The Inexcusable Travesty of Mt. Everest

brianlux

benjs said:

brianlux said:

Twenty two years after the publication of John Krakauer's Into Thin Air, the telling of the several death on Mt. Everest due, at least in part, to overcrowding on the mountain, Everest is still plagued by lines of Disneyland like tourism.  This is a travesty!  The death toll on Everest this month so far is now 10.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48407433

Brian, have you visited Nepal? Extreme levels of corruption and poverty likely make it difficult for the Nepali government to shift their priorities, as frustrating and defeatist as it is to say that. They need this income. They lack skills, resources, education, and most importantly, quality leadership. I’m not saying this kind of negligence should be permitted, but I’m saying that it’s unrealistic to expect change from within. This is a country that desperately needs leadership help.

I have not, Ben, although I would love to see the Himalayas.   Yes, I agree that tourist money is important in Nepal but my contention is that too much of it is siphoned off my criminals and people in power.  There has to be a way to help the average poor out there without desecrating and ruining a Natural Beauty ("should be preserved like a monument to nature" -Neil Young).

brianlux

Bentleyspop said:

brianlux said:

Smellyman said:

this could be in the Idiot Thread.

Human idiocy knows no bounds.

Good call!

As a rock climber and occasional mtn climber I'm going to dispute this.
However,  what is currently happening on Everest is a conflagration of multiple things. Kind of like a perfect storm...
Too many permits issued by both China and Nepal.
Too small a window of good weather in which to make summit attempts.
Too many "high-altitude " tourists.
Too many expidition companies trying to make all their money in one short season 
Etc etc

Please keep in mind that this is not necessarily an annual or daily occurrence. Two days before the viral images of the high altitude traffic jam of more than 200 climbers trying to summit was taken, 14 climbers summited.
This is also not a new thing. During the 2012 climbing season  on May 19, 2012 247 climbers summited in one day. Don't  think anyone died that day.

That's for certain.

brianlux

Bentleyspop said:

josevolution said:

I have no pitty for the people who have died there they all know the dangers of the climb ! The government should institute a ban for at least 5 yrs and only allow climbers who will clean up the mess period ..you wanna climb clean the mountain for a season and then you get to climb again your name gets on a list ...

I feel I need to come on here and defend mountaineering. There is a concerted effort to clean up and keep the mountain clean. Leaving the bodies is based on tradition and safety issues. 

https://twitter.com/carolinegleich/status/1128293000948457472?s=19

I by no means intended here to disparage mountaineering.  I am totally fascinated by it, have done some lesser climbs myself in the past and mountaineering literature is one of my favorite reading genres. What I will criticize harshly is the kind of egocentric, anthropocentric disregard of nature by hordes of well-to-do folks who just want that big Everest notch on their hiking stick as well as the irresponsible people in power in those countries that do not enforce reasonable  limits to the assault of places like Everest.  There are plenty of more adventurous and more beautiful climbs in the world and if mountaineers are concerned about helping poor people in poor countries, they would climb those peaks where tourism is less frequent.  Again, I would refer anyone interested in this to the Steve Swenson book I mentioned above.

benjs

brianlux said:

benjs said:

brianlux said:

Twenty two years after the publication of John Krakauer's Into Thin Air, the telling of the several death on Mt. Everest due, at least in part, to overcrowding on the mountain, Everest is still plagued by lines of Disneyland like tourism.  This is a travesty!  The death toll on Everest this month so far is now 10.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48407433

Brian, have you visited Nepal? Extreme levels of corruption and poverty likely make it difficult for the Nepali government to shift their priorities, as frustrating and defeatist as it is to say that. They need this income. They lack skills, resources, education, and most importantly, quality leadership. I’m not saying this kind of negligence should be permitted, but I’m saying that it’s unrealistic to expect change from within. This is a country that desperately needs leadership help.

I have not, Ben, although I would love to see the Himalayas.   Yes, I agree that tourist money is important in Nepal but my contention is that too much of it is siphoned off my criminals and people in power.  There has to be a way to help the average poor out there without desecrating and ruining a Natural Beauty ("should be preserved like a monument to nature" -Neil Young).

I hope I’m not coming across as being in disagreement, because I’m not. I’m just saying that the path to betterment of the nation isn’t coming from their leadership, and I fear that unless someone outside of Nepal finds a way to inject change in ways that sustain the nation, the changes won’t come from within.

I know this is a discussion board, but I find it frustrating sometimes when we talk about things that should happen with full knowledge of the fact that they won’t without a significant catalyst for change. How do we channel this great dialogue and make it into tangible change? That’s the question that ultimately I wish more of us were focused on. We debate the topics, and agree or disagree, we come to a point where we need to mobilize - and are not seemingly able to do that in this modern world. That reality needs to shift if we’re to keep this planet that we really don’t deserve. From my perspective, I truly don’t care anymore. I will do my best within my means for the planet, with the acceptance that the world will likely be returned to better species than ours - I just hope we don’t do them the irreparable harm we’ve done to each other or Earth.

brianlux

benjs said:

brianlux said:

benjs said:

brianlux said:

Twenty two years after the publication of John Krakauer's Into Thin Air, the telling of the several death on Mt. Everest due, at least in part, to overcrowding on the mountain, Everest is still plagued by lines of Disneyland like tourism.  This is a travesty!  The death toll on Everest this month so far is now 10.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48407433

Brian, have you visited Nepal? Extreme levels of corruption and poverty likely make it difficult for the Nepali government to shift their priorities, as frustrating and defeatist as it is to say that. They need this income. They lack skills, resources, education, and most importantly, quality leadership. I’m not saying this kind of negligence should be permitted, but I’m saying that it’s unrealistic to expect change from within. This is a country that desperately needs leadership help.

I have not, Ben, although I would love to see the Himalayas.   Yes, I agree that tourist money is important in Nepal but my contention is that too much of it is siphoned off my criminals and people in power.  There has to be a way to help the average poor out there without desecrating and ruining a Natural Beauty ("should be preserved like a monument to nature" -Neil Young).

I hope I’m not coming across as being in disagreement, because I’m not. I’m just saying that the path to betterment of the nation isn’t coming from their leadership, and I fear that unless someone outside of Nepal finds a way to inject change in ways that sustain the nation, the changes won’t come from within.

I know this is a discussion board, but I find it frustrating sometimes when we talk about things that should happen with full knowledge of the fact that they won’t without a significant catalyst for change. How do we channel this great dialogue and make it into tangible change? That’s the question that ultimately I wish more of us were focused on. We debate the topics, and agree or disagree, we come to a point where we need to mobilize - and are not seemingly able to do that in this modern world. That reality needs to shift if we’re to keep this planet that we really don’t deserve. From my perspective, I truly don’t care anymore. I will do my best within my means for the planet, with the acceptance that the world will likely be returned to better species than ours - I just hope we don’t do them the irreparable harm we’ve done to each other or Earth.

Ben, you have a way of making points that are both poignant, thought provoking and mildly troubling- but I mean that in a good way.  Yes, we desperately need to find ways to move forward from those things that are harmful to the planet and unjust for many people. 

I've written letters, called my representatives, attended state legislative meeting, even organized a gathering on the steps of city hall to raise awareness of global warming and yet little seems to have changed.  With the current administration, things even seem worse.  But I don't see quitting or giving up as a solution.  To yet again (at the risk of sounding cheer leading) bring up a good example of the power of action, I'll mention Greta Thunberg.  She is a fine example of how one person can be a catalyst for change.  We can't all be catalysts, but we can stand behind those who are, lend our voices to a good cause, donate what time and money we can to change, and most of, don't give up on hope.  It's the only thing that makes sense. 

I think we've already done irreparable harm to the planet in this era, maybe even this epoch.  But time is on earth's side.  Given the vast amounts of time left for this planet, I think it is likely it will find it's balance again as nature has in the past, even after cataclysmic damage inflicted on it by major volcanic activity, large meteor strikes, etc.  But it is too bad we humans will probably cause our own demise prematurely.

So how do we do this in regards to the topic at hand?  First thing I would suggest is that if anyone here is into big mountain climbing, I would look into joining an expedition group that specifically strives to be responsible on the mountain.  I'm not in the game myself, but if I were, I would seek out an organization that is aware of the crooked politics in these mountain regions and who do what they can to see that expedition dollars go to those in need where possible.  Again, this is what Steven Swenson did during his heyday as an expedition leader.  I would look for an organization that emphasizes the "pack it in, pack it out" motto as well as safety first, strict adherence to following turn around time (which the otherwise great mountain climber Rob Hall did not do, costing his and his client their lives), and who are not focused on over-crowed treks like the one seen in the photo at the top of the page. 

PJ_Soul

I don't even understand why so many climbers even want to do it at this point. Look at that ridiculous lineup to reach the peak. If I were them, that sight would turn me off of the desire to reach the peak at all. When you see that many people lined up to reach that goal you yourself are waiting to achieve ... I dunno, I feel like that would cause it to lose all meaning, psychologically or emotionally.

bbiggs

PJ_Soul said:

I don't even understand why so many climbers even want to do it at this point. Look at that ridiculous lineup to reach the peak. If I were them, that sight would turn me off of the desire to reach the peak at all. When you see that many people lined up to reach that goal you yourself are waiting to achieve ... I dunno, I feel like that would cause it to lose all meaning, psychologically or emotionally.

I totally agree with this.  It looks like a line to get on a rollercoaster; not to reach the highest peak on planet Earth.  That, to me, would take away from the experience. This over-crowding is sad.  I was not aware that this was taking place.  

Jason P

There is better gear and more access to the wild then there was 20 years ago.  As a climber, I have to imagine Everest is one of the biggest goals and achievements one could have.  Once you get there it may be your only chance ever.   The line is long in the picture buy that is a really a small amount of people (if you are sampling from the entire world population) that may be held up by one or two people that are experiencing severe altitude issues.

One issue is the people.  Another issue is everyone is dead-set focus on reaching the top.  Main issue is mother nature.  People know there is danger and death lurking, but from my experience you never actually believe it is yourself that will end up as a casualty.  Always some other poor schmoe ... usually takes a close call to slap some sense into you.

I've never aspired to climb as I've tried it and don't experience any rush or thrill from it.  I have an immense respect for gravity.  But I've gone through a hard-core backpacking phase and I know the mentality of pushing and pushing until sometimes you are in a pickle that your not prepared for.  Sometimes success is realizing when to retreat.

hedonist

PJ_Soul said:

I don't even understand why so many climbers even want to do it at this point. Look at that ridiculous lineup to reach the peak. If I were them, that sight would turn me off of the desire to reach the peak at all. When you see that many people lined up to reach that goal you yourself are waiting to achieve ... I dunno, I feel like that would cause it to lose all meaning, psychologically or emotionally.

Sounds a lot like what I've heard about PJ merch lines

cp3iverson

Before that picture i always thought Everest was a very lonely quiet climb   

That looks really dangerous.  Im guessing that time is of the essence with these things and that line has to both slow people down and make them rush.  

brianlux

hedonist said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't even understand why so many climbers even want to do it at this point. Look at that ridiculous lineup to reach the peak. If I were them, that sight would turn me off of the desire to reach the peak at all. When you see that many people lined up to reach that goal you yourself are waiting to achieve ... I dunno, I feel like that would cause it to lose all meaning, psychologically or emotionally.

Sounds a lot like what I've heard about PJ merch lines

 

cp3iverson

.

Smellyman

Just show people Lukla airport.  Certainly keep me from going.  That and not even wanting to hike 3 stories of steps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LD5JhGMxow

Meltdown99

Smellyman said:

Just show people Lukla airport.  Certainly keep me from going.  That and not even wanting to hike 3 stories of steps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LD5JhGMxow

Seems like a fine airport...jeesh.  No thanks...

mickeyrat

Meltdown99 said:

Smellyman said:

Just show people Lukla airport.  Certainly keep me from going.  That and not even wanting to hike 3 stories of steps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LD5JhGMxow

Seems like a fine airport...jeesh.  No thanks...

seen videos of worse..

tbergs

Bentleyspop said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Isn't it a safety issue that people who are not experienced enough are allowed to climb/get permits?

It is a major safety issue.
They are often referred to  as "high-altitude tourists"

I for one would love to make an attempt on Everest.
I have mountaineering experience,  I do well at high altitude,  I understand the ins and outs, rights and wrongs of mountaineering. But have yet to do anything close to an 8,000er (mountain above 25,000 ft above sea level). I don't  have enough experience to make such an attempt without risking my life and that of others on the mountain. Wish others did the same.

It is disappointing that all it takes is money to do some of these things that should require prior experience. I would have loved to sky dive from more than 10,000 feet my first time, but the place I went required several jumps to earn the higher dives. I'm sure if I had a lot of money and had gone somewhere else, I could have just paid to do a 20,000+ dive, but I am good with the experience I got.

On a similar note, when my wife and I hiked up Mt. St. Helens a few years ago, I applied for a permit well in advance because they only issue 100 a day. The day we did it, less than 15 total people hiked it and we barely saw anyone except for a small group at the top ahead of us. It is a superbly clean hike and was a glorious October day. An amazing experience. I would say you probably don't need a whole lot of experience for that hike/mountaineering, but some of the people we saw looked ill prepared. I had done my homework on what to expect, but it was clear some just showed up having never done a hike of that type. Sometimes it's just really annoying having to share these sacred places with people who clearly are doing it as part of a checklist or for bragging rights. They dress incorrectly, play their stupid bluetooth speaker or phone music out loud as they hike and don't pack out what they brought in. They ruin it for everyone else.

For me, it's like a religious experience. Taking in the fresh air, views and rugged beauty of the terrain that pushes your body to feel alive. The idea of Everest intrigues me, but I would never do it because of the risks and cost. There are several lower altitude peaks that are much more rewarding in my opinion.

brianlux

tbergs said:

Bentleyspop said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Isn't it a safety issue that people who are not experienced enough are allowed to climb/get permits?

It is a major safety issue.
They are often referred to  as "high-altitude tourists"

I for one would love to make an attempt on Everest.
I have mountaineering experience,  I do well at high altitude,  I understand the ins and outs, rights and wrongs of mountaineering. But have yet to do anything close to an 8,000er (mountain above 25,000 ft above sea level). I don't  have enough experience to make such an attempt without risking my life and that of others on the mountain. Wish others did the same.

It is disappointing that all it takes is money to do some of these things that should require prior experience. I would have loved to sky dive from more than 10,000 feet my first time, but the place I went required several jumps to earn the higher dives. I'm sure if I had a lot of money and had gone somewhere else, I could have just paid to do a 20,000+ dive, but I am good with the experience I got.

On a similar note, when my wife and I hiked up Mt. St. Helens a few years ago, I applied for a permit well in advance because they only issue 100 a day. The day we did it, less than 15 total people hiked it and we barely saw anyone except for a small group at the top ahead of us. It is a superbly clean hike and was a glorious October day. An amazing experience. I would say you probably don't need a whole lot of experience for that hike/mountaineering, but some of the people we saw looked ill prepared. I had done my homework on what to expect, but it was clear some just showed up having never done a hike of that type. Sometimes it's just really annoying having to share these sacred places with people who clearly are doing it as part of a checklist or for bragging rights. They dress incorrectly, play their stupid bluetooth speaker or phone music out loud as they hike and don't pack out what they brought in. They ruin it for everyone else.

For me, it's like a religious experience. Taking in the fresh air, views and rugged beauty of the terrain that pushes your body to feel alive. The idea of Everest intrigues me, but I would never do it because of the risks and cost. There are several lower altitude peaks that are much more rewarding in my opinion.

Sound like a great experience, T. 

I feel the same way.  Hiking to the top of Pyramid Peak in the Crystal range of the Sierras, and Round Top were great experiences because even though they aren't as challenging as a lot of climbs, they are much less crowded than many others and doing them with just one or two other people and running into no one else made them a special kind of outing.  But both were about 15 years ago and seeing the number of tourists in the Sierras surge over the last several years, it's getting harder to get away from the hoards so doing them and not running into a lot of other people might be iffy.  Over- population... but that's another subject.

tbergs

brianlux said:

tbergs said:

Bentleyspop said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Isn't it a safety issue that people who are not experienced enough are allowed to climb/get permits?

It is a major safety issue.
They are often referred to  as "high-altitude tourists"

I for one would love to make an attempt on Everest.
I have mountaineering experience,  I do well at high altitude,  I understand the ins and outs, rights and wrongs of mountaineering. But have yet to do anything close to an 8,000er (mountain above 25,000 ft above sea level). I don't  have enough experience to make such an attempt without risking my life and that of others on the mountain. Wish others did the same.

It is disappointing that all it takes is money to do some of these things that should require prior experience. I would have loved to sky dive from more than 10,000 feet my first time, but the place I went required several jumps to earn the higher dives. I'm sure if I had a lot of money and had gone somewhere else, I could have just paid to do a 20,000+ dive, but I am good with the experience I got.

On a similar note, when my wife and I hiked up Mt. St. Helens a few years ago, I applied for a permit well in advance because they only issue 100 a day. The day we did it, less than 15 total people hiked it and we barely saw anyone except for a small group at the top ahead of us. It is a superbly clean hike and was a glorious October day. An amazing experience. I would say you probably don't need a whole lot of experience for that hike/mountaineering, but some of the people we saw looked ill prepared. I had done my homework on what to expect, but it was clear some just showed up having never done a hike of that type. Sometimes it's just really annoying having to share these sacred places with people who clearly are doing it as part of a checklist or for bragging rights. They dress incorrectly, play their stupid bluetooth speaker or phone music out loud as they hike and don't pack out what they brought in. They ruin it for everyone else.

For me, it's like a religious experience. Taking in the fresh air, views and rugged beauty of the terrain that pushes your body to feel alive. The idea of Everest intrigues me, but I would never do it because of the risks and cost. There are several lower altitude peaks that are much more rewarding in my opinion.

Sound like a great experience, T. 

I feel the same way.  Hiking to the top of Pyramid Peak in the Crystal range of the Sierras, and Round Top were great experiences because even though they aren't as challenging as a lot of climbs, they are much less crowded than many others and doing them with just one or two other people and running into no one else made them a special kind of outing.  But both were about 15 years ago and seeing the number of tourists in the Sierras surge over the last several years, it's getting harder to get away from the hoards so doing them and not running into a lot of other people might be iffy.  Over- population... but that's another subject.

It was great.

Definitely a lot of people to compete with for some of these places these days. It's why we mainly take vacations in September or October. You don't have to deal with all the Griswold family vacationers who think it's ok to just walk up to wild elk, moose and bison so they can get a nice selfie. It's why I hate zoos. Yes, I want my kids to enjoy seeing these beautiful creatures, but it's usually also really depressing because of the stupid humans who don't truly appreciate it or respect it.

oftenreading

Some words from a climber who summitted and survived Everest during this latest climbing window:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/everest-deaths-chris-dare-overcrowding-1.5152476

It sounds horrific. No way would I ever want to go through that "just to say I did". My climbing/hiking experiences have been along the lines of what tbergs describes, and that's the way I want to keep them. 

Meltdown99

mickeyrat said:

Meltdown99 said:

Smellyman said:

Just show people Lukla airport.  Certainly keep me from going.  That and not even wanting to hike 3 stories of steps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LD5JhGMxow

Seems like a fine airport...jeesh.  No thanks...

seen videos of worse..

I don't disagree...I have never even had a remote interest in visiting Everest...that airport confirms I will never visit.  LOL