All things Transgender related
Comments
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It’s actually just the forum, it can get messed up from a computer too!ecdanc said:
Stupid phone.cincybearcat said:
you are an expert in quoting yourself and looking like you are talking to yourself.ecdanc said:
By your standards, I’m an expert in a bunch of areas!ecdanc said:
I never said I have no formal education in philosophy. I said I’m not a scholar or expert in the field. That’s not the area in which I teach and publish. I’m in the humanities, so I have more philosophy background than most. Doesn’t make me an expert. And no, that is not the most basic tenet of philosophy. You’re just being silly now.mrussel1 said:
Man, you violated the most basic tenant of philosophy by declaring that your opinion was unassailable. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is? And you claim to speak for scholars when you have zero formal education on the topic. My formal education is history and economics. But at least I have a rudimentary background in philosophy as one is required to take 3000 level courses in philosophy for a history degree. Your arguments failed the challenges that HFD and I put forth because you're parroting pieces of information you gather from co workers. That's a recipe for failure.ecdanc said:
you poorly cribbed a very basic website, man.mrussel1 said:
Of course it would be the top. Use your damn brain. It's how Google actually works.ecdanc said:
You crack me up. The exact language you used earlier is in the top link if you search “pillars of philosophy.” It’s fine. Just own it.mrussel1 said:
It's basic. You learn it right away in philosophy. Go Google Keynesian economics now. I can talk about that even though that's also basic economics and on Google. Next Google Age of Jackson and let's discuss Robert Remini's white washing of Jackson's record on Indian Removal.ecdanc said:
Get the picture? Just because you heard of something for the first time today doesn't mean I did.
And I’d be happy to discuss Jackson and the genocide of native Americans with you. I teach it regularly.
Cincy, didn't I ask you to shame me?hippiemom = goodness0 -
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It's a hopeless situation...0
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tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
@ecdanc will try to frame this respectfully. I am curious. when I asked earlier today age grouping you replied. also giving your spouses age. in that response might be the answer to what I am about to ask.now my question is, given your stated way of raising your child, I wonder are you and your spouse modeling the same for your child? Meaning are both you and your spouse living gender neutral lives? I understand the child is only 9 months old, but surely is absorbing language and environment for clues to social cues and the like._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
I’d love to hear what that professor thought of you. 😇tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.0 -
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”brianlux said:tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.0 -
Excellent question. This is something we’ve talked a lot about, down to how we refer to our male cat.mickeyrat said:@ecdanc will try to frame this respectfully. I am curious. when I asked earlier today age grouping you replied. also giving your spouses age. in that response might be the answer to what I am about to ask.now my question is, given your stated way of raising your child, I wonder are you and your spouse modeling the same for your child? Meaning are both you and your spouse living gender neutral lives? I understand the child is only 9 months old, but surely is absorbing language and environment for clues to social cues and the like.
Ultimately, we’re seeking a really tricky balance. On one hand, we want P to know that the world still uses gender basically at all times. In that sense, it’s inescapable. On the other hand, we want them to feel they can shape their own gender identity—deciding if they are a boy, a girl, or neither.
So, to return more concretely to your question: I am a man; my wife is a woman—those are our gender identities. By not hiding those, yet trying (the key word with all of this is “trying”) to provide P with a space where a) people have genders; b) those genders aren’t made a huge deal; and c) it’s ok to embrace either or neither of those genders—that’s how we try to strike that balance. As P gets older we will, of course, also talk directly with them about all of this.
All that is to say, while I may dream of a world where gender—as we currently understand it—doesn’t exist, our child doesn’t live in that world just yet.0 -
ecdanc said:
Excellent question. This is something we’ve talked a lot about, down to how we refer to our male cat.mickeyrat said:@ecdanc will try to frame this respectfully. I am curious. when I asked earlier today age grouping you replied. also giving your spouses age. in that response might be the answer to what I am about to ask.now my question is, given your stated way of raising your child, I wonder are you and your spouse modeling the same for your child? Meaning are both you and your spouse living gender neutral lives? I understand the child is only 9 months old, but surely is absorbing language and environment for clues to social cues and the like.
Ultimately, we’re seeking a really tricky balance. On one hand, we want P to know that the world still uses gender basically at all times. In that sense, it’s inescapable. On the other hand, we want them to feel they can shape their own gender identity—deciding if they are a boy, a girl, or neither.
So, to return more concretely to your question: I am a man; my wife is a woman—those are our gender identities. By not hiding those, yet trying (the key word with all of this is “trying”) to provide P with a space where a) people have genders; b) those genders aren’t made a huge deal; and c) it’s ok to embrace either or neither of those genders—that’s how we try to strike that balance. As P gets older we will, of course, also talk directly with them about all of this.
All that is to say, while I may dream of a world where gender—as we currently understand it—doesn’t exist, our child doesn’t live in that world just yet.thank you.can I ask the reasoning behind including the cat?
Post edited by mickeyrat on_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
Just a suggestion of how pervasive gender is and any efforts to do things differently. Our cat now gets referred to as "they" a lot, just because we've trained ourselves to use that pronoun with P.mickeyrat said:ecdanc said:
Excellent question. This is something we’ve talked a lot about, down to how we refer to our male cat.mickeyrat said:@ecdanc will try to frame this respectfully. I am curious. when I asked earlier today age grouping you replied. also giving your spouses age. in that response might be the answer to what I am about to ask.now my question is, given your stated way of raising your child, I wonder are you and your spouse modeling the same for your child? Meaning are both you and your spouse living gender neutral lives? I understand the child is only 9 months old, but surely is absorbing language and environment for clues to social cues and the like.
Ultimately, we’re seeking a really tricky balance. On one hand, we want P to know that the world still uses gender basically at all times. In that sense, it’s inescapable. On the other hand, we want them to feel they can shape their own gender identity—deciding if they are a boy, a girl, or neither.
So, to return more concretely to your question: I am a man; my wife is a woman—those are our gender identities. By not hiding those, yet trying (the key word with all of this is “trying”) to provide P with a space where a) people have genders; b) those genders aren’t made a huge deal; and c) it’s ok to embrace either or neither of those genders—that’s how we try to strike that balance. As P gets older we will, of course, also talk directly with them about all of this.
All that is to say, while I may dream of a world where gender—as we currently understand it—doesn’t exist, our child doesn’t live in that world just yet.thank you.can I ask the reasoning behind including the cat?0 -
ecdanc said:
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”brianlux said:tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”brianlux said:tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.Post edited by ecdanc on0 -
ecdanc said:
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”brianlux said:tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here."It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Hey are you going to an Oakland show? I'll be at both. Would love to get a beer with you one day.brianlux said:ecdanc said:
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”brianlux said:tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.0 -
Are you telling me there's literally no way for someone to say to you effectively "hey, man, that thing you just said was kinda offensive?"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”brianlux said:tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.0 -
mrussel1 said:
Hey are you going to an Oakland show? I'll be at both. Would love to get a beer with you one day.brianlux said:ecdanc said:
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”brianlux said:tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
Sorry to say, no, I'll miss the show. My tinnitus and hearing issues have gotten so bad that I probably won't be able to do plugged in shows ever again (no need to feel sorry for me though- I've seen so much great music including that killer PJ performance in Missoula in 2012!) We do get down to S.F. now and then. When is the Oakland show? I'd love to meet up if possible!
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
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ecdanc said:
Are you telling me there's literally no way for someone to say to you effectively "hey, man, that thing you just said was kinda offensive?"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”brianlux said:tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
I am literally telling you I'm done with you here. Bye.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
It's so cute when people justify their own unwillingness to change by saying "you're mean!"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
Are you telling me there's literally no way for someone to say to you effectively "hey, man, that thing you just said was kinda offensive?"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"brianlux said:ecdanc said:
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”brianlux said:tbergs said:I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate, your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
I am literally telling you I'm done with you here. Bye.0 -
Anyone else? I've heard a lot of "I'm totally open to new ideas / change, but not from someone with your approach." I'm asking. Begging, even: what approach has actually worked?
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