What you call "mental masturbation," I call the advancement of knowledge. If I treated your job as dismissively as you're treating mind, you'd throw a fit.
There's a time and place for pontificating. I said that multiple times. My world is not that place. I'm not treating your job dismissively in the least. I don't even know what it is. You say you're in academia but not a scholar. What does that mean? Are you a grad assistant? Are you an adjunct? Are you someone not expected to publish? So don't get all offended. I'm a big fan of academia. But like I said, when you're running a P&L, you have to make a call, usually with imperfect information.
I never said I'm not a scholar. Man, read what I actually say. I've pointed out areas in which I'm not a scholar--that's not the same thing as "I'm not a scholar." I'm a tenured professor with an active research agenda, fwiw.
And ffs, this is you trying not be dismissive? Do you know what the word "pontificating" means?!?!?
Hit expand and see my bold.. you said you weren't a scholar, but sorry I didn't read it to some implied point that you weren't a scholar on a particular topic.
Regarding the 'pontificate', where I come from we don't use it as a disparaging term...it's just over the top pondering. We have our own definition.. like patriarchy.
Nothing was "implied"--you're just not a very attentive reader.
I'm at work, on conference calls and doing 20 other things. This is filler for me because I need constant stimulation. You never said you were a scholar in another field. You said you weren't a philosophy scholar. Sorry that I made such a wild leap.
If I remember correctly, a scholar in humanities.
Good memory!
area of focus in that realm?
My department is English, I’m an American literature specialist, whose primary research area is literature and American politics (esp. radical politics) from about 1880-1940s. I have a secondary research interest in Theory, and I publish on academic freedom and pedagogy.
I am a HS dropout(senior year no less) in 86. GED recipient in 95. Drunken Pot smoking crackhead (yes I am serious)Sober since 06. I drive a truck. And listen to a lot of stuff via audiobook. And despite some choices throughtout life, I consider myself fairly intelligent to a point.... also willing to admit when I am wrong or at least open to the eventuality.....
I’m a high school dropout too! We’re already finding things we have in common.
I find it easier to have discussions when there is ome degree of familiarity between those in the discussion.
so how long was your evolution in thinking on this particular subject or at least the identity side of of it? not to suggest you have completed that evolution but surely as you described some of your upbringing, its been quite the transformation, albeit on in progress.
Began in college. Picked up pace in grad school.
6 or 7 yrs to get to this point for you then?
More like 15. In fits and starts.
how much space did you have to evolve and grow to this current understanding?
At first, very little. Super religious college. Later a bit more. Money struggles also had a big effect.
it at least became something you could arrive at in your own tine. is that a generally fair statement?
It is a point I daily regret not reaching sooner.
be that as it may, an observation is , you dont seem willing to afford the rest of us the same room, but rather are pushing your regret off on us. its not fair. am fairly sure most will evolve on this subject to the positive. honestly some of your efforts here are standing in the way of that. I asdume your desire is for all of to arrive at similar thinking. Cut us a little slack. your journey took 15 yrs, dont expect ours to be overnight
No. The story I tell of my coming to this point is not a positive one; I'm not bragging by telling it or suggesting others should do the same. It's the story of a shameful period when I was ignorant and, unfortunately, didn't have people in my life to call me out on my bullshit. Others' journey may take time--I get that--but that does not eliminate our responsibility to call them out on their bullshit during that journey.
and it can be done respectfully. What YOU or anyone thinks is their intent is a distant second to the results of how its received. I think your results are pretty clear.
I've seen no evidence that a different approach works with the people here.
First, I've seen no evidence that you've ever tried a different approach with the people here. Next, that's simply not true - I've disagreed with many people on this thread and had my mind changed and seen others' minds changed as well.
Awesome. Maybe you can answer this query I posted six pages ago, then:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine.
You're welcome to look through the Israel/Palestine thread to find them for yourself. Or a Trump thread. Or one about how Democrats and Republicans treat each other. Or about the merits of socialism. Or contextualism in general.
I'll get on the reading, but perhaps you could give me a starting point: what did you do/say initially that you now see was inappropriate?
I'm not playing this game. I don't owe you proof that my mind has been changed in material ways on here. I gave you a head-start. According to the post count, I've posted about 8,000 times. Have fun, or better yet, find something less pedantic to do than this; it's a waste of your time.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
What you call "mental masturbation," I call the advancement of knowledge. If I treated your job as dismissively as you're treating mind, you'd throw a fit.
There's a time and place for pontificating. I said that multiple times. My world is not that place. I'm not treating your job dismissively in the least. I don't even know what it is. You say you're in academia but not a scholar. What does that mean? Are you a grad assistant? Are you an adjunct? Are you someone not expected to publish? So don't get all offended. I'm a big fan of academia. But like I said, when you're running a P&L, you have to make a call, usually with imperfect information.
I never said I'm not a scholar. Man, read what I actually say. I've pointed out areas in which I'm not a scholar--that's not the same thing as "I'm not a scholar." I'm a tenured professor with an active research agenda, fwiw.
And ffs, this is you trying not be dismissive? Do you know what the word "pontificating" means?!?!?
Hit expand and see my bold.. you said you weren't a scholar, but sorry I didn't read it to some implied point that you weren't a scholar on a particular topic.
Regarding the 'pontificate', where I come from we don't use it as a disparaging term...it's just over the top pondering. We have our own definition.. like patriarchy.
Nothing was "implied"--you're just not a very attentive reader.
I'm at work, on conference calls and doing 20 other things. This is filler for me because I need constant stimulation. You never said you were a scholar in another field. You said you weren't a philosophy scholar. Sorry that I made such a wild leap.
If I remember correctly, a scholar in humanities.
Good memory!
area of focus in that realm?
My department is English, I’m an American literature specialist, whose primary research area is literature and American politics (esp. radical politics) from about 1880-1940s. I have a secondary research interest in Theory, and I publish on academic freedom and pedagogy.
I am a HS dropout(senior year no less) in 86. GED recipient in 95. Drunken Pot smoking crackhead (yes I am serious)Sober since 06. I drive a truck. And listen to a lot of stuff via audiobook. And despite some choices throughtout life, I consider myself fairly intelligent to a point.... also willing to admit when I am wrong or at least open to the eventuality.....
I’m a high school dropout too! We’re already finding things we have in common.
I find it easier to have discussions when there is ome degree of familiarity between those in the discussion.
so how long was your evolution in thinking on this particular subject or at least the identity side of of it? not to suggest you have completed that evolution but surely as you described some of your upbringing, its been quite the transformation, albeit on in progress.
Began in college. Picked up pace in grad school.
6 or 7 yrs to get to this point for you then?
More like 15. In fits and starts.
how much space did you have to evolve and grow to this current understanding?
At first, very little. Super religious college. Later a bit more. Money struggles also had a big effect.
it at least became something you could arrive at in your own tine. is that a generally fair statement?
It is a point I daily regret not reaching sooner.
be that as it may, an observation is , you dont seem willing to afford the rest of us the same room, but rather are pushing your regret off on us. its not fair. am fairly sure most will evolve on this subject to the positive. honestly some of your efforts here are standing in the way of that. I asdume your desire is for all of to arrive at similar thinking. Cut us a little slack. your journey took 15 yrs, dont expect ours to be overnight
No. The story I tell of my coming to this point is not a positive one; I'm not bragging by telling it or suggesting others should do the same. It's the story of a shameful period when I was ignorant and, unfortunately, didn't have people in my life to call me out on my bullshit. Others' journey may take time--I get that--but that does not eliminate our responsibility to call them out on their bullshit during that journey.
and it can be done respectfully. What YOU or anyone thinks is their intent is a distant second to the results of how its received. I think your results are pretty clear.
I've seen no evidence that a different approach works with the people here.
First, I've seen no evidence that you've ever tried a different approach with the people here. Next, that's simply not true - I've disagreed with many people on this thread and had my mind changed and seen others' minds changed as well.
Awesome. Maybe you can answer this query I posted six pages ago, then:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine.
You're welcome to look through the Israel/Palestine thread to find them for yourself. Or a Trump thread. Or one about how Democrats and Republicans treat each other. Or about the merits of socialism. Or contextualism in general.
I'll get on the reading, but perhaps you could give me a starting point: what did you do/say initially that you now see was inappropriate?
I'm not playing this game. I don't owe you proof that my mind has been changed in material ways on here. I gave you a head-start. According to the post count, I've posted about 8,000 times. Have fun, or better yet, find something less pedantic to do than this; it's a waste of your time.
I didn't ask for proof that your mind has been changed in material ways; I asked for one instance where you said something inappropriate and later admitted that what you said was inappropriate. I've posted way less than you, so I thought you would already be up to date on what we've been talking about here. You might call that pedantic, but people keep telling me to go read things when they haven't even read the actual conversation in which they're participating.
Ugh ... smart people trying to use big words to be dicks to each other. AMT for sure!
It happens all the time. Often for me its in how I'm engaging someone. I feel what I;m saying is fine they take offense and off we go. Taking time to read and trying to see it from their point of view sometimes changes my mind. I forget the discussion but it happened here recently with me and a member diggin. We really do not see eye to eye on a lot of things. I realized though that my initial statement was a bit dismissive and would stifle rather than allow a good dialogue. I apologized later that night or the next day. It happens, especially in the heat of the disagreement when discussion unfortunately becomes an argument. Happens to me and by me. Some take time to rethink and apologize, some do not. I can give you a list of those who do not around here in my opinion and I'm sure I'm on their lists. I think you might be there for now too as I haven;t seen any effort on your side since the beginning of the thread.
Ugh ... smart people trying to use big words to be dicks to each other. AMT for sure!
It happens all the time. Often for me its in how I'm engaging someone. I feel what I;m saying is fine they take offense and off we go. Taking time to read and trying to see it from their point of view sometimes changes my mind. I forget the discussion but it happened here recently with me and a member diggin. We really do not see eye to eye on a lot of things. I realized though that my initial statement was a bit dismissive and would stifle rather than allow a good dialogue. I apologized later that night or the next day. It happens, especially in the heat of the disagreement when discussion unfortunately becomes an argument. Happens to me and by me. Some take time to rethink and apologize, some do not. I can give you a list of those who do not around here in my opinion and I'm sure I'm on their lists. I think you might be there for now too as I haven;t seen any effort on your side since the beginning of the thread.
There’s a difference between insulting someone (or being rude to them) and saying something offensive.
Ugh ... smart people trying to use big words to be dicks to each other. AMT for sure!
It happens all the time. Often for me its in how I'm engaging someone. I feel what I;m saying is fine they take offense and off we go. Taking time to read and trying to see it from their point of view sometimes changes my mind. I forget the discussion but it happened here recently with me and a member diggin. We really do not see eye to eye on a lot of things. I realized though that my initial statement was a bit dismissive and would stifle rather than allow a good dialogue. I apologized later that night or the next day. It happens, especially in the heat of the disagreement when discussion unfortunately becomes an argument. Happens to me and by me. Some take time to rethink and apologize, some do not. I can give you a list of those who do not around here in my opinion and I'm sure I'm on their lists. I think you might be there for now too as I haven;t seen any effort on your side since the beginning of the thread.
There’s a difference between insulting someone (or being rude to them) and saying something offensive.
Alright, you asked a question and I answered it and this is all you get out of it. So please stop with the bullshit that you even care to engage other people anymore. You simply want to spout your beliefs and attempt to belittle those that disagree. And I'm done trying to talk to you. Enjoy your pretentious bullshit.
Ugh ... smart people trying to use big words to be dicks to each other. AMT for sure!
It happens all the time. Often for me its in how I'm engaging someone. I feel what I;m saying is fine they take offense and off we go. Taking time to read and trying to see it from their point of view sometimes changes my mind. I forget the discussion but it happened here recently with me and a member diggin. We really do not see eye to eye on a lot of things. I realized though that my initial statement was a bit dismissive and would stifle rather than allow a good dialogue. I apologized later that night or the next day. It happens, especially in the heat of the disagreement when discussion unfortunately becomes an argument. Happens to me and by me. Some take time to rethink and apologize, some do not. I can give you a list of those who do not around here in my opinion and I'm sure I'm on their lists. I think you might be there for now too as I haven;t seen any effort on your side since the beginning of the thread.
There’s a difference between insulting someone (or being rude to them) and saying something offensive.
Alright, you asked a question and I answered it and this is all you get out of it. So please stop with the bullshit that you even care to engage other people anymore. You simply want to spout your beliefs and attempt to belittle those that disagree. And I'm done trying to talk to you. Enjoy your pretentious bullshit.
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
See, what’s the proper way for me to tell Gern he’s being offensive?
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
See, what’s the proper way for me to tell Gern he’s being offensive?
keep in mind that I don't care what pronoun people use....I'm just not going to use it
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
See, what’s the proper way for me to tell Gern he’s being offensive?
keep in mind that I don't care what pronoun people use....I'm just not going to use it
So you’re reinforcing the dehumanization of trans, non-binary, and gender fluid people.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
See, what’s the proper way for me to tell Gern he’s being offensive?
keep in mind that I don't care what pronoun people use....I'm just not going to use it
So you’re reinforcing the dehumanization of trans, non-binary, and gender fluid people.
Not intentionally. I don't think it is fair to make that case against someone who truly doesn't care how people choose to identify.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
See, what’s the proper way for me to tell Gern he’s being offensive?
keep in mind that I don't care what pronoun people use....I'm just not going to use it
So you’re reinforcing the dehumanization of trans, non-binary, and gender fluid people.
Not intentionally. I don't think it is fair to make that case against someone who truly doesn't care how people choose to identify.
Why does your intent matter? I doubt it does to the trans people you’re misgendering.
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
See, what’s the proper way for me to tell Gern he’s being offensive?
keep in mind that I don't care what pronoun people use....I'm just not going to use it
Or instead of this shitty take, you can just choose to respect people.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
See, what’s the proper way for me to tell Gern he’s being offensive?
keep in mind that I don't care what pronoun people use....I'm just not going to use it
Or instead of this shitty take, you can just choose to respect people.
I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives. Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
See, what’s the proper way for me to tell Gern he’s being offensive?
keep in mind that I don't care what pronoun people use....I'm just not going to use it
So you’re reinforcing the dehumanization of trans, non-binary, and gender fluid people.
Not intentionally. I don't think it is fair to make that case against someone who truly doesn't care how people choose to identify.
Why does your intent matter? I doubt it does to the trans people you’re misgendering.
but your intent here is supposed to excuse things, right.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Comments
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
It happens all the time. Often for me its in how I'm engaging someone. I feel what I;m saying is fine they take offense and off we go. Taking time to read and trying to see it from their point of view sometimes changes my mind. I forget the discussion but it happened here recently with me and a member diggin. We really do not see eye to eye on a lot of things. I realized though that my initial statement was a bit dismissive and would stifle rather than allow a good dialogue. I apologized later that night or the next day. It happens, especially in the heat of the disagreement when discussion unfortunately becomes an argument. Happens to me and by me. Some take time to rethink and apologize, some do not. I can give you a list of those who do not around here in my opinion and I'm sure I'm on their lists. I think you might be there for now too as I haven;t seen any effort on your side since the beginning of the thread.
What's the argument here?
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous. They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now. I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
NA NA NA-NA NA-NA NA NAAA
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
1) mrussel’s inane efforts to win an argument he doesn’t understand. You can ignite those parts.
2) some mildly contentious, but generally positive discussion about gender neutral child rearing
3) an open conversation about whether anyone here can actually hear “you’re being offensive” without immediately turtling
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14