Notre-Dame Cathedral Fire

HughFreakingDillon

F Me In The Brain said:

I laugh at the swing between the start of the thread and what was conveyed (reactions from a place of caring/loss) to what is being conveyed on Pg 4 of this thread (fuck the Catholics, they are molesters, the Church should pay for it all, people should be donating instead to [insert your favorite cause here])

This place needs a fire to clean out some of the bitter and angry people.    Have a fucking heart, already. 

who is bitter and angry? sorry I just don't have a connection to a building, but I do have a connection to actual living things. I just think it lends to the larger conversation of the priorities of human beings as a whole that, in my opinion, are totally skewed. 

my wife, on the other hand, a catholic and someone who has been there, was saddened by it and I understand why. 

the garbage patch isn't my favourite cause. it's a cause that would be similar in cost. 

Meltdown99

I would say the people who are saying it would be better if that money was spent on people or the Oceans do have a heart...it was a beautiful building, no doubt...but it survived the French Revolution and 2 World Wars...eventually its luck had to run out...

And the Catholic Religion is offensive to many people...

F Me In The Brain

No apologies - you be you.  It is all we can do.  (Hopefully that is a good thing, for most of us.)

I am fine with leaving my statement out there.

HughFreakingDillon

I'm just being honest that I don't personally have an emotional connection to it, and I understand why some do, but I don't understand why others do. 

And then I also watched 2 episodes of Our Planet last night, and it hit me even harder that the richest don't give a flying fuck (relative to the Notre Dame issue) about the place that is our only habitibal home and it is dying at our hands. 

I understand the false equivalency argument. I do. Just saying sometimes you feel a way you might not totally understand because it flies against convention, but then something else puts it in perspective. 

Tristelune

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

I laugh at the swing between the start of the thread and what was conveyed (reactions from a place of caring/loss) to what is being conveyed on Pg 4 of this thread (fuck the Catholics, they are molesters, the Church should pay for it all, people should be donating instead to [insert your favorite cause here])

This place needs a fire to clean out some of the bitter and angry people.    Have a fucking heart, already. 

who is bitter and angry? sorry I just don't have a connection to a building, but I do have a connection to actual living things. 

the garbage patch isn't my favourite cause. it's a cause that would be similar in cost. 

I get the connection with the living above the stones and material things but the endless imagination regarding what others should do with their money instead of this or that is annoying (not targeting you in particular we have the same debates here) 

HughFreakingDillon

Tristelune said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

I laugh at the swing between the start of the thread and what was conveyed (reactions from a place of caring/loss) to what is being conveyed on Pg 4 of this thread (fuck the Catholics, they are molesters, the Church should pay for it all, people should be donating instead to [insert your favorite cause here])

This place needs a fire to clean out some of the bitter and angry people.    Have a fucking heart, already. 

who is bitter and angry? sorry I just don't have a connection to a building, but I do have a connection to actual living things. 

the garbage patch isn't my favourite cause. it's a cause that would be similar in cost. 

I get the connection with the living above the stones and material things but the endless imagination regarding what others should do with their money instead of this or that is annoying (not targeting you in particular we have the same debates here) 

I'm not judging what anyone SHOULD do with their money. it is their money and none of my business. I just find it confusing that people flock to a cause like this and not actual pressing matters of human survival. 

HughFreakingDillon

Tristelune said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

I laugh at the swing between the start of the thread and what was conveyed (reactions from a place of caring/loss) to what is being conveyed on Pg 4 of this thread (fuck the Catholics, they are molesters, the Church should pay for it all, people should be donating instead to [insert your favorite cause here])

This place needs a fire to clean out some of the bitter and angry people.    Have a fucking heart, already. 

who is bitter and angry? sorry I just don't have a connection to a building, but I do have a connection to actual living things. 

the garbage patch isn't my favourite cause. it's a cause that would be similar in cost. 

I get the connection with the living above the stones and material things but the endless imagination regarding what others should do with their money instead of this or that is annoying (not targeting you in particular we have the same debates here) 

and further, I often find myself judging MYSELF over matters of imagining what I spend my money on vs what I could spend it on. Hmm....that $80 record I don't need, or giving it to a worthy cause? Of course I'm allowed to do with my money what I wish, but sometimes these things give me pause. and there's nothing wrong with that. 

HughFreakingDillon

I just really don't understand all the hostility and anger that seems to run rampant here lately. are different opinions not allowed anymore? if my priorities are different than yours, I'm heartless, I'm an asshole, I'm a trump supporter, I'm a fucking joke, etc. the list goes in. 

if you don't fall in line with the consensus, you need to be purged in a figurative fire of the forum. seriously? this is where we're at?

I could see if someone died and I shouted "fuck the catholics", but jesus, it's wood and brick and mortar. heaven for fend, I'm a monster. 

Tristelune

HughFreakingDillon said:

Tristelune said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

I laugh at the swing between the start of the thread and what was conveyed (reactions from a place of caring/loss) to what is being conveyed on Pg 4 of this thread (fuck the Catholics, they are molesters, the Church should pay for it all, people should be donating instead to [insert your favorite cause here])

This place needs a fire to clean out some of the bitter and angry people.    Have a fucking heart, already. 

who is bitter and angry? sorry I just don't have a connection to a building, but I do have a connection to actual living things. 

the garbage patch isn't my favourite cause. it's a cause that would be similar in cost. 

I get the connection with the living above the stones and material things but the endless imagination regarding what others should do with their money instead of this or that is annoying (not targeting you in particular we have the same debates here) 

I'm not judging what anyone SHOULD do with their money. it is their money and none of my business. I just find it confusing that people flock to a cause like this and not actual pressing matters of human survival. 

I guess it’s a momentum thing, it’s emotional and quite possibly overreaction too. Though I remember the great Indian Tsunami in 2004 there were so much donations (in France but was certainly the case elsewhere) that the NGOs asked to stop the donations because they couldn’t use the huge load of money (logistical limits) same thing applied for volunteering missions. Shows that people care about the living too but it’s the momentum, the emotional thing that creates the drive. It’s way harder to have people concerned when it comes to day to day effort and rational behavior toward the planet.

HughFreakingDillon

Tristelune said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Tristelune said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

F Me In The Brain said:

I laugh at the swing between the start of the thread and what was conveyed (reactions from a place of caring/loss) to what is being conveyed on Pg 4 of this thread (fuck the Catholics, they are molesters, the Church should pay for it all, people should be donating instead to [insert your favorite cause here])

This place needs a fire to clean out some of the bitter and angry people.    Have a fucking heart, already. 

who is bitter and angry? sorry I just don't have a connection to a building, but I do have a connection to actual living things. 

the garbage patch isn't my favourite cause. it's a cause that would be similar in cost. 

I get the connection with the living above the stones and material things but the endless imagination regarding what others should do with their money instead of this or that is annoying (not targeting you in particular we have the same debates here) 

I'm not judging what anyone SHOULD do with their money. it is their money and none of my business. I just find it confusing that people flock to a cause like this and not actual pressing matters of human survival. 

I guess it’s a momentum thing, it’s emotional and quite possibly overreaction too. Though I remember the great Indian Tsunami in 2004 there were so much donations (in France but was certainly the case elsewhere) that the NGOs asked to stop the donations because they couldn’t use the huge load of money (logistical limits) same thing applied for volunteering missions. Shows that people care about the living too but it’s the momentum, the emotional thing that creates the drive. It’s way harder to have people concerned when it comes to day to day effort and rational behavior toward the planet.

good point. 

tbergs

HughFreakingDillon said:

I'm just being honest that I don't personally have an emotional connection to it, and I understand why some do, but I don't understand why others do. 

And then I also watched 2 episodes of Our Planet last night, and it hit me even harder that the richest don't give a flying fuck (relative to the Notre Dame issue) about the place that is our only habitibal home and it is dying at our hands. 

I understand the false equivalency argument. I do. Just saying sometimes you feel a way you might not totally understand because it flies against convention, but then something else puts it in perspective. 

It's a complicated conundrum. I do wish people would donate more money to things like this https://www.theoceancleanup.com/updates/, but I also understand that everyone has a different value system and differ on what is more important to them. Unfortunately causes like that also never receive the amount of attention that they should because it is a global problem that needs correcting.

I think the loss of the original structure of Notre-Dame is devastating from a historical perspective and agree with some on here who have stated that there is most likely quite a bit in insurance protections for a building like that, but maybe not exactly what would be needed to get it restored to what it was, so donors feel that their money could help make that happen. Whether right or wrong, that is what they have decided. I think it's important to not put too much value in material objects, but at the same time it's also ok to recognize that not all material objects are similar in importance, meaning and artistic beauty. Fortunate or unfortunate, but structures like Notre-Dame become symbols beyond what they may have initially been intended for so we as people tend to become connected to what it means to reflect back on the history that has taken place since it was first constructed. Walking in to places like that is just a complete mindfuck because it is amazing to think that it was created without modern technology and has so much history. I mean the pyramids are just structures, but if they collapsed I'd be saddened even though I have never been there because of the loss of a physical piece of history that has the ability to transport you back to a different time and way of life.

Anyway, I could go on, but the point is that there is always some sort of negative impact historical imagery can conjure up, but it also allows us to reflect on the mistakes and successes that it may represent.

Jason P

Most super rich people spend around $1B over their life on yachts and maintenance so they can go visit that awesome garbage patch in the ocean.

Jason P

Really, any fund raising could be shamed if you start bringing up vaccinations, garbage in the ocean and sacks of rice.  Thought you were helping out the community by selling tootsie rolls to fund a skate park for local kids??? WRONG!  You my friend, are a monster, and it would only serve you right if someone decides to poop in your front yard every night for the next year.

HughFreakingDillon

Jason P said:

Really, any fund raising could be shamed if you start bringing up vaccinations, garbage in the ocean and sacks of rice.  Thought you were helping out the community by selling tootsie rolls to fund a skate park for local kids??? WRONG!  You my friend, are a monster, and it would only serve you right if someone decides to poop in your front yard every night for the next year.

haha, not exactly. no one is getting $600 million from the world's richest for a skate park by selling tootsie rolls. 

benjs

My understanding is that Notre Dame is a symbol of safe refuge for all. Symbols like that are rare, and desperately needed. I've been outspoken about having no room for religion in my heart, but between the loss of a safe haven, and the loss of a magnificent piece of art (which I consider the entire structure to be), this is a tragedy. Have I been running around showing people clips of the burning building? No - but I still cried (unapologetically), and I have a great deal of sadness for the people of France who are suffering.

For anyone who feels compelled to mourn, or to donate, that's their prerogative. 

brianlux

HughFreakingDillon said:

with the amount of money raised for the rebuild in 24 hours the pacific garbage patches could have been cleaned up. @brianlux

If only!

OnWis97

curmudgeoness said:

cincybearcat said:

I am so bummed about this.  And yet I'm torn about the rebuild.  I guess it was a "working" church....but I kinda think stabilizing the remaining facade and leaving as is would be a potential option.  

I get the statements about the $ and using it on other things.  These national symbols have a lot of value though.  Regardless, it sucks that it caught fire.  Such a loss.  It is my #1 foreign "attraction" (for lack of a better word) that I have been too...well 1 or 2...with Pompeii in the mix.  Such a beautiful church in an amazing city.

Hundreds of millions of dollars were donated by French billionaires. Could they have spent their money differently? Yes, but -- it's their money. I imagine that if something happened to the Statue of Liberty, Warren Buffett or Michael Bloomberg would step up immediately and do something similar -- and they still would have plenty of money left over for humanitarian causes (I don't know anything about how the French spend their wealth, but you can google Buffett and the "Giving Pledge").

As for the cost of the renovation, a billion dollars sounds like a lot. But I don't think it is. I nearly lost my mind some fifteen years ago when the town where I lived announced that it was going to cost $100M to remodel the existing high school. We are talking about a much larger, much, much older building, on very expensive real estate in an urban setting. Countless experts and specialists will be needed to do everything the right way. And the project could take many years.

Whenever someone is generous with time or money, people are on hand to tell them how it would have been better spent...but if they just sit on a pile of money and golf all the time, people leave them alone...go figure.

HughFreakingDillon

OnWis97 said:

curmudgeoness said:

cincybearcat said:

I am so bummed about this.  And yet I'm torn about the rebuild.  I guess it was a "working" church....but I kinda think stabilizing the remaining facade and leaving as is would be a potential option.  

I get the statements about the $ and using it on other things.  These national symbols have a lot of value though.  Regardless, it sucks that it caught fire.  Such a loss.  It is my #1 foreign "attraction" (for lack of a better word) that I have been too...well 1 or 2...with Pompeii in the mix.  Such a beautiful church in an amazing city.

Hundreds of millions of dollars were donated by French billionaires. Could they have spent their money differently? Yes, but -- it's their money. I imagine that if something happened to the Statue of Liberty, Warren Buffett or Michael Bloomberg would step up immediately and do something similar -- and they still would have plenty of money left over for humanitarian causes (I don't know anything about how the French spend their wealth, but you can google Buffett and the "Giving Pledge").

As for the cost of the renovation, a billion dollars sounds like a lot. But I don't think it is. I nearly lost my mind some fifteen years ago when the town where I lived announced that it was going to cost $100M to remodel the existing high school. We are talking about a much larger, much, much older building, on very expensive real estate in an urban setting. Countless experts and specialists will be needed to do everything the right way. And the project could take many years.

Whenever someone is generous with time or money, people are on hand to tell them how it would have been better spent...but if they just sit on a pile of money and golf all the time, people leave them alone...go figure.

everyone has their opinion, and everyone is allowed that. to me, this is a bit different. this isn't the choice of fighting cancer or helping with poverty. this is rebuilding a structure that serves no real human survival need.

I think this qualifies as one of those times where suggestion or criticism is warranted. 

Meltdown99

France no longer has trees tall enough to rebuild Notre-Dame's roof as it was

https://www.thisisinsider.com/french-trees-to-rebuild-notre-dame-are-too-small-2019-4?utm_content=buffer3d887&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-travel&fbclid=IwAR3UmxcAWdp1hLsjSWlNDIDCw4oXNrn0EgbJdxeIs-gj-GpBv54zxR16Z3w

Groupama insurance company is also offering to pay for 1,300 trees to re-build the church frame, which the company says would be 100-year-old oaks from the forests of Normandy, in keeping with the original construction.

HesCalledDyer

Didn't Jesus teach not to want?  Not to build halls of worship. But rather to help those less fortunate.  I kind of agree with the folks saying the donations pouring in could be better spent. If the donors really followed Jesus and his supposed teachings, they would know he'd want them to help the hungry, the sick, the poor, the abused.  I'm not religious but it seems those who are don't follow the actual message they claim to follow & preach to others as much as they like to think.

It is unfortunate from an architectural and artistic perspective, but no lives were lost.  And praying, if that is what one believes in, is free; you don't need a giant cathedral to do so.