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The Democratic Presidential Debates

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  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499
    edited February 2020
    YANG: Computers are taking over, and we need to prepare our society and workforce for that change.

    SANDERS: I do not know that much about those computer-things the kids play with. But I do agree. It is our big challenge.

    PETE: The future is challenges. But the past is an arc and it bends towards the future. If we not let it define us.

    BLOOMBERG: "You know why computers will never take the place of people? Because a computer would say that the sex of the person giving you a blow job doesn't matter!"

    https://www.businessinsider.com/michael-bloombergs-employees-created-a-book-purportedly-offensive-quotes?r=US&IR=T
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • OnWis97OnWis97 Posts: 5,103
    mcgruff10 said:
    A cool little op ed from a professor at my alma mater:

    Sanders’ and Trump’ supporters have something in common | Opinion

    https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/02/sanders-and-trump-supporters-have-a-lot-in-common.html
    Unfortunately, the thing they don’t have in common is numbers.  Trump’s supporters are 40% of the country.  Bernie’s are probably 5%. Maybe 10.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,509
    OnWis97 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    A cool little op ed from a professor at my alma mater:

    Sanders’ and Trump’ supporters have something in common | Opinion

    https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/02/sanders-and-trump-supporters-have-a-lot-in-common.html
    Unfortunately, the thing they don’t have in common is numbers.  Trump’s supporters are 40% of the country.  Bernie’s are probably 5%. Maybe 10.
    40% of those who voted. some 43% chose not to.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,509
    ^^^^ would love polling as to why.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499

    Full Biden: I would be 'most progressive' president in history

    https://youtu.be/uOYcXsIKoyg

    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,509
      AOC lowers expectations on Medicare for All, admitting Sanders 'can't wave a magic wand' to pass it
    https://news.yahoo.com/aoc-lowers-expectations-on-medicare-for-all-admitting-sanders-cant-wave-a-magic-wand-to-pass-it-212943695.html

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 38,969
    Bernie’s got issues. And opposition. Gonna dismiss them? Or are they a “political movement?”

    https://apple.news/AYzWUGnC8QZSZ_8LTeS7aHQ
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499
    edited February 2020
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    Bernie’s got issues. And opposition. Gonna dismiss them? Or are they a “political movement?”

    https://apple.news/AYzWUGnC8QZSZ_8LTeS7aHQ
    I bet the Amy Army is behind that. Very similiar to Trump. Gonna have to write an op-ed about how similar they are. 

    DAMN YOU AMY! STAY AWAY FROM BERNIE AND TREAT HIM AS FLYOVER COUNTRY!

    (One should not support the dairy industry, if possible)



    By the way:


    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499
    edited February 2020
    If thinking about disparaging John Oliver for having an opinion, just know that he is an american citizen now and is eligible to vote in your elections:

    https://youtu.be/7Z2XRg3dy9k

    "The american healthcare system gives you so many choices as to how you want to get fucked. It truly is the kamasutra of healthcare"




    He believes in universal healthcare, and thinks the UK system is far better than the US and something similar should be implemented.

    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 38,969
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    Bernie’s got issues. And opposition. Gonna dismiss them? Or are they a “political movement?”

    https://apple.news/AYzWUGnC8QZSZ_8LTeS7aHQ
    I bet the Amy Army is behind that. Very similiar to Trump. Gonna have to write an op-ed about how similar they are. 

    DAMN YOU AMY! STAY AWAY FROM BERNIE AND TREAT HIM AS FLYOVER COUNTRY!

    (One should not support the dairy industry, if possible)



    By the way:


    Well, ‘Muricans are pretty dumb, not being able to add or subtract so that they need differentials included plus, they still drink milk. But hey! Did you see that big aeorplane fly by all of those out of shape white people? And then the beast go around? And then plasticfantastic? Holy fuck, bring on my death man for I have surely lived!

    My money is on #queersagainstpete for their movement, gaining momentum.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 38,969
    Here’s what Bernie gets, in overwhelming electoral votes: Slovenliness is back in fashion. Is Team Trump Treason’s diaper weighing down his pants or is he just a slob? Sharts alive!


    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,619
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    Here’s what Bernie gets, in overwhelming electoral votes: Slovenliness is back in fashion. Is Team Trump Treason’s diaper weighing down his pants or is he just a slob? Sharts alive!





    You forgot the lyrics-

    God bless The Democrats, party that I love
    Stand beside them and guide the
    Through the night with the light to deliver me Sanders 

    From the mountains to the prairies
    All who hate socialism are withe ME
    God bless America, my home sweet home
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,509
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    Bernie’s got issues. And opposition. Gonna dismiss them? Or are they a “political movement?”

    https://apple.news/AYzWUGnC8QZSZ_8LTeS7aHQ
    I bet the Amy Army is behind that. Very similiar to Trump. Gonna have to write an op-ed about how similar they are. 

    DAMN YOU AMY! STAY AWAY FROM BERNIE AND TREAT HIM AS FLYOVER COUNTRY!

    (One should not support the dairy industry, if possible)



    By the way:


    Bernie gonna  stop supporting the dairy industry in Vermont? His adopted home state? The folks and businesses he should be advocating for as their Elected Senator?

    Ben and Jerrys Ice Cream. Major employer.

    Vermont Cheese.....


    so yeah. lets kill or stop support of dairy..
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499
    mickeyrat said:
    so yeah. lets kill or stop support of dairy..
    Yes.


    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499

    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499
    edited February 2020
    Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., has for years cast his opposition to the Iraq War as near-absolute, but a review into his record shows that his position wasn't as absolute as he claims. Heidi Przybyla discusses her reporting.

    https://youtu.be/KOG9P2bmOpA
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499

    For people saying Bernie doesn't get things done:





    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • RoleModelsinBlood31RoleModelsinBlood31 Posts: 6,155
    Here we go again!!! Love it!!  Who doesn’t love a good corrupt DNC dumpster fire over and over again?

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/16/nevada-avoid-iowa-caucus-mess-115437

    Has anyone heard of the snafu that’s happening in Nevada?  I thought the left were supposed to be technology heroes?  Hilarious, it’s seriously so messed up.  Where is Shadow anyway while their garbage apps don’t work?  They just want to rig the system for whoever the dnc want... as San Fran Nan said “it’s too dangerous to allow the voters to decide!”



    I'm like an opening band for your mom.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,658
    edited February 2020
    RoleModelsinBlood31 said:
    Here we go again!!! Love it!!  Who doesn’t love a good corrupt DNC dumpster fire over and over again?

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/16/nevada-avoid-iowa-caucus-mess-115437

    Has anyone heard of the snafu that’s happening in Nevada?  I thought the left were supposed to be technology heroes?  Hilarious, it’s seriously so messed up.  Where is Shadow anyway while their garbage apps don’t work?  They just want to rig the system for whoever the dnc want... as San Fran Nan said “it’s too dangerous to allow the voters to decide!”



    Okay, keeping score here.  I'm now terrible at technology and I don't care about people.  Are there any other generalizations you can make about 46 million people?  Do I kick puppies too?  Why are your conclusions so fucking moronic?
    *Edit, note that I didn't ask why the Right's conclusions are moronic... I'm asking about your idiotic conclusions.  See the difference?
    Post edited by mrussel1 on
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499
    edited February 2020


    Why does Chuck Todd shake and stutter of irritation whenever he covers Bernie Sanders? He even interrupts pundits to point out false things about the man. I get that it's cable news and there are no rules and regulations. But what the hell. 
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,658
    Spiritual_Chaos said:


    Why does Chuck Todd shake and stutter of irritation whenever he covers Bernie Sanders? He even interrupts pundits to point out false things about the man. I get that it's cable news and there are no rules and regulations. But what the hell. 
    I like you, so I'm going to help you out here.  These are not apple to apple comparisons.  The chart on the left are ACTUAL voting results.  This means 100% accurate for who has voted.  The one on the left is polling, which uses statistical analysis and allows undecideds.  You don't have undecideds after voting.  So the comparison is useless.  Second, did you point out the "likes" as if that's relevant to accuracy, or was it the twit?
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499
    edited February 2020
    mrussel1 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:


    Why does Chuck Todd shake and stutter of irritation whenever he covers Bernie Sanders? He even interrupts pundits to point out false things about the man. I get that it's cable news and there are no rules and regulations. But what the hell. 
    I like you, so I'm going to help you out here.  These are not apple to apple comparisons.  The chart on the left are ACTUAL voting results.  This means 100% accurate for who has voted.  The one on the left is polling, which uses statistical analysis and allows undecideds.  You don't have undecideds after voting.  So the comparison is useless.  Second, did you point out the "likes" as if that's relevant to accuracy, or was it the twit?
    I just posted the tweet. That had both the images in it. I don't know how to link a "string of tweets" on here.

    If you ask me if I drew the circles and arrows, then... You can't draw on a tweet. i would have to screenshot it and draw on it. And then it would be an image, and not a linked tweet...
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499
    The Swedish Social Democrats is such an embarrassing party




    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499
    Bernie is as overpowered as Metal Man in Mega Man 2.


    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499

    MLK & Bernie Sanders vs Donald Trump | “Revolution of Values”

    https://youtu.be/sjmT-zx4nyI

    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,499

    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 38,969
    Woot, woot!

    https://www.newsweek.com/voters-democratic-socialist-widespread-support-bernie-sanders-1487602
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,658
    Ugh
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,619
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Bernie is as overpowered as Metal Man in Mega Man 2.



    That’s a series of hypothetical head to head polls . IMO if respondents are being asked to give up on their preferred choice, there is a good chance they will pick the front runner, so “their vote matters most.” But that’s not the way it works IRL. Bernies gains in national polling can be directly correlated to Warrens decline. Is it coincidence that they were the only M4A candidates getting any attention in the polls?
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 41,977
    I seldom watch TV but did for a while today.  The media and money influence on election as seen on TV is a joke.  After a while, I'd had enough and turn the damned thing off.  Man, oh man, what a crock.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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