#46 President Joe Biden

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Comments

  • If you’re in a crowd that built a gallows and starts chanting “hang mike pence” and then storms the Capitol looking for Mike Pence…. Yeah, you didn’t “get caught up” in something. You failed to remove yourself from the scene. 

    These were adults, no? Let’s stop making excuses for them. 
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,179
    edited September 19
    And mace if your still around, my “trigger” comment was in reference to the FBI mar a lago raid and not Jan six. Yes I mention Jan six as proof they are willing to resort to violence, but my comment was 100% influenced by the scores of reports that maga world was pissed at the mar a lago raid and ready for civil war. So the discussion that followed is a bit off topic.

    So, it’s a bit funny, I was not ”interpreting” the Jan six riot in order to call maga world violent, I was literally following reports that they were ready for civil war after the FBI raided his home. No interpreting there, they specifically told us so.

    Below is my full comment. IMO it’s apparent I am referring to the FBI mar a lago raid, and the subsequent civil war  - specifically from maga world - immediately after the FBI raid.




    Think of the practicality of arresting a former president. We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that. And the instant a Republican becomes president, Biden, Obama and Hilary will be sharing a cell.

    Its not worth the risk for simply trump  taking documents. Now if they have evidence trump was up to something nefarious with a foreign enemy, that could be different 


    edit, for reference, this original comment is in the “indictment” thread 9/5, not this one,
    Post edited by Lerxst1992 on
  • “Big problems.” Part of every ex-POTUS’s vernacular. Even Tricky Dick said it.
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  • If you’re in a crowd that built a gallows and starts chanting “hang mike pence” and then storms the Capitol looking for Mike Pence…. Yeah, you didn’t “get caught up” in something. You failed to remove yourself from the scene. 

    These were adults, no? Let’s stop making excuses for them. 
    We don’t even make excuses for 14 year old school shooters who have been in prison 25 years. They are “adults” case closed 

    it’s a bit ridiculous to then jump through hoops to explain away the intent of actual fully grown adults like they are impulsive children who may not actually fully comprehend the results of their choices 
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 43,575
    When the next Jan 6 type of event happens, no doubt there will be plenty of people saying "well there were only a couple thousand people involved" in that one too....
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 7,579
    If you’re in a crowd that built a gallows and starts chanting “hang mike pence” and then storms the Capitol looking for Mike Pence…. Yeah, you didn’t “get caught up” in something. You failed to remove yourself from the scene. 

    These were adults, no? Let’s stop making excuses for them. 
    I don’t disagree with that. I’ve never said these people shouldn’t have been arrested or should be let out of jail.
    I just don’t believe the majority actually believed they would or could prevent Biden from being president from storming the Capitol that day. But we’re arguing other people’s intent who none of us ever met and could never know. It’s just hypothetical, and just my opinion.

    And circling back to my original post, certainly not evidence that millions are willing to take up arms and “happy to pull the trigger,” which no one batted an eye over. But then get all upset when I say I personally don’t believe their intent was to overthrow the government because I don’t believe they thought they had a chance. They just wanted to create chaos.
    That doesn’t mean they are innocent or shouldn’t be arrested and prosecuted.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 7,579
    edited September 19
    And mace if your still around, my “trigger” comment was in reference to the FBI mar a lago raid and not Jan six. Yes I mention Jan six as proof they are willing to resort to violence, but my comment was 100% influenced by the scores of reports that maga world was pissed at the mar a lago raid and ready for civil war. So the discussion that followed is a bit off topic.

    So, it’s a bit funny, I was not ”interpreting” the Jan six riot in order to call maga world violent, I was literally following reports that they were ready for civil war after the FBI raided his home. No interpreting there, they specifically told us so.

    Below is my full comment. IMO it’s apparent I am referring to the FBI mar a lago raid, and the subsequent civil war  - specifically from maga world - immediately after the FBI raid.




    Think of the practicality of arresting a former president. We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that. And the instant a Republican becomes president, Biden, Obama and Hilary will be sharing a cell.

    Its not worth the risk for simply trump  taking documents. Now if they have evidence trump was up to something nefarious with a foreign enemy, that could be different 


    edit, for reference, this original comment is in the “indictment” thread 9/5, not this one,
    I’m still around. After Nashville, had to pick up my guitar for the first time in a long time. Then I get sad knowing I’ll never be Mike.

    But this is what you said that I replied to:
    We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    I don’t know how to take that any way other than what happened Jan 6 is proof that millions will take up arms and be happy to pull the trigger if they don’t get their way.
    You may be talking about the Trump raid, but your proof millions will be happy to pull the trigger over it was Jan 6.
    I don’t see Jan 6 as proof millions will take up arms, kill millions more and create the biggest civil war the world has ever seen. I’m just not seeing that from Jan 6, over Mar a largo or anything else.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 43,575
    mace1229 said:
    If you’re in a crowd that built a gallows and starts chanting “hang mike pence” and then storms the Capitol looking for Mike Pence…. Yeah, you didn’t “get caught up” in something. You failed to remove yourself from the scene. 

    These were adults, no? Let’s stop making excuses for them. 
    I don’t disagree with that. I’ve never said these people shouldn’t have been arrested or should be let out of jail.
    I just don’t believe the majority actually believed they would or could prevent Biden from being president from storming the Capitol that day. But we’re arguing other people’s intent who none of us ever met and could never know. It’s just hypothetical, and just my opinion.


    There is ample evidence to the contrary.

    chinese-happy.jpg
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,747
    interested to hear Bidens remarks at the UN ....
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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited September 20
    mace1229 said:
    If you’re in a crowd that built a gallows and starts chanting “hang mike pence” and then storms the Capitol looking for Mike Pence…. Yeah, you didn’t “get caught up” in something. You failed to remove yourself from the scene. 

    These were adults, no? Let’s stop making excuses for them. 
    I don’t disagree with that. I’ve never said these people shouldn’t have been arrested or should be let out of jail.
    I just don’t believe the majority actually believed they would or could prevent Biden from being president from storming the Capitol that day. But we’re arguing other people’s intent who none of us ever met and could never know. It’s just hypothetical, and just my opinion.


    There is ample evidence to the contrary.

    The entire reason they were there was from the fringe internet and reading or watching just a little it was pretty clear what their goals were

    It’s important to remember the kind of threats being made in the same discussions when they were planning their attendance. Deciding to come wasn’t a decision made in a vacuum, the context matters. The wild threats probably boosted the attendance rather than causing people to stay home.

    if I get on an Al-Qaeda message board where violence is being discussed, participate in any manner or agree with any of it directly or indirectly, get hotel recommendations, share a car ride to DC with them or whatever, then I show up to the  gathering where they were making threats and violence happens and I actively participate in criminal behaviour, how can I possibly claim innocence from anything that happened?

    I couldn’t 


    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mace1229 said:
    If you’re in a crowd that built a gallows and starts chanting “hang mike pence” and then storms the Capitol looking for Mike Pence…. Yeah, you didn’t “get caught up” in something. You failed to remove yourself from the scene. 

    These were adults, no? Let’s stop making excuses for them. 
    I don’t disagree with that. I’ve never said these people shouldn’t have been arrested or should be let out of jail.
    I just don’t believe the majority actually believed they would or could prevent Biden from being president from storming the Capitol that day. But we’re arguing other people’s intent who none of us ever met and could never know. It’s just hypothetical, and just my opinion.

    And circling back to my original post, certainly not evidence that millions are willing to take up arms and “happy to pull the trigger,” which no one batted an eye over. But then get all upset when I say I personally don’t believe their intent was to overthrow the government because I don’t believe they thought they had a chance. They just wanted to create chaos.
    That doesn’t mean they are innocent or shouldn’t be arrested and prosecuted.
    The person who made the comment about millions of people willing to pull the trigger has engaged you already, I’m not going to speak for those words. 

    Regarding the intent of the people who stormed the capitol… they were there to “stop the steal”. That they didn’t think through the reality or ramifications of what that meant or entailed doesn’t change why they were there. You’re welcome to your opinion, but the fact is, they gathered at the ellipse, marched down to, and then stormed the capitol building with the intent of “stopping the steal”.

    If you want to argue they were conned / believed lies, fine, but to suggest we don’t know their intent defies logic. 
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,179
    mace1229 said:
    And mace if your still around, my “trigger” comment was in reference to the FBI mar a lago raid and not Jan six. Yes I mention Jan six as proof they are willing to resort to violence, but my comment was 100% influenced by the scores of reports that maga world was pissed at the mar a lago raid and ready for civil war. So the discussion that followed is a bit off topic.

    So, it’s a bit funny, I was not ”interpreting” the Jan six riot in order to call maga world violent, I was literally following reports that they were ready for civil war after the FBI raided his home. No interpreting there, they specifically told us so.

    Below is my full comment. IMO it’s apparent I am referring to the FBI mar a lago raid, and the subsequent civil war  - specifically from maga world - immediately after the FBI raid.




    Think of the practicality of arresting a former president. We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that. And the instant a Republican becomes president, Biden, Obama and Hilary will be sharing a cell.

    Its not worth the risk for simply trump  taking documents. Now if they have evidence trump was up to something nefarious with a foreign enemy, that could be different 


    edit, for reference, this original comment is in the “indictment” thread 9/5, not this one,
    I’m still around. After Nashville, had to pick up my guitar for the first time in a long time. Then I get sad knowing I’ll never be Mike.

    But this is what you said that I replied to:
    We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    I don’t know how to take that any way other than what happened Jan 6 is proof that millions will take up arms and be happy to pull the trigger if they don’t get their way.
    You may be talking about the Trump raid, but your proof millions will be happy to pull the trigger over it was Jan 6.
    I don’t see Jan 6 as proof millions will take up arms, kill millions more and create the biggest civil war the world has ever seen. I’m just not seeing that from Jan 6, over Mar a largo or anything else.

    His followers threatened civil war, and my best guess is that requires millions, not thousands. Jan six was certainly violent, whether or not there were a dozen, a hundred, or a thousand guns nearby.

    Trump is pandering to the violent extreme of his party, when he says “a storm is coming.”


    “On Tuesday, using his Truth Social platform, the Republican former president reposted an image of himself wearing a Q lapel pin overlaid with the words “The Storm is Coming.” In QAnon lore, the “storm” refers to Trump’s final victory, when supposedly he will regain power and his opponents will be tried, and potentially executed, on live television.”



    he sent an angry armed mob to the capitol; his followers threatened civil war when the FBI raided his club, and now he is embracing a violent conspiracy group cultist belief that judgement day is coming in order to kill democrats.

    the evidence is there, it’s daunting republicans are closing their eyes and ears to it.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,194
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
    No doubt some had that intent. But with 2500 people entering the building, and only a few dozen being Oak Keepers or Proud Boys and face gun or conspiracy charges. Why are most just facing trespassing or vandalism charges if that wasn't what most were there to do? Thats a serious question. After a yea long investigation, over 700 arrests, only very few face serious charges. I'm supposed to believe we have all this knowledge of everyone's intent, but we're just letting them off light?
    I'm not downplaying it or defending these people. They should have been arrested. I just don't think the average Joe who showed up believed they were going to overthrow the government that day. And based on the arrests and charges, the DOJ seems to agree with me. So they rushed the police, broke in, scared everyone off and made a mess instead. 
    :D:D:D:D


    Awww..  they made matching t-shirts!  That's toats adorbs.  It's like they were going to Disney.  
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited September 20
    “Stopping the steal” is a judicial function anyway. It was adjudicated many times and they lost the argument every time. Case closed

    Therefore anything they were trying to stop was by definition illegal/subversive/insurrection and thus an attempted overthrow of government by every single person inside the capital.

    It’s a text book example of vigilantism a which is also anarchy 

    Stop the steal attendees should have no leg to stand on. they aren’t empowered to stop anything and the fact they think they are empowered to do so is admitting insurrection 
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 7,579
    mace1229 said:
    And mace if your still around, my “trigger” comment was in reference to the FBI mar a lago raid and not Jan six. Yes I mention Jan six as proof they are willing to resort to violence, but my comment was 100% influenced by the scores of reports that maga world was pissed at the mar a lago raid and ready for civil war. So the discussion that followed is a bit off topic.

    So, it’s a bit funny, I was not ”interpreting” the Jan six riot in order to call maga world violent, I was literally following reports that they were ready for civil war after the FBI raided his home. No interpreting there, they specifically told us so.

    Below is my full comment. IMO it’s apparent I am referring to the FBI mar a lago raid, and the subsequent civil war  - specifically from maga world - immediately after the FBI raid.




    Think of the practicality of arresting a former president. We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that. And the instant a Republican becomes president, Biden, Obama and Hilary will be sharing a cell.

    Its not worth the risk for simply trump  taking documents. Now if they have evidence trump was up to something nefarious with a foreign enemy, that could be different 


    edit, for reference, this original comment is in the “indictment” thread 9/5, not this one,
    I’m still around. After Nashville, had to pick up my guitar for the first time in a long time. Then I get sad knowing I’ll never be Mike.

    But this is what you said that I replied to:
    We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    I don’t know how to take that any way other than what happened Jan 6 is proof that millions will take up arms and be happy to pull the trigger if they don’t get their way.
    You may be talking about the Trump raid, but your proof millions will be happy to pull the trigger over it was Jan 6.
    I don’t see Jan 6 as proof millions will take up arms, kill millions more and create the biggest civil war the world has ever seen. I’m just not seeing that from Jan 6, over Mar a largo or anything else.

    His followers threatened civil war, and my best guess is that requires millions, not thousands. Jan six was certainly violent, whether or not there were a dozen, a hundred, or a thousand guns nearby.

    Trump is pandering to the violent extreme of his party, when he says “a storm is coming.”


    “On Tuesday, using his Truth Social platform, the Republican former president reposted an image of himself wearing a Q lapel pin overlaid with the words “The Storm is Coming.” In QAnon lore, the “storm” refers to Trump’s final victory, when supposedly he will regain power and his opponents will be tried, and potentially executed, on live television.”



    he sent an angry armed mob to the capitol; his followers threatened civil war when the FBI raided his club, and now he is embracing a violent conspiracy group cultist belief that judgement day is coming in order to kill democrats.

    the evidence is there, it’s daunting republicans are closing their eyes and ears to it.
    So because a few threatened civil war, that means they have the millions required to maybe pull it off?
    Those threatening civil war are a very small minority of the far right. Not the majority of the party.
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited September 20
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    And mace if your still around, my “trigger” comment was in reference to the FBI mar a lago raid and not Jan six. Yes I mention Jan six as proof they are willing to resort to violence, but my comment was 100% influenced by the scores of reports that maga world was pissed at the mar a lago raid and ready for civil war. So the discussion that followed is a bit off topic.

    So, it’s a bit funny, I was not ”interpreting” the Jan six riot in order to call maga world violent, I was literally following reports that they were ready for civil war after the FBI raided his home. No interpreting there, they specifically told us so.

    Below is my full comment. IMO it’s apparent I am referring to the FBI mar a lago raid, and the subsequent civil war  - specifically from maga world - immediately after the FBI raid.




    Think of the practicality of arresting a former president. We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that. And the instant a Republican becomes president, Biden, Obama and Hilary will be sharing a cell.

    Its not worth the risk for simply trump  taking documents. Now if they have evidence trump was up to something nefarious with a foreign enemy, that could be different 


    edit, for reference, this original comment is in the “indictment” thread 9/5, not this one,
    I’m still around. After Nashville, had to pick up my guitar for the first time in a long time. Then I get sad knowing I’ll never be Mike.

    But this is what you said that I replied to:
    We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    I don’t know how to take that any way other than what happened Jan 6 is proof that millions will take up arms and be happy to pull the trigger if they don’t get their way.
    You may be talking about the Trump raid, but your proof millions will be happy to pull the trigger over it was Jan 6.
    I don’t see Jan 6 as proof millions will take up arms, kill millions more and create the biggest civil war the world has ever seen. I’m just not seeing that from Jan 6, over Mar a largo or anything else.

    His followers threatened civil war, and my best guess is that requires millions, not thousands. Jan six was certainly violent, whether or not there were a dozen, a hundred, or a thousand guns nearby.

    Trump is pandering to the violent extreme of his party, when he says “a storm is coming.”


    “On Tuesday, using his Truth Social platform, the Republican former president reposted an image of himself wearing a Q lapel pin overlaid with the words “The Storm is Coming.” In QAnon lore, the “storm” refers to Trump’s final victory, when supposedly he will regain power and his opponents will be tried, and potentially executed, on live television.”



    he sent an angry armed mob to the capitol; his followers threatened civil war when the FBI raided his club, and now he is embracing a violent conspiracy group cultist belief that judgement day is coming in order to kill democrats.

    the evidence is there, it’s daunting republicans are closing their eyes and ears to it.
    So because a few threatened civil war, that means they have the millions required to maybe pull it off?
    Those threatening civil war are a very small minority of the far right. Not the majority of the party.
    If you think it takes millions of people to pull that off, you are way off. 

    If you control just a few key points in the entire government it not that hard provided those key positions go along. It was closer than you think. 

    the majority of republicans in the house voted to not certify after the insurrection.  147 in total over both chambers. That’s a majority of all  elected republicans in the federal government 

    even more have continued to question the election based on no proof further undermining democracy 

    I can’t think of a single coup in any country that required anywhere near a million people 

    Civil war, overthrowing the government, having democracy itself implode is in effect the same thing. They all result in a power vacuum where an authoritarian ruler can seize power 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
    No doubt some had that intent. But with 2500 people entering the building, and only a few dozen being Oak Keepers or Proud Boys and face gun or conspiracy charges. Why are most just facing trespassing or vandalism charges if that wasn't what most were there to do? Thats a serious question. After a yea long investigation, over 700 arrests, only very few face serious charges. I'm supposed to believe we have all this knowledge of everyone's intent, but we're just letting them off light?
    I'm not downplaying it or defending these people. They should have been arrested. I just don't think the average Joe who showed up believed they were going to overthrow the government that day. And based on the arrests and charges, the DOJ seems to agree with me. So they rushed the police, broke in, scared everyone off and made a mess instead. 
    :D:D:D:D


    Awww..  they made matching t-shirts!  That's toats adorbs.  It's like they were going to Disney.  
    They literally made MAGA civil war sweaters and put the f’ing date on them. You couldn’t write this shit in Hollywood. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,194
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    And mace if your still around, my “trigger” comment was in reference to the FBI mar a lago raid and not Jan six. Yes I mention Jan six as proof they are willing to resort to violence, but my comment was 100% influenced by the scores of reports that maga world was pissed at the mar a lago raid and ready for civil war. So the discussion that followed is a bit off topic.

    So, it’s a bit funny, I was not ”interpreting” the Jan six riot in order to call maga world violent, I was literally following reports that they were ready for civil war after the FBI raided his home. No interpreting there, they specifically told us so.

    Below is my full comment. IMO it’s apparent I am referring to the FBI mar a lago raid, and the subsequent civil war  - specifically from maga world - immediately after the FBI raid.




    Think of the practicality of arresting a former president. We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that. And the instant a Republican becomes president, Biden, Obama and Hilary will be sharing a cell.

    Its not worth the risk for simply trump  taking documents. Now if they have evidence trump was up to something nefarious with a foreign enemy, that could be different 


    edit, for reference, this original comment is in the “indictment” thread 9/5, not this one,
    I’m still around. After Nashville, had to pick up my guitar for the first time in a long time. Then I get sad knowing I’ll never be Mike.

    But this is what you said that I replied to:
    We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    I don’t know how to take that any way other than what happened Jan 6 is proof that millions will take up arms and be happy to pull the trigger if they don’t get their way.
    You may be talking about the Trump raid, but your proof millions will be happy to pull the trigger over it was Jan 6.
    I don’t see Jan 6 as proof millions will take up arms, kill millions more and create the biggest civil war the world has ever seen. I’m just not seeing that from Jan 6, over Mar a largo or anything else.

    His followers threatened civil war, and my best guess is that requires millions, not thousands. Jan six was certainly violent, whether or not there were a dozen, a hundred, or a thousand guns nearby.

    Trump is pandering to the violent extreme of his party, when he says “a storm is coming.”


    “On Tuesday, using his Truth Social platform, the Republican former president reposted an image of himself wearing a Q lapel pin overlaid with the words “The Storm is Coming.” In QAnon lore, the “storm” refers to Trump’s final victory, when supposedly he will regain power and his opponents will be tried, and potentially executed, on live television.”



    he sent an angry armed mob to the capitol; his followers threatened civil war when the FBI raided his club, and now he is embracing a violent conspiracy group cultist belief that judgement day is coming in order to kill democrats.

    the evidence is there, it’s daunting republicans are closing their eyes and ears to it.
    So because a few threatened civil war, that means they have the millions required to maybe pull it off?
    Those threatening civil war are a very small minority of the far right. Not the majority of the party.
    I'm generally with Mace.  I think it's a small minority that feels this way and significantly smaller that would ever do anything about it.  They are generally a bunch of Cos players.  

    I think many did go to the Capital thinking they could stop the certification but they had no clue how.  By contrast, Team Trump used them to try and pressure Pence.  
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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited September 20
    mrussel1 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    And mace if your still around, my “trigger” comment was in reference to the FBI mar a lago raid and not Jan six. Yes I mention Jan six as proof they are willing to resort to violence, but my comment was 100% influenced by the scores of reports that maga world was pissed at the mar a lago raid and ready for civil war. So the discussion that followed is a bit off topic.

    So, it’s a bit funny, I was not ”interpreting” the Jan six riot in order to call maga world violent, I was literally following reports that they were ready for civil war after the FBI raided his home. No interpreting there, they specifically told us so.

    Below is my full comment. IMO it’s apparent I am referring to the FBI mar a lago raid, and the subsequent civil war  - specifically from maga world - immediately after the FBI raid.




    Think of the practicality of arresting a former president. We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that. And the instant a Republican becomes president, Biden, Obama and Hilary will be sharing a cell.

    Its not worth the risk for simply trump  taking documents. Now if they have evidence trump was up to something nefarious with a foreign enemy, that could be different 


    edit, for reference, this original comment is in the “indictment” thread 9/5, not this one,
    I’m still around. After Nashville, had to pick up my guitar for the first time in a long time. Then I get sad knowing I’ll never be Mike.

    But this is what you said that I replied to:
    We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    I don’t know how to take that any way other than what happened Jan 6 is proof that millions will take up arms and be happy to pull the trigger if they don’t get their way.
    You may be talking about the Trump raid, but your proof millions will be happy to pull the trigger over it was Jan 6.
    I don’t see Jan 6 as proof millions will take up arms, kill millions more and create the biggest civil war the world has ever seen. I’m just not seeing that from Jan 6, over Mar a largo or anything else.

    His followers threatened civil war, and my best guess is that requires millions, not thousands. Jan six was certainly violent, whether or not there were a dozen, a hundred, or a thousand guns nearby.

    Trump is pandering to the violent extreme of his party, when he says “a storm is coming.”


    “On Tuesday, using his Truth Social platform, the Republican former president reposted an image of himself wearing a Q lapel pin overlaid with the words “The Storm is Coming.” In QAnon lore, the “storm” refers to Trump’s final victory, when supposedly he will regain power and his opponents will be tried, and potentially executed, on live television.”



    he sent an angry armed mob to the capitol; his followers threatened civil war when the FBI raided his club, and now he is embracing a violent conspiracy group cultist belief that judgement day is coming in order to kill democrats.

    the evidence is there, it’s daunting republicans are closing their eyes and ears to it.
    So because a few threatened civil war, that means they have the millions required to maybe pull it off?
    Those threatening civil war are a very small minority of the far right. Not the majority of the party.
    I'm generally with Mace.  I think it's a small minority that feels this way and significantly smaller that would ever do anything about it.  They are generally a bunch of Cos players.  

    I think many did go to the Capital thinking they could stop the certification but they had no clue how.  By contrast, Team Trump used them to try and pressure Pence.  
    So out of curiosity why will they be going after Mark Milley so hard if the GOP wins back the house?

    they are openly accusing him of refusing to carry out trump’s orders.  We also know he would be the key to executing any plan of martial law/the military stepping in and it would not be feasible without him 

    we also know he wasn’t having any of that and the GOP has him as target #1

    martial law was discussed in the oval with Trump present and we know that too

    you need the capital to be breached or something dramatic to then militarise everything.  I can’t see that as two separate things. It was part of the same goal/plan. The capital insurrectionists were the pawns on the chess board. Expendable but essential
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,194
    That's an old survey.  It's also a terrible question that can lead to weird results based on your perspective.  

    if elected leaders will not protect America, the people must do it themselves, even if it requires violent actions.

    What if I'm not politically oriented and I get that question.  What does it mean that the gov't won't "protect" me?  Does that mean there are no police?  Does that mean there are looters running around adn I need to protect my family?  Well damn straight I would get violent to protect them.  

    That survey is too broad compared to the topic. 


  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,070
    edited September 20
    mrussel1 said:
    That's an old survey.  It's also a terrible question that can lead to weird results based on your perspective.  

    if elected leaders will not protect America, the people must do it themselves, even if it requires violent actions.

    What if I'm not politically oriented and I get that question.  What does it mean that the gov't won't "protect" me?  Does that mean there are no police?  Does that mean there are looters running around adn I need to protect my family?  Well damn straight I would get violent to protect them.  

    That survey is too broad compared to the topic. 


    Okay, how many is 12%?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/20/us/politics/political-violence-survey-united-states.html

    From the link:

    “These findings suggest a continuing alienation from and mistrust of American democratic society and its institutions,” the researchers from UC-Davis said in a manuscript. “Substantial minorities of the population endorse violence, including lethal violence, to obtain political objectives.”

    ignore “big problems” at your peril. Keep thinking it can’t happen here. These people aren’t going away. And they’re not going to stop.
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,194
    mrussel1 said:
    That's an old survey.  It's also a terrible question that can lead to weird results based on your perspective.  

    if elected leaders will not protect America, the people must do it themselves, even if it requires violent actions.

    What if I'm not politically oriented and I get that question.  What does it mean that the gov't won't "protect" me?  Does that mean there are no police?  Does that mean there are looters running around adn I need to protect my family?  Well damn straight I would get violent to protect them.  

    That survey is too broad compared to the topic. 


    Okay, how many is 12%?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/20/us/politics/political-violence-survey-united-states.html

    From the link:

    “These findings suggest a continuing alienation from and mistrust of American democratic society and its institutions,” the researchers from UC-Davis said in a manuscript. “Substantial minorities of the population endorse violence, including lethal violence, to obtain political objectives.”

    ignore “big problems” at your peril. Keep thinking it can’t happen here. These people aren’t going away. And they’re not going to stop.
    I can't even read the lede on the story due to the firewall. 
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,747
    theres a Capitol riot thread for this discussion,  just  sayin
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,747
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    That's an old survey.  It's also a terrible question that can lead to weird results based on your perspective.  

    if elected leaders will not protect America, the people must do it themselves, even if it requires violent actions.

    What if I'm not politically oriented and I get that question.  What does it mean that the gov't won't "protect" me?  Does that mean there are no police?  Does that mean there are looters running around adn I need to protect my family?  Well damn straight I would get violent to protect them.  

    That survey is too broad compared to the topic. 


    Okay, how many is 12%?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/20/us/politics/political-violence-survey-united-states.html

    From the link:

    “These findings suggest a continuing alienation from and mistrust of American democratic society and its institutions,” the researchers from UC-Davis said in a manuscript. “Substantial minorities of the population endorse violence, including lethal violence, to obtain political objectives.”

    ignore “big problems” at your peril. Keep thinking it can’t happen here. These people aren’t going away. And they’re not going to stop.
    I can't even read the lede on the story due to the firewall. 
    posted gift article  in riot thread

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • DewieCoxDewieCox Posts: 11,340
    mace1229 said:
    If you’re in a crowd that built a gallows and starts chanting “hang mike pence” and then storms the Capitol looking for Mike Pence…. Yeah, you didn’t “get caught up” in something. You failed to remove yourself from the scene. 

    These were adults, no? Let’s stop making excuses for them. 
    I don’t disagree with that. I’ve never said these people shouldn’t have been arrested or should be let out of jail.
    I just don’t believe the majority actually believed they would or could prevent Biden from being president from storming the Capitol that day. But we’re arguing other people’s intent who none of us ever met and could never know. It’s just hypothetical, and just my opinion.

    And circling back to my original post, certainly not evidence that millions are willing to take up arms and “happy to pull the trigger,” which no one batted an eye over. But then get all upset when I say I personally don’t believe their intent was to overthrow the government because I don’t believe they thought they had a chance. They just wanted to create chaos.
    That doesn’t mean they are innocent or shouldn’t be arrested and prosecuted.
    What was the point of creating chaos?
  • DewieCoxDewieCox Posts: 11,340
    edited September 20
    mace1229 said:
    And mace if your still around, my “trigger” comment was in reference to the FBI mar a lago raid and not Jan six. Yes I mention Jan six as proof they are willing to resort to violence, but my comment was 100% influenced by the scores of reports that maga world was pissed at the mar a lago raid and ready for civil war. So the discussion that followed is a bit off topic.

    So, it’s a bit funny, I was not ”interpreting” the Jan six riot in order to call maga world violent, I was literally following reports that they were ready for civil war after the FBI raided his home. No interpreting there, they specifically told us so.

    Below is my full comment. IMO it’s apparent I am referring to the FBI mar a lago raid, and the subsequent civil war  - specifically from maga world - immediately after the FBI raid.




    Think of the practicality of arresting a former president. We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that. And the instant a Republican becomes president, Biden, Obama and Hilary will be sharing a cell.

    Its not worth the risk for simply trump  taking documents. Now if they have evidence trump was up to something nefarious with a foreign enemy, that could be different 


    edit, for reference, this original comment is in the “indictment” thread 9/5, not this one,
    I’m still around. After Nashville, had to pick up my guitar for the first time in a long time. Then I get sad knowing I’ll never be Mike.

    But this is what you said that I replied to:
    We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    I don’t know how to take that any way other than what happened Jan 6 is proof that millions will take up arms and be happy to pull the trigger if they don’t get their way.
    You may be talking about the Trump raid, but your proof millions will be happy to pull the trigger over it was Jan 6.
    I don’t see Jan 6 as proof millions will take up arms, kill millions more and create the biggest civil war the world has ever seen. I’m just not seeing that from Jan 6, over Mar a largo or anything else.

    His followers threatened civil war, and my best guess is that requires millions, not thousands. Jan six was certainly violent, whether or not there were a dozen, a hundred, or a thousand guns nearby.

    Trump is pandering to the violent extreme of his party, when he says “a storm is coming.”


    “On Tuesday, using his Truth Social platform, the Republican former president reposted an image of himself wearing a Q lapel pin overlaid with the words “The Storm is Coming.” In QAnon lore, the “storm” refers to Trump’s final victory, when supposedly he will regain power and his opponents will be tried, and potentially executed, on live television.”



    he sent an angry armed mob to the capitol; his followers threatened civil war when the FBI raided his club, and now he is embracing a violent conspiracy group cultist belief that judgement day is coming in order to kill democrats.

    the evidence is there, it’s daunting republicans are closing their eyes and ears to it.
    I see stuff like “Red Sea moment coming” and “the big reveal will be so shocking, but so cleansing”….these people aren’t sane and there are millions of them. 10’s of millions if you count those not actively praying for it and simply hopeful that it happens. The fact that they ever believed this stuff, let alone still cling to it defies logic and sanity.
    Post edited by DewieCox on
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 7,471
    edited September 20
    DewieCox said:
    mace1229 said:
    If you’re in a crowd that built a gallows and starts chanting “hang mike pence” and then storms the Capitol looking for Mike Pence…. Yeah, you didn’t “get caught up” in something. You failed to remove yourself from the scene. 

    These were adults, no? Let’s stop making excuses for them. 
    I don’t disagree with that. I’ve never said these people shouldn’t have been arrested or should be let out of jail.
    I just don’t believe the majority actually believed they would or could prevent Biden from being president from storming the Capitol that day. But we’re arguing other people’s intent who none of us ever met and could never know. It’s just hypothetical, and just my opinion.

    And circling back to my original post, certainly not evidence that millions are willing to take up arms and “happy to pull the trigger,” which no one batted an eye over. But then get all upset when I say I personally don’t believe their intent was to overthrow the government because I don’t believe they thought they had a chance. They just wanted to create chaos.
    That doesn’t mean they are innocent or shouldn’t be arrested and prosecuted.
    What was the point of creating chaos?

    Had enough chaos been created, tfg could have invoked martial law and then the country would have been f'ed. That would have "stopped the steal" (which was, as we all know, their declared intent of being there). This was the plan, and it came closer to succeeding than a lot of people want to admit. 

    We're lucky no counter protestors showed up on 1/6. 
  • static111static111 Posts: 3,993
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • static111static111 Posts: 3,993
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    That's an old survey.  It's also a terrible question that can lead to weird results based on your perspective.  

    if elected leaders will not protect America, the people must do it themselves, even if it requires violent actions.

    What if I'm not politically oriented and I get that question.  What does it mean that the gov't won't "protect" me?  Does that mean there are no police?  Does that mean there are looters running around adn I need to protect my family?  Well damn straight I would get violent to protect them.  

    That survey is too broad compared to the topic. 


    Okay, how many is 12%?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/20/us/politics/political-violence-survey-united-states.html

    From the link:

    “These findings suggest a continuing alienation from and mistrust of American democratic society and its institutions,” the researchers from UC-Davis said in a manuscript. “Substantial minorities of the population endorse violence, including lethal violence, to obtain political objectives.”

    ignore “big problems” at your peril. Keep thinking it can’t happen here. These people aren’t going away. And they’re not going to stop.
    I can't even read the lede on the story due to the firewall. 
    posted gift article  in riot thread

    That article is disconcerting.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
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