#46 President Joe Biden

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  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 14,760
    Let's not forget the COVID connection to this debt forgiveness. Whether it was the main reason or not they are still stating that this is tied in with COVID relief. 
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    Another thing to consider. 

    Farm subsidies.  A lot of people say it’s necessary to protect farmers and food supply for national security reasons.

    we currently have to import a lot of computer engineers and such from other countries as America isn’t producing enough.  Also imagine the person with $150k in debt with a security clearance? Or at a minimum someone with an even somewhat sensitive job 

    Education is a national security concern both in it being affordable and the number of people going among the population. We simply don’t have enough people in college and certainly not enough in critical areas 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 15,667
    Let's not forget the COVID connection to this debt forgiveness. Whether it was the main reason or not they are still stating that this is tied in with COVID relief. 
    Now that is some BS.  But it makes sense as we gave a lot of tax payers $ to people for no reason during that.  This at least has a more targeted purpose.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,179
    brianlux said:
    Read Heather's letter when Mickey put's it up.  A terrific summation of a big day in political news and it really puts the forgiveness of student loans into perspective.  I was somewhat against that decision, but reading Heather's letter, I'm good with it.

    Thanks, I did, but I didn’t see a thing that justifies Biden side stepping congress, while the 20k forgiveness does nothing to solve the underlying problem.  

    This will only feed into the Dems are socialist narrative, and a handout right before midterms is puzzling. Young adults do not vote, and yet again a prominent democrat is betting the farm on these non voters.

    The 5% income repayment cap is a good idea, but what is missing is addressing the skyrocketing tuition cost. Putting colleges on the hook for unpaid debt would have been a really good idea.

    But instead, blue collars can now scream they are subsidizing a college graduate bailout, a perfect argument for the class war debates that normally engulf US elections. This could cost the Dems the senate and it puts Ryan in a tough spot.
  • static111static111 Posts: 3,993
    If doing the right thing cost's dems the senate then we are doomed anyway. Might as well get it over with.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • static111static111 Posts: 3,993
    edited August 26
    PS I am a blue collar trade school graduate and I am all for this.  As is anyone I know that had to borrow money for their own education or their kid's.  It really seems like the people complaining the most are the people that started out with more advantages or went through school when it was affordable and could be paid off with a couple of part time jobs.  Most and have never been in this situation with the student loans and trying to better your lot in life.  The amount of people who had their parents pay for their education that I have heard complain about this is nauseating.
    Post edited by static111 on
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • static111static111 Posts: 3,993
    "White House National Economic Council Director Bharat Ramamurti told reporters today that “87% of the dollars…are going to people making under $75,000 a year, and 0 dollars, 0%, are going to anybody making over $125,000 in individual income.” He told them it was “instructive” to compare this plan “to what the Republican tax bill did in 2017. It’s basically the reverse. Fifteen percent of the benefits went to people making under $75,000 a year, and 85% went to people making over $75,000 a year. And if you zoom in even more on that, people making over $250,000 a year got nearly half of the benefits of the GOP tax bill and are getting 0 dollars under our [plan].”" From letter from an American.   

    What is the bad thing here so many seem to be worried about that will make the sky fall?
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,221
    static111 said:
    "White House National Economic Council Director Bharat Ramamurti told reporters today that “87% of the dollars…are going to people making under $75,000 a year, and 0 dollars, 0%, are going to anybody making over $125,000 in individual income.” He told them it was “instructive” to compare this plan “to what the Republican tax bill did in 2017. It’s basically the reverse. Fifteen percent of the benefits went to people making under $75,000 a year, and 85% went to people making over $75,000 a year. And if you zoom in even more on that, people making over $250,000 a year got nearly half of the benefits of the GOP tax bill and are getting 0 dollars under our [plan].”" From letter from an American.   

    What is the bad thing here so many seem to be worried about that will make the sky fall?
    I think the talking points it gives the right to yell and scream that democrats are stealing your money. and it will work. 
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 7,471

    it seems like anything Biden does is going to cost dems in November and hand 2024 to trump. 

    & if Biden does nothing, that will cost dems in November and hand 2024 to trump. 


    Let's just start updating all those hats, shirts & flags to reflect 45/47 now. 
  • static111static111 Posts: 3,993
    static111 said:
    "White House National Economic Council Director Bharat Ramamurti told reporters today that “87% of the dollars…are going to people making under $75,000 a year, and 0 dollars, 0%, are going to anybody making over $125,000 in individual income.” He told them it was “instructive” to compare this plan “to what the Republican tax bill did in 2017. It’s basically the reverse. Fifteen percent of the benefits went to people making under $75,000 a year, and 85% went to people making over $75,000 a year. And if you zoom in even more on that, people making over $250,000 a year got nearly half of the benefits of the GOP tax bill and are getting 0 dollars under our [plan].”" From letter from an American.   

    What is the bad thing here so many seem to be worried about that will make the sky fall?
    I think the talking points it gives the right to yell and scream that democrats are stealing your money. and it will work. 
    Republicans are going to vote for republicans no matter what.  Progressives get something they were promised they would get if they voted for Biden, which should go a long way with cementing progressive support for the mid terms and beyond.  If this turns off moderate dems, they probably didn't belong in the Democrat party to begin with.   I have talked to 0 independents that have student loans or have student loans for their kids that think this is a bad idea.  Let the Rs drown themselves out in their echo chamber. It is going to influence exactly no one.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    static111 said:
    "White House National Economic Council Director Bharat Ramamurti told reporters today that “87% of the dollars…are going to people making under $75,000 a year, and 0 dollars, 0%, are going to anybody making over $125,000 in individual income.” He told them it was “instructive” to compare this plan “to what the Republican tax bill did in 2017. It’s basically the reverse. Fifteen percent of the benefits went to people making under $75,000 a year, and 85% went to people making over $75,000 a year. And if you zoom in even more on that, people making over $250,000 a year got nearly half of the benefits of the GOP tax bill and are getting 0 dollars under our [plan].”" From letter from an American.   

    What is the bad thing here so many seem to be worried about that will make the sky fall?
    It’s simple. 

    Taxing the rich is bad because some day when hypothetically you are rich you will have a big tax bill

    paying off student loans is a much tougher sell to people who didn’t go to college.  It’s not like they will all of a sudden enroll 

    education is a value to some extent some see it as important and some don’t , wealth is an aspiration everyone wants.  There is a correlation between the two so there is a disconnect 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 5,179
    static111 said:
    "White House National Economic Council Director Bharat Ramamurti told reporters today that “87% of the dollars…are going to people making under $75,000 a year, and 0 dollars, 0%, are going to anybody making over $125,000 in individual income.” He told them it was “instructive” to compare this plan “to what the Republican tax bill did in 2017. It’s basically the reverse. Fifteen percent of the benefits went to people making under $75,000 a year, and 85% went to people making over $75,000 a year. And if you zoom in even more on that, people making over $250,000 a year got nearly half of the benefits of the GOP tax bill and are getting 0 dollars under our [plan].”" From letter from an American.   

    What is the bad thing here so many seem to be worried about that will make the sky fall?
    I think the talking points it gives the right to yell and scream that democrats are stealing your money. and it will work. 

    And the 2017 tax bill at least passed congress, while the student debt bailout did not. Does Ramamurti not understand basic politics? Does he understand he is making a class war argument supporting young adults who typically don’t vote? One that usually fails in swing districts? Another feeble grasping at straws argument from the Dems.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,221

    it seems like anything Biden does is going to cost dems in November and hand 2024 to trump. 

    & if Biden does nothing, that will cost dems in November and hand 2024 to trump. 


    Let's just start updating all those hats, shirts & flags to reflect 45/47 now. 
    fear and anger works. that's the republican play book. I liken it to a celebrity scandal. it really doesn't matter if it's true or not. once it 's out there, the public sees it as such, and nearly impossible to refute on a grand scale. 
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • static111static111 Posts: 3,993
    static111 said:
    "White House National Economic Council Director Bharat Ramamurti told reporters today that “87% of the dollars…are going to people making under $75,000 a year, and 0 dollars, 0%, are going to anybody making over $125,000 in individual income.” He told them it was “instructive” to compare this plan “to what the Republican tax bill did in 2017. It’s basically the reverse. Fifteen percent of the benefits went to people making under $75,000 a year, and 85% went to people making over $75,000 a year. And if you zoom in even more on that, people making over $250,000 a year got nearly half of the benefits of the GOP tax bill and are getting 0 dollars under our [plan].”" From letter from an American.   

    What is the bad thing here so many seem to be worried about that will make the sky fall?
    I think the talking points it gives the right to yell and scream that democrats are stealing your money. and it will work. 

    And the 2017 tax bill at least passed congress, while the student debt bailout did not. Does Ramamurti not understand basic politics? Does he understand he is making a class war argument supporting young adults who typically don’t vote? One that usually fails in swing districts? Another feeble grasping at straws argument from the Dems.
    Please go vote republican if you don't like helping people.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    static111 said:
    "White House National Economic Council Director Bharat Ramamurti told reporters today that “87% of the dollars…are going to people making under $75,000 a year, and 0 dollars, 0%, are going to anybody making over $125,000 in individual income.” He told them it was “instructive” to compare this plan “to what the Republican tax bill did in 2017. It’s basically the reverse. Fifteen percent of the benefits went to people making under $75,000 a year, and 85% went to people making over $75,000 a year. And if you zoom in even more on that, people making over $250,000 a year got nearly half of the benefits of the GOP tax bill and are getting 0 dollars under our [plan].”" From letter from an American.   

    What is the bad thing here so many seem to be worried about that will make the sky fall?
    I think the talking points it gives the right to yell and scream that democrats are stealing your money. and it will work. 

    And the 2017 tax bill at least passed congress, while the student debt bailout did not. Does Ramamurti not understand basic politics? Does he understand he is making a class war argument supporting young adults who typically don’t vote? One that usually fails in swing districts? Another feeble grasping at straws argument from the Dems.

    It’s not a young people issue.  If you are both in peak earning years and can’t pay off your loans that’s a problem. You would fully expect a 22 year old to be carrying debt.  This could play very well in the suburbs.  College educated 30-40 somethings who still have loans. That’s the demographic Biden needs 


    While the Federal Reserve tracks all student loan debt, federal and private, over 90% of student loan debt is federal.

    • Federal borrowers 24 years old and younger owe an average of $14,434.
    • Federal debt among 24-and-under borrowers has declined 3.6% since 2017.
    • Federal borrowers aged 25 to 34 owe an average debt of $33,570.
    • Debt among 25- to 34-year-olds has increased 6.1% since 2017.
    • 35- to 49-year-olds owe an average federal debt of $43,208.
    • Debt among 35- to 49-year-olds has increased 17.9% since 2017.
    • Federal borrowers aged 50 to 61 years owe an average $44,031.
    • Debt among 50- to 61-year-olds has increased 25.6% since 2017.

    Debt loads do spike starting in your 30’s, when people go back for a masters for example, change careers, etc.  
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 7,471

    it seems like anything Biden does is going to cost dems in November and hand 2024 to trump. 

    & if Biden does nothing, that will cost dems in November and hand 2024 to trump. 


    Let's just start updating all those hats, shirts & flags to reflect 45/47 now. 
    fear and anger works. that's the republican play book. I liken it to a celebrity scandal. it really doesn't matter if it's true or not. once it 's out there, the public sees it as such, and nearly impossible to refute on a grand scale. 

    Oh, I agree, but fear and anger is on the menu no matter what. If republicans don't have something of substance to use to instill fear and anger in people, they're just going to make something up and the people who want to believe it will believe it. 

    It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for Biden, so he may as well do what he thinks he needs to do & let the chips fall where they may. 

    Regarding this specific issue: I think most people who would resent the loan forgiveness were probably going to vote republican anyway. I don't see this issue pushing swing voters to vote red. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,070

    it seems like anything Biden does is going to cost dems in November and hand 2024 to trump. 

    & if Biden does nothing, that will cost dems in November and hand 2024 to trump. 


    Let's just start updating all those hats, shirts & flags to reflect 45/47 now. 
    fear and anger works. that's the republican play book. I liken it to a celebrity scandal. it really doesn't matter if it's true or not. once it 's out there, the public sees it as such, and nearly impossible to refute on a grand scale. 

    Oh, I agree, but fear and anger is on the menu no matter what. If republicans don't have something of substance to use to instill fear and anger in people, they're just going to make something up and the people who want to believe it will believe it. 

    It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for Biden, so he may as well do what he thinks he needs to do & let the chips fall where they may. 

    Regarding this specific issue: I think most people who would resent the loan forgiveness were probably going to vote republican anyway. I don't see this issue pushing swing voters to vote red. 
    And dem candidates should hammer repub candidates on reciting what their solution is for this particular issue, the large amount of crushing student loan debt on the one hand, and the high cost of higher education in general, on the other. Here's a hint, they don't have a policy solution, idea or concept to communicate on how to solve these issues and they'll hem and haw about taxes and deficits but they should be pressed and pressed hard. There are a number of indies and women in the suburbs who worry about this issue that can be swayed. The repub voter is way too far gone to attract to the dem side.

    The Dem campaign slogan should be, "Doing Nothing Is Not An Option!"
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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 7,579
    mace1229 said:
    Loan forgiveness is a terrible idea.
    One, it does zero to reduce to cost. So it’s pointless.
    But mostly, you agree to take a loan you should be responsible to pay it back. Not pass it off into other taxpayers. It’s not about fairness to those who just paid it off, I don’t care about that. If it was a gift from China then that’d one thing. But you’re “forgiving” it by passing it on to the rest of us.

    The reasons of they’re just drowning in debt and school is so expensive don’t do it for me. How many drowning in student loan debt considered other options like going to a 2 year school first? There are ways to drastically cut the cost back if that is your goal. There are plenty of people drowning in credit card debt too, should we forgive that with tax money? You chose to take out tens of thousands to attend a 4 year school, and most likely partied the first 2 years. That’s great. I wish you the best. Don’t pay off your debt with my taxes though.

    I also think PPP loan forgiveness was a bad idea.
    Two points:
    1 what about people who still owe 60k in loans on a 70k initial loan amount.  After 25 years of paying they have paid back 75k to the government?

    there are a lot of older borrowers who have in fact paid the entire principle back.  A lot of these people happen to be teachers.  If we paid them more (with our tax dollars) maybe they wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with 

    2. Non college educated people get bailed out all the time (as education level generally mirrors income)
    in Texas after the winter storm a couple of years ago the people on variable rate energy plans got bailed out.
    these are the people who saved money for years with their energy rates floating below a long term contract rate.  When prices spiked and they got a $5k heating bill they didn’t have to pay.

    natural disasters.   The homes least able to withstand a disaster are the ones owned generally by people who didn’t go to college. They also don’t have proper insurance.   They get bailed out 

    loan forgiveness is a handout but middle class college educated individuals get less handouts than a lot of other groups.  

    I am subsidising those handouts through my electricity rates and through my tax dollars.  A lot of the pushback on the right is being framed as non college graduates footing the bill.  Well they aren’t, as they don’t pay that many taxes to begin with statistically speaking.

    I’ve paid off 100 percent of my student loans.  I’m not benefiting but I’m happy to help others get a small bit of relief.
    2- This is irrelevant. If we're talking about student loans, that has nothing to do with what other people got during a natural disaster or anything or time. But if we do want to talk about it, it just opens the door for everyone who just paid back their loans to complain too. Which are valid points, why are those who did't pay it off rewarded and those who did get nothing? I'm sure many made sacrifices, put down less on a car or home to pay off loans early, so they just have another form, just not as a student loan. So I'm just talking about in basic terms of just the loan itself to keep it simpler. 

    1- I feel bad with people who have 60k in student loan debt. But I wasn't the one who signed up for it and agreed to pay it. Thats the bottom line and what I can't agree with. You agree to the terms and sign up for it. If its too much, if its going to create a long-lasting burden, then don't do it. There are much cheaper alternatives. You can go to the community college I went to for still only $46 a unit! Get your first 2 years out of the way. You can get your first 2 years of college for about $2200 there. There's actually a trade school shortage because they are just taking out loans and doing the 4 year college without even knowing what they want to do and trying to find yourself. Probably because everyone wants the dorm/college life experience, and now expects everyone else to pay for it too. 
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Loan forgiveness is a terrible idea.
    One, it does zero to reduce to cost. So it’s pointless.
    But mostly, you agree to take a loan you should be responsible to pay it back. Not pass it off into other taxpayers. It’s not about fairness to those who just paid it off, I don’t care about that. If it was a gift from China then that’d one thing. But you’re “forgiving” it by passing it on to the rest of us.

    The reasons of they’re just drowning in debt and school is so expensive don’t do it for me. How many drowning in student loan debt considered other options like going to a 2 year school first? There are ways to drastically cut the cost back if that is your goal. There are plenty of people drowning in credit card debt too, should we forgive that with tax money? You chose to take out tens of thousands to attend a 4 year school, and most likely partied the first 2 years. That’s great. I wish you the best. Don’t pay off your debt with my taxes though.

    I also think PPP loan forgiveness was a bad idea.
    Two points:
    1 what about people who still owe 60k in loans on a 70k initial loan amount.  After 25 years of paying they have paid back 75k to the government?

    there are a lot of older borrowers who have in fact paid the entire principle back.  A lot of these people happen to be teachers.  If we paid them more (with our tax dollars) maybe they wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with 

    2. Non college educated people get bailed out all the time (as education level generally mirrors income)
    in Texas after the winter storm a couple of years ago the people on variable rate energy plans got bailed out.
    these are the people who saved money for years with their energy rates floating below a long term contract rate.  When prices spiked and they got a $5k heating bill they didn’t have to pay.

    natural disasters.   The homes least able to withstand a disaster are the ones owned generally by people who didn’t go to college. They also don’t have proper insurance.   They get bailed out 

    loan forgiveness is a handout but middle class college educated individuals get less handouts than a lot of other groups.  

    I am subsidising those handouts through my electricity rates and through my tax dollars.  A lot of the pushback on the right is being framed as non college graduates footing the bill.  Well they aren’t, as they don’t pay that many taxes to begin with statistically speaking.

    I’ve paid off 100 percent of my student loans.  I’m not benefiting but I’m happy to help others get a small bit of relief.
    2- This is irrelevant. If we're talking about student loans, that has nothing to do with what other people got during a natural disaster or anything or time. But if we do want to talk about it, it just opens the door for everyone who just paid back their loans to complain too. Which are valid points, why are those who did't pay it off rewarded and those who did get nothing? I'm sure many made sacrifices, put down less on a car or home to pay off loans early, so they just have another form, just not as a student loan. So I'm just talking about in basic terms of just the loan itself to keep it simpler. 

    1- I feel bad with people who have 60k in student loan debt. But I wasn't the one who signed up for it and agreed to pay it. Thats the bottom line and what I can't agree with. You agree to the terms and sign up for it. If its too much, if its going to create a long-lasting burden, then don't do it. There are much cheaper alternatives. You can go to the community college I went to for still only $46 a unit! Get your first 2 years out of the way. You can get your first 2 years of college for about $2200 there. There's actually a trade school shortage because they are just taking out loans and doing the 4 year college without even knowing what they want to do and trying to find yourself. Probably because everyone wants the dorm/college life experience, and now expects everyone else to pay for it too. 
    It’s not irrelevant because the entire issue isn’t it’s a handout, it’s a handout some people get and others don’t.
     Everyone gets some form of handout, and everyone thinks the one they get is justified and the one they don’t get isn’t. 

    Tax breaks, subsidies, grants, stimulus checks, government spending in general. 

    All of it benefits one group and sometimes not another.
    look at healthcare.  One of the main roadblocks in national health isn’t free (tax supported) healthcare. It’s people being to worried I’m paying taxes for my healthcare when someone else gets theirs reguardless. People being worried about what other people are getting is a big problem.  Having a lower cost to you is less important than someone else getting an even better deal. What’s best for everyone also isn’t  a factor 

     If the median income is in the ballpark of 40k for a non college graduate they pay at most 3k in actual federal taxes SS and Medicare don’t count. Probably much less.  They aren’t even paying for their share of the defense department budget so I really question the narrative coming from GOP talking points that non college graduates are footing the bill.  Is everyone paying a little? Sure.  It’s not class warfare though.  By in large college graduates are footing the bill 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 38,336
    brianlux said:
    Read Heather's letter when Mickey put's it up.  A terrific summation of a big day in political news and it really puts the forgiveness of student loans into perspective.  I was somewhat against that decision, but reading Heather's letter, I'm good with it.
    The bigger take away for me is the amount of hypocrisy and corruption represented by the repubs and their party. And that almost 8 million more ‘Muricans voted for POOTWH the second time around and he’s still the titular head of that party, if you can call it that. All those hypocritical repubs listed and then some will win re-election. What does that tell you?

    Like Merkin said, it means they prefer fascism over democracy.  It also strongly indicates a propensity for a lot of people in this country to be easily sucked into a cult.  I live in a place where I am surrounded by a lot of that (but thankfully some fairly sane people as well).
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 7,579
    nicknyr15 said:
    I really don’t know enough or can relate to this. I’ve never had student loan debt. At first , it sounded good. But the more I read into it, the more it sounds like a whole lot of nothing. I don’t think this will really do much going forward. I read an article and this paragraph stuck out the most to me :

    Any serious discussion surrounding student debt would ask the fundamental question of how best to reduce tuition price tags, as ours dwarf those of peer nations. But this isn’t a serious discussion. It is a bribe to Biden’s base in anticipation of the midterm elections, and the US taxpayers are the ones footing the bill.

    the first sentence is the obvious problem. The second is more of an attack on Biden , but how true is that about taxpayers footing the bill? Will this really cost us 300 billion? 
    Taking $10K or $20K off of a lower/middle income recent graduate's back is not a whole lot of nothing.

    That coupled with the 5% cap is huge.
    It is a whole lot of nothing to those going to college next year and are paying the same inflated prices.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 38,336
    Another thing to consider. 

    Farm subsidies.  A lot of people say it’s necessary to protect farmers and food supply for national security reasons.

    we currently have to import a lot of computer engineers and such from other countries as America isn’t producing enough.  Also imagine the person with $150k in debt with a security clearance? Or at a minimum someone with an even somewhat sensitive job 

    Education is a national security concern both in it being affordable and the number of people going among the population. We simply don’t have enough people in college and certainly not enough in critical areas 

    I am all for a college education.  After all, I have taken classes at six colleges, worked for three of them, and received degrees from two of them.  But despite my enthusiasm for a good college education, I also believe it is important to recognize that college isn't for everyone and that good trade schools should be a well supported alternative to higher education. 
    Most college graduates end up with jobs that involve sitting behind a computer.  Much of that work is valuable, but the world does not run solely on people sitting in front of computers- at least not yet.   I don't know how widespread this situation is, but where I live it is getting harder and harder to find good, qualified people in the trade industry to do electrical work or plumbing, landscaping, construction, etc.  I would love to see more and better trade schools for those not inclined to wanting to listen to lectures, take tests, and write papers.  All good work is honorable.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    brianlux said:
    Another thing to consider. 

    Farm subsidies.  A lot of people say it’s necessary to protect farmers and food supply for national security reasons.

    we currently have to import a lot of computer engineers and such from other countries as America isn’t producing enough.  Also imagine the person with $150k in debt with a security clearance? Or at a minimum someone with an even somewhat sensitive job 

    Education is a national security concern both in it being affordable and the number of people going among the population. We simply don’t have enough people in college and certainly not enough in critical areas 

    I am all for a college education.  After all, I have taken classes at six colleges, worked for three of them, and received degrees from two of them.  But despite my enthusiasm for a good college education, I also believe it is important to recognize that college isn't for everyone and that good trade schools should be a well supported alternative to higher education. 
    Most college graduates end up with jobs that involve sitting behind a computer.  Much of that work is valuable, but the world does not run solely on people sitting in front of computers- at least not yet.   I don't know how widespread this situation is, but where I live it is getting harder and harder to find good, qualified people in the trade industry to do electrical work or plumbing, landscaping, construction, etc.  I would love to see more and better trade schools for those not inclined to wanting to listen to lectures, take tests, and write papers.  All good work is honorable.
    I fully agree. However cost shouldn’t be the deciding factor.  College enrolment is also plummeting at exactly the time it needs to be going up.  Technical STEM careers are what’s needed to be competitive in the future 

    A say it a lot.  My kids can be plumbers and I will be proud of them. They will have a 4 year degree though it’s not negotiable.  There is absolutely value in any career. Doesn’t mean education isn’t still important.  Education shouldn’t have to be means to an end. The expense makes it one though 

    I think it was Denmark or somewhere and we were talking to some people in Starbucks.  Even the people who choose to serve coffee went to college it seemed 

    my grandma graduated college in the 1940’s. Never had a job in her life.  That wasn’t really the point. 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 7,579
    edited August 26
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Loan forgiveness is a terrible idea.
    One, it does zero to reduce to cost. So it’s pointless.
    But mostly, you agree to take a loan you should be responsible to pay it back. Not pass it off into other taxpayers. It’s not about fairness to those who just paid it off, I don’t care about that. If it was a gift from China then that’d one thing. But you’re “forgiving” it by passing it on to the rest of us.

    The reasons of they’re just drowning in debt and school is so expensive don’t do it for me. How many drowning in student loan debt considered other options like going to a 2 year school first? There are ways to drastically cut the cost back if that is your goal. There are plenty of people drowning in credit card debt too, should we forgive that with tax money? You chose to take out tens of thousands to attend a 4 year school, and most likely partied the first 2 years. That’s great. I wish you the best. Don’t pay off your debt with my taxes though.

    I also think PPP loan forgiveness was a bad idea.
    Two points:
    1 what about people who still owe 60k in loans on a 70k initial loan amount.  After 25 years of paying they have paid back 75k to the government?

    there are a lot of older borrowers who have in fact paid the entire principle back.  A lot of these people happen to be teachers.  If we paid them more (with our tax dollars) maybe they wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with 

    2. Non college educated people get bailed out all the time (as education level generally mirrors income)
    in Texas after the winter storm a couple of years ago the people on variable rate energy plans got bailed out.
    these are the people who saved money for years with their energy rates floating below a long term contract rate.  When prices spiked and they got a $5k heating bill they didn’t have to pay.

    natural disasters.   The homes least able to withstand a disaster are the ones owned generally by people who didn’t go to college. They also don’t have proper insurance.   They get bailed out 

    loan forgiveness is a handout but middle class college educated individuals get less handouts than a lot of other groups.  

    I am subsidising those handouts through my electricity rates and through my tax dollars.  A lot of the pushback on the right is being framed as non college graduates footing the bill.  Well they aren’t, as they don’t pay that many taxes to begin with statistically speaking.

    I’ve paid off 100 percent of my student loans.  I’m not benefiting but I’m happy to help others get a small bit of relief.
    2- This is irrelevant. If we're talking about student loans, that has nothing to do with what other people got during a natural disaster or anything or time. But if we do want to talk about it, it just opens the door for everyone who just paid back their loans to complain too. Which are valid points, why are those who did't pay it off rewarded and those who did get nothing? I'm sure many made sacrifices, put down less on a car or home to pay off loans early, so they just have another form, just not as a student loan. So I'm just talking about in basic terms of just the loan itself to keep it simpler. 

    1- I feel bad with people who have 60k in student loan debt. But I wasn't the one who signed up for it and agreed to pay it. Thats the bottom line and what I can't agree with. You agree to the terms and sign up for it. If its too much, if its going to create a long-lasting burden, then don't do it. There are much cheaper alternatives. You can go to the community college I went to for still only $46 a unit! Get your first 2 years out of the way. You can get your first 2 years of college for about $2200 there. There's actually a trade school shortage because they are just taking out loans and doing the 4 year college without even knowing what they want to do and trying to find yourself. Probably because everyone wants the dorm/college life experience, and now expects everyone else to pay for it too. 
    It’s not irrelevant because the entire issue isn’t it’s a handout, it’s a handout some people get and others don’t.
     Everyone gets some form of handout, and everyone thinks the one they get is justified and the one they don’t get isn’t. 

    Tax breaks, subsidies, grants, stimulus checks, government spending in general. 

    All of it benefits one group and sometimes not another.
    look at healthcare.  One of the main roadblocks in national health isn’t free (tax supported) healthcare. It’s people being to worried I’m paying taxes for my healthcare when someone else gets theirs reguardless. People being worried about what other people are getting is a big problem.  Having a lower cost to you is less important than someone else getting an even better deal. What’s best for everyone also isn’t  a factor 

     If the median income is in the ballpark of 40k for a non college graduate they pay at most 3k in actual federal taxes SS and Medicare don’t count. Probably much less.  They aren’t even paying for their share of the defense department budget so I really question the narrative coming from GOP talking points that non college graduates are footing the bill.  Is everyone paying a little? Sure.  It’s not class warfare though.  By in large college graduates are footing the bill 
    We'll disagree on the first part. None of the other examples I've seen include anyone who signed up and agreed to something, then said its too much. We didn't bail out individuals who got suckered into a bad home loan in 2006 and were part of the record foreclosures in 2008. In terms of borrowing, I don't see this differently. 

    But I agree with the last. Saying non college grads are paying it is a weak argument. Saying everyone is paying it, which includes those who'd didn't go as well as those who paid off their loans, had a full ride scholarship, saved up, worked extra jobs, chose community college first, went to trade school, etc. is more accurate. Non college grads are probably the smaller population of that group, don't know why they'd focus on them. 

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 38,336
    brianlux said:
    Another thing to consider. 

    Farm subsidies.  A lot of people say it’s necessary to protect farmers and food supply for national security reasons.

    we currently have to import a lot of computer engineers and such from other countries as America isn’t producing enough.  Also imagine the person with $150k in debt with a security clearance? Or at a minimum someone with an even somewhat sensitive job 

    Education is a national security concern both in it being affordable and the number of people going among the population. We simply don’t have enough people in college and certainly not enough in critical areas 

    I am all for a college education.  After all, I have taken classes at six colleges, worked for three of them, and received degrees from two of them.  But despite my enthusiasm for a good college education, I also believe it is important to recognize that college isn't for everyone and that good trade schools should be a well supported alternative to higher education. 
    Most college graduates end up with jobs that involve sitting behind a computer.  Much of that work is valuable, but the world does not run solely on people sitting in front of computers- at least not yet.   I don't know how widespread this situation is, but where I live it is getting harder and harder to find good, qualified people in the trade industry to do electrical work or plumbing, landscaping, construction, etc.  I would love to see more and better trade schools for those not inclined to wanting to listen to lectures, take tests, and write papers.  All good work is honorable.
    I fully agree. However cost shouldn’t be the deciding factor.  College enrolment is also plummeting at exactly the time it needs to be going up.  Technical STEM careers are what’s needed to be competitive in the future 

    A say it a lot.  My kids can be plumbers and I will be proud of them. They will have a 4 year degree though.  There is absolutely value in any career. Doesn’t mean education isn’t still important 

    I think it was Denmark or somewhere and we were talking to some people in Starbucks.  Even the people who choose to serve coffee went to college it seemed 

    Yeah, both college and trade school should be affordable.
    Also yes to both not necessarily being exclusive.  My brother is a U.C. Davis graduate and a has also been a farmer for many years.  He is super smart and skilled.  He tried to show me- Mr. College Dude- how to operate a tractor once.  Jiminy Cricket! No way could I coordinate the multi-tasking maneuvers required to do that (also why I am not a drummer, lol!)
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Loan forgiveness is a terrible idea.
    One, it does zero to reduce to cost. So it’s pointless.
    But mostly, you agree to take a loan you should be responsible to pay it back. Not pass it off into other taxpayers. It’s not about fairness to those who just paid it off, I don’t care about that. If it was a gift from China then that’d one thing. But you’re “forgiving” it by passing it on to the rest of us.

    The reasons of they’re just drowning in debt and school is so expensive don’t do it for me. How many drowning in student loan debt considered other options like going to a 2 year school first? There are ways to drastically cut the cost back if that is your goal. There are plenty of people drowning in credit card debt too, should we forgive that with tax money? You chose to take out tens of thousands to attend a 4 year school, and most likely partied the first 2 years. That’s great. I wish you the best. Don’t pay off your debt with my taxes though.

    I also think PPP loan forgiveness was a bad idea.
    Two points:
    1 what about people who still owe 60k in loans on a 70k initial loan amount.  After 25 years of paying they have paid back 75k to the government?

    there are a lot of older borrowers who have in fact paid the entire principle back.  A lot of these people happen to be teachers.  If we paid them more (with our tax dollars) maybe they wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with 

    2. Non college educated people get bailed out all the time (as education level generally mirrors income)
    in Texas after the winter storm a couple of years ago the people on variable rate energy plans got bailed out.
    these are the people who saved money for years with their energy rates floating below a long term contract rate.  When prices spiked and they got a $5k heating bill they didn’t have to pay.

    natural disasters.   The homes least able to withstand a disaster are the ones owned generally by people who didn’t go to college. They also don’t have proper insurance.   They get bailed out 

    loan forgiveness is a handout but middle class college educated individuals get less handouts than a lot of other groups.  

    I am subsidising those handouts through my electricity rates and through my tax dollars.  A lot of the pushback on the right is being framed as non college graduates footing the bill.  Well they aren’t, as they don’t pay that many taxes to begin with statistically speaking.

    I’ve paid off 100 percent of my student loans.  I’m not benefiting but I’m happy to help others get a small bit of relief.
    2- This is irrelevant. If we're talking about student loans, that has nothing to do with what other people got during a natural disaster or anything or time. But if we do want to talk about it, it just opens the door for everyone who just paid back their loans to complain too. Which are valid points, why are those who did't pay it off rewarded and those who did get nothing? I'm sure many made sacrifices, put down less on a car or home to pay off loans early, so they just have another form, just not as a student loan. So I'm just talking about in basic terms of just the loan itself to keep it simpler. 

    1- I feel bad with people who have 60k in student loan debt. But I wasn't the one who signed up for it and agreed to pay it. Thats the bottom line and what I can't agree with. You agree to the terms and sign up for it. If its too much, if its going to create a long-lasting burden, then don't do it. There are much cheaper alternatives. You can go to the community college I went to for still only $46 a unit! Get your first 2 years out of the way. You can get your first 2 years of college for about $2200 there. There's actually a trade school shortage because they are just taking out loans and doing the 4 year college without even knowing what they want to do and trying to find yourself. Probably because everyone wants the dorm/college life experience, and now expects everyone else to pay for it too. 
    It’s not irrelevant because the entire issue isn’t it’s a handout, it’s a handout some people get and others don’t.
     Everyone gets some form of handout, and everyone thinks the one they get is justified and the one they don’t get isn’t. 

    Tax breaks, subsidies, grants, stimulus checks, government spending in general. 

    All of it benefits one group and sometimes not another.
    look at healthcare.  One of the main roadblocks in national health isn’t free (tax supported) healthcare. It’s people being to worried I’m paying taxes for my healthcare when someone else gets theirs reguardless. People being worried about what other people are getting is a big problem.  Having a lower cost to you is less important than someone else getting an even better deal. What’s best for everyone also isn’t  a factor 

     If the median income is in the ballpark of 40k for a non college graduate they pay at most 3k in actual federal taxes SS and Medicare don’t count. Probably much less.  They aren’t even paying for their share of the defense department budget so I really question the narrative coming from GOP talking points that non college graduates are footing the bill.  Is everyone paying a little? Sure.  It’s not class warfare though.  By in large college graduates are footing the bill 
    We'll disagree on the first part. None of the other examples I've seen include anyone who signed up and agreed to something, then said its too much. We didn't bail out individuals who got suckered into a bad home loan in 2006 and were part of the record foreclosures in 2008. In terms of borrowing, I don't see this differently. 

    But I agree with the last. Saying non college grads are paying it is a weak argument. Saying everyone is paying it, which includes those who'd didn't go as well as those who paid off their loans, had a full ride scholarship, saved up, worked extra jobs, chose community college first, went to trade school, etc. is more accurate. Non college grads are probably the smaller population of that group, don't know why they'd focus on them. 

    Some of this reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife when her company went all in on paid maternity leave for both the men and women.

    older women complained the most. They were mad new mothers got a benefit that they didn’t when they had their kids.

    it seemed insane to me.  

    Paying off college loans especially for people who have paid off the principle to me should be a no brainer but it goes back to that maternity policy uproar at my wife’s company.  It’s not fair because I didn’t get it.

    FYI on average the average 34 year old with student debt owes 287% more than the initial loan amount.  Obviously an average is skewed by extreme examples.  What’s true though is loan balances often don’t go down especially with income based repayment.  Spinning in circles with interest is a problem.  With other debt you can declare bankruptcy with federal student loans you can’t always get rid of it there 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,221
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Loan forgiveness is a terrible idea.
    One, it does zero to reduce to cost. So it’s pointless.
    But mostly, you agree to take a loan you should be responsible to pay it back. Not pass it off into other taxpayers. It’s not about fairness to those who just paid it off, I don’t care about that. If it was a gift from China then that’d one thing. But you’re “forgiving” it by passing it on to the rest of us.

    The reasons of they’re just drowning in debt and school is so expensive don’t do it for me. How many drowning in student loan debt considered other options like going to a 2 year school first? There are ways to drastically cut the cost back if that is your goal. There are plenty of people drowning in credit card debt too, should we forgive that with tax money? You chose to take out tens of thousands to attend a 4 year school, and most likely partied the first 2 years. That’s great. I wish you the best. Don’t pay off your debt with my taxes though.

    I also think PPP loan forgiveness was a bad idea.
    Two points:
    1 what about people who still owe 60k in loans on a 70k initial loan amount.  After 25 years of paying they have paid back 75k to the government?

    there are a lot of older borrowers who have in fact paid the entire principle back.  A lot of these people happen to be teachers.  If we paid them more (with our tax dollars) maybe they wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with 

    2. Non college educated people get bailed out all the time (as education level generally mirrors income)
    in Texas after the winter storm a couple of years ago the people on variable rate energy plans got bailed out.
    these are the people who saved money for years with their energy rates floating below a long term contract rate.  When prices spiked and they got a $5k heating bill they didn’t have to pay.

    natural disasters.   The homes least able to withstand a disaster are the ones owned generally by people who didn’t go to college. They also don’t have proper insurance.   They get bailed out 

    loan forgiveness is a handout but middle class college educated individuals get less handouts than a lot of other groups.  

    I am subsidising those handouts through my electricity rates and through my tax dollars.  A lot of the pushback on the right is being framed as non college graduates footing the bill.  Well they aren’t, as they don’t pay that many taxes to begin with statistically speaking.

    I’ve paid off 100 percent of my student loans.  I’m not benefiting but I’m happy to help others get a small bit of relief.
    2- This is irrelevant. If we're talking about student loans, that has nothing to do with what other people got during a natural disaster or anything or time. But if we do want to talk about it, it just opens the door for everyone who just paid back their loans to complain too. Which are valid points, why are those who did't pay it off rewarded and those who did get nothing? I'm sure many made sacrifices, put down less on a car or home to pay off loans early, so they just have another form, just not as a student loan. So I'm just talking about in basic terms of just the loan itself to keep it simpler. 

    1- I feel bad with people who have 60k in student loan debt. But I wasn't the one who signed up for it and agreed to pay it. Thats the bottom line and what I can't agree with. You agree to the terms and sign up for it. If its too much, if its going to create a long-lasting burden, then don't do it. There are much cheaper alternatives. You can go to the community college I went to for still only $46 a unit! Get your first 2 years out of the way. You can get your first 2 years of college for about $2200 there. There's actually a trade school shortage because they are just taking out loans and doing the 4 year college without even knowing what they want to do and trying to find yourself. Probably because everyone wants the dorm/college life experience, and now expects everyone else to pay for it too. 
    It’s not irrelevant because the entire issue isn’t it’s a handout, it’s a handout some people get and others don’t.
     Everyone gets some form of handout, and everyone thinks the one they get is justified and the one they don’t get isn’t. 

    Tax breaks, subsidies, grants, stimulus checks, government spending in general. 

    All of it benefits one group and sometimes not another.
    look at healthcare.  One of the main roadblocks in national health isn’t free (tax supported) healthcare. It’s people being to worried I’m paying taxes for my healthcare when someone else gets theirs reguardless. People being worried about what other people are getting is a big problem.  Having a lower cost to you is less important than someone else getting an even better deal. What’s best for everyone also isn’t  a factor 

     If the median income is in the ballpark of 40k for a non college graduate they pay at most 3k in actual federal taxes SS and Medicare don’t count. Probably much less.  They aren’t even paying for their share of the defense department budget so I really question the narrative coming from GOP talking points that non college graduates are footing the bill.  Is everyone paying a little? Sure.  It’s not class warfare though.  By in large college graduates are footing the bill 
    We'll disagree on the first part. None of the other examples I've seen include anyone who signed up and agreed to something, then said its too much. We didn't bail out individuals who got suckered into a bad home loan in 2006 and were part of the record foreclosures in 2008. In terms of borrowing, I don't see this differently. 

    But I agree with the last. Saying non college grads are paying it is a weak argument. Saying everyone is paying it, which includes those who'd didn't go as well as those who paid off their loans, had a full ride scholarship, saved up, worked extra jobs, chose community college first, went to trade school, etc. is more accurate. Non college grads are probably the smaller population of that group, don't know why they'd focus on them. 

    Some of this reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife when her company went all in on paid maternity leave for both the men and women.

    older women complained the most. They were mad new mothers got a benefit that they didn’t when they had their kids.

    it seemed insane to me.  

    Paying off college loans especially for people who have paid off the principle to me should be a no brainer but it goes back to that maternity policy uproar at my wife’s company.  It’s not fair because I didn’t get paid leave. 

    FYI on average the average 34 year old with student debt owes 287% more than the initial loan amount 
    this always bothers me too. A woman I work with constantly brings up mat leave now being 12 or 18 months and "all I got was SIX!". So? you don't like progress? you don't want your daughter to have it better than you did? will never understand that selfish mentality. 
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 7,471
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Loan forgiveness is a terrible idea.
    One, it does zero to reduce to cost. So it’s pointless.
    But mostly, you agree to take a loan you should be responsible to pay it back. Not pass it off into other taxpayers. It’s not about fairness to those who just paid it off, I don’t care about that. If it was a gift from China then that’d one thing. But you’re “forgiving” it by passing it on to the rest of us.

    The reasons of they’re just drowning in debt and school is so expensive don’t do it for me. How many drowning in student loan debt considered other options like going to a 2 year school first? There are ways to drastically cut the cost back if that is your goal. There are plenty of people drowning in credit card debt too, should we forgive that with tax money? You chose to take out tens of thousands to attend a 4 year school, and most likely partied the first 2 years. That’s great. I wish you the best. Don’t pay off your debt with my taxes though.

    I also think PPP loan forgiveness was a bad idea.
    Two points:
    1 what about people who still owe 60k in loans on a 70k initial loan amount.  After 25 years of paying they have paid back 75k to the government?

    there are a lot of older borrowers who have in fact paid the entire principle back.  A lot of these people happen to be teachers.  If we paid them more (with our tax dollars) maybe they wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with 

    2. Non college educated people get bailed out all the time (as education level generally mirrors income)
    in Texas after the winter storm a couple of years ago the people on variable rate energy plans got bailed out.
    these are the people who saved money for years with their energy rates floating below a long term contract rate.  When prices spiked and they got a $5k heating bill they didn’t have to pay.

    natural disasters.   The homes least able to withstand a disaster are the ones owned generally by people who didn’t go to college. They also don’t have proper insurance.   They get bailed out 

    loan forgiveness is a handout but middle class college educated individuals get less handouts than a lot of other groups.  

    I am subsidising those handouts through my electricity rates and through my tax dollars.  A lot of the pushback on the right is being framed as non college graduates footing the bill.  Well they aren’t, as they don’t pay that many taxes to begin with statistically speaking.

    I’ve paid off 100 percent of my student loans.  I’m not benefiting but I’m happy to help others get a small bit of relief.
    2- This is irrelevant. If we're talking about student loans, that has nothing to do with what other people got during a natural disaster or anything or time. But if we do want to talk about it, it just opens the door for everyone who just paid back their loans to complain too. Which are valid points, why are those who did't pay it off rewarded and those who did get nothing? I'm sure many made sacrifices, put down less on a car or home to pay off loans early, so they just have another form, just not as a student loan. So I'm just talking about in basic terms of just the loan itself to keep it simpler. 

    1- I feel bad with people who have 60k in student loan debt. But I wasn't the one who signed up for it and agreed to pay it. Thats the bottom line and what I can't agree with. You agree to the terms and sign up for it. If its too much, if its going to create a long-lasting burden, then don't do it. There are much cheaper alternatives. You can go to the community college I went to for still only $46 a unit! Get your first 2 years out of the way. You can get your first 2 years of college for about $2200 there. There's actually a trade school shortage because they are just taking out loans and doing the 4 year college without even knowing what they want to do and trying to find yourself. Probably because everyone wants the dorm/college life experience, and now expects everyone else to pay for it too. 
    It’s not irrelevant because the entire issue isn’t it’s a handout, it’s a handout some people get and others don’t.
     Everyone gets some form of handout, and everyone thinks the one they get is justified and the one they don’t get isn’t. 

    Tax breaks, subsidies, grants, stimulus checks, government spending in general. 

    All of it benefits one group and sometimes not another.
    look at healthcare.  One of the main roadblocks in national health isn’t free (tax supported) healthcare. It’s people being to worried I’m paying taxes for my healthcare when someone else gets theirs reguardless. People being worried about what other people are getting is a big problem.  Having a lower cost to you is less important than someone else getting an even better deal. What’s best for everyone also isn’t  a factor 

     If the median income is in the ballpark of 40k for a non college graduate they pay at most 3k in actual federal taxes SS and Medicare don’t count. Probably much less.  They aren’t even paying for their share of the defense department budget so I really question the narrative coming from GOP talking points that non college graduates are footing the bill.  Is everyone paying a little? Sure.  It’s not class warfare though.  By in large college graduates are footing the bill 
    We'll disagree on the first part. None of the other examples I've seen include anyone who signed up and agreed to something, then said its too much. We didn't bail out individuals who got suckered into a bad home loan in 2006 and were part of the record foreclosures in 2008. In terms of borrowing, I don't see this differently. 

    But I agree with the last. Saying non college grads are paying it is a weak argument. Saying everyone is paying it, which includes those who'd didn't go as well as those who paid off their loans, had a full ride scholarship, saved up, worked extra jobs, chose community college first, went to trade school, etc. is more accurate. Non college grads are probably the smaller population of that group, don't know why they'd focus on them. 

    Some of this reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife when her company went all in on paid maternity leave for both the men and women.

    older women complained the most. They were mad new mothers got a benefit that they didn’t when they had their kids.

    it seemed insane to me.  

    Paying off college loans especially for people who have paid off the principle to me should be a no brainer but it goes back to that maternity policy uproar at my wife’s company.  It’s not fair because I didn’t get paid leave. 

    FYI on average the average 34 year old with student debt owes 287% more than the initial loan amount 
    this always bothers me too. A woman I work with constantly brings up mat leave now being 12 or 18 months and "all I got was SIX!". So? you don't like progress? you don't want your daughter to have it better than you did? will never understand that selfish mentality. 

    “Installing better railings at the zoo’s tiger pit would be a slap in the face to people who were killed after falling into the tiger pit.”
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,221
    haha. so true
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 7,579
    edited August 26
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Loan forgiveness is a terrible idea.
    One, it does zero to reduce to cost. So it’s pointless.
    But mostly, you agree to take a loan you should be responsible to pay it back. Not pass it off into other taxpayers. It’s not about fairness to those who just paid it off, I don’t care about that. If it was a gift from China then that’d one thing. But you’re “forgiving” it by passing it on to the rest of us.

    The reasons of they’re just drowning in debt and school is so expensive don’t do it for me. How many drowning in student loan debt considered other options like going to a 2 year school first? There are ways to drastically cut the cost back if that is your goal. There are plenty of people drowning in credit card debt too, should we forgive that with tax money? You chose to take out tens of thousands to attend a 4 year school, and most likely partied the first 2 years. That’s great. I wish you the best. Don’t pay off your debt with my taxes though.

    I also think PPP loan forgiveness was a bad idea.
    Two points:
    1 what about people who still owe 60k in loans on a 70k initial loan amount.  After 25 years of paying they have paid back 75k to the government?

    there are a lot of older borrowers who have in fact paid the entire principle back.  A lot of these people happen to be teachers.  If we paid them more (with our tax dollars) maybe they wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with 

    2. Non college educated people get bailed out all the time (as education level generally mirrors income)
    in Texas after the winter storm a couple of years ago the people on variable rate energy plans got bailed out.
    these are the people who saved money for years with their energy rates floating below a long term contract rate.  When prices spiked and they got a $5k heating bill they didn’t have to pay.

    natural disasters.   The homes least able to withstand a disaster are the ones owned generally by people who didn’t go to college. They also don’t have proper insurance.   They get bailed out 

    loan forgiveness is a handout but middle class college educated individuals get less handouts than a lot of other groups.  

    I am subsidising those handouts through my electricity rates and through my tax dollars.  A lot of the pushback on the right is being framed as non college graduates footing the bill.  Well they aren’t, as they don’t pay that many taxes to begin with statistically speaking.

    I’ve paid off 100 percent of my student loans.  I’m not benefiting but I’m happy to help others get a small bit of relief.
    2- This is irrelevant. If we're talking about student loans, that has nothing to do with what other people got during a natural disaster or anything or time. But if we do want to talk about it, it just opens the door for everyone who just paid back their loans to complain too. Which are valid points, why are those who did't pay it off rewarded and those who did get nothing? I'm sure many made sacrifices, put down less on a car or home to pay off loans early, so they just have another form, just not as a student loan. So I'm just talking about in basic terms of just the loan itself to keep it simpler. 

    1- I feel bad with people who have 60k in student loan debt. But I wasn't the one who signed up for it and agreed to pay it. Thats the bottom line and what I can't agree with. You agree to the terms and sign up for it. If its too much, if its going to create a long-lasting burden, then don't do it. There are much cheaper alternatives. You can go to the community college I went to for still only $46 a unit! Get your first 2 years out of the way. You can get your first 2 years of college for about $2200 there. There's actually a trade school shortage because they are just taking out loans and doing the 4 year college without even knowing what they want to do and trying to find yourself. Probably because everyone wants the dorm/college life experience, and now expects everyone else to pay for it too. 
    It’s not irrelevant because the entire issue isn’t it’s a handout, it’s a handout some people get and others don’t.
     Everyone gets some form of handout, and everyone thinks the one they get is justified and the one they don’t get isn’t. 

    Tax breaks, subsidies, grants, stimulus checks, government spending in general. 

    All of it benefits one group and sometimes not another.
    look at healthcare.  One of the main roadblocks in national health isn’t free (tax supported) healthcare. It’s people being to worried I’m paying taxes for my healthcare when someone else gets theirs reguardless. People being worried about what other people are getting is a big problem.  Having a lower cost to you is less important than someone else getting an even better deal. What’s best for everyone also isn’t  a factor 

     If the median income is in the ballpark of 40k for a non college graduate they pay at most 3k in actual federal taxes SS and Medicare don’t count. Probably much less.  They aren’t even paying for their share of the defense department budget so I really question the narrative coming from GOP talking points that non college graduates are footing the bill.  Is everyone paying a little? Sure.  It’s not class warfare though.  By in large college graduates are footing the bill 
    We'll disagree on the first part. None of the other examples I've seen include anyone who signed up and agreed to something, then said its too much. We didn't bail out individuals who got suckered into a bad home loan in 2006 and were part of the record foreclosures in 2008. In terms of borrowing, I don't see this differently. 

    But I agree with the last. Saying non college grads are paying it is a weak argument. Saying everyone is paying it, which includes those who'd didn't go as well as those who paid off their loans, had a full ride scholarship, saved up, worked extra jobs, chose community college first, went to trade school, etc. is more accurate. Non college grads are probably the smaller population of that group, don't know why they'd focus on them. 

    Some of this reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife when her company went all in on paid maternity leave for both the men and women.

    older women complained the most. They were mad new mothers got a benefit that they didn’t when they had their kids.

    it seemed insane to me.  

    Paying off college loans especially for people who have paid off the principle to me should be a no brainer but it goes back to that maternity policy uproar at my wife’s company.  It’s not fair because I didn’t get it.

    FYI on average the average 34 year old with student debt owes 287% more than the initial loan amount.  Obviously an average is skewed by extreme examples.  What’s true though is loan balances often don’t go down especially with income based repayment.  Spinning in circles with interest is a problem.  With other debt you can declare bankruptcy with federal student loans you can’t always get rid of it there 
    Being upset solely because you didn't get it too does seem insane. But I'm guessing the cost of doing things like that gets passed on to everyone. For example, in order to pay for maternity leave for everyone maybe they increase the cost of benefits. So in effect you're helping pay for a benefit for someone else that wasn't available to you. I'm not saying we shouldn't expand benefits for that reason, but it would be a valid complaint. I'd be upset if I had to take unpaid leave, then a couple years later essentially take a pay cut so others could take a paid leave that was not afforded to me. Not saying don't do it, but being upset that the timing impacts you negatively is understandable. 
    Post edited by mace1229 on
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