Gender neutral student demands

HughFreakingDillon · August 2019

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

dankind said:

bbiggs said:

dankind said:

bbiggs said:

OnWis97 said:

A few thoughts on "they"
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.

I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.

I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.

Don't worry about it.

Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.

We're in this thing together.

Good points and agreed. I still do have genuine interest in knowing what the proper way to speak in 2019 is though. I know my way of saying “he or she” was grammatically correct at one point (maybe still is?), but it seems that it is no longer correct (politically?). Not being a smart ass. Just wondering what is deemed appropriate these days and I haven’t seen a consensus or definitive answer. I guess “they” is the temporary winner.

I'd say that at least 70% of the useful things I've learned so far in this life -- that is, things that have actually stuck with me -- were because I fucked up initially.

We have our pronouns in our email signatures at my office. I have disabled my email signature because I'm someone who doesn't care about that personally for myself. As I mentioned, Flower is my spirit animal. And I can sign my own damn name if I feel like it.

But I can certainly understand why identity is important to a great many people in the current climate. We've had a few office- or department-wide emails go around just to help everyone pronounce certain coworkers' names. The emails were sent by the individuals who have those names, and they explained how their names were very important to them, their families and significant to their religious and/or cultural heritage. They welcomed people to stop by their desks and ask them how to pronounce their names and have a conversation about it. One of the senders sits near me, and she has had quite a few people stop by and engage with her. And yeah, I fucked up her name for a while, too.

I really wish my workplace was that progressive and open. we have so many people whose names no one can fucking pronounce, and we're expected to just figure it out.

Have you ever had someone be offended by asking them how to pronounce? I ask out of genuine curiosity and goodwill and it has, fortunately, always been met with a lovely conversation.

So many people have a weird and ignorant fear of pronouncing words outside of the English accent here in American.
We anglicize every word and place to a shocking degree.
I'm sure I've told this story here, but my best friend is a Brazilian named Ricardo.
Portuguese pronunciation is Heecarrdo.
He introduces himself with his natural, given name, and every other dumb motherfucker he's ever met in America acted confused at Heecarrdo and changed it to Ricardo. Not even R"ee"cardo, but Rick-ardo. Even his host family, 15 years later, still calling him Rick-ardo.
I met a boy who introduced himself as Heecarrdo, I said "Heecarrdo, did I say that right?" and he looked at me like I was Albert Fucking Einstein for getting it right lol

I'm not sure that I have, to be honest with you. I've sometimes quietly asked others how to pronounce it, if they weren't introduced to me personally, but through an email announcing their hire. I honestly have been timid of offending.

I also find it odd that so many people with "different" names just take on anglo names. A guy I work with, Jatinder, goes by Jack instead. I guess it's just easier so as to avoid the "how do you pronounce that?" conversation I mentioned being afraid of having.

Do north americans change their first names to local dialects when they move to a place like India? doubt it.

I doubt it as well. I'm sad that it's a Canadian thing too.
It's honestly a pet peeve for me, majorly irritating.
I was almost 30 years old before I learned there is no place called Florence in Italy.
Why the fuck can't it just be Firenze? Why do we have to hillbillify everything?

I was today years old when I found out there's no place called Florence in Italy.

Your entire world geography lesson was a lie lol
Florence is Firenze, Vienna is Wien (Veen), Germany is Deutschland and German is Deutsche (doy-cheh), Paris is pronounced pah-ree, Venice is actually Venezia...the list goes on and on.
To be fair though, within Europe they don't have standard names for places either, pretty sure Italians call Paris Parigia...still much closer than Pair-us.

Side note, "I was today years old when I learned" is maybe my favorite internet-age phrase.

I was always pronounced that as douche-land.

pearljammr78 · August 2019

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

dankind said:

bbiggs said:

dankind said:

bbiggs said:

OnWis97 said:

A few thoughts on "they"
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.

I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.

I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.

Don't worry about it.

Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.

We're in this thing together.

Good points and agreed. I still do have genuine interest in knowing what the proper way to speak in 2019 is though. I know my way of saying “he or she” was grammatically correct at one point (maybe still is?), but it seems that it is no longer correct (politically?). Not being a smart ass. Just wondering what is deemed appropriate these days and I haven’t seen a consensus or definitive answer. I guess “they” is the temporary winner.

I'd say that at least 70% of the useful things I've learned so far in this life -- that is, things that have actually stuck with me -- were because I fucked up initially.

We have our pronouns in our email signatures at my office. I have disabled my email signature because I'm someone who doesn't care about that personally for myself. As I mentioned, Flower is my spirit animal. And I can sign my own damn name if I feel like it.

But I can certainly understand why identity is important to a great many people in the current climate. We've had a few office- or department-wide emails go around just to help everyone pronounce certain coworkers' names. The emails were sent by the individuals who have those names, and they explained how their names were very important to them, their families and significant to their religious and/or cultural heritage. They welcomed people to stop by their desks and ask them how to pronounce their names and have a conversation about it. One of the senders sits near me, and she has had quite a few people stop by and engage with her. And yeah, I fucked up her name for a while, too.

I really wish my workplace was that progressive and open. we have so many people whose names no one can fucking pronounce, and we're expected to just figure it out.

Have you ever had someone be offended by asking them how to pronounce? I ask out of genuine curiosity and goodwill and it has, fortunately, always been met with a lovely conversation.

So many people have a weird and ignorant fear of pronouncing words outside of the English accent here in American.
We anglicize every word and place to a shocking degree.
I'm sure I've told this story here, but my best friend is a Brazilian named Ricardo.
Portuguese pronunciation is Heecarrdo.
He introduces himself with his natural, given name, and every other dumb motherfucker he's ever met in America acted confused at Heecarrdo and changed it to Ricardo. Not even R"ee"cardo, but Rick-ardo. Even his host family, 15 years later, still calling him Rick-ardo.
I met a boy who introduced himself as Heecarrdo, I said "Heecarrdo, did I say that right?" and he looked at me like I was Albert Fucking Einstein for getting it right lol

I'm not sure that I have, to be honest with you. I've sometimes quietly asked others how to pronounce it, if they weren't introduced to me personally, but through an email announcing their hire. I honestly have been timid of offending.

I also find it odd that so many people with "different" names just take on anglo names. A guy I work with, Jatinder, goes by Jack instead. I guess it's just easier so as to avoid the "how do you pronounce that?" conversation I mentioned being afraid of having.

Do north americans change their first names to local dialects when they move to a place like India? doubt it.

I doubt it as well. I'm sad that it's a Canadian thing too.
It's honestly a pet peeve for me, majorly irritating.
I was almost 30 years old before I learned there is no place called Florence in Italy.
Why the fuck can't it just be Firenze? Why do we have to hillbillify everything?

I was today years old when I found out there's no place called Florence in Italy.

Me too. Happy birthday!!

brianlux · August 2019

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

dankind said:

bbiggs said:

dankind said:

bbiggs said:

OnWis97 said:

A few thoughts on "they"
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.

I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.

I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.

Don't worry about it.

Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.

We're in this thing together.

Good points and agreed. I still do have genuine interest in knowing what the proper way to speak in 2019 is though. I know my way of saying “he or she” was grammatically correct at one point (maybe still is?), but it seems that it is no longer correct (politically?). Not being a smart ass. Just wondering what is deemed appropriate these days and I haven’t seen a consensus or definitive answer. I guess “they” is the temporary winner.

I'd say that at least 70% of the useful things I've learned so far in this life -- that is, things that have actually stuck with me -- were because I fucked up initially.

We have our pronouns in our email signatures at my office. I have disabled my email signature because I'm someone who doesn't care about that personally for myself. As I mentioned, Flower is my spirit animal. And I can sign my own damn name if I feel like it.

But I can certainly understand why identity is important to a great many people in the current climate. We've had a few office- or department-wide emails go around just to help everyone pronounce certain coworkers' names. The emails were sent by the individuals who have those names, and they explained how their names were very important to them, their families and significant to their religious and/or cultural heritage. They welcomed people to stop by their desks and ask them how to pronounce their names and have a conversation about it. One of the senders sits near me, and she has had quite a few people stop by and engage with her. And yeah, I fucked up her name for a while, too.

I really wish my workplace was that progressive and open. we have so many people whose names no one can fucking pronounce, and we're expected to just figure it out.

Have you ever had someone be offended by asking them how to pronounce? I ask out of genuine curiosity and goodwill and it has, fortunately, always been met with a lovely conversation.

So many people have a weird and ignorant fear of pronouncing words outside of the English accent here in American.
We anglicize every word and place to a shocking degree.
I'm sure I've told this story here, but my best friend is a Brazilian named Ricardo.
Portuguese pronunciation is Heecarrdo.
He introduces himself with his natural, given name, and every other dumb motherfucker he's ever met in America acted confused at Heecarrdo and changed it to Ricardo. Not even R"ee"cardo, but Rick-ardo. Even his host family, 15 years later, still calling him Rick-ardo.
I met a boy who introduced himself as Heecarrdo, I said "Heecarrdo, did I say that right?" and he looked at me like I was Albert Fucking Einstein for getting it right lol

I'm not sure that I have, to be honest with you. I've sometimes quietly asked others how to pronounce it, if they weren't introduced to me personally, but through an email announcing their hire. I honestly have been timid of offending.

I also find it odd that so many people with "different" names just take on anglo names. A guy I work with, Jatinder, goes by Jack instead. I guess it's just easier so as to avoid the "how do you pronounce that?" conversation I mentioned being afraid of having.

Do north americans change their first names to local dialects when they move to a place like India? doubt it.

I doubt it as well. I'm sad that it's a Canadian thing too.
It's honestly a pet peeve for me, majorly irritating.
I was almost 30 years old before I learned there is no place called Florence in Italy.
Why the fuck can't it just be Firenze? Why do we have to hillbillify everything?

I was today years old when I found out there's no place called Florence in Italy.

Me too. And I've been there....for only a day though.

Beautiful city, Firenze . I was very lucky to be there at a time when the Pietà and some of Michelangelo's other sculptures were not barricaded off because some nut case to a hammer to them. There's no way to describe the beauty of that work.

But now dig this, even Wikipedia calls it "Florence". Don't they know Florence is on the Oregon coast?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence

mace1229 · August 2019

brianlux said:

I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?

What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?

If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."

Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work.
Welcome to modern education.

bbiggs · August 2019

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?

What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?

If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."

Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work.
Welcome to modern education.

Hearing this is really alarming. It makes me feel for teachers, like yourself, as well as the other students that are being disrupted. It’s completely unfair and makes absolutely no sense. It’s like there are no rules, structure or discipline allowed in schools any longer. Your story also adds a lot of validity to my friend’s daughter’s situation, which some have dismissed as second hand nonsense. This trend is really ridiculous and will make me at least consider private schooling for my kids if it worsens (and if I can afford it).

Halifax2TheMax · August 2019

bbiggs said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?

What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?

If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."

Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work.
Welcome to modern education.

Hearing this is really alarming. It makes me feel for teachers, like yourself, as well as the other students that are being disrupted. It’s completely unfair and makes absolutely no sense. It’s like there are no rules, structure or discipline allowed in schools any longer. Your story also adds a lot of validity to my friend’s daughter’s situation, which some have dismissed as second hand nonsense. This trend is really ridiculous and will make me at least consider private schooling for my kids if it worsens (and if I can afford it).

Because your “trend” is the norm? Stop it. So you’ve got two kids being a “problem” and it’s the end of education today? “No rules, structure or discipline?” Please. Wonder what you’re doing about it other than think it’s the end of education as we know it and how the other 34 kids will end up in a life of crime and poverty because one kid wants to walk around the class or be called a different name every day? Burned out? Seen enough? Given up on society? Time to change jobs? Which is it?

brianlux · August 2019

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?

What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?

If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."

Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work.
Welcome to modern education.

That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.

And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.

And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.

Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.

mickeyrat · August 2019

brianlux said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?

What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?

If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."

Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work.
Welcome to modern education.

That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.

And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.

And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.

Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.

fundamental question about that student. are they learning whats taught? retaining the same? progressing as the other kids? how do the other kids feel about it?

bbiggs · August 2019

Halifax2TheMax said:

bbiggs said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?

What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?

If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."

Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work.
Welcome to modern education.

Hearing this is really alarming. It makes me feel for teachers, like yourself, as well as the other students that are being disrupted. It’s completely unfair and makes absolutely no sense. It’s like there are no rules, structure or discipline allowed in schools any longer. Your story also adds a lot of validity to my friend’s daughter’s situation, which some have dismissed as second hand nonsense. This trend is really ridiculous and will make me at least consider private schooling for my kids if it worsens (and if I can afford it).

Because your “trend” is the norm? Stop it. So you’ve got two kids being a “problem” and it’s the end of education today? “No rules, structure or discipline?” Please. Wonder what you’re doing about it other than think it’s the end of education as we know it and how the other 34 kids will end up in a life of crime and poverty because one kid wants to walk around the class or be called a different name every day? Burned out? Seen enough? Given up on society? Time to change jobs? Which is it?

Well, since I originally posted this, my friends daughter was informed of two other students that also are demanding to be called by different names. It has nothing to do with gender identity for these two, so it’s not the same, but nonetheless shows me a pattern of behavior in a small sample size. Granted, this is all in one school. But then to hear Mace’s first hand story, it does show me that schools have changed dramatically in their way of thinking from the time that I was there (90’s was long ago but not that long in the big picture). to address your questions/comments:

1. End of education? Nope. But not a positive trend in my opinion. And our education system has some serious weaknesses but that’s another topic.

2. Other kids becoming criminals? Nope. Just potentially being disrupted by kids wandering around the room all day rather than being seated. What a concept.

3. What am I doing about it? You got me there. Unfortunately nothing. But I’ve only had 4 days to ponder this topic, so maybe I’ll have that “ah ha moment.”

4. Burned out? Seen enough? Given up on society? Job change? Maybe all 4...depends on the day.

.

dignin · August 2019

rgambs said:

I don't doubt the veracity of the poster, but I highly doubt the veracity of the story as relayed.

This. There is more to the story.

bbiggs · August 2019

dignin said:

rgambs said:

I don't doubt the veracity of the poster, but I highly doubt the veracity of the story as relayed.

This. There is more to the story.

I don't understand why there has to be more to this story. There is a student who has unique demands and the school is likely concerned about the backlash of not meeting those demands, given the sensitive nature of the topic. I find it very believable and am actually surprised that some don't. It's perfectly fine for you to have that opinion, of course, but I disagree. We have entire threads about outrage culture on here and this topic could fit into that category very easily. No person, company, school, etc. wants to be front page news and go viral for something that has to do with sensitive topics like this. That's my take. Maybe I'm wrong.

dignin · August 2019

bbiggs said:

dignin said:

rgambs said:

I don't doubt the veracity of the poster, but I highly doubt the veracity of the story as relayed.

This. There is more to the story.

I don't understand why there has to be more to this story. There is a student who has unique demands and the school is likely concerned about the backlash of not meeting those demands, given the sensitive nature of the topic. I find it very believable and am actually surprised that some don't. It's perfectly fine for you to have that opinion, of course, but I disagree. We have entire threads about outrage culture on here and this topic could fit into that category very easily. No person, company, school, etc. wants to be front page news and go viral for something that has to do with sensitive topics like this. That's my take. Maybe I'm wrong.

So I'm to believe this student wants to be called something different every day on a whim and the teachers are told to just roll with it?

I'm more inclined to believe that the student want's to be referred to as one thing and people have a problem with that so they have embellished the story. It happens all the time.

Outrage culture works both ways. This provably isn't that big of a deal. A story to get (as oftenreading says) the pearl clutchers clutching their pearls.

dankind · August 2019

We had this real piece of work in junior year American lit class, always being disruptive and trying to get everyone's attention. Finally one day, teach had enough of his bullshit and asked him to leave. When the kid refused, teach picked up the kid's desk with the kid in it, asked one of us to please open the door, and tossed the kid (desk and all) outside. As far as I know, teach suffered no consequences for his actions -- that is, other than a rousing round of applause from his very appreciative students.

The kid was gay, too. Shit. That whole episode would be spun as a hate crime these days.

bbiggs · August 2019

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

dignin said:

rgambs said:

I don't doubt the veracity of the poster, but I highly doubt the veracity of the story as relayed.

This. There is more to the story.

I don't understand why there has to be more to this story. There is a student who has unique demands and the school is likely concerned about the backlash of not meeting those demands, given the sensitive nature of the topic. I find it very believable and am actually surprised that some don't. It's perfectly fine for you to have that opinion, of course, but I disagree. We have entire threads about outrage culture on here and this topic could fit into that category very easily. No person, company, school, etc. wants to be front page news and go viral for something that has to do with sensitive topics like this. That's my take. Maybe I'm wrong.

So I'm to believe this student wants to be called something different every day on a whim and the teachers are told to just roll with it?

I'm more inclined to believe that the student want's to be referred to as one thing and people have a problem with that so they have embellished the story. It happens all the time.

Outrage culture works both ways. This provably isn't that big of a deal. A story to get (as oftenreading says) the pearl clutchers clutching their pearls.

I could see EVERY DAY being embellished. What is too much though? A new name every other day? Every week? Month? The fact that there are multiple changes to what the student wants to be called is nonsense. Pick one name, thing, etc. and stick with it.

I've never owned any pearls, but maybe I'll go check some out. They look purdy.

rgambs · August 2019

brianlux said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?

What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?

If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."

Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work.
Welcome to modern education.

That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.

And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.

And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.

Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.

I get this reaction that you and others are having, but I have to say it reminds me of the reactions in the Living Without Money thread.
Are we so hopelessly inured in the factory education system that we can't imagine and accept alternatives?

Is structure really important to education?
Is standing really a detriment to learning?
Does it disrupt other students? Probably, but only insofar as it makes them wonder why, when they are only a few shorts years from the responsibility of adulthood, they still have to raise their damn hand and ask permission to take a fucking piss.

There are other, better, ways of educating kids.
I get that public schools can't make a complete 180 all at once, but I just don't have it in me to sweat small transgressions against the authoritarian aspect of education.

bbiggs · August 2019

dankind said:

We had this real piece of work in junior year American lit class, always being disruptive and trying to get everyone's attention. Finally one day, teach had enough of his bullshit and asked him to leave. When the kid refused, teach picked up the kid's desk with the kid in it, asked one of us to please open the door, and tossed the kid (desk and all) outside. As far as I know, teach suffered no consequences for his actions -- that is, other than a rousing round of applause from his very appreciative students.

The kid was gay, too. Shit. That whole episode would be spun as a hate crime these days.

Correct, Dan. That would definitely be spun as a hate crime. That student should have been tossed from the class, regardless of sexual preference. The punishment fits the crime in that example. But that would never be accepted today. Never.

bbiggs · August 2019

rgambs said:

brianlux said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?

What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever.   Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?

If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."

Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work.
Welcome to modern education.

That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.

And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.

And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.

Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.

I get this reaction that you and others are having, but I have to say it reminds me of the reactions in the Living Without Money thread.
Are we so hopelessly inured in the factory education system that we can't imagine and accept alternatives?

Is structure really important to education?
Is standing really a detriment to learning?
Does it disrupt other students? Probably, but only insofar as it makes them wonder why, when they are only a few shorts years from the responsibility of adulthood, they still have to raise their damn hand and ask permission to take a fucking piss.

There are other, better, ways of educating kids.
I get that public schools can't make a complete 180 all at once, but I just don't have it in me to sweat small transgressions against the authoritarian aspect of education.

These are valid questions and points. Just because "it has always been done that way," doesn't always mean it is the right way. Thought provoking questions you raise.

mcgruff10 · August 2019

As a teacher of nearly twenty years I can say that I am not surprised by this story and believe every word of it. Schools/kids and parents have definitely changed in the past two decades.

rgambs · August 2019

https://circleschool.org/

dignin · August 2019

rgambs said:

brianlux said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?

What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever.   Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?

If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."

Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work.
Welcome to modern education.

That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.

And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.

And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.

Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.

I get this reaction that you and others are having, but I have to say it reminds me of the reactions in the Living Without Money thread.
Are we so hopelessly inured in the factory education system that we can't imagine and accept alternatives?

Is structure really important to education?
Is standing really a detriment to learning?
Does it disrupt other students? Probably, but only insofar as it makes them wonder why, when they are only a few shorts years from the responsibility of adulthood, they still have to raise their damn hand and ask permission to take a fucking piss.

There are other, better, ways of educating kids.
I get that public schools can't make a complete 180 all at once, but I just don't have it in me to sweat small transgressions against the authoritarian aspect of education.

I wonder how many people here have walked into a working classroom today. I have a child entering school this year with special needs. Went on a tour of the school as preparation last year, I was blown away at how different the classrooms of today are from when I went to school. Blown away in a good way, and very appreciative of how inclusive they are now.

Gender neutral student demands

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