I can be a little slow on the uptake. all those damaged brain cells....... I make do though.
Is it trolling anytime someone disagrees with you? I'm not trying to get a rise; I'm trying to change views.
“I’m here to learn”
I have been very clear about what it is I want to learn, but I can try rephrasing it: does anyone here ever actually change their mind about things? Or is it just a space of constant "agree to disagree?"
Because I would like to learn how to more effectively speak to people on these boards, but I'm starting to get the sense it might just be a sort of free-for-all where all positions are treated equally. Teehee.
Post edited by ecdanc on
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,304
I have a cousin who son has transitioned into a female...I was at a funeral and I thought she was his daughter...he has a daughter and son...now 2 daughters. Al I can say is she was quite stunning. No one would ever know she used to be a he...
She is his daughter.
Are you that obtuse that you did not understand what implied...
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
I have a cousin who son has transitioned into a female...I was at a funeral and I thought she was his daughter...he has a daughter and son...now 2 daughters. Al I can say is she was quite stunning. No one would ever know she used to be a he...
She is his daughter.
Are you that obtuse that you did not understand what implied...
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Not necessarily.
Plus it might help with guilt, shame, shitty feelings like that. Parents can't help but have expectations and pass that along. I can see how it could make things easier for a child.
Personally, I'm raising my children as boys. I don't care if they have vaginas.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So you are assuming/predicting/guessing your child might transition?
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Not necessarily.
Plus it might help with guilt, shame, shitty feelings like that. Parents can't help but have expectations and pass that along. I can see how it could make things easier for a child.
Personally, I'm raising my children as boys. I don't care if they have vaginas.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So you are assuming/predicting/guessing your child might transition?
Transition from what? They don’t currently have a gender identity.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So you are assuming/predicting/guessing your child might transition?
Transition from what? They don’t currently have a gender identity.
Transition into the whole deal. Hormones, surgieres, etc.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So you are assuming/predicting/guessing your child might transition?
Transition from what? They don’t currently have a gender identity.
Transition into the whole deal. Hormones, surgieres, etc.
That’s only one part of transitioning, a step many trans people don’t take.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So you are assuming/predicting/guessing your child might transition?
Transition from what? They don’t currently have a gender identity.
Transition into the whole deal. Hormones, surgieres, etc.
I should add that my hope is they wouldn’t think of even those physical aspects of transitioning as transitioning.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
And as I also said, gendering my child would be intellectually dishonest: they don’t have a gender identity.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
Gender is harmful? Now that you mention it, it would be nice for you to explain what you mean.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
Gender is harmful? Now that you mention it, it would be nice for you to explain what you mean.
I consider it a discursive formation without which the world would be a better place.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
And as I also said, gendering my child would be intellectually dishonest: they don’t have a gender identity.
People will only chafe if you're obnoxious about it, not if you explain it without implying that their view is different out of ignorance.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
Gender is harmful? Now that you mention it, it would be nice for you to explain what you mean.
I consider it a discursive formation without which the world would be a better place.
So you say it's harmful and you saw better place without it. Please describe for me what you believe to be harmful about it and how the world would be better off without it.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
And as I also said, gendering my child would be intellectually dishonest: they don’t have a gender identity.
People will only chafe if you're obnoxious about it, not if you explain it without implying that their view is different out of ignorance.
Let’s hope. As I said just a moment ago, my stance is quite simple: the world would be better if there never had been nor was there now “gender.”
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
Gender is harmful? Now that you mention it, it would be nice for you to explain what you mean.
I consider it a discursive formation without which the world would be a better place.
So you say it's harmful and you saw better place without it. Please describe for me what you believe to be harmful about it and how the world would be better off without it.
Historically, the power/knowledge of gender has justified and sustained an indescribable array of injustices and inequalities (what might broadly be called “patriarchy”).
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
Gender is harmful? Now that you mention it, it would be nice for you to explain what you mean.
I consider it a discursive formation without which the world would be a better place.
So you say it's harmful and you saw better place without it. Please describe for me what you believe to be harmful about it and how the world would be better off without it.
Historically, the power/knowledge of gender has justified and sustained an indescribable array of injustices and inequalities (what might broadly be called “patriarchy”).
Ah ok. So, in my non-prof manner of talking....having gender is a means to divide people and provide power and other things to one group and not the other group. If you are talking about the old school pre-defined roles of men and women I would certainly agree. However I do not think that is a fault of gender, it's a fault of people. Gender actually helps provide us with real differences that can help make the whole greater than the sum of it's parts if we allow people to fully participate. As I see it anyhow. Perhaps you'd say I am confusing sex with Gender, maybe I am, but I don't think so.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
Gender is harmful? Now that you mention it, it would be nice for you to explain what you mean.
I consider it a discursive formation without which the world would be a better place.
So you say it's harmful and you saw better place without it. Please describe for me what you believe to be harmful about it and how the world would be better off without it.
Historically, the power/knowledge of gender has justified and sustained an indescribable array of injustices and inequalities (what might broadly be called “patriarchy”).
So you mean males have caused injustices. Maybe we should all just identify as female until the time of selection (whatever that means), and then 50% of the population could cross over. Pretty sure we'll still have war, bullying, power struggles, etc. But hey, those boys won't cause any wars in their first three years of life, so that's good.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
Gender is harmful? Now that you mention it, it would be nice for you to explain what you mean.
I consider it a discursive formation without which the world would be a better place.
So you say it's harmful and you saw better place without it. Please describe for me what you believe to be harmful about it and how the world would be better off without it.
Historically, the power/knowledge of gender has justified and sustained an indescribable array of injustices and inequalities (what might broadly be called “patriarchy”).
Ah ok. So, in my non-prof manner of talking....having gender is a means to divide people and provide power and other things to one group and not the other group. If you are talking about the old school pre-defined roles of men and women I would certainly agree. However I do not think that is a fault of gender, it's a fault of people. Gender actually helps provide us with real differences that can help make the whole greater than the sum of it's parts if we allow people to fully participate. As I see it anyhow. Perhaps you'd say I am confusing sex with Gender, maybe I am, but I don't think so.
Yeah, I think you've got it in that 2nd sentence. I'm not sure if you're confusing gender and sex, but that's actually mostly immaterial where we find ourselves now. The heart of our disagreement it appears would be in the sentence of yours I've bolded. I'd say the balance of evidence suggests your description is not how things HAVE worked, thus I'm highly skeptical that they can work in that way. Obviously, I cannot say absolutely one way or the other how gender WILL be reimagined (though I think it's unlikely to be fundamentally reimagined), but I again assert that gender--as a specific power/knowledge--is inherently and irredeemably negative.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
Gender is harmful? Now that you mention it, it would be nice for you to explain what you mean.
I consider it a discursive formation without which the world would be a better place.
So you say it's harmful and you saw better place without it. Please describe for me what you believe to be harmful about it and how the world would be better off without it.
Historically, the power/knowledge of gender has justified and sustained an indescribable array of injustices and inequalities (what might broadly be called “patriarchy”).
So you mean males have caused injustices. Maybe we should all just identify as female until the time of selection (whatever that means), and then 50% of the population could cross over. Pretty sure we'll still have war, bullying, power struggles, etc. But hey, those boys won't cause any wars in their first three years of life, so that's good.
I think you're hearing what you want to hear. I've spoken only of gender as a discourse (as power/knowledge); I've made no comments about any specific subjects exercising power within that discourse.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So here's where I get hung up... The metrics I have seen show that the number of trans is .6% of the population. There's probably an MOE in there, but still maybe 1% tops. It seems like a lot of effort and construction of your life for something that is very unlikely that they will identify with a gender different than their birth sex. And how do you know that there's no unintended consequences of that action, regarding the child's assimilation into the chosen gender? Perhaps they have trouble adapting and feel excluded in pre-K, etc.
As I’ve said briefly elsewhere in this thread, I believe that gender is harmful, as such. I have not emphasized that part of our motivation for fear it will chafe those here with different views.
Gender is harmful? Now that you mention it, it would be nice for you to explain what you mean.
I consider it a discursive formation without which the world would be a better place.
So you say it's harmful and you saw better place without it. Please describe for me what you believe to be harmful about it and how the world would be better off without it.
Historically, the power/knowledge of gender has justified and sustained an indescribable array of injustices and inequalities (what might broadly be called “patriarchy”).
So you mean males have caused injustices. Maybe we should all just identify as female until the time of selection (whatever that means), and then 50% of the population could cross over. Pretty sure we'll still have war, bullying, power struggles, etc. But hey, those boys won't cause any wars in their first three years of life, so that's good.
I think you're hearing what you want to hear. I've spoken only of gender as a discourse (as power/knowledge); I've made no comments about any specific subjects exercising power within that discourse.
You used the term patriarchy. How else would one interpret that comment than being an indictment of males for their injustice and inequalities. And for the record, you'll get no argument from me that men are the source of said ills in history. But I'm not sure how not identifying with a gender until the child decides will prevent the same from occurring.
I still don’t get the whole gender neutral thing. What is the purpose? Won’t a person transition either way?
Good question. The goal is to minimize the extent which they have to “transition.” Transitioning is very often a traumatic process. If no one was assigned a gender at birth, no one would have to transition. Trying to come as close to that for P as we can.
So you are assuming/predicting/guessing your child might transition?
Transition from what? They don’t currently have a gender identity.
So because you and your wife are being gender neutral it is your hope that they chose their own gender naturally?
Comments
Because I would like to learn how to more effectively speak to people on these boards, but I'm starting to get the sense it might just be a sort of free-for-all where all positions are treated equally. Teehee.
Thanks for the invitation.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Plus it might help with guilt, shame, shitty feelings like that. Parents can't help but have expectations and pass that along. I can see how it could make things easier for a child.
Personally, I'm raising my children as boys. I don't care if they have vaginas.
And as I also said, gendering my child would be intellectually dishonest: they don’t have a gender identity.