#46 President Joe Biden

1189190192194195215

Comments

  • mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    They’re all too ignorant to actually plan a coup let alone actually accomplish a takeover.  
    It’s the quiet planners you have to watch out for
  • mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings. The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital was part of that 

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily 
    Yup... just because the attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election was poorly organized and executed doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election. 

    The reason behind those rubes storming the Capitol isn't up for debate. They were there to stop the certification of the 2020 election results because their cult leader told them to do so. 
  • mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings. The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital was part of that 

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily 
    Yup... just because the attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election was poorly organized and executed doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election. 

    The reason behind those rubes storming the Capitol isn't up for debate. They were there to stop the certification of the 2020 election results because their cult leader told them to do so. 
    I’m not disagreeing, I’m just saying they were too stupid to accomplish it for those who believed it was a coup attempt.  It takes a whole lotta smarts to accomplish something like that, more than just three months of planning, total military support, police support, lots of money, and much more.  
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited September 19
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    They’re all too ignorant to actually plan a coup let alone actually accomplish a takeover.  
    It’s the quiet planners you have to watch out for
    Not so sure, if martial law would have been declared  which Trump probably would have done if he thought the military would do it then that chaos is all the cover you need for the coup to be successful.

    I think the joint chiefs were having none of that, had they gone along who knows 

    When you can trigger military control on US soil, the commander in chief has unlimited power 

    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings. The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital was part of that 

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily 
    Yup... just because the attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election was poorly organized and executed doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election. 

    The reason behind those rubes storming the Capitol isn't up for debate. They were there to stop the certification of the 2020 election results because their cult leader told them to do so. 
    I’m not disagreeing, I’m just saying they were too stupid to accomplish it for those who believed it was a coup attempt.  It takes a whole lotta smarts to accomplish something like that, more than just three months of planning, total military support, police support, lots of money, and much more.  

    I'm not arguing as to how well thought out the plan was, I'm saying the reasoning behind the storming of the Capitol isn't up for debate. 

    For the record though, some people were more prepared and had a bigger plan in mind than others: 
    https://apnews.com/article/stewart-rhodes-arrested-oath-keepers-jan-6-insurrection-70019e1007132e8df786aaf77215a110
  • mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings. The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital was part of that 

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily 
    Yup... just because the attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election was poorly organized and executed doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election. 

    The reason behind those rubes storming the Capitol isn't up for debate. They were there to stop the certification of the 2020 election results because their cult leader told them to do so. 
    I’m not disagreeing, I’m just saying they were too stupid to accomplish it for those who believed it was a coup attempt.  It takes a whole lotta smarts to accomplish something like that, more than just three months of planning, total military support, police support, lots of money, and much more.  

    I'm not arguing as to how well thought out the plan was, I'm saying the reasoning behind the storming of the Capitol isn't up for debate. 

    For the record though, some people were more prepared and had a bigger plan in mind than others: 
    https://apnews.com/article/stewart-rhodes-arrested-oath-keepers-jan-6-insurrection-70019e1007132e8df786aaf77215a110
    I’m not even sure FF knows what Marshall law is let alone that he could declare it!  😂 I just hate when he gets credit for anything.  He’s been a lying manipulative bully con man his whole life.  

    I totally get what your saying though and I agree it was a fucked up situation and could have gotten much worse….so I’m not arguing either. 
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 7,579
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 

  • mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 43,575
    edited September 19
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings. The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital was part of that 

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily 
    Yup... just because the attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election was poorly organized and executed doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election. 

    The reason behind those rubes storming the Capitol isn't up for debate. They were there to stop the certification of the 2020 election results because their cult leader told them to do so. 
    I’m not disagreeing, I’m just saying they were too stupid to accomplish it for those who believed it was a coup attempt.  It takes a whole lotta smarts to accomplish something like that, more than just three months of planning, total military support, police support, lots of money, and much more.  

    I'm not arguing as to how well thought out the plan was, I'm saying the reasoning behind the storming of the Capitol isn't up for debate. 

    For the record though, some people were more prepared and had a bigger plan in mind than others: 
    https://apnews.com/article/stewart-rhodes-arrested-oath-keepers-jan-6-insurrection-70019e1007132e8df786aaf77215a110
    And as the Jan 6th Committee has laid out, there was coordination between the Oath Keepers and Trump team. They were not just some random group of guys. 

    I still don't understand how some are still so eager to downplay what happened that day, even after all we have learned about it...
    Post edited by The Juggler on
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited September 19
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
    The planning or lack of is debatable. This coup attempt started on election night. 

    There is documented discussions about seizing voting machines, martial law was discussed, lawsuits, not certifying, fake electors, misinformation etc 

    the fact these people showed up to do the only thing they could think of to do should have been expected. It was the last coup attempt and sort of scattered on its execution.  Had they been better prepared and captured the vice president or members of Congress it very well could have succeeded 

    There were multiple coup attempts . It’s unfortunate the spectacle of that day overshadows what was probably worse and somewhat better planned by people better placed within the government that preceded jan 6
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings. The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital was part of that 

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily 
    Yup... just because the attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election was poorly organized and executed doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election. 

    The reason behind those rubes storming the Capitol isn't up for debate. They were there to stop the certification of the 2020 election results because their cult leader told them to do so. 
    I’m not disagreeing, I’m just saying they were too stupid to accomplish it for those who believed it was a coup attempt.  It takes a whole lotta smarts to accomplish something like that, more than just three months of planning, total military support, police support, lots of money, and much more.  

    I'm not arguing as to how well thought out the plan was, I'm saying the reasoning behind the storming of the Capitol isn't up for debate. 

    For the record though, some people were more prepared and had a bigger plan in mind than others: 
    https://apnews.com/article/stewart-rhodes-arrested-oath-keepers-jan-6-insurrection-70019e1007132e8df786aaf77215a110
    And as the Jan 6th Committee has laid out, there was coordination between the Oath Keepers and Trump team. They were not just some random group of guys. 

    I still don't understand how some are still so eager to downplay what happened that day, even after all we have learned about it...
    It's denial. 
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited September 19
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings. The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital was part of that 

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily 
    Yup... just because the attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election was poorly organized and executed doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt to stop congress from certifying the results of the election. 

    The reason behind those rubes storming the Capitol isn't up for debate. They were there to stop the certification of the 2020 election results because their cult leader told them to do so. 
    I’m not disagreeing, I’m just saying they were too stupid to accomplish it for those who believed it was a coup attempt.  It takes a whole lotta smarts to accomplish something like that, more than just three months of planning, total military support, police support, lots of money, and much more.  

    I'm not arguing as to how well thought out the plan was, I'm saying the reasoning behind the storming of the Capitol isn't up for debate. 

    For the record though, some people were more prepared and had a bigger plan in mind than others: 
    https://apnews.com/article/stewart-rhodes-arrested-oath-keepers-jan-6-insurrection-70019e1007132e8df786aaf77215a110
    And as the Jan 6th Committee has laid out, there was coordination between the Oath Keepers and Trump team. They were not just some random group of guys. 

    I still don't understand how some are still so eager to downplay what happened that day, even after all we have learned about it...
    It's denial. 
    If you are an accessory as are a considerable portion of congress what else would you say?

    it’s not like they can call it what it was without acknowledging their role 

    people have been tried and convicted for far less for providing “material support” to terrorist organisations.  All those fringe groups have a straight line to many members of the Republican Party 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 7,579
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
    No doubt some had that intent. But with 2500 people entering the building, and only a few dozen being Oak Keepers or Proud Boys and face gun or conspiracy charges. Why are most just facing trespassing or vandalism charges if that wasn't what most were there to do? Thats a serious question. After a yea long investigation, over 700 arrests, only very few face serious charges. I'm supposed to believe we have all this knowledge of everyone's intent, but we're just letting them off light?
    I'm not downplaying it or defending these people. They should have been arrested. I just don't think the average Joe who showed up believed they were going to overthrow the government that day. And based on the arrests and charges, the DOJ seems to agree with me. So they rushed the police, broke in, scared everyone off and made a mess instead. 
  • mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
    No doubt some had that intent. But with 2500 people entering the building, and only a few dozen being Oak Keepers or Proud Boys and face gun or conspiracy charges. Why are most just facing trespassing or vandalism charges if that wasn't what most were there to do? Thats a serious question. After a yea long investigation, over 700 arrests, only very few face serious charges. I'm supposed to believe we have all this knowledge of everyone's intent, but we're just letting them off light?
    I'm not downplaying it or defending these people. They should have been arrested. I just don't think the average Joe who showed up believed they were going to overthrow the government that day. And based on the arrests and charges, the DOJ seems to agree with me. So they rushed the police, broke in, scared everyone off and made a mess instead. 
    :D:D:D:D


  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 43,575
    They're all on videotape literally yelling, ranting and raving, about how they wanted to hang the vice president and to take back their country back with force. A lot of the magamorons who pled guilty said they were there trying to help Trump stay in office. Most of them probably thought Trump was going to be there with them since he said he was going to and they believe everything that chronological liar says.

    You can't say "I'm not downplaying it" and then go and literally downplay it, Mace. lol
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited September 19
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
    No doubt some had that intent. But with 2500 people entering the building, and only a few dozen being Oak Keepers or Proud Boys and face gun or conspiracy charges. Why are most just facing trespassing or vandalism charges if that wasn't what most were there to do? Thats a serious question. After a yea long investigation, over 700 arrests, only very few face serious charges. I'm supposed to believe we have all this knowledge of everyone's intent, but we're just letting them off light?
    I'm not downplaying it or defending these people. They should have been arrested. I just don't think the average Joe who showed up believed they were going to overthrow the government that day. And based on the arrests and charges, the DOJ seems to agree with me. So they rushed the police, broke in, scared everyone off and made a mess instead. 
    It shouldn’t matter and that shouldn’t be the charges


    Some people were there to overthrow the government the rest were there during the commission of that felony and should be charged with the larger crime 

    if not there are literally thousands of people in jail for murder or armed robbery because they were the getaway driver in some kind of robbery gone bad and never touched a gun or went inside. What they did or didn’t do is irrelevant, they were there during the felony crime and are subject to all crimes that occurred 

    at some point you become responsible for the crimes other people commit if you are there. To me once you go inside you already know you are committing a crime. Individual intent shouldn’t matter.

    the “small group” needed the larger group to breach the capital for their plan to have any chance of success. Those average rioters directly helped the oath keepers for example. The fact that they knew or didn’t know they were helping an insurrection or what their intent was shouldn’t matter one bit 

    The prosecution could have been more consistent in their charging if they wanted to. And it wouldn’t have been overly aggressive as they already do that all the time 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 43,575
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
    No doubt some had that intent. But with 2500 people entering the building, and only a few dozen being Oak Keepers or Proud Boys and face gun or conspiracy charges. Why are most just facing trespassing or vandalism charges if that wasn't what most were there to do? Thats a serious question. After a yea long investigation, over 700 arrests, only very few face serious charges. I'm supposed to believe we have all this knowledge of everyone's intent, but we're just letting them off light?
    I'm not downplaying it or defending these people. They should have been arrested. I just don't think the average Joe who showed up believed they were going to overthrow the government that day. And based on the arrests and charges, the DOJ seems to agree with me. So they rushed the police, broke in, scared everyone off and made a mess instead. 
    :D:D:D:D


    just a few average joes who got caught up in a riot!
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,221
    he's not downplaying it. he's saying it isn't proof of millions of others willing to do the same. he's also stating facts. most were there to support trump and got caught up in the riot, as humans tend to do. there were many that were legit there to overturn the results and shout about hanging the VP. but not the majority. 

    that being said, getting caught up in the riot doesn't excuse it. anyone that was caught doing anything like that should be prosecuted, even if they didn't intend on doing that that day. 
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
    No doubt some had that intent. But with 2500 people entering the building, and only a few dozen being Oak Keepers or Proud Boys and face gun or conspiracy charges. Why are most just facing trespassing or vandalism charges if that wasn't what most were there to do? Thats a serious question. After a yea long investigation, over 700 arrests, only very few face serious charges. I'm supposed to believe we have all this knowledge of everyone's intent, but we're just letting them off light?
    I'm not downplaying it or defending these people. They should have been arrested. I just don't think the average Joe who showed up believed they were going to overthrow the government that day. And based on the arrests and charges, the DOJ seems to agree with me. So they rushed the police, broke in, scared everyone off and made a mess instead. 
    :D:D:D:D


    just a few average joes who got caught up in a riot!
    As humans tend to do. 
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 43,575
    edited September 19
    Yeah, sorry guys. You don't just get "caught up in a riot" at the US Capitol building, behind police barricades,  at the exact date and time of the certifying of the election. They all knew why they were marching there and they all knew what they were trying to do. Their leader told them to fight like hell for him. They were following orders. They're all on videotape admitting to it. They're not "average joes." They're all a bunch of lunatics. 


    Post edited by The Juggler on
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,221
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
    No doubt some had that intent. But with 2500 people entering the building, and only a few dozen being Oak Keepers or Proud Boys and face gun or conspiracy charges. Why are most just facing trespassing or vandalism charges if that wasn't what most were there to do? Thats a serious question. After a yea long investigation, over 700 arrests, only very few face serious charges. I'm supposed to believe we have all this knowledge of everyone's intent, but we're just letting them off light?
    I'm not downplaying it or defending these people. They should have been arrested. I just don't think the average Joe who showed up believed they were going to overthrow the government that day. And based on the arrests and charges, the DOJ seems to agree with me. So they rushed the police, broke in, scared everyone off and made a mess instead. 
    :D:D:D:D


    just a few average joes who got caught up in a riot!
    don't be disingenuous. obviously these morons are the ones who were there for a purpose. that's not what we're saying and you know it. 
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited September 19
    Yeah, sorry guys. You don't just get "caught up in a riot" at the US Capitol building, behind police barricades,  at the exact date and time of the certifying of the election. They all knew why they were marching there and they all knew what they were trying to do. Their leader told them to fight like hell for him. They were following orders. They're all on videotape admitting to it. They're not "average joes." They're all a bunch of lunatics. 


    If Biden loses and I do the same thing as the “average joe” I’d bet every penny I have that trespassing wouldn’t be the charge I would face 

    not in trumps DOJ, so let’s be honest here. These minor charges are ridiculously low 

    Nor is it a deterrent to future occurrences which is also the point of harsh sentencing or so says the law and order crowd.  Trump will pardon them all anyway so trespassing or not, it’s actually potentially no crime 

    These low charges are driving the narrative it was a minor disturbance as much as the right wing denialism.  
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,221
    Yeah, sorry guys. You don't just get "caught up in a riot" at the US Capitol building, behind police barricades,  at the exact date and time of the certifying of the election. They all knew why they were marching there and they all knew what they were trying to do. Their leader told them to fight like hell for him. They were following orders. They're all on videotape admitting to it. They're not "average joes." They're all a bunch of lunatics. 



    2,000 or entered the capitol. out of an estimated rally attendance of 80,000. 

    all of whom were doing what again?
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,221
    the insurrection was one of the biggest stains in american history. wanting people to speak facts instead of hyperbole isn't downplaying. 
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited September 19
    Yeah, sorry guys. You don't just get "caught up in a riot" at the US Capitol building, behind police barricades,  at the exact date and time of the certifying of the election. They all knew why they were marching there and they all knew what they were trying to do. Their leader told them to fight like hell for him. They were following orders. They're all on videotape admitting to it. They're not "average joes." They're all a bunch of lunatics. 



    2,000 or entered the capitol. out of an estimated rally attendance of 80,000. 

    all of whom were doing what again?
    If 2000 entered and 150 ish cops were injured 1 out of 14 statistically is guilty of felony assault. Rounding up if 10% were actively assaulting police everyone there was aware. They didn’t stop it, leave, or switch sides 

    Of those inside the building there is no way around the fact they were  violent 

    I have no issue with the people who stayed outside. I have a major issue with charges of minor stuff like trespassing for anyone inside though 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,179
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 

    A gun need not be fired for a person to die a violent death. Two trump supporters died that day, as a direct result of crimes committed against America. Had trump decided to continue his revolution, it would have been a far bloodier day, based simply on what his supporters told us.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 43,575
    edited September 19
    Yeah, sorry guys. You don't just get "caught up in a riot" at the US Capitol building, behind police barricades,  at the exact date and time of the certifying of the election. They all knew why they were marching there and they all knew what they were trying to do. Their leader told them to fight like hell for him. They were following orders. They're all on videotape admitting to it. They're not "average joes." They're all a bunch of lunatics. 



    2,000 or entered the capitol. out of an estimated rally attendance of 80,000. 

    all of whom were doing what again?
    Whoa....80,000?!?! There were like 10,000 people at that speech. lol

    I have no qualms with the disillusioned wackjobs that chose to spend their time at a Trump rally and did NOT attempt to block the certification of the election. 


    chinese-happy.jpg
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,179
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    Did trump supporters not take military assault weapons to the capitol on Jan 6? Are you seriously going to argue they were not ready to use those weapons if trump gave the order to assume control of the Capitol and congress? did they bring assault weapons just to show off?

    no one needs to pull a trigger in order to use the threat of violence to change the leadership of a country.
  • C'mon guys, it was a tourist visit and tour of the Capitol complex. And if there was a riot, it was Antiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiifa's fault. Much like the dispute over document storage.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,179
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    .I was expecting more MAGA fallout from the speech.  I haven't looked to closely at any right wing media today, but it seems like the response to being called out is pretty tame

    No war has started? Strange...
    I was told there would be massive riots & bloodshed in his name… 




    Revisiting the national security/democracy issue, why are moderates assuming the uprising would be violent like Jan 6?

    The "war" has been full speed ahead since 2021 and has been nonviolent. 


    J6 failed because the laws and key officials were not in place to overturn an election in 2020, as the laws and 60 court rulings stepping in the way

    However, The GOP has been hard at work since, changing state voting and election administration laws. And "Trump judges" look to be emboldened now. This Cannon ruling getting in the way of a criminal investigation is chilling. As is the upcoming scotus case regarding the independent legislature theory.

    Will the left sit by peacefully if scotus were to "pull a Cannon" regarding an election dispute?
    You assumed violence, so you tell me...

    You said the following in the thread about the DOJ going after trump and specifically cited January 6th when doing so:  

    "We like to say no one is above the law but there is no real way to pull it off without pissing off millions of crazies with guns, who would happily pull the trigger over this, and Jan six is proof of that." 

    If anything, I think the fallout from January 6th is going to DETER many people from violence. Those rubes have been abandoned by their dear leader... a lot of people who may have been willing to step up before that, will have second thoughts after the way that shook out. 

    I have no doubt the elections are going to be ugly, and I'm very concerned about how that will go down. If Republicans win in November. I think we're f'ed.

    I feel very strongly that there WILL be violence by some crazies out there, but as far as 'assuming a violent uprising', I would defer to the people handwringing over "millions of crazies with guns who would happily pull the trigger over this" to answer your question. 
    How is Jan 6 proof of that? Not 1 shot was fired by a rioter from what I heard. So I don't see the jump to saying that's proof that millions are just trigger happy crazies when not one of them pulled a trigger that day.
    I think Jan 6 was an illegal riot, that they had no right to breach the capitol like that. But there just isn't any evidence to say they are all gun crazy trigger happy people. I also believe they weren't trying to over take anything, it was too poorly organized and executed. They just wanted to stir up thing and create chaos, which they did. You can't take over a government by acting crazy inside a capitol. 
    It’s about entitlement.  They thought they would be allowed to do that first of all, and secondly they thought that was their right to do that.

    guns or not that’s a disturbing mentality. Armed standoffs with the government based on no justification has been going on for years. There are many examples of that or blowing up federal buildings, trying to kidnap a sitting governor.The people doing all that have millions of supporters. Storming the capital are those same like minded types of people.

    all the false comparisons to the chaos of the BLM protests which did get out of hand in many instances, not one of those attempted to overthrow the government. Preventing a certification of a vote is a coup attempt. “ a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” it wasn’t successful but that doesn’t change what it was 

    not all riots are the same. Rioting on Main Street and rioting inside congress are vastly different as were the goals 

    jan 6 rioters would do it all again happily. Next time they will just be angrier if they lose again 

    violence is inevitable when a bunch of Karen’s don’t get their way 
    The quote I responded to said that Jan 6 is proof that millions are willing to take up arms and happily pull the trigger.
    I still stand by my comment. Nothing I have seen supports that.
    Two separate people in response linked an article that talked about 11 people stock piling guns in a nearby hotel. My response to that is so 11 people is proof that millions are happy to pull the trigger? I don't see the link to that. You can find 11 people pretty much willing to do anything. That doesn't mean millions are going to follow them. 
    BLM riots and Jan 6 riots are different in that rioting down the street is one thing and storming the capitol is another. But where I think the common ground is was the mob mentality that is found in almost all riots. The vast majority of the people didn't look prepared for anything. Just following the mob rule. Probably didn't think they'd face any consequence, just wanted to be crazy. Its my opinion that the vast majority had no belief that a successful takeover was even possible. Just because you chase them off for a few hours doesn't make them the new leaders of the country, they had to know that. Therefore not their intent, but rather just to cause chaos and put their feet up on Nancy's desk.
    And even if I'm wrong, the number willing and wanting to do that is certainly not in the millions. 


    You and I are in agreement in regards to the number of people 'willing to pull the trigger' for tfg. After the way he abandoned the rubes that stormed the capitol, I think fewer people are willing to throw their lives away for him. 


    RE: January 6th, mob mentality or not, those people went from the ellipse to the Capitol to stop congress from certifying the vote and resorted to violence to accomplish their goal. This isn't up for debate. 

    The lack of organization or poor execution doesn't mean it isn't what it was. 
    No doubt some had that intent. But with 2500 people entering the building, and only a few dozen being Oak Keepers or Proud Boys and face gun or conspiracy charges. Why are most just facing trespassing or vandalism charges if that wasn't what most were there to do? Thats a serious question. After a yea long investigation, over 700 arrests, only very few face serious charges. I'm supposed to believe we have all this knowledge of everyone's intent, but we're just letting them off light?
    I'm not downplaying it or defending these people. They should have been arrested. I just don't think the average Joe who showed up believed they were going to overthrow the government that day. And based on the arrests and charges, the DOJ seems to agree with me. So they rushed the police, broke in, scared everyone off and made a mess instead. 
    Your comment defies logic. I’ll use trumps logic against you to prove you wrong - if there were so few guns in DC on Jan 6, then why did trump insist on removing the metal detectors? He was concerned about how bad a small crowd would look, if there were only 20 gun toters, then why worry? Because he knew there were far far more than 20 guns in town that day.


    It’s been widely reported the DOJ is unable to keep up with the 850 J6 arrests, they are just not equipped to handle wisepread crime like this. Prosecuting 850 cases is a lot of work, despite what your comment tries to communicate.

    it was also widely reported that DC was flooded with gun toting trump supporters for the two days leading up to the election certification and the local police have specifically told the public they were not looking to arrest gun carry violations that week. So we have no idea what the full picture was.



    To focus strictly on the violent aspect of the attempted coup is missing the point. The riot was the last straw. He tried sixty court cases and lost. He tried to intimidate poll workers. He tried fraudulent electors. He tried intimidating secretaries of state. When all else failed, he sent his followers to the Capitol, angered them up, with the knowledge they were armed. How many armed rioters does to take to cause a bloodbath? One? Zero? Does it matter at all that as few as 20 may have been armed? How many took their guns to DC but got cold feet and left their guns in the car/hotel? 

    The fact that tens of millions of republicans STILL defend him and vote R is all we need to know. America could very well be over when so many want their leader appointed and not elected. I WIN OR ITS RIGGED IS NOT FREEDOM.

    And who says the effort to take over the country is over? Who says a revolution needs to be violent?

     Changing laws to prevent the fair counting of votes and fair access to polls is every bit as dangerous as is a white man with a gun.

    You are familiar with how Hitler took control, and the similarity of his ascent to Jan 6? Or were you not around when we discussed the Beer Hall Putsch here?


    ….
    “You aren’t going to do anybody any good rotting in jail,” Oath Keepers leader Stewart Rhodes told his followers in a recorded online meeting in November 2020, according to court documents. “Pepper spray is legal. Tasers are legal, and stun guns are legal. And it doesn’t hurt to have a lead pipe.” An armed group would stay in Virginia “awaiting the President’s orders ... then D.C. gun laws won’t matter,”
Sign In or Register to comment.