Nothing wrong with adding some cooperatively owned businesses, a flair of syndicalism etc to freshen things up.
Cooperative between what entities?
What do you mean?
You said cooperatively owned businesses. Are you referring to a public/private ownership, such as when the Obama administration bought millions of shares of GM? Or do you mean some sort of VC type government investment (which they do here in the States) or what?
I mean like the swedish supermarket chain "COOP", owned by its members/costumers:
Or the bank/insurance company "Länsförsäkringar", also owned by its members/customers:
Länsförsäkringar, or literally County Insurance, is a Swedish group of customer owned insurance companies. The group consists of 23 independent companies, one in each of the counties of Sweden (pre 1998 division), that cooperate under a common brand name. Länsförsäkringar Bank, is a bank which was started in the 1990s and is operated by the group.
A consumers' co-operative is an enterprise owned by consumers and managed democratically which aims at fulfilling the needs and aspirations of their members.[1] They operate within the market system, independently of the state, as a form of mutual aid, oriented toward service rather than pecuniary profit.[2] Consumers' cooperatives often take the form of retail outlets owned and operated by their consumers, such as food co-ops.[3] However, there are many types of consumers' cooperatives, operating in areas such as health care, insurance, housing, utilities and personal finance (including credit unions).
Or as another example, kindergardens that are owned/run by the parents.
Parent cooperatives are a form of operation between private and public, for schools, leisure homes and preschools. The opportunity for parents to run schools and day care centers with state or municipal grants became more common in Sweden during the 1980s.
During the 1980s, there was an extensive political debate about whether nurseries could be run in corporation/Stock company form, or only in the form of parent cooperatives
I like those, and it's similar to the GB Packers. There are utility cooperatives today (here's a list, there are close to a hundred in the US it seems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_utility_cooperatives) and also insurance cooperatives. When claims are lower than expected, it is paid back to the members. That's a very rough explanation, but they exist all over the country.
Yes. I get money back from Länsföräkringar (mentioned above) every year. And historically the supermarket COOP (mentioned above) has been better than the private moneypiling competitors when it comes to wages, employer terms, they were a lot quicker with bringing in eco- and vegetarian products etc. Because the members could directly affect the business. And the business could be run with other values than "increase profit".
I think it is a neat option for a business structure. One that is in its core more just and aren't all about stockholders and the top getting rich and fat. Not to sound like a Marx-reading college student.
So more of that in my society. And less communism and capitalistic greed.
I really like client co-op structures, and agree about the values enforcement side of things. If I start my own consulting firm though, I've long figured I'd probably do it employee-owned; client-owned just seems too difficult logistically to be worth it. Like you mentioned, the challenge is then figuring out how to assure a structure that promotes governance by a set of strong values and principles.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
150k family income a year isn't exactly rich if you live in an urban area.
This would be true. 150k ain’t shit.
It's a lot more than I make. Haha.
Well you're not married right? I actually think that this is the big difference where Millenials are 'falling behind' in the economic curve. I believe they are marrying later or not marrying at all, in a way that is much different than X's or Boomers. I bought my first house at 28, and I was married. I can assure you that I would have never been able to buy a house if I was single. Marriage and joint income creates the scale that really allows people to accelerate up the economic ladder. While I'm not advocating marrying for economic reasons, there is certainly an extra benefit financially to do so.
Swedes don't marry. We just live together. "Samboförhållande", as in living together but not married.
Samboförhållande are very common in the Nordic countries and in some other European countries. In 2016, more than half of all newborn children had unmarried parents, and in Sweden every year since 1993, more children have been born to unmarried parents than to married parents.
But yeah, obviously sharing rent and all costs related to living makes you financially more free. But you can also end up in hell.
Fair enough, but you guys do buy houses together, right? That's more my point, that joint income affords the ability to move up economically, and many Millenials are starting that process later in life, or not at all in the US.
Yes. People buy houses and flats.
What do you mean by "move up economically", just in the sense of having more money left after all the bills are paid, or in some other more intricate/specific economic theory-way?
Yes, having more disposable income. Obviously your utilities are essentially cut in half, automobile, gas, everything. You get better scale.
150k family income a year isn't exactly rich if you live in an urban area.
This would be true. 150k ain’t shit.
It's a lot more than I make. Haha.
Well you're not married right? I actually think that this is the big difference where Millenials are 'falling behind' in the economic curve. I believe they are marrying later or not marrying at all, in a way that is much different than X's or Boomers. I bought my first house at 28, and I was married. I can assure you that I would have never been able to buy a house if I was single. Marriage and joint income creates the scale that really allows people to accelerate up the economic ladder. While I'm not advocating marrying for economic reasons, there is certainly an extra benefit financially to do so.
Swedes don't marry. We just live together. "Samboförhållande", as in living together but not married.
Samboförhållande are very common in the Nordic countries and in some other European countries. In 2016, more than half of all newborn children had unmarried parents, and in Sweden every year since 1993, more children have been born to unmarried parents than to married parents.
But yeah, obviously sharing rent and all costs related to living makes you financially more free. But you can also end up in hell.
Fair enough, but you guys do buy houses together, right? That's more my point, that joint income affords the ability to move up economically, and many Millenials are starting that process later in life, or not at all in the US.
Yes. People buy houses and flats.
What do you mean by "move up economically", just in the sense of having more money left after all the bills are paid, or in some other more intricate/specific economic theory-way?
Yes, having more disposable income. Obviously your utilities are essentially cut in half, automobile, gas, everything. You get better scale.
This is why I need to tinder the shit out of my phone while queuing up for Pearl jam in the summer.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
150k family income a year isn't exactly rich if you live in an urban area.
This would be true. 150k ain’t shit.
It's a lot more than I make. Haha.
Well you're not married right? I actually think that this is the big difference where Millenials are 'falling behind' in the economic curve. I believe they are marrying later or not marrying at all, in a way that is much different than X's or Boomers. I bought my first house at 28, and I was married. I can assure you that I would have never been able to buy a house if I was single. Marriage and joint income creates the scale that really allows people to accelerate up the economic ladder. While I'm not advocating marrying for economic reasons, there is certainly an extra benefit financially to do so.
Swedes don't marry. We just live together. "Samboförhållande", as in living together but not married.
Samboförhållande are very common in the Nordic countries and in some other European countries. In 2016, more than half of all newborn children had unmarried parents, and in Sweden every year since 1993, more children have been born to unmarried parents than to married parents.
But yeah, obviously sharing rent and all costs related to living makes you financially more free. But you can also end up in hell.
Fair enough, but you guys do buy houses together, right? That's more my point, that joint income affords the ability to move up economically, and many Millenials are starting that process later in life, or not at all in the US.
Yes. People buy houses and flats.
What do you mean by "move up economically", just in the sense of having more money left after all the bills are paid, or in some other more intricate/specific economic theory-way?
Yes, having more disposable income. Obviously your utilities are essentially cut in half, automobile, gas, everything. You get better scale.
This is why I need to tinder the shit out of my phone while queuing up for Pearl jam in the summer.
Now just hang on a minute.. that's the ass end of the equation. Now you have to buy an extra ticket for your partner and such. Got to find that sweet middle. I had it for a long time, where my wife didn't like to go to shows so I would only have to buy for me. But then my son turned into a fanatic and now I'm screwed.
all you trying to nail down what’s enough and what’s ok for someone based on a number. You have no idea how anyone got there. It’s ducking sickening.
Don’t care how you got there.
I know. It’s weird what people care about. You just want to do whatever you want and take what you need from others to make up for your inabilities.
No one needs 150k a year. Don’t be so selfish.
Well I'm pretty sure that's not your call. What's the right number? In other words at what dollar amount do you currently fully send back to the government as voluntary tax?
all you trying to nail down what’s enough and what’s ok for someone based on a number. You have no idea how anyone got there. It’s ducking sickening.
Don’t care how you got there.
I know. It’s weird what people care about. You just want to do whatever you want and take what you need from others to make up for your inabilities.
No one needs 150k a year. Don’t be so selfish.
Well I'm pretty sure that's not your call. What's the right number? In other words at what dollar amount do you currently fully send back to the government as voluntary tax?
all you trying to nail down what’s enough and what’s ok for someone based on a number. You have no idea how anyone got there. It’s ducking sickening.
Don’t care how you got there.
I know. It’s weird what people care about. You just want to do whatever you want and take what you need from others to make up for your inabilities.
No one needs 150k a year. Don’t be so selfish.
Well I'm pretty sure that's not your call. What's the right number? In other words at what dollar amount do you currently fully send back to the government as voluntary tax?
all you trying to nail down what’s enough and what’s ok for someone based on a number. You have no idea how anyone got there. It’s ducking sickening.
Don’t care how you got there.
I know. It’s weird what people care about. You just want to do whatever you want and take what you need from others to make up for your inabilities.
No one needs 150k a year. Don’t be so selfish.
Well I'm pretty sure that's not your call. What's the right number? In other words at what dollar amount do you currently fully send back to the government as voluntary tax?
all you trying to nail down what’s enough and what’s ok for someone based on a number. You have no idea how anyone got there. It’s ducking sickening.
Don’t care how you got there.
I know. It’s weird what people care about. You just want to do whatever you want and take what you need from others to make up for your inabilities.
No one needs 150k a year. Don’t be so selfish.
Well I'm pretty sure that's not your call. What's the right number? In other words at what dollar amount do you currently fully send back to the government as voluntary tax?
You misapprehend my sense of right and wrong.
So it's only in theory, not practice?
I see you definitely misapprehend the practice.
I live by my principles. What am I misunderstanding about yours?
I'm not a huge fan of capitalism- I tend to lean more toward democratic socialism. But communism? I've never heard of or read about a communist state that sounded like anything I'd want to be a part of. And the communists I've met tended to be angry people with an axe to grind. No thanks.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
all you trying to nail down what’s enough and what’s ok for someone based on a number. You have no idea how anyone got there. It’s ducking sickening.
Don’t care how you got there.
I know. It’s weird what people care about. You just want to do whatever you want and take what you need from others to make up for your inabilities.
No one needs 150k a year. Don’t be so selfish.
Well I'm pretty sure that's not your call. What's the right number? In other words at what dollar amount do you currently fully send back to the government as voluntary tax?
You misapprehend my sense of right and wrong.
So it's only in theory, not practice?
seems he deals mostly in theory. excuse me , they......
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I'm not a huge fan of capitalism- I tend to lean more toward democratic socialism. But communism? I've never heard of or read about a communist state that sounded like anything I'd want to be a part of. And the communists I've met tended to be angry people with an axe to grind. No thanks.
Outside true Libertarians or crazy ass objectivism supporters, most people are essentially democratic socialists, even Republicans. The difference is to what degree does one believe the government should provide services. How deep does that go? Bernie goes very deep while most Republicans would lose most non civil services other than social security... because they would lose every election.
all you trying to nail down what’s enough and what’s ok for someone based on a number. You have no idea how anyone got there. It’s ducking sickening.
Don’t care how you got there.
I know. It’s weird what people care about. You just want to do whatever you want and take what you need from others to make up for your inabilities.
No one needs 150k a year. Don’t be so selfish.
Well I'm pretty sure that's not your call. What's the right number? In other words at what dollar amount do you currently fully send back to the government as voluntary tax?
I'm not a huge fan of capitalism- I tend to lean more toward democratic socialism. But communism? I've never heard of or read about a communist state that sounded like anything I'd want to be a part of. And the communists I've met tended to be angry people with an axe to grind. No thanks.
Outside true Libertarians or crazy ass objectivism supporters, most people are essentially democratic socialists, even Republicans. The difference is to what degree does one believe the government should provide services. How deep does that go? Bernie goes very deep while most Republicans would lose most non civil services other than social security... because they would lose every election.
I wish I had a better grasp of these concepts. Makes my head spin! I'd like to find a system that is based largely on common sense and is good for the planet and humanity. But I don't know, after all these years I don't think I've seen it yet.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I'm not a huge fan of capitalism- I tend to lean more toward democratic socialism. But communism? I've never heard of or read about a communist state that sounded like anything I'd want to be a part of. And the communists I've met tended to be angry people with an axe to grind. No thanks.
Outside true Libertarians or crazy ass objectivism supporters, most people are essentially democratic socialists, even Republicans. The difference is to what degree does one believe the government should provide services. How deep does that go? Bernie goes very deep while most Republicans would lose most non civil services other than social security... because they would lose every election.
I wish I had a better grasp of these concepts. Makes my head spin! I'd like to find a system that is based largely on common sense and is good for the planet and humanity. But I don't know, after all these years I don't think I've seen it yet.
Humans are flawed. Damn Eve with her apple. We were so close to an eternity of perfection.
I'm not a huge fan of capitalism- I tend to lean more toward democratic socialism. But communism? I've never heard of or read about a communist state that sounded like anything I'd want to be a part of. And the communists I've met tended to be angry people with an axe to grind. No thanks.
Outside true Libertarians or crazy ass objectivism supporters, most people are essentially democratic socialists, even Republicans. The difference is to what degree does one believe the government should provide services. How deep does that go? Bernie goes very deep while most Republicans would lose most non civil services other than social security... because they would lose every election.
I wish I had a better grasp of these concepts. Makes my head spin! I'd like to find a system that is based largely on common sense and is good for the planet and humanity. But I don't know, after all these years I don't think I've seen it yet.
Humans are flawed. Damn Eve with her apple. We were so close to an eternity of perfection.
So true, flawed we are. But here we are, crawling toward the lamp, looking for the light.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
all you trying to nail down what’s enough and what’s ok for someone based on a number. You have no idea how anyone got there. It’s ducking sickening.
Don’t care how you got there.
I know. It’s weird what people care about. You just want to do whatever you want and take what you need from others to make up for your inabilities.
No one needs 150k a year. Don’t be so selfish.
Who are you to be the arbiter of what an individual needs without knowing their liabilities or circumstances? FWIW, I hope to earn more than that in my lifetime, and I'll do so with hard work and without guilt.
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Comments
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I wish I had a better grasp of these concepts. Makes my head spin! I'd like to find a system that is based largely on common sense and is good for the planet and humanity. But I don't know, after all these years I don't think I've seen it yet.
So true, flawed we are. But here we are, crawling toward the lamp, looking for the light.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1