Black Lives Matter

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  • Matts3221Matts3221 Posts: 404
    RYME said:
    Why no outrage about this kind of stuff?
    https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/prosecutors-suspect-in-double-slaying-of-teens-asked-about-tall-height-prior-to-shooting/
    Two teams shot and killed the third one escaped injury but,,because they asked a guy 19 year old how tall he was and they would like to be that tall too so they can play basketball.  Went to the corner store to buy some candy and wound up deader than a hammer!  By a 6'3" deranged 19 year old.  Let's focus on the real problems people.
    Worried about flags statues?
    Uncle Ben's rice, Aunt Jemima,?
    For f*** sake!


    There is plenty , also they are not cops that are supposed to uphold the law.
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 1,772
    benjs said:
    RYME said:
    Why no outrage about this kind of stuff?
    https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/prosecutors-suspect-in-double-slaying-of-teens-asked-about-tall-height-prior-to-shooting/
    Two teams shot and killed the third one escaped injury but,,because they asked a guy 19 year old how tall he was and they would like to be that tall too so they can play basketball.  Went to the corner store to buy some candy and wound up deader than a hammer!  By a 6'3" deranged 19 year old.  Let's focus on the real problems people.
    Worried about flags statues?
    Uncle Ben's rice, Aunt Jemima,?
    For f*** sake!

    Individuals are accountable to the law. The law enforcement agents are responsible for enforcing the law equitably, and extending reasonable doubt and harm mitigation efforts to all. That's not happening. The justice system is supposed to give fair representation for all. That's not happening.

    I'm outraged that law enforcement agents, and agents of delivering justice, have so pathetically failed, and that they provide no exemplary role model for those they attempt to keep 'within law and order'. 

    If I focus my outrage on one individual, my scope of impact is highly limited. One legitimate heavy-handed incarceration won't make an oppressed population forget about the throngs of unjust incarcerations prior to it. If I focus my outrage on the system that promotes two sets of standards for two different sets of individuals, my outrage might (and only might) make a difference. 

    Maybe don't tell people what 'real problems' are or what they should care about most. We've all decided for ourselves, just as you have. In any case, I've defended why I feel the 'real problems' being discussed here are actually a root cause and catalyst for these kinds of horrific events as the one you've just brought up. You're welcome to refute them - but to trivialize systemic oppression ignores centuries of revolutions catalyzed by exactly these kinds of injustices. 
    Ok fine Benjs.  Since we're cutting off funding to the wretched police departments, Why don't we redirect those $$$,$$$'s to these urban killing fields?  Where dozens black lives are shot down every day?
    I cannot keep track of all the cities but I know, Milwaukee crime is up 25% over last year, &  Chicago had 104 shootings two weekends ago a couple dozen dead, and I think 68 shootings this past weekend including in the story I mentioned, and seperate instance, a 4 month old girl who was set down in the wrong place at the wrong time,, stray bullet whoops....gone!  Mass murders occur every in these cities every day by the dozens. They arn't all famous riot inducing  because those instances do not advance the narrative.
    Everybody rightfully so knows who George Floyd is.  Yet nobody can name the two boys shot by the 19 year old without looking it up, or the 4-month old girl whose name must not matter?  
    You can virtue signal all you want (do away with Lady Antebellum, Dixie Chicks, Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben's rice a ride at Disney world, tear down all statues of all kinds doesn't matter which side they were on and what party they were actually affiliated with, just erase history, hashtag this and #that, & bumper stickers up wazoo and slap BLM on the NBA basketball courts this summer.  None of that does a damn thing to improve black lives.
    But it does pave the way for anarchy.
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 8,218
    edited June 30
    RYME said:
    benjs said:
    RYME said:
    Why no outrage about this kind of stuff?
    https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/prosecutors-suspect-in-double-slaying-of-teens-asked-about-tall-height-prior-to-shooting/
    Two teams shot and killed the third one escaped injury but,,because they asked a guy 19 year old how tall he was and they would like to be that tall too so they can play basketball.  Went to the corner store to buy some candy and wound up deader than a hammer!  By a 6'3" deranged 19 year old.  Let's focus on the real problems people.
    Worried about flags statues?
    Uncle Ben's rice, Aunt Jemima,?
    For f*** sake!

    Individuals are accountable to the law. The law enforcement agents are responsible for enforcing the law equitably, and extending reasonable doubt and harm mitigation efforts to all. That's not happening. The justice system is supposed to give fair representation for all. That's not happening.

    I'm outraged that law enforcement agents, and agents of delivering justice, have so pathetically failed, and that they provide no exemplary role model for those they attempt to keep 'within law and order'. 

    If I focus my outrage on one individual, my scope of impact is highly limited. One legitimate heavy-handed incarceration won't make an oppressed population forget about the throngs of unjust incarcerations prior to it. If I focus my outrage on the system that promotes two sets of standards for two different sets of individuals, my outrage might (and only might) make a difference. 

    Maybe don't tell people what 'real problems' are or what they should care about most. We've all decided for ourselves, just as you have. In any case, I've defended why I feel the 'real problems' being discussed here are actually a root cause and catalyst for these kinds of horrific events as the one you've just brought up. You're welcome to refute them - but to trivialize systemic oppression ignores centuries of revolutions catalyzed by exactly these kinds of injustices. 
    Ok fine Benjs.  Since we're cutting off funding to the wretched police departments, Why don't we redirect those $$$,$$$'s to these urban killing fields?  Where dozens black lives are shot down every day?
    I cannot keep track of all the cities but I know, Milwaukee crime is up 25% over last year, &  Chicago had 104 shootings two weekends ago a couple dozen dead, and I think 68 shootings this past weekend including in the story I mentioned, and seperate instance, a 4 month old girl who was set down in the wrong place at the wrong time,, stray bullet whoops....gone!  Mass murders occur every in these cities every day by the dozens. They arn't all famous riot inducing  because those instances do not advance the narrative.
    Everybody rightfully so knows who George Floyd is.  Yet nobody can name the two boys shot by the 19 year old without looking it up, or the 4-month old girl whose name must not matter?  
    You can virtue signal all you want (do away with Lady Antebellum, Dixie Chicks, Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben's rice a ride at Disney world, tear down all statues of all kinds doesn't matter which side they were on and what party they were actually affiliated with, just erase history, hashtag this and #that, & bumper stickers up wazoo and slap BLM on the NBA basketball courts this summer.  None of that does a damn thing to improve black lives.
    But it does pave the way for anarchy.
    If you cared to research more than reading one headline and assuming you understand the notion of defunding the police, you'd know that many of the social elements you're discussing are fundamental to the concepts behind defunding the police - and pivoting them to preventative and educational measures that help make it safer for all. 

    I also didn't say anything about band names or rice brands - if you're so disgusted by these signs of decency and respect for righting wrongs in whatever minor ways a company can (albeit later than they ought to have), you're welcome to not partake in their products and services. Most people shrug their shoulders, say "it's about time", and go back to trying to propose justice served equitably and with reasonable attempts to minimize harm. 

    Finally, since all of this 'taking a stand' is so offensive to you - what do you propose I do with my energy in the interest of combatting violence in black neighbourhoods besides the policing, social assistance, housing, and education system reforms that I believe are necessary? You talk like you have the solution and know for certain that the current efforts are misguided. I'm all ears.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

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  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,063
    RYME said:
    benjs said:
    RYME said:
    Why no outrage about this kind of stuff?
    https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/prosecutors-suspect-in-double-slaying-of-teens-asked-about-tall-height-prior-to-shooting/
    Two teams shot and killed the third one escaped injury but,,because they asked a guy 19 year old how tall he was and they would like to be that tall too so they can play basketball.  Went to the corner store to buy some candy and wound up deader than a hammer!  By a 6'3" deranged 19 year old.  Let's focus on the real problems people.
    Worried about flags statues?
    Uncle Ben's rice, Aunt Jemima,?
    For f*** sake!

    Individuals are accountable to the law. The law enforcement agents are responsible for enforcing the law equitably, and extending reasonable doubt and harm mitigation efforts to all. That's not happening. The justice system is supposed to give fair representation for all. That's not happening.

    I'm outraged that law enforcement agents, and agents of delivering justice, have so pathetically failed, and that they provide no exemplary role model for those they attempt to keep 'within law and order'. 

    If I focus my outrage on one individual, my scope of impact is highly limited. One legitimate heavy-handed incarceration won't make an oppressed population forget about the throngs of unjust incarcerations prior to it. If I focus my outrage on the system that promotes two sets of standards for two different sets of individuals, my outrage might (and only might) make a difference. 

    Maybe don't tell people what 'real problems' are or what they should care about most. We've all decided for ourselves, just as you have. In any case, I've defended why I feel the 'real problems' being discussed here are actually a root cause and catalyst for these kinds of horrific events as the one you've just brought up. You're welcome to refute them - but to trivialize systemic oppression ignores centuries of revolutions catalyzed by exactly these kinds of injustices. 
    Ok fine Benjs.  Since we're cutting off funding to the wretched police departments, Why don't we redirect those $$$,$$$'s to these urban killing fields?  Where dozens black lives are shot down every day?
    I cannot keep track of all the cities but I know, Milwaukee crime is up 25% over last year, &  Chicago had 104 shootings two weekends ago a couple dozen dead, and I think 68 shootings this past weekend including in the story I mentioned, and seperate instance, a 4 month old girl who was set down in the wrong place at the wrong time,, stray bullet whoops....gone!  Mass murders occur every in these cities every day by the dozens. They arn't all famous riot inducing  because those instances do not advance the narrative.
    Everybody rightfully so knows who George Floyd is.  Yet nobody can name the two boys shot by the 19 year old without looking it up, or the 4-month old girl whose name must not matter?  
    You can virtue signal all you want (do away with Lady Antebellum, Dixie Chicks, Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben's rice a ride at Disney world, tear down all statues of all kinds doesn't matter which side they were on and what party they were actually affiliated with, just erase history, hashtag this and #that, & bumper stickers up wazoo and slap BLM on the NBA basketball courts this summer.  None of that does a damn thing to improve black lives.
    But it does pave the way for anarchy.
    When people talk about defunding the police, they are saying exactly what you say in your second sentence - redirecting the money to other areas of need, to improve social determinants of health. 

    See? You are in favour of defunding the police after all. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 1,772
    benjs said:
    RYME said:
    benjs said:
    RYME said:
    Why no outrage about this kind of stuff?
    https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/prosecutors-suspect-in-double-slaying-of-teens-asked-about-tall-height-prior-to-shooting/
    Two teams shot and killed the third one escaped injury but,,because they asked a guy 19 year old how tall he was and they would like to be that tall too so they can play basketball.  Went to the corner store to buy some candy and wound up deader than a hammer!  By a 6'3" deranged 19 year old.  Let's focus on the real problems people.
    Worried about flags statues?
    Uncle Ben's rice, Aunt Jemima,?
    For f*** sake!

    Individuals are accountable to the law. The law enforcement agents are responsible for enforcing the law equitably, and extending reasonable doubt and harm mitigation efforts to all. That's not happening. The justice system is supposed to give fair representation for all. That's not happening.

    I'm outraged that law enforcement agents, and agents of delivering justice, have so pathetically failed, and that they provide no exemplary role model for those they attempt to keep 'within law and order'. 

    If I focus my outrage on one individual, my scope of impact is highly limited. One legitimate heavy-handed incarceration won't make an oppressed population forget about the throngs of unjust incarcerations prior to it. If I focus my outrage on the system that promotes two sets of standards for two different sets of individuals, my outrage might (and only might) make a difference. 

    Maybe don't tell people what 'real problems' are or what they should care about most. We've all decided for ourselves, just as you have. In any case, I've defended why I feel the 'real problems' being discussed here are actually a root cause and catalyst for these kinds of horrific events as the one you've just brought up. You're welcome to refute them - but to trivialize systemic oppression ignores centuries of revolutions catalyzed by exactly these kinds of injustices. 
    Ok fine Benjs.  Since we're cutting off funding to the wretched police departments, Why don't we redirect those $$$,$$$'s to these urban killing fields?  Where dozens black lives are shot down every day?
    I cannot keep track of all the cities but I know, Milwaukee crime is up 25% over last year, &  Chicago had 104 shootings two weekends ago a couple dozen dead, and I think 68 shootings this past weekend including in the story I mentioned, and seperate instance, a 4 month old girl who was set down in the wrong place at the wrong time,, stray bullet whoops....gone!  Mass murders occur every in these cities every day by the dozens. They arn't all famous riot inducing  because those instances do not advance the narrative.
    Everybody rightfully so knows who George Floyd is.  Yet nobody can name the two boys shot by the 19 year old without looking it up, or the 4-month old girl whose name must not matter?  
    You can virtue signal all you want (do away with Lady Antebellum, Dixie Chicks, Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben's rice a ride at Disney world, tear down all statues of all kinds doesn't matter which side they were on and what party they were actually affiliated with, just erase history, hashtag this and #that, & bumper stickers up wazoo and slap BLM on the NBA basketball courts this summer.  None of that does a damn thing to improve black lives.
    But it does pave the way for anarchy.
    If you cared to research more than reading one headline and assuming you understand the notion of defunding the police, you'd know that many of the social elements you're discussing are fundamental to the concepts behind defunding the police - and pivoting them to preventative and educational measures that help make it safer for all. 

    I also didn't say anything about band names or rice brands - if you're so disgusted by these signs of decency and respect for righting wrongs in whatever minor ways a company can (albeit later than they ought to have), you're welcome to not partake in their products and services. Most people shrug their shoulders, say "it's about time", and go back to trying to propose justice served equitably and with reasonable attempts to minimize harm. 

    Finally, since all of this 'taking a stand' is so offensive to you - what do you propose I do with my energy in the interest of combatting violence in black neighbourhoods besides the policing, social assistance, housing, and education system reforms that I believe are necessary? You talk like you have the solution and know for certain that the current efforts are misguided. I'm all ears.
    I would start by getting rid of the Democratic Mayors Alderman's and City councils who preside over all these dysfunctional cities and violent neighborhoods for the last 30 to 100 plus years.

  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,459
    I wish I could remember the BLM activist guy's name on the morning C-Span call in show I was listening to a few weeks ago. A caller gave him the usual "Why don't you go to Chicago and do something?!" The guy's response was perfect -- paraphrased here:  "Number one: Why does everyone keep sending me to Chicago like that's the only city where black people live? Number two: You have no idea where I've been doing and what I've been doing. Community work is going on everywhere in America but we have such limited resources we can't make the difference we need without full public support. You act like we're not do anything. Why don't YOU go to Chicago?"  
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,095
    A question  to ponder:  Is there a point at which you believe Black Lives Matters  protests are inappropriate?  
    Frequently?  Sometimes? Never? 

    Here's what happened during California Governor Newsom's COVID-19 update today (much of which I was able to stream on my lap earlier today):

    "BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS

    During the press conference, nearby Black Lives Matter protesters shouted out and called on the governor to redistribute resources. The protesters also ran a siren at several points during the press conference and spoke through a bullhorn over the governor. They yelled accusations, including that Newsom doesn't care about the homeless."

    https://laist.com/latest/post/20200630/gov-newsom-coronavirus-california-updates-covid-19


    I call bullshit.  I'm not naive.  I know the governor is not a saint.  Like all of us, he has his flaws.  But I've listened to him and read enough to know he has gone to bat for homeless folks repeatedly.   But, OK, let's say he could do better.  Right?  Fine.  So tell, me, how is running a siren and screaming incomprehensible rants over a bull horn during the governors update going to help homeless people, or win anyone over to the BLM cause? 

    Are situations like that just mentioned, or the short lived social experiment that rapidly went clusterfuck called CHAZ (or CHOP)-- are these actions going to create positive change?  You would have a hard time convincing me.  Radical acts that create positive change are righteous.  But to succeed, radical acts need competent leadership, strength of organization, clear goals, hard work, and possibly most important, creativity.  This used to happen.  The Civil Rights Movement made great strides.  With The Black Power Movement, black Americans took charge and worked to increase black pride and reforming strong family bonds in African American families.  (The break down in the African American family is hurting the plight of blacks in America in big ways.  There is a lot of literature about that, the best of which is written by African American thinkers.)

    Today, we have well meaning liberal white Americans who feel guilty, often refer to themselves as "racist", and have a strong desire to be saviors of the black people in America. 

    On the other en of the spectrum, there are black and white people who believe burning shit and disrupt public addresses is the way to go, but they lack leadership, organization, and specific goals.  Neither extreme is helping.  The reality is, black Americans will not find themselves in a better position by being "saved" by whites or by blacks creating disturbances without a well thought out plan or goal.    What is needed is strong leadership, goals, a clearly thought out plan, and both courage and love.  I'm not seeing much of that happening.


     




    "[This is] not science as we know it, but another kind.  I've been looking for a solution which goes back to Egypt, and to the whole universe.  I think musicians are on a superior level, but unlike scientists, they haven't been accepted for their abilities."
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  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 1,772
    brianlux said:
    A question  to ponder:  Is there a point at which you believe Black Lives Matters  protests are inappropriate?  
    Frequently?  Sometimes? Never? 

    Here's what happened during California Governor Newsom's COVID-19 update today (much of which I was able to stream on my lap earlier today):

    "BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS

    During the press conference, nearby Black Lives Matter protesters shouted out and called on the governor to redistribute resources. The protesters also ran a siren at several points during the press conference and spoke through a bullhorn over the governor. They yelled accusations, including that Newsom doesn't care about the homeless."

    https://laist.com/latest/post/20200630/gov-newsom-coronavirus-california-updates-covid-19


    I call bullshit.  I'm not naive.  I know the governor is not a saint.  Like all of us, he has his flaws.  But I've listened to him and read enough to know he has gone to bat for homeless folks repeatedly.   But, OK, let's say he could do better.  Right?  Fine.  So tell, me, how is running a siren and screaming incomprehensible rants over a bull horn during the governors update going to help homeless people, or win anyone over to the BLM cause? 

    Are situations like that just mentioned, or the short lived social experiment that rapidly went clusterfuck called CHAZ (or CHOP)-- are these actions going to create positive change?  You would have a hard time convincing me.  Radical acts that create positive change are righteous.  But to succeed, radical acts need competent leadership, strength of organization, clear goals, hard work, and possibly most important, creativity.  This used to happen.  The Civil Rights Movement made great strides.  With The Black Power Movement, black Americans took charge and worked to increase black pride and reforming strong family bonds in African American families.  (The break down in the African American family is hurting the plight of blacks in America in big ways.  There is a lot of literature about that, the best of which is written by African American thinkers.)

    Today, we have well meaning liberal white Americans who feel guilty, often refer to themselves as "racist", and have a strong desire to be saviors of the black people in America. 

    On the other en of the spectrum, there are black and white people who believe burning shit and disrupt public addresses is the way to go, but they lack leadership, organization, and specific goals.  Neither extreme is helping.  The reality is, black Americans will not find themselves in a better position by being "saved" by whites or by blacks creating disturbances without a well thought out plan or goal.    What is needed is strong leadership, goals, a clearly thought out plan, and both courage and love.  I'm not seeing much of that happening.


     




    *Inappropriate sometimes would be my answer to your question to ponder*
    Very well said brianlux.  It might be in your interest to write editorials from time to time for a magazine, newspaper, or blog.  You're You write very well-thought-out pieces.
    You deserve a cup of that strong black coffee you like.  I hope the phrase strong black coffee doesn't get banned.
    And I will respond it to the guy above you,
    What Dreams, of course Chicago is not the only city where violence goes on.  I just live in an area where I get a lot of Chicago news I can't keep track of all cities.
     But new news this morning, WGN RADIO Chicago, the reporter said at the bottom of the NewsHour
    This morning, a three year old girl fights for her life after being struck by a bullet in the chest last night on Chicago's South Side, police are searching for the shooter but so far no arrests.  Round and round we go it's so sad
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 5,500
    brianlux said:
    A question  to ponder:  Is there a point at which you believe Black Lives Matters  protests are inappropriate?  
    Frequently?  Sometimes? Never? 

    Here's what happened during California Governor Newsom's COVID-19 update today (much of which I was able to stream on my lap earlier today):

    "BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS

    During the press conference, nearby Black Lives Matter protesters shouted out and called on the governor to redistribute resources. The protesters also ran a siren at several points during the press conference and spoke through a bullhorn over the governor. They yelled accusations, including that Newsom doesn't care about the homeless."

    https://laist.com/latest/post/20200630/gov-newsom-coronavirus-california-updates-covid-19


    I call bullshit.  I'm not naive.  I know the governor is not a saint.  Like all of us, he has his flaws.  But I've listened to him and read enough to know he has gone to bat for homeless folks repeatedly.   But, OK, let's say he could do better.  Right?  Fine.  So tell, me, how is running a siren and screaming incomprehensible rants over a bull horn during the governors update going to help homeless people, or win anyone over to the BLM cause? 

    Are situations like that just mentioned, or the short lived social experiment that rapidly went clusterfuck called CHAZ (or CHOP)-- are these actions going to create positive change?  You would have a hard time convincing me.  Radical acts that create positive change are righteous.  But to succeed, radical acts need competent leadership, strength of organization, clear goals, hard work, and possibly most important, creativity.  This used to happen.  The Civil Rights Movement made great strides.  With The Black Power Movement, black Americans took charge and worked to increase black pride and reforming strong family bonds in African American families.  (The break down in the African American family is hurting the plight of blacks in America in big ways.  There is a lot of literature about that, the best of which is written by African American thinkers.)

    Today, we have well meaning liberal white Americans who feel guilty, often refer to themselves as "racist", and have a strong desire to be saviors of the black people in America. 

    On the other en of the spectrum, there are black and white people who believe burning shit and disrupt public addresses is the way to go, but they lack leadership, organization, and specific goals.  Neither extreme is helping.  The reality is, black Americans will not find themselves in a better position by being "saved" by whites or by blacks creating disturbances without a well thought out plan or goal.    What is needed is strong leadership, goals, a clearly thought out plan, and both courage and love.  I'm not seeing much of that happening.


     




    Great post Brian, I fully agree!
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 13,303
    edited July 1
    brianlux said:
    I call bullshit.  I'm not naive.  I know the governor is not a saint.  Like all of us, he has his flaws.  But I've listened to him and read enough to know he has gone to bat for homeless folks repeatedly.   But, OK, let's say he could do better.  Right?  Fine.  So tell, me, how is running a siren and screaming incomprehensible rants over a bull horn during the governors update going to help homeless people, or win anyone over to the BLM cause? 

    Are situations like that just mentioned, or the short lived social experiment that rapidly went clusterfuck called CHAZ (or CHOP)-- are these actions going to create positive change?  You would have a hard time convincing me.  Radical acts that create positive change are righteous.  But to succeed, radical acts need competent leadership, strength of organization, clear goals, hard work, and possibly most important, creativity.  This used to happen.  The Civil Rights Movement made great strides.  With The Black Power Movement, black Americans took charge and worked to increase black pride and reforming strong family bonds in African American families.  (The break down in the African American family is hurting the plight of blacks in America in big ways.  There is a lot of literature about that, the best of which is written by African American thinkers.)

    Today, we have well meaning liberal white Americans who feel guilty, often refer to themselves as "racist", and have a strong desire to be saviors of the black people in America. 

    On the other en of the spectrum, there are black and white people who believe burning shit and disrupt public addresses is the way to go, but they lack leadership, organization, and specific goals.  Neither extreme is helping.  The reality is, black Americans will not find themselves in a better position by being "saved" by whites or by blacks creating disturbances without a well thought out plan or goal.    What is needed is strong leadership, goals, a clearly thought out plan, and both courage and love.  I'm not seeing much of that happening. 

    To comment on the three things I've bolded....

    1. Yep, that sort of crap turns normal people away from the cause. 

    2. Happy to see you've changed your CHOP stance. You were one of the optimistic ones at first. You give people an inch, and they want more. That's why despite getting their little CHOP area for weeks, they surrounded the mayor's house two days ago because she hasn't given them EVERYTHING they wanted. The statue stuff is similar. They start with the confederate statues, and before long, they're onto Washington, Grant, and Roosevelt statues. 

    3. White liberals have been using and manipulating the black community for almost 100 years. That's how, despite the fact that the democrats started a war to preserve slavery and then implemented horrible Jim Crow laws, they have the black vote. This was one of the key stances of Malcom X: that white liberals totally take advantage of the black community. In fairness, there are some well-meaning ones, of course. But they're out on the streets or online. The leadership of the democratic party are another story. When Nancy Pelosi puts on traditional African garb and takes a knee in the congress in honor of George Floyd, she's really saying, "Vote for me and the democrats."


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  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 5,022
    PJPOWER said:
    brianlux said:
    A question  to ponder:  Is there a point at which you believe Black Lives Matters  protests are inappropriate?  
    Frequently?  Sometimes? Never? 

    Here's what happened during California Governor Newsom's COVID-19 update today (much of which I was able to stream on my lap earlier today):

    "BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS

    During the press conference, nearby Black Lives Matter protesters shouted out and called on the governor to redistribute resources. The protesters also ran a siren at several points during the press conference and spoke through a bullhorn over the governor. They yelled accusations, including that Newsom doesn't care about the homeless."

    https://laist.com/latest/post/20200630/gov-newsom-coronavirus-california-updates-covid-19


    I call bullshit.  I'm not naive.  I know the governor is not a saint.  Like all of us, he has his flaws.  But I've listened to him and read enough to know he has gone to bat for homeless folks repeatedly.   But, OK, let's say he could do better.  Right?  Fine.  So tell, me, how is running a siren and screaming incomprehensible rants over a bull horn during the governors update going to help homeless people, or win anyone over to the BLM cause? 

    Are situations like that just mentioned, or the short lived social experiment that rapidly went clusterfuck called CHAZ (or CHOP)-- are these actions going to create positive change?  You would have a hard time convincing me.  Radical acts that create positive change are righteous.  But to succeed, radical acts need competent leadership, strength of organization, clear goals, hard work, and possibly most important, creativity.  This used to happen.  The Civil Rights Movement made great strides.  With The Black Power Movement, black Americans took charge and worked to increase black pride and reforming strong family bonds in African American families.  (The break down in the African American family is hurting the plight of blacks in America in big ways.  There is a lot of literature about that, the best of which is written by African American thinkers.)

    Today, we have well meaning liberal white Americans who feel guilty, often refer to themselves as "racist", and have a strong desire to be saviors of the black people in America. 

    On the other en of the spectrum, there are black and white people who believe burning shit and disrupt public addresses is the way to go, but they lack leadership, organization, and specific goals.  Neither extreme is helping.  The reality is, black Americans will not find themselves in a better position by being "saved" by whites or by blacks creating disturbances without a well thought out plan or goal.    What is needed is strong leadership, goals, a clearly thought out plan, and both courage and love.  I'm not seeing much of that happening.


     




    Great post Brian, I fully agree!
    +1

  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 2,422
    edited July 1
    I was trying to quote Ledbetterman10's post and highlight "White liberals have been using and manipulating the black community for almost 100 years. That's how, despite the fact that the democrats started a war to preserve slavery and then implemented horrible Jim Crow laws, they have the black vote."  For some reason it would not let me post with the quote.

    I can't take it seriously when it equates today's white liberals to that Democratic party. We know it wasn't "liberals" that tried to preserve slavery and segregation.

    I understand why "white liberal" is a negative term; some of it is deserved (and I am one).  But there's an intellectually dishonest line of discussion that would suggest there's a lineage from the Democrats that fought against Lincoln to Derek Chauvin (a well-known "white liberal").  And it's bullshit.  Blacks vote with the Democrats because the racists tend to be on the right.  Have the Democrats taken it for granted and even exploited it?  Yes.  But today's Democrats are not the segregators.  Today's Republicans are much closer to that.

    Post edited by OnWis97 on
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  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 13,303
    OnWis97 said:
    I was trying to quote Ledbetterman10's post and highlight "White liberals have been using and manipulating the black community for almost 100 years. That's how, despite the fact that the democrats started a war to preserve slavery and then implemented horrible Jim Crow laws, they have the black vote."  For some reason it would not let me post with the quote.

    I can't take it seriously when it equates today's white liberals to that Democratic party. We know it wasn't "liberals" that tried to preserve slavery and segregation.

    I understand why "white liberal" is a negative term; some of it is deserved (and I am one).  But there's an intellectually dishonest line of discussion that would suggest there's a lineage from the Democrats that fought against Lincoln to Derek Chauvin (a well-known "white liberal").  And it's bullshit.  Blacks vote with the Democrats because the racists tend to be on the right.  Have the Democrats taken it for granted and even exploited it?  Yes.  But today's Democrats are not the segregators.  Today's Republicans are much closer to that.

    Oh yeah, it wasn't "liberals" trying to preserve slavery, but it is the same Democratic Party. And once that party became more liberal, those liberals began trying to make up for the sins of their Democrat predecessors. But I, like Malcom X, find it to be disingenuous a lot of the time. Do they REALLY care about inequality and systemic racism? Or do they only care when it's in their best political interest to care? And like I said, I'm not trying to say all "white liberals" are like that. There's many that really want to help. I just don't think many of them are in elected office. 
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 18,129
     A true daughter of the confederacy has written what should be the last words on the monuments:

    By Caroline Randall Williams
    June 26, 2020

    I have rape-colored skin. My light-brown-blackness is a living testament to the rules, the practices, the causes of the Old South.

    If there are those who want to remember the legacy of the Confederacy, if they want monuments, well, then, my body is a monument. My skin is a monument.

    Dead Confederates are honored all over this country — with cartoonish private statues, solemn public monuments and even in the names of United States Army bases. It fortifies and heartens me to witness the protests against this practice and the growing clamor from serious, nonpartisan public servants to redress it. But there are still those — like President Trump and the Senate majority leader,Mitch McConnell — who cannot understand the difference between rewriting and reframing the past. I say it is not a matter of “airbrushing” history, but of adding a new perspective.

    I am a black, Southern woman, and of my immediate white male ancestors, all of them were rapists. My very existence is a relic of slavery and Jim Crow.

    According to the rule of hypodescent (the social and legal practice of assigning a genetically mixed-race person to the race with less social power) I am the daughter of two black people, the granddaughter of four black people, the great-granddaughter of eight black people. Go back one more generation and it gets less straightforward, and more sinister. As far as family history has always told, and as modern DNA testing has allowed me to confirm, I am the descendant of black women who were domestic servants and white men who raped their help.

    It is an extraordinary truth of my life that I am biologically more than half white, and yet I have no white people in my genealogy in living memory. No. Voluntary. Whiteness. I am more than half white, and none of it was consensual. White Southern men — my ancestors — took what they wanted from women they did not love, over whom they had extraordinary power, and then failed to claim their children.

    What is a monument but a standing memory? An artifact to make tangible the truth of the past. My body and blood are a tangible truth of the South and its past. The black people I come from were owned by the white people I come from. The white people I come from fought and died for their Lost Cause. And I ask you now, who dares to tell me to celebrate them? Who dares to ask me to accept their mounted pedestals?

    You cannot dismiss me as someone who doesn’t understand. You cannot say it wasn’t my family members who fought and died. My blackness does not put me on the other side of anything. It puts me squarely at the heart of the debate. I don’t just come from the South. I come from Confederates. I’ve got rebel-gray blue blood coursing my veins. My great-grandfather Will was raised with the knowledge that Edmund Pettus was his father. Pettus, the storied Confederate general, the grand dragon of the Ku Klux Klan, the man for whom Selma’s Bloody Sunday Bridge is named. So I am not an outsider who makes these demands. I am a great-great-granddaughter.

    And here I’m called to say that there is much about the South that is precious to me. I do my best teaching and writing here. There is, however, a peculiar model of Southern pride that must now, at long last, be reckoned with.

    This is not an ignorant pride but a defiant one. It is a pride that says, “Our history is rich, our causes are justified, our ancestors lie beyond reproach.” It is a pining for greatness, if you will, a wish again for a certain kind of American memory. A monument-worthy memory.

    But here’s the thing: Our ancestors don’t deserve your unconditional pride. Yes, I am proud of every one of my black ancestors who survived slavery. They earned that pride, by any decent person’s reckoning. But I am not proud of the white ancestors whom I know, by virtue of my very existence, to be bad actors.

    Among the apologists for the Southern cause and for its monuments, there are those who dismiss the hardships of the past. They imagine a world of benevolent masters, and speak with misty eyes of gentility and honor and the land. They deny plantation rape, or explain it away, or question the degree of frequency with which it occurred.

    To those people it is my privilege to say, I am proof. I am proof that whatever else the South might have been, or might believe itself to be, it was and is a space whose prosperity and sense of romance and nostalgia were built upon the grievous exploitation of black life.

    The dream version of the Old South never existed. Any manufactured monument to that time in that place tells half a truth at best. The ideas and ideals it purports to honor are not real. To those who have embraced these delusions: Now is the time to re-examine your position.

    Either you have been blind to a truth that my body’s story forces you to see, or you really do mean to honor the oppressors at the expense of the oppressed, and you must at last acknowledge your emotional investment in a legacy of hate.

    Either way, I say the monuments of stone and metal, the monuments of cloth and wood, all the man-made monuments, must come down. I defy any sentimental Southerner to defend our ancestors to me. I am quite literally made of the reasons to strip them of their laurels.

    Caroline Randall Williams(@caroranwill) is the author of “Lucy Negro, Redux” and “Soul Food Love,” and a writer in residence at Vanderbilt University.

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,063
    mickeyrat said:
     A true daughter of the confederacy has written what should be the last words on the monuments:

    By Caroline Randall Williams
    June 26, 2020

    I have rape-colored skin. My light-brown-blackness is a living testament to the rules, the practices, the causes of the Old South.

    If there are those who want to remember the legacy of the Confederacy, if they want monuments, well, then, my body is a monument. My skin is a monument.

    Dead Confederates are honored all over this country — with cartoonish private statues, solemn public monuments and even in the names of United States Army bases. It fortifies and heartens me to witness the protests against this practice and the growing clamor from serious, nonpartisan public servants to redress it. But there are still those — like President Trump and the Senate majority leader,Mitch McConnell — who cannot understand the difference between rewriting and reframing the past. I say it is not a matter of “airbrushing” history, but of adding a new perspective.

    I am a black, Southern woman, and of my immediate white male ancestors, all of them were rapists. My very existence is a relic of slavery and Jim Crow.

    According to the rule of hypodescent (the social and legal practice of assigning a genetically mixed-race person to the race with less social power) I am the daughter of two black people, the granddaughter of four black people, the great-granddaughter of eight black people. Go back one more generation and it gets less straightforward, and more sinister. As far as family history has always told, and as modern DNA testing has allowed me to confirm, I am the descendant of black women who were domestic servants and white men who raped their help.

    It is an extraordinary truth of my life that I am biologically more than half white, and yet I have no white people in my genealogy in living memory. No. Voluntary. Whiteness. I am more than half white, and none of it was consensual. White Southern men — my ancestors — took what they wanted from women they did not love, over whom they had extraordinary power, and then failed to claim their children.

    What is a monument but a standing memory? An artifact to make tangible the truth of the past. My body and blood are a tangible truth of the South and its past. The black people I come from were owned by the white people I come from. The white people I come from fought and died for their Lost Cause. And I ask you now, who dares to tell me to celebrate them? Who dares to ask me to accept their mounted pedestals?

    You cannot dismiss me as someone who doesn’t understand. You cannot say it wasn’t my family members who fought and died. My blackness does not put me on the other side of anything. It puts me squarely at the heart of the debate. I don’t just come from the South. I come from Confederates. I’ve got rebel-gray blue blood coursing my veins. My great-grandfather Will was raised with the knowledge that Edmund Pettus was his father. Pettus, the storied Confederate general, the grand dragon of the Ku Klux Klan, the man for whom Selma’s Bloody Sunday Bridge is named. So I am not an outsider who makes these demands. I am a great-great-granddaughter.

    And here I’m called to say that there is much about the South that is precious to me. I do my best teaching and writing here. There is, however, a peculiar model of Southern pride that must now, at long last, be reckoned with.

    This is not an ignorant pride but a defiant one. It is a pride that says, “Our history is rich, our causes are justified, our ancestors lie beyond reproach.” It is a pining for greatness, if you will, a wish again for a certain kind of American memory. A monument-worthy memory.

    But here’s the thing: Our ancestors don’t deserve your unconditional pride. Yes, I am proud of every one of my black ancestors who survived slavery. They earned that pride, by any decent person’s reckoning. But I am not proud of the white ancestors whom I know, by virtue of my very existence, to be bad actors.

    Among the apologists for the Southern cause and for its monuments, there are those who dismiss the hardships of the past. They imagine a world of benevolent masters, and speak with misty eyes of gentility and honor and the land. They deny plantation rape, or explain it away, or question the degree of frequency with which it occurred.

    To those people it is my privilege to say, I am proof. I am proof that whatever else the South might have been, or might believe itself to be, it was and is a space whose prosperity and sense of romance and nostalgia were built upon the grievous exploitation of black life.

    The dream version of the Old South never existed. Any manufactured monument to that time in that place tells half a truth at best. The ideas and ideals it purports to honor are not real. To those who have embraced these delusions: Now is the time to re-examine your position.

    Either you have been blind to a truth that my body’s story forces you to see, or you really do mean to honor the oppressors at the expense of the oppressed, and you must at last acknowledge your emotional investment in a legacy of hate.

    Either way, I say the monuments of stone and metal, the monuments of cloth and wood, all the man-made monuments, must come down. I defy any sentimental Southerner to defend our ancestors to me. I am quite literally made of the reasons to strip them of their laurels.

    Caroline Randall Williams(@caroranwill) is the author of “Lucy Negro, Redux” and “Soul Food Love,” and a writer in residence at Vanderbilt University.


    I read that online. Powerful and true. Thanks for posting it. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 1,772
    brianlux said:
    I call bullshit.  I'm not naive.  I know the governor is not a saint.  Like all of us, he has his flaws.  But I've listened to him and read enough to know he has gone to bat for homeless folks repeatedly.   But, OK, let's say he could do better.  Right?  Fine.  So tell, me, how is running a siren and screaming incomprehensible rants over a bull horn during the governors update going to help homeless people, or win anyone over to the BLM cause? 

    Are situations like that just mentioned, or the short lived social experiment that rapidly went clusterfuck called CHAZ (or CHOP)-- are these actions going to create positive change?  You would have a hard time convincing me.  Radical acts that create positive change are righteous.  But to succeed, radical acts need competent leadership, strength of organization, clear goals, hard work, and possibly most important, creativity.  This used to happen.  The Civil Rights Movement made great strides.  With The Black Power Movement, black Americans took charge and worked to increase black pride and reforming strong family bonds in African American families.  (The break down in the African American family is hurting the plight of blacks in America in big ways.  There is a lot of literature about that, the best of which is written by African American thinkers.)

    Today, we have well meaning liberal white Americans who feel guilty, often refer to themselves as "racist", and have a strong desire to be saviors of the black people in America. 

    On the other en of the spectrum, there are black and white people who believe burning shit and disrupt public addresses is the way to go, but they lack leadership, organization, and specific goals.  Neither extreme is helping.  The reality is, black Americans will not find themselves in a better position by being "saved" by whites or by blacks creating disturbances without a well thought out plan or goal.    What is needed is strong leadership, goals, a clearly thought out plan, and both courage and love.  I'm not seeing much of that happening. 

    To comment on the three things I've bolded....

    1. Yep, that sort of crap turns normal people away from the cause. 

    2. Happy to see you've changed your CHOP stance. You were one of the optimistic ones at first. You give people an inch, and they want more. That's why despite getting their little CHOP area for weeks, they surrounded the mayor's house two days ago because she hasn't given them EVERYTHING they wanted. The statue stuff is similar. They start with the confederate statues, and before long, they're onto Washington, Grant, and Roosevelt statues. 

    3. White liberals have been using and manipulating the black community for almost 100 years. That's how, despite the fact that the democrats started a war to preserve slavery and then implemented horrible Jim Crow laws, they have the black vote. This was one of the key stances of Malcom X: that white liberals totally take advantage of the black community. In fairness, there are some well-meaning ones, of course. But they're out on the streets or online. The leadership of the democratic party are another story. When Nancy Pelosi puts on traditional African garb and takes a knee in the congress in honor of George Floyd, she's really saying, "Vote for me and the democrats."


    Ledbetterman 10, Great posts!!
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,063
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 13,303
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    I think the protesters are a lot like the police. The majority are good. But the bad ones cause chaos and give the good ones a bad name. So similar to how there's a "correct" way to police, there's a "correct" way to protest. Marching with your Black Lives Matter sign? Correct. Destroying property or attacking people? Incorrect. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2

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  • tbergstbergs Posts: 6,924
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    My wife and I were just having this discussion the other day. Even people I would consider rational are confounded by why these extreme disruptions exist, even though it seems glaringly obvious why they do it. Does it help to write letters, make phone calls or stop in to your local elected officials office? No, not really, but what does get their attention is if you start calling them out in public whenever you can so everyone can see it. How much change ever happens without overt actions? Look at climate change. We've been bouncing around shit for decades and still can barely make any headway. Obviously racial inequity is 10x worse even though several overt actions have happened over the course of the last 150 years. Unless you disrupt people's lives, they aren't going to care because in most cases they don't see the direct impact in their day-to-day life.

    Even here in MN, it's pretty dead. Our state officials recessed without any reform or changes being agreed upon in relation to statewide police standards. Good for the governor for pushing them to meet in the first place, but even he has washed his hands of it because he did what he's supposed to. Everyone just keeps pointing the finger and blaming the other side and then when people who are fed up with being ignored show up where it's "not appropriate" the privileged among us shake their heads because they've moved on.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,063
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    I think the protesters are a lot like the police. The majority are good. But the bad ones cause chaos and give the good ones a bad name. So similar to how there's a "correct" way to police, there's a "correct" way to protest. Marching with your Black Lives Matter sign? Correct. Destroying property or attacking people? Incorrect. 
    Completely incorrect. The police are hired and paid to do a job and the public has the right to expect that every single one of them meets the standards of their profession and upholds the law. There is absolutely no such obligation on the general public, and what's more, the idea that there's a single "correct" way to protest is false and designed to limit the protests to actions that are bound to be ineffective. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 24,066
    Does anyone remember when Darth Cheney had the protest pens set up a mile or so away from the convention center during the 2004 repub convention? To keep all those unwashed Iraq war protestors away from ruffling the repub attendees' feathers? Now, that's the correct way to protest.
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  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 13,303
    edited July 1
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    I think the protesters are a lot like the police. The majority are good. But the bad ones cause chaos and give the good ones a bad name. So similar to how there's a "correct" way to police, there's a "correct" way to protest. Marching with your Black Lives Matter sign? Correct. Destroying property or attacking people? Incorrect. 
    Completely incorrect. The police are hired and paid to do a job and the public has the right to expect that every single one of them meets the standards of their profession and upholds the law. There is absolutely no such obligation on the general public, and what's more, the idea that there's a single "correct" way to protest is false and designed to limit the protests to actions that are bound to be ineffective. 
    Some of these so-called protesters are really just violent anarchists, and they aren't being called out by anyone that supports the movement. Similar to how the so-called "good cops" rarely-if-ever call out the "bad cops."

    You know what else causes protests to be ineffective? When the actions of the protesters make no sense in relation to the cause they're supposed to protesting for. So when they tear down a George Washington statue, or burn down a Wendy's, or turn their neighborhood into an autonomous zone, it turns people off of their cause. You're right to say that people have predictably begun moving on from all of this. The first night, when emotions were running high, and they burned down the Minneapolis police barracks, well, shit happens. But all the violence and property destruction since then has been ridiculous and nobody with any influcence on the BLM side of things says or does anything about it. 
    Post edited by Ledbetterman10 on
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 24,066
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    I think the protesters are a lot like the police. The majority are good. But the bad ones cause chaos and give the good ones a bad name. So similar to how there's a "correct" way to police, there's a "correct" way to protest. Marching with your Black Lives Matter sign? Correct. Destroying property or attacking people? Incorrect. 
    Completely incorrect. The police are hired and paid to do a job and the public has the right to expect that every single one of them meets the standards of their profession and upholds the law. There is absolutely no such obligation on the general public, and what's more, the idea that there's a single "correct" way to protest is false and designed to limit the protests to actions that are bound to be ineffective. 
    Some of these so-called protesters are really just violent anarchists, and they aren't being called out by anyone that supports the movement. Similar to how the so-called "good cops" rarely-if-ever call out the "bad cops."

    You know what else causes protests to be ineffective? When the actions of the protesters make no sense in relation to the cause they're supposed to protesting for. So when they tear down a George Washington statue, or burn down a Wendy's, or turn their neighborhood into an autonomous zone, it turns people off of their cause. You're right to say that people have predictably begun moving on from all of this. The first night, when emotions were running high, and they burned down the Minneapolis police barracks, well, shit happens. But all the violence and property destruction since then has been ridiculous and nobody with any influcence on the BLM side of things says or does anything about it. 
    And yet, changes are happening. More so now than ever. Will they be sustained and effective? Time will tell. But we're already seeing police budgets being diminished and the dollars put toward other things that might alleviate the frustrations. Again, time will tell but at the very least, it seems they got everyone's fucking attention.
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  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 5,500
    edited July 1
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    I think the protesters are a lot like the police. The majority are good. But the bad ones cause chaos and give the good ones a bad name. So similar to how there's a "correct" way to police, there's a "correct" way to protest. Marching with your Black Lives Matter sign? Correct. Destroying property or attacking people? Incorrect. 
    Completely incorrect. The police are hired and paid to do a job and the public has the right to expect that every single one of them meets the standards of their profession and upholds the law. There is absolutely no such obligation on the general public, and what's more, the idea that there's a single "correct" way to protest is false and designed to limit the protests to actions that are bound to be ineffective. 
    So you ARE okay with the protests where half the crowd are carrying AR-15s?  They seem to get quite a bit of attention too...It sounds like you are saying that you are okay with whatever gets public or media attention, however dangerous or disruptive, as long as it aligns with what YOU consider justified causes?  Maybe I’m reading you wrong, and if so, where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable and what is not?
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 13,303
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    I think the protesters are a lot like the police. The majority are good. But the bad ones cause chaos and give the good ones a bad name. So similar to how there's a "correct" way to police, there's a "correct" way to protest. Marching with your Black Lives Matter sign? Correct. Destroying property or attacking people? Incorrect. 
    Completely incorrect. The police are hired and paid to do a job and the public has the right to expect that every single one of them meets the standards of their profession and upholds the law. There is absolutely no such obligation on the general public, and what's more, the idea that there's a single "correct" way to protest is false and designed to limit the protests to actions that are bound to be ineffective. 
    Some of these so-called protesters are really just violent anarchists, and they aren't being called out by anyone that supports the movement. Similar to how the so-called "good cops" rarely-if-ever call out the "bad cops."

    You know what else causes protests to be ineffective? When the actions of the protesters make no sense in relation to the cause they're supposed to protesting for. So when they tear down a George Washington statue, or burn down a Wendy's, or turn their neighborhood into an autonomous zone, it turns people off of their cause. You're right to say that people have predictably begun moving on from all of this. The first night, when emotions were running high, and they burned down the Minneapolis police barracks, well, shit happens. But all the violence and property destruction since then has been ridiculous and nobody with any influcence on the BLM side of things says or does anything about it. 
    And yet, changes are happening. More so now than ever. Will they be sustained and effective? Time will tell. But we're already seeing police budgets being diminished and the dollars put toward other things that might alleviate the frustrations. Again, time will tell but at the very least, it seems they got everyone's fucking attention.
    Oh they definitely have everyone’s fucking attention. I still don’t think cutting police budgets will be helpful though. Especially in high-crime areas with a lot of black-on-black crime (Chicago for example). 

    But besides seeing police budgets being cut, what else is happening? I ask that seriously because I’m not sure other than stuff like Aunt Jemima being changed. 
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  • PJNBPJNB New BrunswickPosts: 7,273
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    I think the protesters are a lot like the police. The majority are good. But the bad ones cause chaos and give the good ones a bad name. So similar to how there's a "correct" way to police, there's a "correct" way to protest. Marching with your Black Lives Matter sign? Correct. Destroying property or attacking people? Incorrect. 
    Completely incorrect. The police are hired and paid to do a job and the public has the right to expect that every single one of them meets the standards of their profession and upholds the law. There is absolutely no such obligation on the general public, and what's more, the idea that there's a single "correct" way to protest is false and designed to limit the protests to actions that are bound to be ineffective. 
    Some of these so-called protesters are really just violent anarchists, and they aren't being called out by anyone that supports the movement. Similar to how the so-called "good cops" rarely-if-ever call out the "bad cops."

    You know what else causes protests to be ineffective? When the actions of the protesters make no sense in relation to the cause they're supposed to protesting for. So when they tear down a George Washington statue, or burn down a Wendy's, or turn their neighborhood into an autonomous zone, it turns people off of their cause. You're right to say that people have predictably begun moving on from all of this. The first night, when emotions were running high, and they burned down the Minneapolis police barracks, well, shit happens. But all the violence and property destruction since then has been ridiculous and nobody with any influcence on the BLM side of things says or does anything about it. 
    Good cops need to call out bad cops because that is their job to uphold the law wether it is a cop or a civilian and they are failing at this. To put protestors on the same level of responsibility as cops is not a good comparison imo. Protestors do not need to do anything other than peacefully protest. They can not control the vandals and looters. That is the cops job that they signed up to do when they got hired. Also I have seen plenty of cases of BLM leaders and protesters calling out the looters and violence so I am not sure why you are wording as you are. 
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  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,347
    edited July 1
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    I think the protesters are a lot like the police. The majority are good. But the bad ones cause chaos and give the good ones a bad name. So similar to how there's a "correct" way to police, there's a "correct" way to protest. Marching with your Black Lives Matter sign? Correct. Destroying property or attacking people? Incorrect. 
    Completely incorrect. The police are hired and paid to do a job and the public has the right to expect that every single one of them meets the standards of their profession and upholds the law. There is absolutely no such obligation on the general public, and what's more, the idea that there's a single "correct" way to protest is false and designed to limit the protests to actions that are bound to be ineffective. 
    Some of these so-called protesters are really just violent anarchists, and they aren't being called out by anyone that supports the movement. Similar to how the so-called "good cops" rarely-if-ever call out the "bad cops."

    You know what else causes protests to be ineffective? When the actions of the protesters make no sense in relation to the cause they're supposed to protesting for. So when they tear down a George Washington statue, or burn down a Wendy's, or turn their neighborhood into an autonomous zone, it turns people off of their cause. You're right to say that people have predictably begun moving on from all of this. The first night, when emotions were running high, and they burned down the Minneapolis police barracks, well, shit happens. But all the violence and property destruction since then has been ridiculous and nobody with any influcence on the BLM side of things says or does anything about it. 
    And yet, changes are happening. More so now than ever. Will they be sustained and effective? Time will tell. But we're already seeing police budgets being diminished and the dollars put toward other things that might alleviate the frustrations. Again, time will tell but at the very least, it seems they got everyone's fucking attention.
    Oh they definitely have everyone’s fucking attention. I still don’t think cutting police budgets will be helpful though. Especially in high-crime areas with a lot of black-on-black crime (Chicago for example). 

    But besides seeing police budgets being cut, what else is happening? I ask that seriously because I’m not sure other than stuff like Aunt Jemima being changed. 
    Seems like shootings are way up in nyc since Deblasio made some really dumb changes.  
    https://news.yahoo.com/rise-shootings-continues-nyc-amid-125608039.html
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 13,303
    PJNB said:
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 
    I think the protesters are a lot like the police. The majority are good. But the bad ones cause chaos and give the good ones a bad name. So similar to how there's a "correct" way to police, there's a "correct" way to protest. Marching with your Black Lives Matter sign? Correct. Destroying property or attacking people? Incorrect. 
    Completely incorrect. The police are hired and paid to do a job and the public has the right to expect that every single one of them meets the standards of their profession and upholds the law. There is absolutely no such obligation on the general public, and what's more, the idea that there's a single "correct" way to protest is false and designed to limit the protests to actions that are bound to be ineffective. 
    Some of these so-called protesters are really just violent anarchists, and they aren't being called out by anyone that supports the movement. Similar to how the so-called "good cops" rarely-if-ever call out the "bad cops."

    You know what else causes protests to be ineffective? When the actions of the protesters make no sense in relation to the cause they're supposed to protesting for. So when they tear down a George Washington statue, or burn down a Wendy's, or turn their neighborhood into an autonomous zone, it turns people off of their cause. You're right to say that people have predictably begun moving on from all of this. The first night, when emotions were running high, and they burned down the Minneapolis police barracks, well, shit happens. But all the violence and property destruction since then has been ridiculous and nobody with any influcence on the BLM side of things says or does anything about it. 
    Good cops need to call out bad cops because that is their job to uphold the law wether it is a cop or a civilian and they are failing at this. To put protestors on the same level of responsibility as cops is not a good comparison imo. Protestors do not need to do anything other than peacefully protest. They can not control the vandals and looters. That is the cops job that they signed up to do when they got hired. Also I have seen plenty of cases of BLM leaders and protesters calling out the looters and violence so I am not sure why you are wording as you are. 
    I haven't seen plenty of those cases of BLM leaders calling out looters and violence, that's why I'm wording it as I am. 

    And it should be the cops' job to control looters and vandals, but they've been not allowed to in a lot of instances. Seattle especially, of course. And sometimes when the cops have tried to restore order, like that instance in Miami a few weeks ago, they're video-taped and shamed for trying to do their jobs. 
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,095
    Predictably, but unfortunately, it seems a chunk of people have already moved on from a stance of seeing the protests as being a necessary and valid part of the process of change, to being irritated by disruption, impatient with discomfort and feeling a need to direct others as to the correct way to protest. 

    I (and most of us here) have not rejected the validity of much of the recent protests about the horrific and immoral killing of George Floyd.  Your generalization here certainly has little to do with what I said in my post (but admittedly you did not direct you words specifically to me.)   But I'll assume you direct your comments, at least in part to me, so I will respond thus:

    You seem to be throwing all protest actions into one giant basket, as if every action of protest is valid and helpful to a cause.  I wonder if you really believe that?  I'd be interested to know how destroying the small business and livelihood of a minority person of color is helpful in improving black lives.  How was the lack of cohesive action, leadership, and organization leading, for example, to the chaos and a quick movement toward random violence in CHAZ useful in helping create a better society?  How violent actions equal in usefulness to the non-violent protest of many thousands of us who were outraged by Floyd's killing?

    Irritated by disruption?  Yeah, disruption for the sake of disruption without a clear goal in mind is irritating.  I'll cop to that. Maybe that's because I know what it is to work hard with others with a clear goal in mind to help create useful change.  Mere disruption is more often mindless and aimless.  That's easy.  Anybody can do that.

    Impatient?  I've been championing social change and environmental protection for over 50 years and seen little change and I know the difference between a useful, constructive, well organized, hard fought plan of action, and aimless, unproductive chaos.  Damn right I'm impatient.

    Feeling a need to direct others? Do you say that because you disagree with what others say?  Personally, I'm more for promoting working together.  I don't voice an opinion as a way of "directing others".    Relax and don't be so defensive.  I'm not telling you what  to do.  I don't think anyone else here is either. 
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  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 23,347
    See you Stonewall....(my uncle who resides in Richmond sent this to me)

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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