's that simple.  
    As an aside, the College of William and Mary changed their name a number of years ago to the Tribe, for the same reason.  Works fine down here. 

    I feel like teams that make this change are going to make a far bigger departure from native names than this. "Tribe" isn't much better than "Indians."  I see some people suggest Washington Warriors and while that's not as grotesque as their previous name, it seems like the smart move it to just move totally away from that and make sure not to be going through this same thing in ten years.
    I agree with this.  "Tribe" still opens the door to all sorts of Native American characterization and such.  If they are doing such a major move as renaming a 120 year old sports team, they are going to make sure they are well out of the crosshairs.
    Would Native Americans take offense to the word "tribe" under any circumstances?  I'm thinking through this and don't see how it could be perceived as offensive or characterizing.  I think it is factual that Native Americans were often times part of tribes that they took great pride in being a part of.  It would seem more of a badge of honor than a negative connotation.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on Native American history, but much of this we learned at a very young age.  I'm just missing the potential negative fallout from a move like that.

    I can't speak for how much offense anyone would take.  But I think part of the problem is that the history of Native American naming of teams is full not only of bad names but bad imagery; all the stuff that was portrayed in cartoons, etc, feathers, weaponry, caricatures. It's difficult for me to articulate this, but it really makes it seem like Native Americans were a bit of a novelty to white America; almost "semi-human." It can be racist even if it's not hate.

    People sometimes called the Indians the "Tribe" already ("Go Tribe!") and even that seemed a little gross to me. These names was never meant to "honor" anyone as much as they were to "mascotize" them. A move like this would be seen by some almost as a willful defiance of "PC culture" at worst or clinging to something not worth clinging to, at best. Meanwhile, in Atlanta they're playing drums and making a tomahawk motion with their arms* and Cleveland would be clinging to their "heritage." "Tribe" would probably have to come with some other meaning of the word (kind of like the Warriors did about 20 years ago with that robo-dude logo.The Peoria Chiefs went from native imageryl to a dalmatian firefighter (i.e., "Fire Chief"), which was probably an OK solution for a minor league team but would seem really odd in the big leagues (and we'd be hearing about how "PC" it is until we die). I think "the Tribe" would have the same problem they have today, which is almost no imagery to use.

    And "badge of honor" is a really tough sell because, again, the history is difficult to overcome.  I think the upgrade in "honor" from Indians to Tribe is negligible.

    As I see it, the team had the following choices:
    • Continue to be the Indians and have almost no imagery.
    • Continue to be the Indians and make a very large-scale outreach effort to work with Ohio tribes (or some other group) on imagery.
    • Make a clean break. If they're not going to keep the name, I just don't see the concept of being "native" as worth fighting for.

    (As an aside, MLB doesn't have any singular names and this would seem a little 1990s NBA/NHL expansion for a league built on tradition.)

    this is pretty right-on

    Over the past few years, they have been performing outreach with native american (and other community) groups.  I'm sure they presented logo, name, and branding ideas that would have kept the Indians name (or even Tribe).  

    Them getting to this point while citing their meetings with these groups as a catalyst for it is very telling.  
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,590
    mrussel1 said:
    "Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

    and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 
    I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  
    fair enough. I'll change that to: i'd say the vast majority of people (outside of cleveland baseball fans) think of native americans when the word tribe is said. 
    And my perspective is that of a life long Tribe fan. 
  • mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

    and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 
    I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  
    fair enough. I'll change that to: i'd say the vast majority of people (outside of cleveland baseball fans) think of native americans when the word tribe is said. 
    And my perspective is that of a life long Tribe fan. 
    and your perspective, while personally valid (like mine), is moo (also like mine). 


    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 41,890
    mrussel1 said:
    "Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

    and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 
    I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

    That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

    "a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

    ...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

    There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
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  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 16,839
    erebus said:
    Cleveland Clan then?
    But since K is the symbol for a strikeout, the marketing team has come up with lots of great ideas using the letter K, so they are going with Cleveland Klan.

    This weekend we rock Portland
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,590
    brianlux said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

    and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 
    I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

    That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

    "a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

    ...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

    There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

    So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,590
    Aren't the Beastie Boys millionaires because of cultural appropriation?
  • mrussel1 said:
    brianlux said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

    and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 
    I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

    That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

    "a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

    ...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

    There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

    So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?
    basketball shoes are for black people only? news to me. 

    paying homage via the arts is not the same as caricaturizing a whole group of people based on racist tropes. 
    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,590
    mrussel1 said:
    brianlux said:
    mrussel1 said:
    "Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

    and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 
    I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

    That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

    "a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

    ...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

    There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

    So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?
    basketball shoes are for black people only? news to me. 

    paying homage via the arts is not the same as caricaturizing a whole group of people based on racist tropes. 
    No,  no.  You know damn well the shoes are a style issue,  not strictly for playing.  Second it is appropriation and white people are getting rich on it, even the arts.  Third,  no one is arguing to keep the name Indians.  The question is whether Tribe is appropriate.  It's not racist. It's not a caricature. Brian said it's appropriation.  That's true.  But how is it insulting or any different than the examples I put forth. 
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