"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.
Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.
I haven’t seen anyone suggest this person must be called by their legal given name. What has been suggested is that this person choose ONE name, whatever it may be, rather than making life difficult for everyone and demanding to be called the name of their choice on a daily basis. I think you’ve misinterpreted a lot of what has been discussed unless you’re referring to different threads.
"It" must be registered with the district under a name. Presumably "it's" legal name. "It" should be called by "it's" legal name. If "it" doesn't like that, then "it" needs to have that changed.
Yup, someone did, since a kid can't get their name legally changed on their own.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.
Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.
they had to register with something, as far as I remember it was your birth cetificate. from that registration comes the initial attendence lists. from there the teacher would be asking the question as to what the student prefers to be called, i.e. nickname, etc. Thats usually only asked once.
I am interested to know how the parents are accommodating their child. it begins there.
All else fails the teacher can simply say "hey you....."
otherwise, the student can be homeschooled......
its ironic you bring up the "good old days" about bullying and the like and in the same breath call some here "pearl clutching old grannies"
Yeah, I'm sure the crowd in here is just as vulnerable as some 16 or 17 year old trans kid trying to navigate high school
And honestly, I hope the parents are supporting their kid. Not all do, though.
oh, so vulnerability is the main criteria as to whether words or actions are bullying?
You're really going to argue that "pearl clutching grannies" is bullying?
Right.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.
Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.
they had to register with something, as far as I remember it was your birth cetificate. from that registration comes the initial attendence lists. from there the teacher would be asking the question as to what the student prefers to be called, i.e. nickname, etc. Thats usually only asked once.
I am interested to know how the parents are accommodating their child. it begins there.
All else fails the teacher can simply say "hey you....."
otherwise, the student can be homeschooled......
its ironic you bring up the "good old days" about bullying and the like and in the same breath call some here "pearl clutching old grannies"
Yeah, I'm sure the crowd in here is just as vulnerable as some 16 or 17 year old trans kid trying to navigate high school
And honestly, I hope the parents are supporting their kid. Not all do, though.
oh, so vulnerability is the main criteria as to whether words or actions are bullying?
You're really going to argue that "pearl clutching grannies" is bullying?
Right.
well it IS demeaning to pearl-clutching grannies to liken them to this bunch.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I have to assume this person is an intersex person (previously referred to as a "hermaphrodite"). As with being gay, that's not a choice. But what do you call a person who is both? "It" seems degrading. So what then?
What I don't get is the kid refusing to answer to a name. Why not? Is Mary too female, Bart too male? Give yourself a nickname and be Marty. Or what ever. Why would the kid make things matter by not using some kind of name? And why a different noun everyday?
If I were that teacher, I would would tell the kid, "Pick one word, that's all you get. I'm not going to call you or anybody else by a different name or word everyday. Either be reasonable or get out of my class."
The typical non-specific pronoun these days is "they", Brian. It takes a bit of getting used to for those of us who prefer to keep our singular and plural pronouns separate, but less bothersome than most of the alternatives, and at least is not degrading, as you point out.
Typical yes, but grammatically incorrect. They is plural. Rather than compromise the grammar, perhaps a new word, or a slightly new definition to one that exists would be appropriate. Other wise, you create confusion.
"They decided to have a new name everyday."
"Oh my God, no. The whole class?"
The English language just doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun for people, and we haven't been able to come up with one that has gotten widespread acceptance, so we're left with "they". Not ideal but oh well.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.
Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.
I think that's quite unfair. I think many of us are as liberal as the day is long, and just as empathetic, but where does it end? this is getting fucking ridiculous.
I don't agree with someone saying they are biologically the wrong sex. If they wish to change it, have at it. Don't wish to change it but identify as the other? Also, have at it. I don't give two fucks about what bathrooms people use. I think separation by sex is stupid anyway (no, I never watched Ally McBeal). But I do agree that people can identify with whatever gender they wish. Sex is binary. Gender doesn't have to be.
but pandering to someone who seems to be obviously just trying to fuck with the system is a bad precedent to take.
pick a name or stay home.
Sure, some are, while others sadly are not.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.
Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.
they had to register with something, as far as I remember it was your birth cetificate. from that registration comes the initial attendence lists. from there the teacher would be asking the question as to what the student prefers to be called, i.e. nickname, etc. Thats usually only asked once.
I am interested to know how the parents are accommodating their child. it begins there.
All else fails the teacher can simply say "hey you....."
otherwise, the student can be homeschooled......
its ironic you bring up the "good old days" about bullying and the like and in the same breath call some here "pearl clutching old grannies"
Yeah, I'm sure the crowd in here is just as vulnerable as some 16 or 17 year old trans kid trying to navigate high school
And honestly, I hope the parents are supporting their kid. Not all do, though.
oh, so vulnerability is the main criteria as to whether words or actions are bullying?
You're really going to argue that "pearl clutching grannies" is bullying?
Right.
well it IS demeaning to pearl-clutching grannies to liken them to this bunch.
Fair enough
And interestingly, the very definition of bullying includes the aspect of vulnerability and a perceived power differential, so yes, vulnerability is a main criteria.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.
I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
1995 Milwaukee 1998 Alpine, Alpine 2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston 2004 Boston, Boston 2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty) 2011 Alpine, Alpine 2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
"It" sounds like a Facebook meme that your crazy aunt Linda shares while she laments about God being kicked out of schools.
Sounds like there are quite a few pearl-clutching old grannies in here, and maybe one or two who'd like to go back to the good ol' days when gay, trans and otherwise gender-fluid kids were bullied mercilessly and killed themselves in high numbers, but by god they got called by their legal names.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have an empathetic and experienced person sit down with this kid and say "You have to chose a name that we can call you each day." I think it's unreasonable to demand that the kid be called their legal given name.
I think that's quite unfair. I think many of us are as liberal as the day is long, and just as empathetic, but where does it end? this is getting fucking ridiculous.
I don't agree with someone saying they are biologically the wrong sex. If they wish to change it, have at it. Don't wish to change it but identify as the other? Also, have at it. I don't give two fucks about what bathrooms people use. I think separation by sex is stupid anyway (no, I never watched Ally McBeal). But I do agree that people can identify with whatever gender they wish. Sex is binary. Gender doesn't have to be.
but pandering to someone who seems to be obviously just trying to fuck with the system is a bad precedent to take.
pick a name or stay home.
Sure, some are, while others sadly are not.
ok, did you care to address the rest of my post? you don't have to, I'd just like your thoughts on it.
Now it's a first grader? If I wasn't sure it was bullshit before I would be now lol
No. “First YEAR teacher,” is what I said, as in she has not taught before. She teaches high school AP history, so unless the kid is Doogie Howser, he/she/they is likely 17 or 18 years old.
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.
I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.
Now it's a first grader? If I wasn't sure it was bullshit before I would be now lol
No. “First YEAR teacher,” is what I said, as in she has not taught before. She teaches high school AP history, so unless the kid is Doogie Howser, he/she/they is likely 17 or 18 years old.
My bad, I stand corrected!
I still don't believe the story as relayed, and I still don't mean any offense to you or your loved ones, though I understand those two statements don't fit together very well.
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.
I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.
Don't worry about it.
Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.
I don't see this as any different than calling someone with the name Kelly "she", or a married woman "Mrs". If it's a he, or if you prefer "Ms", then it's up to that person or the person who knows them to correct me. I'm not going to fucking ask every single person I meet from now on which pronoun they are, unless I'm told beforehand that there's an identity issue. in that case I'd ask their preference.
I will respect your identity, but don't expect me to waste my time finding out. the onus is on you to let it be known or to correct me.
My real name is Paul. A woman at work has a nickname for fucking everybody. for reasons unknown to sane people, she calls me Paula. would that be offensive to someone with gender identity issues, thinking it's making fun of that?
Now it's a first grader? If I wasn't sure it was bullshit before I would be now lol
No. “First YEAR teacher,” is what I said, as in she has not taught before. She teaches high school AP history, so unless the kid is Doogie Howser, he/she/they is likely 17 or 18 years old.
My bad, I stand corrected!
I still don't believe the story as relayed, and I still don't mean any offense to you or your loved ones, though I understand those two statements don't fit together very well.
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.
I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.
Don't worry about it.
Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.
We're in this thing together.
Good points and agreed. I still do have genuine interest in knowing what the proper way to speak in 2019 is though. I know my way of saying “he or she” was grammatically correct at one point (maybe still is?), but it seems that it is no longer correct (politically?). Not being a smart ass. Just wondering what is deemed appropriate these days and I haven’t seen a consensus or definitive answer. I guess “they” is the temporary winner.
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.
I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.
Don't worry about it.
Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.
We're in this thing together.
Agreed. My comment on doing away with pronouns is only half-jest. I started shying away from them years ago and moved more towards just always using a person's name...at the time it had nothing to do with gender, it was just about keeping conversations straight in a large, interconnected social circle. After getting used to it, it almost feels disrespectful to reduce an individual to a nearly anonymous he/she.
I don't see this as any different than calling someone with the name Kelly "she", or a married woman "Mrs". If it's a he, or if you prefer "Ms", then it's up to that person or the person who knows them to correct me. I'm not going to fucking ask every single person I meet from now on which pronoun they are, unless I'm told beforehand that there's an identity issue. in that case I'd ask their preference.
I will respect your identity, but don't expect me to waste my time finding out. the onus is on you to let it be known or to correct me.
My real name is Paul. A woman at work has a nickname for fucking everybody. for reasons unknown to sane people, she calls me Paula. would that be offensive to someone with gender identity issues, thinking it's making fun of that?
Great post. Made me chuckle. All fair and true statements imo.
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.
I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.
Don't worry about it.
Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.
We're in this thing together.
Agreed. My comment on doing away with pronouns is only half-jest. I started shying away from them years ago and moved more towards just always using a person's name...at the time it had nothing to do with gender, it was just about keeping conversations straight in a large, interconnected social circle. After getting used to it, it almost feels disrespectful to reduce an individual to a nearly anonymous he/she.
Agreed! But what happens when this person doesn’t want to use a name?! 😂 Back at square one...
Now it's a first grader? If I wasn't sure it was bullshit before I would be now lol
No. “First YEAR teacher,” is what I said, as in she has not taught before. She teaches high school AP history, so unless the kid is Doogie Howser, he/she/they is likely 17 or 18 years old.
Good gawd, talk about being thrown in the deep end!
I didn't teach for a long time- about 7 years total including two as program assistant in a college- but in that time I never ran into any kind of problem like this. I think the most difficult student I had was teaching counseling skills and having a female student who believed all male humans on earth should be eliminated. The head of the program and I decided this person should probably not go into counseling. I asked my colleague what we should do. She said, "I think I'll ask her to leave the program." Thankfully, the student quit.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.
I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.
Don't worry about it.
Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.
We're in this thing together.
Agreed. My comment on doing away with pronouns is only half-jest. I started shying away from them years ago and moved more towards just always using a person's name...at the time it had nothing to do with gender, it was just about keeping conversations straight in a large, interconnected social circle. After getting used to it, it almost feels disrespectful to reduce an individual to a nearly anonymous he/she.
Agreed! But what happens when this person doesn’t want to use a name?! 😂 Back at square one...
Hahaha yeah, but that's the part where it either becomes an untrue bullshit story, or, if true, everyone agrees that it's bullshit and the person should fuck off Planet Earth and go to the moon.
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.
I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.
Don't worry about it.
Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.
We're in this thing together.
Good points and agreed. I still do have genuine interest in knowing what the proper way to speak in 2019 is though. I know my way of saying “he or she” was grammatically correct at one point (maybe still is?), but it seems that it is no longer correct (politically?). Not being a smart ass. Just wondering what is deemed appropriate these days and I haven’t seen a consensus or definitive answer. I guess “they” is the temporary winner.
I'd say that at least 70% of the useful things I've learned so far in this life -- that is, things that have actually stuck with me -- were because I fucked up initially.
We have our pronouns in our email signatures at my office. I have disabled my email signature because I'm someone who doesn't care about that personally for myself. As I mentioned, Flower is my spirit animal. And I can sign my own damn name if I feel like it.
But I can certainly understand why identity is important to a great many people in the current climate. We've had a few office- or department-wide emails go around just to help everyone pronounce certain coworkers' names. The emails were sent by the individuals who have those names, and they explained how their names were very important to them, their families and significant to their religious and/or cultural heritage. They welcomed people to stop by their desks and ask them how to pronounce their names and have a conversation about it. One of the senders sits near me, and she has had quite a few people stop by and engage with her. And yeah, I fucked up her name for a while, too.
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.
I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.
Don't worry about it.
Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.
We're in this thing together.
Good points and agreed. I still do have genuine interest in knowing what the proper way to speak in 2019 is though. I know my way of saying “he or she” was grammatically correct at one point (maybe still is?), but it seems that it is no longer correct (politically?). Not being a smart ass. Just wondering what is deemed appropriate these days and I haven’t seen a consensus or definitive answer. I guess “they” is the temporary winner.
I'd say that at least 70% of the useful things I've learned so far in this life -- that is, things that have actually stuck with me -- were because I fucked up initially.
We have our pronouns in our email signatures at my office. I have disabled my email signature because I'm someone who doesn't care about that personally for myself. As I mentioned, Flower is my spirit animal. And I can sign my own damn name if I feel like it.
But I can certainly understand why identity is important to a great many people in the current climate. We've had a few office- or department-wide emails go around just to help everyone pronounce certain coworkers' names. The emails were sent by the individuals who have those names, and they explained how their names were very important to them, their families and significant to their religious and/or cultural heritage. They welcomed people to stop by their desks and ask them how to pronounce their names and have a conversation about it. One of the senders sits near me, and she has had quite a few people stop by and engage with her. And yeah, I fucked up her name for a while, too.
I really wish my workplace was that progressive and open. we have so many people whose names no one can fucking pronounce, and we're expected to just figure it out.
Ha! I know. Swedish nationalism and ethnocentrism comes to the forefront yet again.
Sweden doing things better than the US says nothing about nationalism and has nothing to do about puffing up Sweden.
It's just shows how awful the US is. #bananarepublic
Yep, your comments are the very definition of those two nouns
Nope.
But I get your tries to grasp after straws.
Sweden has what @brianlux proposed. Nothing more than that.
Pumpkin puss.
I’m not going to do this dance again, but you are a master at twisting your words after the fact. Now you say, “Sweden has what Brian proposed and nothing more than that.” If it’s “nothing more than that,” you could have left your post alone after the copy/pasted part. But nope. You felt inclined to show how the US once again is inferior. It’s cool man. You like ruffling feathers but I don’t think many are getting ruffled anymore. It’s all far too commonplace at this point it almost goes unnoticed.
It was a tounge-in-cheek line because of the discussions that has been on this board lately. Nothing more than that. I believe most people get that. But shown by some people stopping by here with some nationalistic flagwaving american pride blinding them they can't take that. Disrespecting 'murica etc.
Peeps.
Says the guy who literally flies the swedish flag on this site. Hilarious.
I don't.
Pointing out how awful the US is has nothing to do with being nationalistic. You ever see me waving anything when talking about other developed countries?
Grandstanding, like you do, about the US is nationalistic. Because you are defending awful because "b-b-but greatest experiment".
Midtier country is a midtier country.
Low tier poster is a low tier poster. How the hell are you still here?
Ha! I know. Swedish nationalism and ethnocentrism comes to the forefront yet again.
Sweden doing things better than the US says nothing about nationalism and has nothing to do about puffing up Sweden.
It's just shows how awful the US is. #bananarepublic
Yep, your comments are the very definition of those two nouns
Nope.
But I get your tries to grasp after straws.
Sweden has what @brianlux proposed. Nothing more than that.
Pumpkin puss.
I’m not going to do this dance again, but you are a master at twisting your words after the fact. Now you say, “Sweden has what Brian proposed and nothing more than that.” If it’s “nothing more than that,” you could have left your post alone after the copy/pasted part. But nope. You felt inclined to show how the US once again is inferior. It’s cool man. You like ruffling feathers but I don’t think many are getting ruffled anymore. It’s all far too commonplace at this point it almost goes unnoticed.
It was a tounge-in-cheek line because of the discussions that has been on this board lately. Nothing more than that. I believe most people get that. But shown by some people stopping by here with some nationalistic flagwaving american pride blinding them they can't take that. Disrespecting 'murica etc.
Peeps.
Says the guy who literally flies the swedish flag on this site. Hilarious.
I don't.
Pointing out how awful the US is has nothing to do with being nationalistic. You ever see me waving anything when talking about other developed countries?
Grandstanding, like you do, about the US is nationalistic. Because you are defending awful because "b-b-but greatest experiment".
Midtier country is a midtier country.
Low tier poster is a low tier poster. How the hell are you still here?
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
"They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
He/She: Gender-specific only
Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.
I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
I always thought I was speaking properly when I would refer to someone with an unknown gender as “he or she,” but apparently I need to clean up the way I speak. For example, if I’m going to a meeting and I know there will be someone there that I have not met, I might say, “will he or she be attending today?” But I guess this could come across as offensive? I don’t know what to do anymore.
Don't worry about it.
Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.
We're in this thing together.
Good points and agreed. I still do have genuine interest in knowing what the proper way to speak in 2019 is though. I know my way of saying “he or she” was grammatically correct at one point (maybe still is?), but it seems that it is no longer correct (politically?). Not being a smart ass. Just wondering what is deemed appropriate these days and I haven’t seen a consensus or definitive answer. I guess “they” is the temporary winner.
I'd say that at least 70% of the useful things I've learned so far in this life -- that is, things that have actually stuck with me -- were because I fucked up initially.
We have our pronouns in our email signatures at my office. I have disabled my email signature because I'm someone who doesn't care about that personally for myself. As I mentioned, Flower is my spirit animal. And I can sign my own damn name if I feel like it.
But I can certainly understand why identity is important to a great many people in the current climate. We've had a few office- or department-wide emails go around just to help everyone pronounce certain coworkers' names. The emails were sent by the individuals who have those names, and they explained how their names were very important to them, their families and significant to their religious and/or cultural heritage. They welcomed people to stop by their desks and ask them how to pronounce their names and have a conversation about it. One of the senders sits near me, and she has had quite a few people stop by and engage with her. And yeah, I fucked up her name for a while, too.
I really wish my workplace was that progressive and open. we have so many people whose names no one can fucking pronounce, and we're expected to just figure it out.
Have you ever had someone be offended by asking them how to pronounce? I ask out of genuine curiosity and goodwill and it has, fortunately, always been met with a lovely conversation.
So many people have a weird and ignorant fear of pronouncing words outside of the English accent here in American. We anglicize every word and place to a shocking degree. I'm sure I've told this story here, but my best friend is a Brazilian named Ricardo. Portuguese pronunciation is Heecarrdo. He introduces himself with his natural, given name, and every other dumb motherfucker he's ever met in America acted confused at Heecarrdo and changed it to Ricardo. Not even R"ee"cardo, but Rick-ardo. Even his host family, 15 years later, still calling him Rick-ardo. I met a boy who introduced himself as Heecarrdo, I said "Heecarrdo, did I say that right?" and he looked at me like I was Albert Fucking Einstein for getting it right lol
Comments
www.headstonesband.com
Yup, someone did, since a kid can't get their name legally changed on their own.
Right.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The English language just doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun for people, and we haven't been able to come up with one that has gotten widespread acceptance, so we're left with "they". Not ideal but oh well.
Fair enough
And interestingly, the very definition of bullying includes the aspect of vulnerability and a perceived power differential, so yes, vulnerability is a main criteria.
- "They" is a weird word to use, but it's been a go to word for a long time (i.e., since we stopped defaulting to male) when gender is uncertain. "When's your new teaching assistant coming?" "THEY are coming next month" would be the response if that person's identity is unknown. From a grammar perspective it's odd. And ideally there'd be a gender-neutral term, but for whatever reason that's not how our language evolved. What's even stranger is:
- He/She: Gender-specific only
- Sibling/brother/sister, parent/mother/father: gender-specific and neutral term
- Cousin: neutral term only.
In any case, taking this story at face value, the student needs to pick a name.I appreciate the parents accepting and supporting the student (see...need a gender-neutral term) but part of that support needs to be preparation for going out into the world. This includes the fact that you're going to need a name to identify yourself with, for a myriad of reasons.
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
www.headstonesband.com
I still don't believe the story as relayed, and I still don't mean any offense to you or your loved ones, though I understand those two statements don't fit together very well.
Just fuck up, apologize if necessary, listen to those who correct/guide you, apply what you have learned, and move forward a wiser person.
We're in this thing together.
I will respect your identity, but don't expect me to waste my time finding out. the onus is on you to let it be known or to correct me.
My real name is Paul. A woman at work has a nickname for fucking everybody. for reasons unknown to sane people, she calls me Paula. would that be offensive to someone with gender identity issues, thinking it's making fun of that?
www.headstonesband.com
My comment on doing away with pronouns is only half-jest.
I started shying away from them years ago and moved more towards just always using a person's name...at the time it had nothing to do with gender, it was just about keeping conversations straight in a large, interconnected social circle. After getting used to it, it almost feels disrespectful to reduce an individual to a nearly anonymous he/she.
We have our pronouns in our email signatures at my office. I have disabled my email signature because I'm someone who doesn't care about that personally for myself. As I mentioned, Flower is my spirit animal. And I can sign my own damn name if I feel like it.
But I can certainly understand why identity is important to a great many people in the current climate. We've had a few office- or department-wide emails go around just to help everyone pronounce certain coworkers' names. The emails were sent by the individuals who have those names, and they explained how their names were very important to them, their families and significant to their religious and/or cultural heritage. They welcomed people to stop by their desks and ask them how to pronounce their names and have a conversation about it. One of the senders sits near me, and she has had quite a few people stop by and engage with her. And yeah, I fucked up her name for a while, too.
www.headstonesband.com
So many people have a weird and ignorant fear of pronouncing words outside of the English accent here in American.
We anglicize every word and place to a shocking degree.
I'm sure I've told this story here, but my best friend is a Brazilian named Ricardo.
Portuguese pronunciation is Heecarrdo.
He introduces himself with his natural, given name, and every other dumb motherfucker he's ever met in America acted confused at Heecarrdo and changed it to Ricardo. Not even R"ee"cardo, but Rick-ardo. Even his host family, 15 years later, still calling him Rick-ardo.
I met a boy who introduced himself as Heecarrdo, I said "Heecarrdo, did I say that right?" and he looked at me like I was Albert Fucking Einstein for getting it right lol