The Democratic Candidates

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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    But again, you're ignoring all the other points made about what happens AFTER an ER stabilizes someone.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    edited June 2019
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    That completely did NOT answer my question. And I am absolutely not saying ANY of this just to "trash" America. I only ever say anything about this issue because I am gravely concerned about the welfare of all the people who suffer and even die as a direct result of the US healthcare system. I wish you could stop just being a defensive nationalist flag waver about this issue, and really look at the system itself out of concern for your fellow citizens.
    I have said over and over again across time that I don't claim that the Canadian system is perfect (no healthcare system is). I have always very willingly acknowledged the problems in our system, and have spoken extensively about non-emergency wait times, so I have no clue why you're acting like I haven't acknowledged those things. My point is that those problems absolutely pale in comparison to the problems I'm pointing out in the US system, and the harm it does to Americans. And of course, we are not in the exact same situation as our American colleagues with prescription drugs. Our drugs are cheaper (plus we have pharmacare, plus extended health care, which is either provided by employers, or far cheaper than American insurance) covers a lot of that anyhow.  This Martin person is an idiot. I'm sure you're aware of how many Americans flood over the Canadian border to buy cheaper prescription drugs. So if 1/4 of Canadians might not buy drugs because they can't afford them, just imagine how many Americans don't, with prescription drugs being way more expensive there! WHY DON'T YOU CARE??? You seem to care more about a futile attempt to defend your healthcare system because you're an offended American than you do about the welfare of Americans.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,679
    PJ_Soul said:
    But again, you're ignoring all the other points made about what happens AFTER an ER stabilizes someone.
    We have a big problem in this country with people using ER to treat non ER issues.  This afflicts those with no insurance,  the lower middle class.  Obamacare expansion of Medicaid has helped,  but some Republican states have refused to implement the expansion.  It is a state decision.  
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,060

    Little-known practice of diversion

    Every day as thousands of ambulances zig-zag through city streets, along congested highways and rural roads across the nation, it’s easy to imagine they’re headed to the nearest hospital or to the emergency room best suited to care for the sick or injured person on board.

    Turns out, that’s not always so.

    Emergency departments in hospitals nationwide have been quietly deploying a controversial tactic, turning would-be patients away.

    Officially, it’s called ambulance diversion.

    Hospital officials decide they are too busy and essentially hang a “temporarily closed” sign on the emergency room door, telling ambulances to go elsewhere. 

    In some cases, the crowding is due to a surge of patients. In others, the problem is a poor system for moving patients through the hospital, creating bottlenecks elsewhere that hamper the ER. In other words, hospitals sometimes create their own problem.

    The ambulance carrying Tiffany Tate was sent to a hospital three miles away that offered only limited stroke care.

    A Milwaukee Journal Sentinel review of the 25 largest cities found 16 of them – including nine of the 10 largest – allow ambulance diversion of some kind, though rules governing when patients can be diverted vary widely.

    They include cities such as New York, Phoenix, Chicago, Los Angeles and Knoxville, Tenn.

    No uniform set of rules governs how or when ambulance diversion is used by America’s hospitals.

    No single agency tracks the practice, or measures how frequently hospital doors are closed. No one tracks what happens to the patients who have their treatment delayed.

    In some places where diversion is allowed, officials require hospitals to accept stroke patients even during periods of diversion.

    All the while, study after study has concluded that ambulance diversion poses serious dangers for patients and doesn’t actually solve overcrowding. 

    In the years that followed, emergency rooms became the first-stop for many kinds of care, often minor ailments – fever, dizziness, sprained ankles. Over the past 15 years, emergency room visits have jumped 20 percent, to 137 million last year alone, from 114 million in 2003.

    The crowding problems can be especially acute in urban areas, where many hospitals nationwide have closed, putting extra pressure on the ones that remain. 

    A 2001 report from the U.S. House Committee on Government Reform found diversions were so widespread they represented a threat to emergency medical readiness, including in the event of a terrorist attack.

    A 2017 study found that African-American patients had an increased chance of dying from heart attacks and strokes as hospitals in largely minority neighborhoods were going on diversion more often than others.

    “Diversion has been aggressively abused,” said Corey Slovis, chair of emergency medicine at Vanderbilt University and the medical director for the Nashville Fire Department. 

    Hospitals might turn away ambulances if equipment breaks down or if there is an unexpected problem, such as flooding or electricity being out. 

    Still, the vast majority of diversions, experts say, are because of overcrowding.

    Defenders describe diversion policies as “a necessary evil” intended to protect patients from long, dangerous waits at a crowded hospital. The key, they acknowledge, is to get the ambulance patient to another less-crowded hospital that has the same capabilities.

    The problem: When one hospital closes its doors, it simply spills more water – and sends extra ambulances – onto the next hospital, which may then have to close its doors. Indeed, sometimes hospitals close simply in anticipation of getting more patients.

    “You really don’t want to be brought to a hospital that doesn’t think they can do the job properly,” said Lewis Nelson, a doctor and chair of emergency medicine at Rutgers Medical School in New Jersey.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/17/ambulance-diversion-deadly-consequences/2601373002/

    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,060

    Read the linked article above. 
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,531
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,679

    Read the linked article above. 
    I did... I don't understand how it makes what I believed to be your point.  
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,679
    edited June 2019
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,531
    edited June 2019
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    Like your first lady says: be best. 


    instead of this:

    BUT I GOT AN MRI IN A WEEK!
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,060
    mrussel1 said:

    Read the linked article above. 
    I did... I don't understand how it makes what I believed to be your point.  
    Diversion is a tactic used by hospitals to control costs. There's no regulatory requirements around it and its not against the law. It happens all the time and people die from it. Hospital administrators "determine" when they're too busy and turn ambulances away. The article focuses on a woman who died as a result of diversion. My point is in response to McGruff's:

    PJ_Soul said:
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true? 
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,336
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    You sound small with comments like these. You're better than that.
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,531
    edited June 2019
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    By the way - How many syrian refugers have you helped?
    With you creating the mess down there with your imperialistic ways?

    sweden took in most refugees per capita. and it wasnt our mess. 

    How about you? Per capita?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,679
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    You sound small with comments like these. You're better than that.
    I live in a vile, predatory country.  I live in a substandard democracy.  So the least he can do is thank us for the freedoms he enjoys. Then I'll go back to lying in my vile culture. 
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 Posts: 10,739
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    I watched Juno Beach D-Day commemorations...it was really well done.  I really enjoy the end when the veterans went to the Beach with our PM.  Likely the last time we'll see veterans at Juno Beach and I could tell by how many decided to join our PM on the Beach that they know they will not be back.  All I got to say is Thanks so many brave heroes...who knows what the world would be like without their sacrifice and courage.

    A nice bottle of Swedish Red Wine will be thanks enough?  lol
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,679
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    By the way - How many syrian refugers have you helped?
    With you creating the mess down there with your imperialistic ways?

    sweden took in most refugees per capita. and it wasnt our mess. 

    How about you? Per capita?
    We're all just trying to live up to the moral  standard you set. 
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,531
    edited June 2019
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    By the way - How many syrian refugers have you helped?
    With you creating the mess down there with your imperialistic ways?

    sweden took in most refugees per capita. and it wasnt our mess. 

    How about you? Per capita?
    We're all just trying to live up to the moral  standard you set. 
    Just give me the per capita number. 

    You seem awfully complicit in the murder of thousands of people down there. 

    When are you Gonna say thanks to Sweden for helping out in the biggest refugee crisisin modern Times because America once againeanted to ”play War”?

    never heard one thanks for that?

    And How many have you taken in? Per capita?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,679
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    By the way - How many syrian refugers have you helped?
    With you creating the mess down there with your imperialistic ways?

    sweden took in most refugees per capita. and it wasnt our mess. 

    How about you? Per capita?
    We're all just trying to live up to the moral  standard you set. 
    Just give me the per capita number. 

    You seem awfully complicit in the murder of thousands of people down there. 

    When are you Gonna say thanks to Sweden for helping out in the biggest refugee crisisin modern Times because America once againeanted to ”play War”?

    never heard one thanks for that?

    And How many have you taken in? Per capita?
    I'll meet you over in the Syria thread.  Wait for me.  This is a really important topic for me.  Thanks. 
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,447
    Can you stop comparing the size of your manhoods all the time! I'll even throw in finland so Spiritual doesn't feel quite so inadequate.




    hippiemom = goodness
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,632
    PJ_Soul said:
    But again, you're ignoring all the other points made about what happens AFTER an ER stabilizes someone.
    social workers on staff to help with reduced payment plans or other options available.

    while a person may never see a 0 bill in the end, I think as long as some payment per month is made , it cant be refused.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,531
    edited June 2019
    Can you stop comparing the size of your manhoods all the time! I'll even throw in finland so Spiritual doesn't feel quite so inadequate.




    Ah the old ”we are so big” and ”we are so diverse”

    works as an argument for an american in every topic. 

    And its as stupid every time. 

    - Hey, why are kids being murdered in your schools all the time?
    - Diverse! Big country! 300 millions! 

    -What about garrymandering - arent you suppose to be like... a working democracy?
    - Diverse! Big country! 300 millions! 

    - man so people are dying from aids because they cant afford the vile prices of the drugs? Is that humane?
    - Diverse! Big country! 300 millions! 
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,531
    And we all know you included Finland because it looks like a cock and balls. 

    Haha. :P 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 Posts: 10,739
    I see this thread has become the new "is America the greatest country" thread.  And we all know how that thread ended.

    I will say this about America...Canada could not ask for a better friend/ally/neibhour...we have lived side by side for over 200 years at peace with one another.  Can Europe say that?  Fuck no.  If it was not for the allies SC would be speaking Russian or German today...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    edited June 2019
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    You sound small with comments like these. You're better than that.
    I live in a vile, predatory country.  I live in a substandard democracy.  So the least he can do is thank us for the freedoms he enjoys. Then I'll go back to lying in my vile culture. 
    Come on man. I agree, you're better than this.
    I can't believe none of you who keep doing this have managed to drop it yet. It's been going on for days, and it's just so dumb.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,679
    Can you stop comparing the size of your manhoods all the time! I'll even throw in finland so Spiritual doesn't feel quite so inadequate.




    Ah the old ”we are so big” and ”we are so diverse”

    works as an argument for an american in every topic. 

    And its as stupid every time. 

    - Hey, why are kids being murdered in your schools all the time?
    - Diverse! Big country! 300 millions! 

    -What about garrymandering - arent you suppose to be like... a working democracy?
    - Diverse! Big country! 300 millions! 

    - man so people are dying from aids because they cant afford the vile prices of the drugs? Is that humane?
    - Diverse! Big country! 300 millions! 
    Turning AIDS into a manageable disease was the result of the National Institutes of Health. How vile of them. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,679
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    You sound small with comments like these. You're better than that.
    I live in a vile, predatory country.  I live in a substandard democracy.  So the least he can do is thank us for the freedoms he enjoys. Then I'll go back to lying in my vile culture. 
    Come on man. I agree, you're better than this.
    I told you I was trying.  Trolls aggravate me. 

    And I don't think America is #1 super awesome.  But I have pride in my country just like all of you.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,958
    edited June 2019
    I believe that AIDS research that lead to great leaps forward was an international endeavor/collaboration.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,679
    I see this thread has become the new "is America the greatest country" thread.  And we all know how that thread ended.

    I will say this about America...Canada could not ask for a better friend/ally/neibhour...we have lived side by side for over 200 years at peace with one another.  Can Europe say that?  Fuck no.  If it was not for the allies SC would be speaking Russian or German today...
    I love Canada,  with no qualifiers. 

  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 30,531
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Are there hospitals like that in the United States?
    There are hospitals in the United States that won't perform treatments for people without insurance or money, yes. Are you saying that isn't true?
    Which hospitals?  I m guessing non emergency situations.  

    There are over 1000 private hospitals in America, so I'm not going to list them.
    What do you mean by private? Does that mean not publicly traded or do you mean not owned by the state?  If the latter,  what we're talking about is typically university hospitals.  For example for me,  the largest is MCV, Medical College of Virginia which is attached to Virginia Commonwealth University.  Our major 'private' is Bon Secours which is a Catholic hospital chain.  Both are excellent.  Both treat emergency in all situations.  And both take Medicaid which is the federal program for low income Americans,  covering 74 million people.  
    And there is no two tier system for quality of care. Hospitals love to take Medicare and Medicaid because it's guaranteed payment. 


    Haha, are there actually hospitals that are publicly trades?!?! I don't think so, but since you thought of that, it makes me wonder!
    Yes, I already acknowledged that ERs don't just let people die on their floor without saving them. That is why I brought up what happens after that.

    Of course the is a two-tiered system for quality of care - quality of care included access. Obviously if poor people can't access care, then the quality of their healthcare ain't so great. ;)
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    Why don’t you meet me in the ”official Pearl Jam WW2 geeks” thread and discuss this instead?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,679
    Deal.  I'm there waiting. 
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,632
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Poor people have healthcare.  That's what Medicare is.  But fine,  if you are saying no care means two tier.  I interpreted that as "inferior hospitals" for poor people. 
    I just don’t get this argument, poor people in fact have Medicare. if a hospital or doctor doesn’t take your insurance you just don’t go there.  If a hospital doesn’t take people because they don’t have insurance then go somewhere else. 

    I don't get it. You keep acting like you think everyone gets the healthcare they need in the US. Why??
    Let's not throw stones in glass houses:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/23/canadas-health-care-system-is-a-point-of-national-pride-but-a-study-shows-it-might-be-stalled/?utm_term=.07ee5efc6615
    But its authors note that these glowing statistics conceal abysmal health outcomes for Canada’s 1.7 million indigenous people, who face disproportionately higher rates of suicide, infant mortality and chronic disease. Canada’s Inuit people have a life expectancy that is as much as 15 years shorter than non-indigenous Canadians, and tuberculosis rates that are 270 times higher than those of the Canadian-born, non-indigenous population.

    In an introductory commentary, editors of the Lancet write that these health inequities “suggest a developing world within Canada’s borders.”

    The study is also critical of Canada’s long wait times for nonemergency, specialty procedures like knee and hip replacements and non-urgent advanced imaging — higher than those in America — describing them as a “lightning rod issue” that could undermine support for Medicare among Canadians.

    Canada’s status as the only country in the developed world with universal health-care that does not cover prescription drugs is panned, too. In almost one-quarter of Canadian households, someone is not taking medications because of an inability to pay, according to the Angus Reid Institute, a polling organization.

    “When we compare ourselves to the United States, we feel really great,” Martin said. “But when it comes to prescription drugs, we are in the exact same situation as our American colleagues, when we write out prescriptions and our patients don’t know how they are going to pay for them.”



    You can have a humane system and have problems that need to be fixed. 

    Or you can have a vile predatory system. 

    No one claims that eveything is working perfect. But it can work better - and most importantly it is based on an idea of humans being worth something. 

    Building a system with a philosphy of worth is better than building it on th vile idea of ”money money money”

    yes.

    And. More succesful democracies (everyone?) choose another system. So If you are a betting man - why would you bet on the this one. Hmm. 

    Still waiting on the thank you card. It's Dday 75, perfect time.  Don't forget McGruff and Meltdown, Hedonism and others. 
    You sound small with comments like these. You're better than that.
    I live in a vile, predatory country.  I live in a substandard democracy.  So the least he can do is thank us for the freedoms he enjoys. Then I'll go back to lying in my vile culture. 
    Come on man. I agree, you're better than this.
    I can't believe none of you who keep doing this have managed to drop it yet. It's been going on for days, and it's just so dumb.
    PAGE 85!!!!
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
This discussion has been closed.