Gender neutral student demands

HughFreakingDillon

I'm getting so fucking sick of all this sweden is better than the US bullshit. jesus. 

Meltdown99

HughFreakingDillon said:

I'm getting so fucking sick of all this sweden is better than the US bullshit. jesus. 

Yup, it got old long ago.  

mcgruff10

HughFreakingDillon said:

I'm getting so fucking sick of all this sweden is better than the US bullshit. jesus. 

+2.

oftenreading

bbiggs said:

oftenreading said:

rgambs said:

"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.

Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.

I haven’t seen anyone suggest this person must be called by their legal given name. What has been suggested is that this person choose ONE name, whatever it may be, rather than making life difficult for everyone and demanding to be called the name of their choice on a daily basis.  I think you’ve misinterpreted a lot of what has been discussed unless you’re referring to different threads. 

"It" must be registered with the district under a name. Presumably "it's" legal name. "It" should be called by "it's" legal name. If "it" doesn't like that, then "it" needs to have that changed. 

Yup, someone did, since a kid can't get their name legally changed on their own. 

oftenreading

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

rgambs said:

"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.

Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.

they had to register with something, as far as I remember it was your birth cetificate. from that registration comes the initial attendence lists. from there the teacher would be asking the question as to what the student prefers to be called, i.e. nickname, etc. Thats usually only asked once.

I am interested to know how the parents are accommodating their child. it begins there.

All else fails the teacher can simply say "hey you....."

otherwise, the student can be homeschooled......

its ironic you bring up the "good old days" about  bullying and the like and in the same breath call some here "pearl clutching old grannies"

Yeah, I'm sure the crowd in here is just as vulnerable as some 16 or 17 year old trans kid trying to navigate high school

And honestly, I hope the parents are supporting their kid. Not all do, though. 

oh, so vulnerability is the main criteria as to whether words or actions are bullying?

You're really going to argue that "pearl clutching grannies" is bullying?

Right. 

mickeyrat

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

rgambs said:

"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.

Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.

they had to register with something, as far as I remember it was your birth cetificate. from that registration comes the initial attendence lists. from there the teacher would be asking the question as to what the student prefers to be called, i.e. nickname, etc. Thats usually only asked once.

I am interested to know how the parents are accommodating their child. it begins there.

All else fails the teacher can simply say "hey you....."

otherwise, the student can be homeschooled......

its ironic you bring up the "good old days" about  bullying and the like and in the same breath call some here "pearl clutching old grannies"

Yeah, I'm sure the crowd in here is just as vulnerable as some 16 or 17 year old trans kid trying to navigate high school

And honestly, I hope the parents are supporting their kid. Not all do, though. 

oh, so vulnerability is the main criteria as to whether words or actions are bullying?

You're really going to argue that "pearl clutching grannies" is bullying?

Right. 

well it IS demeaning to pearl-clutching grannies to liken them to this bunch.

oftenreading

brianlux said:

oftenreading said:

brianlux said:

I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite").  As with being gay, that's not a choice.  But what do you call a person who is both?  "It" seems degrading.  So what then?

What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name.  Why not?  Is Mary too female, Bart too male?  Give yourself a nickname and be Marty.  Or what ever.   Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday? 

If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get.  I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday.  Either be reasonable or get out of my class."

The typical non-specific pronoun these days is "they", Brian. It takes a bit of getting used to for those of us who prefer to keep our singular and plural pronouns separate, but less bothersome than most of the alternatives, and at least is not degrading, as you point out. 

Typical yes, but grammatically incorrect.  They is plural.  Rather than compromise the grammar, perhaps a new word, or a slightly new definition to one that exists would be appropriate.  Other wise, you create confusion. 

"They decided to have a new name everyday."

"Oh my God, no.  The whole class?"

The English language just doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun for people, and we haven't been able to come up with one that has gotten widespread acceptance, so we're left with "they". Not ideal but oh well. 

oftenreading

HughFreakingDillon said:

oftenreading said:

rgambs said:

"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.

Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.

I think that's quite unfair. I think many of us are as liberal as the day is long, and just as empathetic, but where does it end? this is getting fucking ridiculous. 

I don't agree with someone saying they are biologically the wrong sex. If they wish to change it, have at it. Don't wish to change it but identify as the other? Also, have at it. I don't give two fucks about what bathrooms people use. I think separation by sex is stupid anyway (no, I never watched Ally McBeal). But I do agree that people can identify with whatever gender they wish. Sex is binary. Gender doesn't have to be. 

but pandering to someone who seems to be obviously just trying to fuck with the system is a bad precedent to take. 

pick a name or stay home. 

Sure, some are, while others sadly are not. 

oftenreading

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

mickeyrat said:

oftenreading said:

rgambs said:

"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.

Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.

they had to register with something, as far as I remember it was your birth cetificate. from that registration comes the initial attendence lists. from there the teacher would be asking the question as to what the student prefers to be called, i.e. nickname, etc. Thats usually only asked once.

I am interested to know how the parents are accommodating their child. it begins there.

All else fails the teacher can simply say "hey you....."

otherwise, the student can be homeschooled......

its ironic you bring up the "good old days" about  bullying and the like and in the same breath call some here "pearl clutching old grannies"

Yeah, I'm sure the crowd in here is just as vulnerable as some 16 or 17 year old trans kid trying to navigate high school

And honestly, I hope the parents are supporting their kid. Not all do, though. 

oh, so vulnerability is the main criteria as to whether words or actions are bullying?

You're really going to argue that "pearl clutching grannies" is bullying?

Right. 

well it IS demeaning to pearl-clutching grannies to liken them to this bunch.

Fair enough

And interestingly, the very definition of bullying includes the aspect of vulnerability and a perceived power differential, so yes, vulnerability is a main criteria.

OnWis97

A few thoughts on "they"

• "They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain.  "When's your new teaching assistant coming?"  "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown.  From a grammar perspective it's odd.  And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved.  What's even stranger is:
• He/She: Gender-specific only
• Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
• Cousin: neutral term only.

In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.  

I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world.  This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.

HughFreakingDillon

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

oftenreading said:

rgambs said:

"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.

Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.

I think that's quite unfair. I think many of us are as liberal as the day is long, and just as empathetic, but where does it end? this is getting fucking ridiculous. 

I don't agree with someone saying they are biologically the wrong sex. If they wish to change it, have at it. Don't wish to change it but identify as the other? Also, have at it. I don't give two fucks about what bathrooms people use. I think separation by sex is stupid anyway (no, I never watched Ally McBeal). But I do agree that people can identify with whatever gender they wish. Sex is binary. Gender doesn't have to be. 

but pandering to someone who seems to be obviously just trying to fuck with the system is a bad precedent to take. 

pick a name or stay home. 

Sure, some are, while others sadly are not. 

ok, did you care to address the rest of my post? you don't have to, I'd just like your thoughts on it. 

rgambs

Now it's a first grader?  If I wasn't sure it was bullshit before I would be now lol

bbiggs

rgambs said:

Now it's a first grader?  If I wasn't sure it was bullshit before I would be now lol

No. “First YEAR teacher,” is what I said, as in she has not taught before.  She teaches high school AP history, so unless the kid is Doogie Howser, he/she/they is likely 17 or 18 years old. 

rgambs

We should just do away with pronouns altogether... problem solved, suck it Sweden with your dehumanizing substitutes.

bbiggs

OnWis97 said:

A few thoughts on "they"

• "They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain.  "When's your new teaching assistant coming?"  "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown.  From a grammar perspective it's odd.  And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved.  What's even stranger is:
• He/She: Gender-specific only
• Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
• Cousin: neutral term only.

In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.  

I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world.  This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.

I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak.  For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?”  But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore. 

rgambs

bbiggs said:

rgambs said:

Now it's a first grader?  If I wasn't sure it was bullshit before I would be now lol

No. “First YEAR teacher,” is what I said, as in she has not taught before.  She teaches high school AP history, so unless the kid is Doogie Howser, he/she/they is likely 17 or 18 years old. 

My bad, I stand corrected!

I still don't believe the story as relayed, and I still don't mean any offense to you or your loved ones, though I understand those two statements don't fit together very well.

dankind

bbiggs said:

OnWis97 said:

A few thoughts on "they"

• "They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain.  "When's your new teaching assistant coming?"  "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown.  From a grammar perspective it's odd.  And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved.  What's even stranger is:
• He/She: Gender-specific only
• Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
• Cousin: neutral term only.

In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.  

I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world.  This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.

I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak.  For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?”  But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore. 

Don't worry about it.

Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person. 

We're in this thing together.

HughFreakingDillon

I don't see this as any different than calling someone with the name Kelly "she", or a married woman "Mrs".  If it's a he, or if you prefer "Ms", then it's up to that person or the person who knows them to correct me. I'm not going to fucking ask every single person I meet from now on which pronoun they are, unless I'm told beforehand that there's an identity issue. in that case I'd ask their preference. 

I will respect your identity, but don't expect me to waste my time finding out. the onus is on you to let it be known or to correct me. 

My real name is Paul. A woman at work has a nickname for fucking everybody. for reasons unknown to sane people, she calls me Paula. would that be offensive to someone with gender identity issues, thinking it's making fun of that?

bbiggs

rgambs said:

bbiggs said:

rgambs said:

Now it's a first grader?  If I wasn't sure it was bullshit before I would be now lol

No. “First YEAR teacher,” is what I said, as in she has not taught before.  She teaches high school AP history, so unless the kid is Doogie Howser, he/she/they is likely 17 or 18 years old. 

My bad, I stand corrected!

I still don't believe the story as relayed, and I still don't mean any offense to you or your loved ones, though I understand those two statements don't fit together very well.

All good buddy. No offense taken at all

bbiggs

dankind said:

bbiggs said:

OnWis97 said:

A few thoughts on "they"

• "They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain.  "When's your new teaching assistant coming?"  "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown.  From a grammar perspective it's odd.  And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved.  What's even stranger is:
• He/She: Gender-specific only
• Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
• Cousin: neutral term only.

In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.  

I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world.  This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.

I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak.  For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?”  But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore. 

Don't worry about it.

Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person. 

We're in this thing together.

Good points and agreed.  I still do have genuine interest in knowing what the proper way to speak in 2019 is though.  I know my way of saying “he or she” was grammatically correct at one point (maybe still is?), but it seems that it is no longer correct (politically?).  Not being a smart ass. Just wondering what is deemed appropriate these days and I haven’t seen a consensus or definitive answer.  I guess “they” is the temporary winner.