As a teacher of nearly twenty years I can say that I am not surprised by this story and believe every word of it. Schools/kids and parents have definitely changed in the past two decades.
Thank you, Sir. I was starting to think that maybe I'm just a dummy getting duped by a whopper of a tale. That and/or a "pearl clutching granny."
I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?
What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?
If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."
Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work. Welcome to modern education.
That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.
And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.
And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.
Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.
I get this reaction that you and others are having, but I have to say it reminds me of the reactions in the Living Without Money thread. Are we so hopelessly inured in the factory education system that we can't imagine and accept alternatives?
Is structure really important to education? Is standing really a detriment to learning? Does it disrupt other students? Probably, but only insofar as it makes them wonder why, when they are only a few shorts years from the responsibility of adulthood, they still have to raise their damn hand and ask permission to take a fucking piss.
There are other, better, ways of educating kids. I get that public schools can't make a complete 180 all at once, but I just don't have it in me to sweat small transgressions against the authoritarian aspect of education.
I wonder how many people here have walked into a working classroom today. I have a child entering school this year with special needs. Went on a tour of the school as preparation last year, I was blown away at how different the classrooms of today are from when I went to school. Blown away in a good way, and very appreciative of how inclusive they are now.
I have several times. My wife and I volunteer at my kids' school, which involves going into a working classroom. I go in to read to the kids. I attend every extra-curricular event that I am able to. So I do see the inner workings of today's classroom firsthand. There are definitely a lot of great things going on. We could start a thread about the positives we see in today's public school classrooms. This was a story on the other end of that spectrum though, which cannot be dismissed.
As a teacher of nearly twenty years I can say that I am not surprised by this story and believe every word of it. Schools/kids and parents have definitely changed in the past two decades.
Thank you, Sir. I was starting to think that maybe I'm just a dummy getting duped by a whopper of a tale. That and/or a "pearl clutching granny."
It is definitely an extreme case but I still believe it. Remember we see the entire population of a town, the vast majority are awesome but unfortunately that small percentage make the headlines.
As a teacher of nearly twenty years I can say that I am not surprised by this story and believe every word of it. Schools/kids and parents have definitely changed in the past two decades.
I'm not surprised you believe it.
As a teacher for 20 years I'm sure you have a story or two of a school caving to a kids same demands. I would like to hear it.
"inclusion" means my daughter is subjected to a kid who has thrown a chair across the room at the teacher's fucking head with ZERO repercussions/adjustments to the class environment. and that was but one incident in a long list of them.
As a teacher of nearly twenty years I can say that I am not surprised by this story and believe every word of it. Schools/kids and parents have definitely changed in the past two decades.
Thank you, Sir. I was starting to think that maybe I'm just a dummy getting duped by a whopper of a tale. That and/or a "pearl clutching granny."
I really don't get what's so hard to believe about your story. in today's day and age, it sounds every bit believable to me. I don't doubt it for a second.
i can share some of my pearls if you want. as I get older, I can't clutch as many as I used to.
"inclusion" means my daughter is subjected to a kid who has thrown a chair across the room at the teacher's fucking head with ZERO repercussions/adjustments to the class environment. and that was but one incident in a long list of them.
"inclusion" means my daughter is subjected to a kid who has thrown a chair across the room at the teacher's fucking head with ZERO repercussions/adjustments to the class environment. and that was but one incident in a long list of them.
yay inclusion.
Good, lets go back to the old days then.
Fuck my kid.
my comment was unfortunately too generalized.
as we've discussed before, I'm all for inclusion. the vast majority of kids with additional support needs are not just "ok" in the classroom, they can give valuable insight to other kids and teach them a good dose of empathy and how to support others. I know it's actually helped my kids grow as people.
but we can't just have a blanket 100% inclusion system where everyone is allowed in the general population regardless of behavioral challenges. especially when the safety of the other children are at risk.
we've just let the pendulum swing too far one way, for no other reason than it was too far the other way in the "good old days", and all common sense has been thrown out the window in the name of not hurting anyone's feelings. it's ridiculous.
"inclusion" means my daughter is subjected to a kid who has thrown a chair across the room at the teacher's fucking head with ZERO repercussions/adjustments to the class environment. and that was but one incident in a long list of them.
yay inclusion.
That is insane. I'm 38, so when I talk about "when I went to school," I'm not referring to eons ago. When I went to school, if that were to happen, it would result in EXPULSION. Now it results in INCLUSION. And I went to a public school in the Chicago suburbs that had it's fair share of bullshit. Believe me. I don't get this acceptance of shit behavior that schools are tolerating.
"inclusion" means my daughter is subjected to a kid who has thrown a chair across the room at the teacher's fucking head with ZERO repercussions/adjustments to the class environment. and that was but one incident in a long list of them.
yay inclusion.
Good, lets go back to the old days then.
Fuck my kid.
my comment was unfortunately too generalized.
as we've discussed before, I'm all for inclusion. the vast majority of kids with additional support needs are not just "ok" in the classroom, they can give valuable insight to other kids and teach them a good dose of empathy and how to support others. I know it's actually helped my kids grow as people.
but we can't just have a blanket 100% inclusion system where everyone is allowed in the general population regardless of behavioral challenges. especially when the safety of the other children are at risk.
"inclusion" means my daughter is subjected to a kid who has thrown a chair across the room at the teacher's fucking head with ZERO repercussions/adjustments to the class environment. and that was but one incident in a long list of them.
yay inclusion.
That is insane. I'm 38, so when I talk about "when I went to school," I'm not referring to eons ago. When I went to school, if that were to happen, it would result in EXPULSION. Now it results in INCLUSION. And I went to a public school in the Chicago suburbs that had it's fair share of bullshit. Believe me. I don't get this acceptance of shit behavior that schools are tolerating.
it would, and in hindsight, that is also not the answer. expulsion just means the family is then suffering with having to miss work to care for their kid while they find a new school, which they would eventually get expelled from as well. these families need support, not dismissal. but there should also be a place where kids like this can go where harm to others is mitigated.
Flight Risk out NOW!
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,703
"inclusion" means my daughter is subjected to a kid who has thrown a chair across the room at the teacher's fucking head with ZERO repercussions/adjustments to the class environment. and that was but one incident in a long list of them.
yay inclusion.
That is insane. I'm 38, so when I talk about "when I went to school," I'm not referring to eons ago. When I went to school, if that were to happen, it would result in EXPULSION. Now it results in INCLUSION. And I went to a public school in the Chicago suburbs that had it's fair share of bullshit. Believe me. I don't get this acceptance of shit behavior that schools are tolerating.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?
What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?
If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."
Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work. Welcome to modern education.
That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.
And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.
And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.
Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.
I get this reaction that you and others are having, but I have to say it reminds me of the reactions in the Living Without Money thread. Are we so hopelessly inured in the factory education system that we can't imagine and accept alternatives?
Is structure really important to education? Is standing really a detriment to learning? Does it disrupt other students? Probably, but only insofar as it makes them wonder why, when they are only a few shorts years from the responsibility of adulthood, they still have to raise their damn hand and ask permission to take a fucking piss.
There are other, better, ways of educating kids. I get that public schools can't make a complete 180 all at once, but I just don't have it in me to sweat small transgressions against the authoritarian aspect of education.
You have good points, and no standing is not that big of a deal. The problem is he doesn't just stand. He roams and interacts with other kids while they are working and is a big disruption,. I even went as far as getting a standing desk for him, but then he just used it as a toy and rolled around the classroom on it and it was an even bigger distraction. Standing and still following rule sis one thing, free to roam around the room, not follow any rules and being disruptive to 30 other students and being told that is just his style and to deal with it is another. There is a line of structure and freedom in education, I believe that line is slowly being erased and along with it student/parent responsibility. I've tried for a week to work with him, and every thing I try just backfires. I had to stake away the standing desk because it unfortunately had wheels and he would just spin in circles around the room, but according to the admin that was okay. Not to me, so I took it away.
I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?
What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?
If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."
Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work. Welcome to modern education.
That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.
And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.
And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.
Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.
I get this reaction that you and others are having, but I have to say it reminds me of the reactions in the Living Without Money thread. Are we so hopelessly inured in the factory education system that we can't imagine and accept alternatives?
Is structure really important to education? Is standing really a detriment to learning? Does it disrupt other students? Probably, but only insofar as it makes them wonder why, when they are only a few shorts years from the responsibility of adulthood, they still have to raise their damn hand and ask permission to take a fucking piss.
There are other, better, ways of educating kids. I get that public schools can't make a complete 180 all at once, but I just don't have it in me to sweat small transgressions against the authoritarian aspect of education.
You have good points, and no standing is not that big of a deal. The problem is he doesn't just stand. He roams and interacts with other kids while they are working and is a big disruption,. I even went as far as getting a standing desk for him, but then he just used it as a toy and rolled around the classroom on it and it was an even bigger distraction. Standing and still following rule sis one thing, free to roam around the room, not follow any rules and being disruptive to 30 other students and being told that is just his style and to deal with it is another. There is a line of structure and freedom in education, I believe that line is slowly being erased and along with it student/parent responsibility. I've tried for a week to work with him, and every thing I try just backfires. I had to stake away the standing desk because it unfortunately had wheels and he would just spin in circles around the room, but according to the admin that was okay. Not to me, so I took it away.
jesus. admins suck balls these days. I hear similar stories from friends who are teachers up here in the GWN.
Flight Risk out NOW!
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,687
I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?
What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?
If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."
Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work. Welcome to modern education.
That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.
And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.
And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.
Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.
I get this reaction that you and others are having, but I have to say it reminds me of the reactions in the Living Without Money thread. Are we so hopelessly inured in the factory education system that we can't imagine and accept alternatives?
Is structure really important to education? Is standing really a detriment to learning? Does it disrupt other students? Probably, but only insofar as it makes them wonder why, when they are only a few shorts years from the responsibility of adulthood, they still have to raise their damn hand and ask permission to take a fucking piss.
There are other, better, ways of educating kids. I get that public schools can't make a complete 180 all at once, but I just don't have it in me to sweat small transgressions against the authoritarian aspect of education.
I totally agree with seeing many needs for revamping our educational system but (keeping with your analogy), forcing a teacher under the current way in which classrooms are structured to tolerate a kid walking around rather than sitting and not having to do the work would be sort of akin to forcing people to live without money whether they want to or not in a society that is structured around money. You can't force the behavior one person (the kid in the classroom or homeless Daniel Suelo) on everyone else. Suelo, no doubt, would agree.
As for changing the structure of education, the best example I've ever seen was visiting a Seventh Day Adventist school in the Sierra several years ago. The student there were taught an integrated curriculum. They did spend some time in classroom settings but much of the time was spent up and moving around, teaching them real skills of a wide variety and integrating all the basic courses in the act of learning those skills. It takes more creativity to integrate math, science, language, etc with gardening, shop classes, home economics, art, music, etc., but in the real world, these things are integral and teaching in that manner makes all the sense in the world. And the kids coming out of that school had a WAY better chance of living healthy, sane, successful lives, than kids who go to public schools.
But as long as kids are in the public school system as it stands, I don't see why they would let one student get special treatment at the expense of the sanity of the teacher, not to mention what the other kids must think (I'd bet money most of the kids think it sucks.)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,687
I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?
What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?
If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."
Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work. Welcome to modern education.
That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.
And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.
And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.
Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.
I get this reaction that you and others are having, but I have to say it reminds me of the reactions in the Living Without Money thread. Are we so hopelessly inured in the factory education system that we can't imagine and accept alternatives?
Is structure really important to education? Is standing really a detriment to learning? Does it disrupt other students? Probably, but only insofar as it makes them wonder why, when they are only a few shorts years from the responsibility of adulthood, they still have to raise their damn hand and ask permission to take a fucking piss.
There are other, better, ways of educating kids. I get that public schools can't make a complete 180 all at once, but I just don't have it in me to sweat small transgressions against the authoritarian aspect of education.
I wonder how many people here have walked into a working classroom today. I have a child entering school this year with special needs. Went on a tour of the school as preparation last year, I was blown away at how different the classrooms of today are from when I went to school. Blown away in a good way, and very appreciative of how inclusive they are now.
See my post above. In a school like the one I described, a special needs child would not be with all the same kids and teacher all the time. I think kids like yours would benefit from that kind of schooling. What Mace described is pretty out there in terms of special needs and probably far more problematic than most special needs kids. I taught school for 5 years (kids) and 2 years (young adults) and never saw a scenario like the one Mace describes. So my comments are regarding that extreme, not the more typical special needs situation.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I went to public school and had all of those options - shop, metal, art, cooking, typing, sewing, writing, many of the non-academic basics - in addition to standards such as math, English, etc.
Times were different then, though...and for what it's worth, we had several physically and/or mentally handicapped students, most of whom were treated like others (within reason, of course).
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,687
edited August 2019
I had all those options as well, even as far back as that goes, but very little of the academic material was integrated with the hands on or artistic endeavors. The school I described integrated all of that in ways that made learning enjoyable, useful, practical and creative. Part of my thinks "I can't understand why all schools aren't like that!", but part of me knows darned well that school is about training obedient worker bees, not helping kids fulfill their fullest potential for a joyful, successful, and satisfying life. It's sad.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?
What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?
If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."
Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work. Welcome to modern education.
That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.
And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.
And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.
Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.
I get this reaction that you and others are having, but I have to say it reminds me of the reactions in the Living Without Money thread. Are we so hopelessly inured in the factory education system that we can't imagine and accept alternatives?
Is structure really important to education? Is standing really a detriment to learning? Does it disrupt other students? Probably, but only insofar as it makes them wonder why, when they are only a few shorts years from the responsibility of adulthood, they still have to raise their damn hand and ask permission to take a fucking piss.
There are other, better, ways of educating kids. I get that public schools can't make a complete 180 all at once, but I just don't have it in me to sweat small transgressions against the authoritarian aspect of education.
I totally agree with seeing many needs for revamping our educational system but (keeping with your analogy), forcing a teacher under the current way in which classrooms are structured to tolerate a kid walking around rather than sitting and not having to do the work would be sort of akin to forcing people to live without money whether they want to or not in a society that is structured around money. You can't force the behavior one person (the kid in the classroom or homeless Daniel Suelo) on everyone else. Suelo, no doubt, would agree.
As for changing the structure of education, the best example I've ever seen was visiting a Seventh Day Adventist school in the Sierra several years ago. The student there were taught an integrated curriculum. They did spend some time in classroom settings but much of the time was spent up and moving around, teaching them real skills of a wide variety and integrating all the basic courses in the act of learning those skills. It takes more creativity to integrate math, science, language, etc with gardening, shop classes, home economics, art, music, etc., but in the real world, these things are integral and teaching in that manner makes all the sense in the world. And the kids coming out of that school had a WAY better chance of living healthy, sane, successful lives, than kids who go to public schools.
But as long as kids are in the public school system as it stands, I don't see why they would let one student get special treatment at the expense of the sanity of the teacher, not to mention what the other kids must think (I'd bet money most of the kids think it sucks.)
Check this out Brian, my favorite teacher/somewhat mentor moved from public school to the Circle School and it is an amazing institution. https://circleschool.org/
I've also met a few "unschooled" teens who blow your average teen out of the water in every single possible way.
There are no formal courses, classes, or instruction. Students of all ages mingle and learn from each other and instructors in self-guided learning. The piano and music "teacher" is currently an 11 year old student.
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,687
I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?
What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?
If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."
Unfortunately we don’t have that option. I have a student who for 3 days has refused to sit in a chair. I called the dad and his response was “yeah, that’s what his teachers said the last 2 years too..” I spoke with the administration and counselors and they just said he isn’t a kid who can learn in a chair and I have to deal with it. He has an IEP that says he doesn’t have to write anything down and I have to accept all verbal communication as work. Now this kid literally had permission to walk around the classroom all period and do whatever he wants and is literally excused from all work. Welcome to modern education.
That floors me, mace. I can't believe schools are allowing that kind of shit to happen. If your admin and counselors had any sense, they would realize that by letting the kid do what he wants is making life hard for teachers (and the rest of the class, no doubt), and is going to do a disservice to all kids in the long run because it makes it more difficult for them to have any focus, its a distraction, and that kind of things can lead good teachers to throwing in the towel and finding other work.
And I do feel for the kid with the problem of not being able to learn in a chair or write, but that doesn't mean everyone else should suffer and lose out on a decent education.
And I can't help but wonder, is the kid a product of fucked up parenting? There sure is a lot of that shit going down these days.
Goddamn, mace, my hats off to you if you for hanging in there.
I get this reaction that you and others are having, but I have to say it reminds me of the reactions in the Living Without Money thread. Are we so hopelessly inured in the factory education system that we can't imagine and accept alternatives?
Is structure really important to education? Is standing really a detriment to learning? Does it disrupt other students? Probably, but only insofar as it makes them wonder why, when they are only a few shorts years from the responsibility of adulthood, they still have to raise their damn hand and ask permission to take a fucking piss.
There are other, better, ways of educating kids. I get that public schools can't make a complete 180 all at once, but I just don't have it in me to sweat small transgressions against the authoritarian aspect of education.
I totally agree with seeing many needs for revamping our educational system but (keeping with your analogy), forcing a teacher under the current way in which classrooms are structured to tolerate a kid walking around rather than sitting and not having to do the work would be sort of akin to forcing people to live without money whether they want to or not in a society that is structured around money. You can't force the behavior one person (the kid in the classroom or homeless Daniel Suelo) on everyone else. Suelo, no doubt, would agree.
As for changing the structure of education, the best example I've ever seen was visiting a Seventh Day Adventist school in the Sierra several years ago. The student there were taught an integrated curriculum. They did spend some time in classroom settings but much of the time was spent up and moving around, teaching them real skills of a wide variety and integrating all the basic courses in the act of learning those skills. It takes more creativity to integrate math, science, language, etc with gardening, shop classes, home economics, art, music, etc., but in the real world, these things are integral and teaching in that manner makes all the sense in the world. And the kids coming out of that school had a WAY better chance of living healthy, sane, successful lives, than kids who go to public schools.
But as long as kids are in the public school system as it stands, I don't see why they would let one student get special treatment at the expense of the sanity of the teacher, not to mention what the other kids must think (I'd bet money most of the kids think it sucks.)
Check this out Brian, my favorite teacher/somewhat mentor moved from public school to the Circle School and it is an amazing institution. https://circleschool.org/
I've also met a few "unschooled" teens who blow your average teen out of the water in every single possible way.
Very cool! I see it's age integrated which is also true of the school I described- another good feature!
I have a nephew who is somewhat like what you describe. He had little or no school until he was 10 years old at which I home school him in the 4th grade and helped him transition into regular school. He pretty much found public school a waste of time and so as a Jr. in High School said, "screw this", and for a couple hundred dollars sold a guitar to me that he didn't want and that I lusted after and used that money to pave his was to buying a house twice as big as anything I've ever lived in- and did that in his early 20's!- and has a good and happy life. School had absolutely nothing to do with him getting there.
Of course, not all kids have that kind of drive, but I think more would if given the chance to be in a more practical, healthy, fruitful environment.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,687
I've been thinking about this situation with special needs kids a lot and started to feel unhappy with some of my previous responses because I think they could be taken as being unsympathetic to kids with special needs. That's not the case at all.
But my thinking does go to protecting the teachers job first. In fact, I think the order of importance in terms of protecting their relationship to each other is this: the school first, then the teacher, then the student. Let me explain: In human services, for professional agencies we teach what is called "Trinity Safety" which means agency first, counselor second, and client third. The reason for this is ultimately in the best interest of the client. Without an agency, the counselor has no job and without a counselor, the client has no helper. So I think the same applies to schools.
But anyway, the concern I have is- how and where does the special needs child fit in? I think isolating them is a bad idea. That leaves them out of a lot of life experiences and stigmatizes them. We have a number of Hospice thrift stores in our area and all of those stores have programs where young adults with developmental disability issues come in with their coaches to work in the stores.
But I'm also unsure how wise it is to have some special needs kids (like Mace's student) in a "regular" class all day. Again, consider the folks at the thrift stores- they don't work full-time in any one store, not because they don't have enough energy, but because there are limits to what they can do and limits to the work that is available to them in any one store and because some of them have short attention spans. I suspect it's also because some customers are not comfortable with a full-time special needs setting. Doesn't bother me- I always give those folks some of my time and attention.
So I'm thinking maybe the same with school. Give the special needs kids time in their own programs but also time in regular class. That way, the kid who never sits down isn't walking around the same class all day. Another idea I had was to have class time where kids without special needs are given the opportunity to work with the special needs kids- maybe a hour or two here and there where equal numbers of helpers and special needs kids work together. And make it such that it is considered an honor to be a helper- that might keep the smart ass kids and bullies at bay.
I didn't work with special needs kids much so maybe my ideas are out to lunch. I'm cool with being told so if that's the case.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I appreciate your response Brian. But one thing I didn’t make clear was I don’t even believe my example to be of a special needs kid. He is more likely a product of no discipline at home and lack of consequences at school. I did call home and the dad didn’t care at all and offered no help. The school refuses to discipline him for disruptions. His diagnoses is ADHD. Nearly every kid who fails middle school ends up with some special ed label, many don’t need it. There’s plenty of research about how over-diagnoses adhd is, with many professionals putting the actual number at less than 5% of students. But many schools and districts have a population of 20-30% diagnosed. In today’s schools if a kid fails multiple classes or has ongoing behavior problems they label him adhd and try to adjust the rules to make him appear successful instead of holding that child accountable. Sort of goes back to that old saying of if everyone is special, then nobody is. That is what special education has become. And it really sucks because it takes take away from those who truly do need it. But it is not uncommon to have 10-12 kids out of a class of 32 with a special ed label and a list of their special needs that range from modified behavior to requiring me to provide them with all of my notes for class and allowing open note tests. If we get a freshman coming in who sits there and refuses to work because he’s too cool for school now that he’s in the 9th grade and cares so little about school that he doesn’t even bother to take a pencil out to do any work, most likely he will be labeled special ed before the end of the first semester. I will be required to do some of his work for him, give him multiple chances on assignments he refuses to do, give him until the last day of the semester to take shortened versions of tests he refuses to take in class, etc. I’ve even seen accommodations that include things like they don’t need to complete assignments, as long as they show me they answered 1 question on a paper I give them full credit. A math teacher that may have students practice a new topic with 10 problems he only has to do 1 to show he knows how. How many of us would have learned any math if we only had to do it 1 time? And these are legal documents teachers are required to follow by law. That’s special education.
^ Sounds like schools are setting kids up for failure in those scenarios you describe above. Answer 1 question when everyone else does 10 and receive full credit? The real world is going to chew up and spit those kids out later in life. That’s a shame. And I’m sure the kids who have to answer 10 questions to get that same full credit don’t feel that is fair (if they know he/she only has to answer 1). Maybe less incentive for them to work as hard? Seems like a slippery slope.
*It goes without saying that any child or person that truly has special needs should be handled much differently in the classroom. My thoughts are strictly for those that aren’t in that category but schools label as such.
I appreciate your response Brian. But one thing I didn’t make clear was I don’t even believe my example to be of a special needs kid. He is more likely a product of no discipline at home and lack of consequences at school. I did call home and the dad didn’t care at all and offered no help. The school refuses to discipline him for disruptions. His diagnoses is ADHD. Nearly every kid who fails middle school ends up with some special ed label, many don’t need it. There’s plenty of research about how over-diagnoses adhd is, with many professionals putting the actual number at less than 5% of students. But many schools and districts have a population of 20-30% diagnosed. In today’s schools if a kid fails multiple classes or has ongoing behavior problems they label him adhd and try to adjust the rules to make him appear successful instead of holding that child accountable. Sort of goes back to that old saying of if everyone is special, then nobody is. That is what special education has become. And it really sucks because it takes take away from those who truly do need it. But it is not uncommon to have 10-12 kids out of a class of 32 with a special ed label and a list of their special needs that range from modified behavior to requiring me to provide them with all of my notes for class and allowing open note tests. If we get a freshman coming in who sits there and refuses to work because he’s too cool for school now that he’s in the 9th grade and cares so little about school that he doesn’t even bother to take a pencil out to do any work, most likely he will be labeled special ed before the end of the first semester. I will be required to do some of his work for him, give him multiple chances on assignments he refuses to do, give him until the last day of the semester to take shortened versions of tests he refuses to take in class, etc. I’ve even seen accommodations that include things like they don’t need to complete assignments, as long as they show me they answered 1 question on a paper I give them full credit. A math teacher that may have students practice a new topic with 10 problems he only has to do 1 to show he knows how. How many of us would have learned any math if we only had to do it 1 time? And these are legal documents teachers are required to follow by law. That’s special education.
Can you post the ADHD info you site?
And just so everyone here understands, ADHD is a very real thing.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-adhd-overdiagnosed-and-overtreated-2017031611304 I thought overdiagnoses of adhd was commonly accepted by just about everyone. And over Medicare our kids too. But there’s a link above. Honestly, I haven’t read it, it was just the first Google search but I scrolled down enough to see they stated experts predict it should be about 5%, not 20 or more than many schools have. I cant legally share my students data with you, but I can tell you it isn’t rare to have 10 kids on a room with adhd. I absolutely believe it’s a real thing. I also believe it is grossly over-diagnoses. Like I said, in many schools they put a label on any kid who isn’t succeeding in class. Most often adhd.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-adhd-overdiagnosed-and-overtreated-2017031611304 I thought overdiagnoses of adhd was commonly accepted by just about everyone. And over Medicare our kids too. But there’s a link above. Honestly, I haven’t read it, it was just the first Google search but I scrolled down enough to see they stated experts predict it should be about 5%, not 20 or more than many schools have. I cant legally share my students data with you, but I can tell you it isn’t rare to have 10 kids on a room with adhd. I absolutely believe it’s a real thing. I also believe it is grossly over-diagnoses. Like I said, in many schools they put a label on any kid who isn’t succeeding in class. Most often adhd.
Agreed that is seems to be a 'crutch' diagnosis these days.
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It is definitely an extreme case but I still believe it. Remember we see the entire population of a town, the vast majority are awesome but unfortunately that small percentage make the headlines.
As a teacher for 20 years I'm sure you have a story or two of a school caving to a kids same demands. I would like to hear it.
yay inclusion.
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i can share some of my pearls if you want. as I get older, I can't clutch as many as I used to.
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Fuck my kid.
as we've discussed before, I'm all for inclusion. the vast majority of kids with additional support needs are not just "ok" in the classroom, they can give valuable insight to other kids and teach them a good dose of empathy and how to support others. I know it's actually helped my kids grow as people.
but we can't just have a blanket 100% inclusion system where everyone is allowed in the general population regardless of behavioral challenges. especially when the safety of the other children are at risk.
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There is a line of structure and freedom in education, I believe that line is slowly being erased and along with it student/parent responsibility. I've tried for a week to work with him, and every thing I try just backfires. I had to stake away the standing desk because it unfortunately had wheels and he would just spin in circles around the room, but according to the admin that was okay. Not to me, so I took it away.
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Times were different then, though...and for what it's worth, we had several physically and/or mentally handicapped students, most of whom were treated like others (within reason, of course).
https://circleschool.org/
I've also met a few "unschooled" teens who blow your average teen out of the water in every single possible way.
Students of all ages mingle and learn from each other and instructors in self-guided learning.
The piano and music "teacher" is currently an 11 year old student.
In today’s schools if a kid fails multiple classes or has ongoing behavior problems they label him adhd and try to adjust the rules to make him appear successful instead of holding that child accountable.
Sort of goes back to that old saying of if everyone is special, then nobody is. That is what special education has become. And it really sucks because it takes take away from those who truly do need it. But it is not uncommon to have 10-12 kids out of a class of 32 with a special ed label and a list of their special needs that range from modified behavior to requiring me to provide them with all of my notes for class and allowing open note tests.
If we get a freshman coming in who sits there and refuses to work because he’s too cool for school now that he’s in the 9th grade and cares so little about school that he doesn’t even bother to take a pencil out to do any work, most likely he will be labeled special ed before the end of the first semester. I will be required to do some of his work for him, give him multiple chances on assignments he refuses to do, give him until the last day of the semester to take shortened versions of tests he refuses to take in class, etc. I’ve even seen accommodations that include things like they don’t need to complete assignments, as long as they show me they answered 1 question on a paper I give them full credit. A math teacher that may have students practice a new topic with 10 problems he only has to do 1 to show he knows how. How many of us would have learned any math if we only had to do it 1 time? And these are legal documents teachers are required to follow by law.
That’s special education.
*It goes without saying that any child or person that truly has special needs should be handled much differently in the classroom. My thoughts are strictly for those that aren’t in that category but schools label as such.
And just so everyone here understands, ADHD is a very real thing.
I thought overdiagnoses of adhd was commonly accepted by just about everyone. And over Medicare our kids too. But there’s a link above. Honestly, I haven’t read it, it was just the first Google search but I scrolled down enough to see they stated experts predict it should be about 5%, not 20 or more than many schools have.
I cant legally share my students data with you, but I can tell you it isn’t rare to have 10 kids on a room with adhd.
I absolutely believe it’s a real thing. I also believe it is grossly over-diagnoses. Like I said, in many schools they put a label on any kid who isn’t succeeding in class. Most often adhd.