The Democratic Presidential Debates

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  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    Ill retract a piece... the BLM protest is in the same ballpark as civil rights but certainly fractionally.  Either way, the point of a protest should be, at the end of the day, effectuate change.  And that change needs to convince the people that are ambivalent.  There are more effective ways than blocking interstates, which effectively removes support.
    Awesome. Let's see if we can get you some speaking gigs with on-the-ground protest movements. I'm sure they'd benefit from your expertise. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 16,612
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Ill retract a piece... the BLM protest is in the same ballpark as civil rights but certainly fractionally.  Either way, the point of a protest should be, at the end of the day, effectuate change.  And that change needs to convince the people that are ambivalent.  There are more effective ways than blocking interstates, which effectively removes support.
    Awesome. Let's see if we can get you some speaking gigs with on-the-ground protest movements. I'm sure they'd benefit from your expertise. 
    So you think, logically, that blocking an interstate creates advocates among those sitting in the traffic jam?
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Ill retract a piece... the BLM protest is in the same ballpark as civil rights but certainly fractionally.  Either way, the point of a protest should be, at the end of the day, effectuate change.  And that change needs to convince the people that are ambivalent.  There are more effective ways than blocking interstates, which effectively removes support.
    Awesome. Let's see if we can get you some speaking gigs with on-the-ground protest movements. I'm sure they'd benefit from your expertise. 
    So you think, logically, that blocking an interstate creates advocates among those sitting in the traffic jam?
    I think you misunderstand the nature of protest, and I think you have a disturbingly disjunctive view of past protests vs. current protests. 

  • "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 16,612
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Ill retract a piece... the BLM protest is in the same ballpark as civil rights but certainly fractionally.  Either way, the point of a protest should be, at the end of the day, effectuate change.  And that change needs to convince the people that are ambivalent.  There are more effective ways than blocking interstates, which effectively removes support.
    Awesome. Let's see if we can get you some speaking gigs with on-the-ground protest movements. I'm sure they'd benefit from your expertise. 
    So you think, logically, that blocking an interstate creates advocates among those sitting in the traffic jam?
    I think you misunderstand the nature of protest, and I think you have a disturbingly disjunctive view of past protests vs. current protests. 
    I've studied the 60s quite a bit,  so I have an understanding of protests that can point to successes and how middle America came around to the Civil Rights movement.  And it wasn't by blocking interstates and trashing the streets of San Jose.  Either way,  it's totally off point as usual.  The point is that these protests against Pete amount to little electorally 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Ill retract a piece... the BLM protest is in the same ballpark as civil rights but certainly fractionally.  Either way, the point of a protest should be, at the end of the day, effectuate change.  And that change needs to convince the people that are ambivalent.  There are more effective ways than blocking interstates, which effectively removes support.
    Awesome. Let's see if we can get you some speaking gigs with on-the-ground protest movements. I'm sure they'd benefit from your expertise. 
    So you think, logically, that blocking an interstate creates advocates among those sitting in the traffic jam?
    I think you misunderstand the nature of protest, and I think you have a disturbingly disjunctive view of past protests vs. current protests. 
    I've studied the 60s quite a bit,  so I have an understanding of protests that can point to successes and how middle America came around to the Civil Rights movement.  And it wasn't by blocking interstates and trashing the streets of San Jose.  Either way,  it's totally off point as usual.  The point is that these protests against Pete amount to little electorally 
    Right. I forgot the only thing that matters is the 2020 presidential election and the moderates who will determine it!
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 16,612
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Ill retract a piece... the BLM protest is in the same ballpark as civil rights but certainly fractionally.  Either way, the point of a protest should be, at the end of the day, effectuate change.  And that change needs to convince the people that are ambivalent.  There are more effective ways than blocking interstates, which effectively removes support.
    Awesome. Let's see if we can get you some speaking gigs with on-the-ground protest movements. I'm sure they'd benefit from your expertise. 
    So you think, logically, that blocking an interstate creates advocates among those sitting in the traffic jam?
    I think you misunderstand the nature of protest, and I think you have a disturbingly disjunctive view of past protests vs. current protests. 
    I've studied the 60s quite a bit,  so I have an understanding of protests that can point to successes and how middle America came around to the Civil Rights movement.  And it wasn't by blocking interstates and trashing the streets of San Jose.  Either way,  it's totally off point as usual.  The point is that these protests against Pete amount to little electorally 
    Right. I forgot the only thing that matters is the 2020 presidential election and the moderates who will determine it!
    Yeah try not to forget again.  
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 5,391
    dignin said:
    dignin said:
    pjl44 said:
    Bloomberg doesn't speak as coarsely as Trump and he has the vaunted D after his name, but I'd argue we're dealing with the same core personality concerns:

    Authoritarian tendencies
    Deference to authoritarian regimes
    Racist policies
    Sexism
    Yes. Every video that is being released, every audio recording, every article shows a vile, disgusting person.
    No, not even close to as bad as Trump.
    The same "core personality concerns" =/= being "close to as bad"
    You look at their records by any objective measure Trump is worse.

    And that really shouldn't be considered a defence of Bloomberg and more of a statement of how bad Trump is.

    I don't like Bloomberg, would be my last choice in the current field, but if I could would hit the streets in support of him vs. Trump. If I could.
    What is the most racist policy Trump has had enacted? The Muslim travel ban? Is stop-and-frisk not at least that bad? Especially when you hear Bloomberg's own words in defense of it?
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 5,391
    The more I think about it, the more illuminating this Bloomberg candidacy is. Do anti-Trump folks actually care about having a President who is racist, sexist, and wants to be king? Or is it more about sticking it to Trump specifically because he is a colossal asshole?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 16,612
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    Regarding the "improve the plank" comment... Have medicare as an option on the exchanges and also an option to be provided by employers. Expand the rebates to make it affordable for everyone. 

    But as I said above if we go too far left we risk a conservative court til 2055 and we have a better chance to live in Neil Peart's opus than seeing any govt assisted plan for all for the majority of this century.
    But you're forgetting the argument that if the democrats don't go farther left they won't win. Maybe putting up Biden will guarantee another 4 more years of Trump, 2016 all over again. The street runs both ways.

    The fact is most voters vote based on feelings more so than issues. If they have the right feeling about a candidate they will vote for them. Just look at voters second choices, they are all over the map. The same way Bernie Bros can turn around and vote for Trump.

    The point is, you may be right and Biden is the right guy for this time or you could be wrong and someone like Bernie is the right guy to beat Trump. Who the fuck knows at this point. Biden personally worries me because he isn't a good candidate. He is old, acts old, and really doesn't motivate anyone. Hasn't looked good on the campaign trail and in the debates. 


    Democratic voters definitely need those feeling. GOP voters? All they need to hear is you'll protect their guns and give them their abortion judges and every single one of them are showing up. Even to vote for a rapist. Or who thinks rape is a joke 

    Bottom line about hillary, she was a Dukakis level candidate. She had no business being the nominee and rose thru the ranks largely on the merits of what her husband accomplished and being a carpet bagger 


    Except she got elected to the Senate and testified before a hostile repub House committee as Secretary of State for 14 and 12 hours respectively, I think, regarding Benghazi and hasn't declared bankruptcy, divorced her husband, sexually assaulted anyone, is a Yale law school grad and released 20 years of her tax returns. She had every business being the nominee as opposed to the current POS in the White House being his party's nominee.

    Had she not been first lady, would she have been able to  carpet bag into my home state to become senator, or did being first lady help her out?

    Without her name recognition due to the underdog success of her husband, out of nowhere, would she have ever been able to ascend to the top democrat in the entire country? What are the odds of any successful lawyer living in Arkansas  being able to achieve that? 
    This assumes Hillary's life began with her husband in Arkansas. It didn't. There is no telling what she would have accomplished had she made different choices. She didn't. Had she made a different choice, I'm absolutely certain she would have had as remarkable a career anywhere, and could indeed have become your senator much sooner than she had under a different name. There is no telling. And I'm not sure why we have to constantly explain away her success. She ran for President. She lost. Why are we still in the tear down Hillary discussion?  Four years ago, we had a candidate who could have beaten Trump had a small percentage of voters in a small handful of precincts in a small number of states decide to vote. That's how Clinton lost. The tear-down Hillary faction is still at it with their misrepresentation of the facts of the 2016 election. I don't understand why this is relevant or even productive as we figure out how to win 2020 -- except to say the nominee better spend every week in Michigan, Ohio, Florida, and Pennsylvania. Which of the candidates currently running is faring any better, minus the punching bag that was aimed at Hillary's face every minute of her public life. Which man would tolerate and survive the scrutiny she has survived? 
    Bravo.  Totally agree.  Hillary is an amazing woman who had an amazing career.  Yale law and Nixon prosecution is no joke. She was extremely successful for anyone,  let alone a young woman in the 70s.
    And the 80’s, 90’s, 00’s, ‘10’s and now ‘20’s. Team Trump Treason’s successes over those decades? Yea right. And Bernie’s white privilege, yo! 
    Agreed. I was countering the point that she rode Bills coattails.  She was on her way on her own.  In fact, I would bet she was the driving political force behind Bill.  No way that dude could stay on target without a strong woman.
  • "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • dignindignin Posts: 8,067
    pjl44 said:
    The more I think about it, the more illuminating this Bloomberg candidacy is. Do anti-Trump folks actually care about having a President who is racist, sexist, and wants to be king? Or is it more about sticking it to Trump specifically because he is a colossal asshole?
    Did Bloomberg take out ads calling for the death penalty of innocent kids? Has Bloomberg been credibly accused of rape and sexual assault by dozens of women? Did Bloomberg brag about grabbing women by the pussy? Watch teen girls getting dressed? Has Bloomberg locked kids in cages? Called mexicans criminals and rapists? Has he been impeached? Tried to strong arm foreign nations for dirt on political opponents? Pardon his criminal friends? Illegally pay off porn stars? Pardon war criminals? Undermine the FBI, CIA and corrupt the DOJ.

    This shit is just the tip of the iceberg. Like I said, go through the Trump thread, it's all there.

    No, it's not just because he's a colossal asshole or because he's a republican. That's nonsense.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 36,141

    She's fantastic
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 36,141
    edited February 15
    dignin said:
    dignin said:
    pjl44 said:
    Bloomberg doesn't speak as coarsely as Trump and he has the vaunted D after his name, but I'd argue we're dealing with the same core personality concerns:

    Authoritarian tendencies
    Deference to authoritarian regimes
    Racist policies
    Sexism
    Yes. Every video that is being released, every audio recording, every article shows a vile, disgusting person.
    No, not even close to as bad as Trump.
    The same "core personality concerns" =/= being "close to as bad"
    You look at their records by any objective measure Trump is worse.

    And that really shouldn't be considered a defence of Bloomberg and more of a statement of how bad Trump is.

    I don't like Bloomberg, would be my last choice in the current field, but if I could would hit the streets in support of him vs. Trump. If I could.
    Asinine to say Bloomberg is similar to Trump. The Bernie bros are getting scared...
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 16,612

    She's fantastic
    If anyone types "Klomentum", they need to be banned. 
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 5,391
    dignin said:
    pjl44 said:
    The more I think about it, the more illuminating this Bloomberg candidacy is. Do anti-Trump folks actually care about having a President who is racist, sexist, and wants to be king? Or is it more about sticking it to Trump specifically because he is a colossal asshole?
    Did Bloomberg take out ads calling for the death penalty of innocent kids? Has Bloomberg been credibly accused of rape and sexual assault by dozens of women? Did Bloomberg brag about grabbing women by the pussy? Watch teen girls getting dressed? Has Bloomberg locked kids in cages? Called mexicans criminals and rapists? Has he been impeached? Tried to strong arm foreign nations for dirt on political opponents? Pardon his criminal friends? Illegally pay off porn stars? Pardon war criminals? Undermine the FBI, CIA and corrupt the DOJ.

    This shit is just the tip of the iceberg. Like I said, go through the Trump thread, it's all there.

    No, it's not just because he's a colossal asshole or because he's a republican. That's nonsense.
    All of this is true and I'm saying you're ignoring how close Bloomberg is. You can read back in this thread for videos of his racist words and quotes in defense of China. We talked about his lobbying to have NY law changed allowing him to run for a third term (and having it changed back after he won).

    NY Times on how he has bought off dissent:
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/02/15/us/politics/michael-bloomberg-spending.html

    Washington Post has the sexism covered:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/michael-bloomberg-women/

    The issues need to matter on their own, not just through the lens of Trump.
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 19,724
    edited February 15
    dignin said:
    dignin said:
    pjl44 said:
    Bloomberg doesn't speak as coarsely as Trump and he has the vaunted D after his name, but I'd argue we're dealing with the same core personality concerns:

    Authoritarian tendencies
    Deference to authoritarian regimes
    Racist policies
    Sexism
    Yes. Every video that is being released, every audio recording, every article shows a vile, disgusting person.
    No, not even close to as bad as Trump.
    The same "core personality concerns" =/= being "close to as bad"
    You look at their records by any objective measure Trump is worse.

    And that really shouldn't be considered a defence of Bloomberg and more of a statement of how bad Trump is.

    I don't like Bloomberg, would be my last choice in the current field, but if I could would hit the streets in support of him vs. Trump. If I could.
    Asinine to say Bloomberg is similar to Trump. The Bernie bros are getting scared...
    Start reading up on Bloomberg. He is def a piece of shit. Trump is also a piece of shit. So not asinine saying they are similar. Similiar doesn't mean they are the same.

    Bernie Bros getting scared? Why are you choosing to put it like that(?) -- Are you proud or pro hat Bloomberg is a valid option or what? Lol if that's the case.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    dignin said:
    pjl44 said:
    The more I think about it, the more illuminating this Bloomberg candidacy is. Do anti-Trump folks actually care about having a President who is racist, sexist, and wants to be king? Or is it more about sticking it to Trump specifically because he is a colossal asshole?
    Did Bloomberg take out ads calling for the death penalty of innocent kids? Has Bloomberg been credibly accused of rape and sexual assault by dozens of women? Did Bloomberg brag about grabbing women by the pussy? Watch teen girls getting dressed? Has Bloomberg locked kids in cages? Called mexicans criminals and rapists? Has he been impeached? Tried to strong arm foreign nations for dirt on political opponents? Pardon his criminal friends? Illegally pay off porn stars? Pardon war criminals? Undermine the FBI, CIA and corrupt the DOJ.

    This shit is just the tip of the iceberg. Like I said, go through the Trump thread, it's all there.

    No, it's not just because he's a colossal asshole or because he's a republican. That's nonsense.
    Black kids, yes. Not Mexicans, but Black Americans. 
  • Katie Couric says that Bloomberg has hired an expert on narcissism and put that person together with a comedy writer, to get to Trump. Haha.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    A thought experiment: imagine the election was Trump v. Someone you personally think is worse than Trump (an almost unfathomable monster). Would you vote for Trump?
  • ecdanc said:
    A thought experiment: imagine the election was Trump v. Someone you personally think is worse than Trump (an almost unfathomable monster). Would you vote for Trump?
    Are you saying Trump is not an almost unfathomable monster?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    ecdanc said:
    A thought experiment: imagine the election was Trump v. Someone you personally think is worse than Trump (an almost unfathomable monster). Would you vote for Trump?
    Are you saying Trump is not an almost unfathomable monster?
    I find Trump infinitely fathomable. But don’t distract the others!!
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 16,612
    ecdanc said:
    A thought experiment: imagine the election was Trump v. Someone you personally think is worse than Trump (an almost unfathomable monster). Would you vote for Trump?
    It's a difficult question because as much as I'm against his policies,  his moral turpitude is worse.  If Trump was still a Democrat, with this exact level of dishonesty,  divisiveness,  etc., and he ran against Romney or Kasich, I would vote Republican in a second. 
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 5,391
    ecdanc said:
    A thought experiment: imagine the election was Trump v. Someone you personally think is worse than Trump (an almost unfathomable monster). Would you vote for Trump?
    You're not gonna get someone to renounce their religion on the record

  • "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,627
    ecdanc said:
    A thought experiment: imagine the election was Trump v. Someone you personally think is worse than Trump (an almost unfathomable monster). Would you vote for Trump?
    Yes, I would.  It's hard to imagine a candidate that bad, though.
    Why do you ask?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 16,612
    pjl44 said:
    ecdanc said:
    A thought experiment: imagine the election was Trump v. Someone you personally think is worse than Trump (an almost unfathomable monster). Would you vote for Trump?
    You're not gonna get someone to renounce their religion on the record
    I just did. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    ecdanc said:
    A thought experiment: imagine the election was Trump v. Someone you personally think is worse than Trump (an almost unfathomable monster). Would you vote for Trump?
    It's a difficult question because as much as I'm against his policies,  his moral turpitude is worse.  If Trump was still a Democrat, with this exact level of dishonesty,  divisiveness,  etc., and he ran against Romney or Kasich, I would vote Republican in a second. 
    And if it were Trump v. Stalin?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,627
    I will always vote for the lesser of two evils because I live firmly rooted in reality.  Even when I'm baked my head isn't in some utopian cloud where the answer to question of Trump or Clinton is Stein.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
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