OMG, it’s not like third party candidates don’t run in local, state and federal elections, they do all the time. And they lose. Big, bad, evil corrupt two party system keeping em down. Elections have consequences and sure, you’re free to vote for whoever you’d like but Nader gave us Bush and stein and butt hurt Bernie bros manipulated by Putin on the ritz gave us Team Trump Treason. Some are okay with it.
You can dislike the two party system all you like but you won’t force a change by voting independent/third party; the system is too resilient for that. It will take a much more dramatic change to make that happen.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,759
Naive is too kind a word to describe someone who would vote third party when Trump is on the ballot.
I had no problem voting for Stein in 2016. Hillary was a shoe in for the electoral college votes in California and although I obviously thought she was better than Trump, I didn't like either. I was very fortunate to be able to vote 3rd party with a clear conscience.
I wish enough others had done the same so as to start a trend toward the acceptance of third (or more) parties. Why are we so locked into a two party system,? Why are we so afraid of change? Even if this is seen as "dreaming", when did people stop having dreams for a better world? Do we really want to keep going down the same road that we know damn well is leading us further and further into a place that is bad for us (not to mention, bad for the planet)? Do we really want to be cattle moseying along in a stupor headed for our own self-imposed slaughter? Not me.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Naive is too kind a word to describe someone who would vote third party when Trump is on the ballot.
I had no problem voting for Stein in 2016. Hillary was a shoe in for the electoral college votes in California and although I obviously thought she was better than Trump, I didn't like either. I was very fortunate to be able to vote 3rd party with a clear conscience.
I wish enough others had done the same so as to start a trend toward the acceptance of third (or more) parties. Why are we so locked into a two party system,? Why are we so afraid of change? Even if this is seen as "dreaming", when did people stop having dreams for a better world? Do we really want to keep going down the same road that we know damn well is leading us further and further into a place that is bad for us (not to mention, bad for the planet)? Do we really want to be cattle moseying along in a stupor headed for our own self-imposed slaughter? Not me.
Well there's the real irony right? You could vote Stein knowing it didn't matter. Ergo you could have stayed home too.
The question is, what would you have done if you lived in Pennsylvania?
Naive is too kind a word to describe someone who would vote third party when Trump is on the ballot.
I had no problem voting for Stein in 2016. Hillary was a shoe in for the electoral college votes in California and although I obviously thought she was better than Trump, I didn't like either. I was very fortunate to be able to vote 3rd party with a clear conscience.
I wish enough others had done the same so as to start a trend toward the acceptance of third (or more) parties. Why are we so locked into a two party system,? Why are we so afraid of change? Even if this is seen as "dreaming", when did people stop having dreams for a better world? Do we really want to keep going down the same road that we know damn well is leading us further and further into a place that is bad for us (not to mention, bad for the planet)? Do we really want to be cattle moseying along in a stupor headed for our own self-imposed slaughter? Not me.
Who says people are arguing against change? I would say people are more arguing against ineffective measures that make a worse outcome more likely.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
This is what happens with a 2 party crooked system...
This is a terrible story, but kind of a non sequitur. How would a third party either lower the price if insulin or generally remove the influence of money in politics?
Because there is actually a Democrat or 2/3 that I won’t vote for I’m:
1) Horseshoed...what a stupid label but I’m not surprised people around here like to pretend they hate labels and then that’s all they fucking do. 2) I do not understand the election system 3) naive - no wait that is too kind... what word would you use then tough guy? Say it and don’t be a pansy.
How about this, nominate an electable democrat. I’ll be voting in the dem primary...hoping for a candidate to come out that I can vote for. I can probably vote for 90% of them. But if they want to take the party to the crazy left I can’t vote it. And I won’t. And I can’t nor will I vote for trump.
The crazy left?
Like providing education, healthcare and not putting kids in cages?
You have a strange definition of crazy....
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This is what happens with a 2 party crooked system...
This is a terrible story, but kind of a non sequitur. How would a third party either lower the price if insulin or generally remove the influence of money in politics?
I think Canada benefits greatly by having 3 or more parties, even though federally we only elect either liberals or conservative, and the other parties like the NDP and Green can at least raise concern that the other 2 parties might not because it's in their mutual interest not to. Because of your corrupt system of Democrats and Republicans who are so paid off by the pharmaceutical industry and insurance industry I doubt Americans will ever enjoy the comfort, knowledge and peace of mind knowing if you fall on hard times, low income or even homeless that I have in knowing that I can get medical attention, no questions asked, no money exchanging hands...and most importantly, my DR. chooses what test to run and no one can deny me those test, he consults with me, and me only.
And for the most, your Democratic party would align closer to our conservative party in many ways...Our conservative parties when they get to power they at least let us keep our health care, sometimes they even improve it...both parties do. The father of our health system is Tommy Douglas, the grandfather of Keifer Sutherland...he was not a liberal or conservative...he was the former premier of Saskatchewan, federally he was the leader of the NDP a 3rd party. You see, sometimes good ideas come from having a 3rd ...
You, I think are a product of today's generation ... Part of the reason I respect the older generation is their patience. This generation has no patience...they are too used to everything now. No one is saying electing a 3rd party in Congress in 2020 will change things today...you hope they can eventually gain traction to at least affect change eventually, maybe not in your life but eventually.
In Canada, we have 1 Green Party member in the HoC and PEI is on the verge of electing a green party government, Ontario just elected their 1st Green Party MPP.
The Green Party has been around a while...but they are gaining traction.
Positive change is always worth the wait...
Personally, if I lived in a swing state I'd vote 3rd party...
Three parties can be corrupt as two. Liberal parties can be as corrupt as conservative. Socialist and communist governments are certainly as corrupt as any capitalistic one, historically. The common denominator is people. The solution, as an easy and material start, is McCain-Feingold. I don't see how the number of parties is relevant at all.
HE'S USING SWEDENS COLORS FOR HIS CAMPAIGNS VISUAL IDENTITY - HE'S A WINNER PEOPLE.
Lol, congrats.
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Naive is too kind a word to describe someone who would vote third party when Trump is on the ballot.
I had no problem voting for Stein in 2016. Hillary was a shoe in for the electoral college votes in California and although I obviously thought she was better than Trump, I didn't like either. I was very fortunate to be able to vote 3rd party with a clear conscience.
I wish enough others had done the same so as to start a trend toward the acceptance of third (or more) parties. Why are we so locked into a two party system,? Why are we so afraid of change? Even if this is seen as "dreaming", when did people stop having dreams for a better world? Do we really want to keep going down the same road that we know damn well is leading us further and further into a place that is bad for us (not to mention, bad for the planet)? Do we really want to be cattle moseying along in a stupor headed for our own self-imposed slaughter? Not me.
Well there's the real irony right? You could vote Stein knowing it didn't matter. Ergo you could have stayed home too.
The question is, what would you have done if you lived in Pennsylvania?
There were several other issues on the ballot beside voting for the president!
In PA I would have (gulp) voted for Hillary, of course.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,759
Naive is too kind a word to describe someone who would vote third party when Trump is on the ballot.
I had no problem voting for Stein in 2016. Hillary was a shoe in for the electoral college votes in California and although I obviously thought she was better than Trump, I didn't like either. I was very fortunate to be able to vote 3rd party with a clear conscience.
I wish enough others had done the same so as to start a trend toward the acceptance of third (or more) parties. Why are we so locked into a two party system,? Why are we so afraid of change? Even if this is seen as "dreaming", when did people stop having dreams for a better world? Do we really want to keep going down the same road that we know damn well is leading us further and further into a place that is bad for us (not to mention, bad for the planet)? Do we really want to be cattle moseying along in a stupor headed for our own self-imposed slaughter? Not me.
Who says people are arguing against change? I would say people are more arguing against ineffective measures that make a worse outcome more likely.
No one. But it is strongly inferred by those who oppose change implying that third parties don't exist or implying there is something wrong with voting third party.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Because there is actually a Democrat or 2/3 that I won’t vote for I’m:
1) Horseshoed...what a stupid label but I’m not surprised people around here like to pretend they hate labels and then that’s all they fucking do. 2) I do not understand the election system 3) naive - no wait that is too kind... what word would you use then tough guy? Say it and don’t be a pansy.
How about this, nominate an electable democrat. I’ll be voting in the dem primary...hoping for a candidate to come out that I can vote for. I can probably vote for 90% of them. But if they want to take the party to the crazy left I can’t vote it. And I won’t. And I can’t nor will I vote for trump.
If you think Trump is just a misguided unprofessional ass, then I can back this philosophy. But if you think a) that he is doing all of this for himself and his ego and b) his re-election potentially increases the likelihood of US authoritarianism, then I don’t get it. I’m not a huge Bernie guy, either, but I do believe he cares about the country and it’s people (I really believe Trump doesn’t). I believe 100% this is about Trump’s ego and at least 50% fascism is on the table. If you don’t than, OK. I do and can’t imagine any opponent that would push me to vote 3rd this time. And I have voted 3rd (for Governor; not Prez).
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Three parties can be corrupt as two. Liberal parties can be as corrupt as conservative. Socialist and communist governments are certainly as corrupt as any capitalistic one, historically. The common denominator is people. The solution, as an easy and material start, is McCain-Feingold. I don't see how the number of parties is relevant at all.
Also, what generation am I product of?
The want it now generation. You have no use for 3rd parties because they can not enact change in the now. I am saying that it may take generations for a 3rd to begin to make a difference, but they will never make a difference with your attitude because to you it's a wasted vote. Ask the folks on Victoria Island if they wasted their vote on the Green Party, or Guelph, On Green Party, most of where I live is represented by a 3rd party...we survive just fine, and truthfully our democracy is far better than yours ever will be...
Three parties can be corrupt as two. Liberal parties can be as corrupt as conservative. Socialist and communist governments are certainly as corrupt as any capitalistic one, historically. The common denominator is people. The solution, as an easy and material start, is McCain-Feingold. I don't see how the number of parties is relevant at all.
Also, what generation am I product of?
The want it now generation. You have no use for 3rd parties because they can not enact change in the now. I am saying that it may take generations for a 3rd to begin to make a difference, but they will never make a difference with your attitude because to you it's a wasted vote. Ask the folks on Victoria Island if they wasted their vote on the Green Party, or Guelph, On Green Party, most of where I live is represented by a 3rd party...we survive just fine, and truthfully our democracy is far better than yours ever will be...
It's a waste because of the construction of our amendments. You must not understand the amendments and our history. That's not an insult, I'm sure you know more about the US than I do about Canada. What you think is impatience is actually a deep understanding of our system and history. I actually have a bachelor's in history, focused on the Age of Jackson. That period is instructive in understanding how multiple viable candidates play out in our system. That's why I said earlier that the viable solution is the removal of the electoral college, through the amendment process. Third parties have collapsed or merged back into an existing party, creating factions within the party, multiple times in our history.
Three parties can be corrupt as two. Liberal parties can be as corrupt as conservative. Socialist and communist governments are certainly as corrupt as any capitalistic one, historically. The common denominator is people. The solution, as an easy and material start, is McCain-Feingold. I don't see how the number of parties is relevant at all.
Also, what generation am I product of?
The want it now generation. You have no use for 3rd parties because they can not enact change in the now. I am saying that it may take generations for a 3rd to begin to make a difference, but they will never make a difference with your attitude because to you it's a wasted vote. Ask the folks on Victoria Island if they wasted their vote on the Green Party, or Guelph, On Green Party, most of where I live is represented by a 3rd party...we survive just fine, and truthfully our democracy is far better than yours ever will be...
Absolutely our range of parties is valuable and valued, but it’s a very different system in the US so a direct comparison can’t be made.
Also, it’s Vancouver Island
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Three parties can be corrupt as two. Liberal parties can be as corrupt as conservative. Socialist and communist governments are certainly as corrupt as any capitalistic one, historically. The common denominator is people. The solution, as an easy and material start, is McCain-Feingold. I don't see how the number of parties is relevant at all.
Also, what generation am I product of?
The want it now generation. You have no use for 3rd parties because they can not enact change in the now. I am saying that it may take generations for a 3rd to begin to make a difference, but they will never make a difference with your attitude because to you it's a wasted vote. Ask the folks on Victoria Island if they wasted their vote on the Green Party, or Guelph, On Green Party, most of where I live is represented by a 3rd party...we survive just fine, and truthfully our democracy is far better than yours ever will be...
Absolutely our range of parties is valuable and valued, but it’s a very different system in the US so a direct comparison can’t be made.
Also, it’s Vancouver Island
Sorry about calling Vancouver Island, Victoria Island...I know better.
I think eventually the US has to adapt or fall behind. I am under no illusion, 3rd parties have played a major role in our single-payer health care...which we should all be thankful.
Give Peas A Chance…
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,759
Three parties can be corrupt as two. Liberal parties can be as corrupt as conservative. Socialist and communist governments are certainly as corrupt as any capitalistic one, historically. The common denominator is people. The solution, as an easy and material start, is McCain-Feingold. I don't see how the number of parties is relevant at all.
Also, what generation am I product of?
mrussel1 , all power is prone to corruption, yes. My point about third party is that I believe it should be a viable option and that when people who vote third party are ostracized and criticized, that kind of thinking might actually be counterproductive. And here's why I say that:
In the US, we are at a place in time where the extreme right is having its day in the sun. At this point, a movement toward moderation would be a step in the right direction. But it's important to understand that you need a strong progressive left to help balance the equation. To flat out dismiss radical left thinking might not be in a moderates best interest. I
For example, in his book Confessions of an Eco-Warrior, Dave Foreman talks about how monkeywrenching is useful to the environmental movement:
"Monkeywrenching can also be seen as a sophisticated political tactic that dramatizes ecological issues and places them before the public when they otherwise would be ignored in the media... and broadens the spectrum of environmental activism so that lobbying y mainstream groups is not considered "extremest". " (page 144)
Before dismissing the idea of voting outside the confines of the limited two-party system, perhaps consider that those who work outside the parameters and think outside the box may actually be useful to your moderate viewpoint.
I would say the same for those who show concern or even disdain for "outrage culture". Yes, some of that is over the top. But it can also serve create a greater balance.
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Naive is too kind a word to describe someone who would vote third party when Trump is on the ballot.
I had no problem voting for Stein in 2016. Hillary was a shoe in for the electoral college votes in California and although I obviously thought she was better than Trump, I didn't like either. I was very fortunate to be able to vote 3rd party with a clear conscience.
I wish enough others had done the same so as to start a trend toward the acceptance of third (or more) parties. Why are we so locked into a two party system,? Why are we so afraid of change? Even if this is seen as "dreaming", when did people stop having dreams for a better world? Do we really want to keep going down the same road that we know damn well is leading us further and further into a place that is bad for us (not to mention, bad for the planet)? Do we really want to be cattle moseying along in a stupor headed for our own self-imposed slaughter? Not me.
Well there's the real irony right? You could vote Stein knowing it didn't matter. Ergo you could have stayed home too.
The question is, what would you have done if you lived in Pennsylvania?
Voted for whatever candidate he felt best lined up with his political beliefs and values?
Naive is too kind a word to describe someone who would vote third party when Trump is on the ballot.
I had no problem voting for Stein in 2016. Hillary was a shoe in for the electoral college votes in California and although I obviously thought she was better than Trump, I didn't like either. I was very fortunate to be able to vote 3rd party with a clear conscience.
I wish enough others had done the same so as to start a trend toward the acceptance of third (or more) parties. Why are we so locked into a two party system,? Why are we so afraid of change? Even if this is seen as "dreaming", when did people stop having dreams for a better world? Do we really want to keep going down the same road that we know damn well is leading us further and further into a place that is bad for us (not to mention, bad for the planet)? Do we really want to be cattle moseying along in a stupor headed for our own self-imposed slaughter? Not me.
Well there's the real irony right? You could vote Stein knowing it didn't matter. Ergo you could have stayed home too.
The question is, what would you have done if you lived in Pennsylvania?
Voted for whatever candidate he felt best lined up with his political beliefs and values?
So Hillary, as he stated. Because he clearly understood the ramifications and political reality of our system.
Naive is too kind a word to describe someone who would vote third party when Trump is on the ballot.
I had no problem voting for Stein in 2016. Hillary was a shoe in for the electoral college votes in California and although I obviously thought she was better than Trump, I didn't like either. I was very fortunate to be able to vote 3rd party with a clear conscience.
I wish enough others had done the same so as to start a trend toward the acceptance of third (or more) parties. Why are we so locked into a two party system,? Why are we so afraid of change? Even if this is seen as "dreaming", when did people stop having dreams for a better world? Do we really want to keep going down the same road that we know damn well is leading us further and further into a place that is bad for us (not to mention, bad for the planet)? Do we really want to be cattle moseying along in a stupor headed for our own self-imposed slaughter? Not me.
Well there's the real irony right? You could vote Stein knowing it didn't matter. Ergo you could have stayed home too.
The question is, what would you have done if you lived in Pennsylvania?
Voted for whatever candidate he felt best lined up with his political beliefs and values?
So Hillary, as he stated. Because he clearly understood the ramifications and political reality of our system.
Have no problem with that, at all, whichis my point... just like i would have no problem if he voted Stein, Gary, Trump, or Mickey Mouse. I might disagree with someones choice, but don't have a problem with it, it's their vote
The doomsday "you must vote Democrat, or die" routine is silly and shortsighted to me, that's all.
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https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/01/641615877/insulins-high-cost-leads-to-lethal-rationing?fbclid=IwAR3ZpLCL0ALTOxv3s2L2XuM2rpwbjEwBsoY-gNJCERGppYZ5ILuoRgRujpI
This is what happens with a 2 party crooked system...
The question is, what would you have done if you lived in Pennsylvania?
Who says people are arguing against change? I would say people are more arguing against ineffective measures that make a worse outcome more likely.
The crazy left?
Like providing education, healthcare and not putting kids in cages?
You have a strange definition of crazy....
And for the most, your Democratic party would align closer to our conservative party in many ways...Our conservative parties when they get to power they at least let us keep our health care, sometimes they even improve it...both parties do. The father of our health system is Tommy Douglas, the grandfather of Keifer Sutherland...he was not a liberal or conservative...he was the former premier of Saskatchewan, federally he was the leader of the NDP a 3rd party. You see, sometimes good ideas come from having a 3rd ...
You, I think are a product of today's generation ... Part of the reason I respect the older generation is their patience. This generation has no patience...they are too used to everything now. No one is saying electing a 3rd party in Congress in 2020 will change things today...you hope they can eventually gain traction to at least affect change eventually, maybe not in your life but eventually.
In Canada, we have 1 Green Party member in the HoC and PEI is on the verge of electing a green party government, Ontario just elected their 1st Green Party MPP.
The Green Party has been around a while...but they are gaining traction.
Positive change is always worth the wait...
Personally, if I lived in a swing state I'd vote 3rd party...
Also, what generation am I product of?
HE'S USING SWEDENS COLORS FOR HIS CAMPAIGNS VISUAL IDENTITY - HE'S A WINNER PEOPLE.
Detroit 2000, Detroit 2003 1-2, Grand Rapids VFC 2004, Philly 2005, Grand Rapids 2006, Detroit 2006, Cleveland 2006, Lollapalooza 2007, Detroit Eddie Solo 2011, Detroit 2014, Chicago 2016 1-2, Chicago 2018 1-2, Ohana Encore 2021 1-2, Chicago Eddie/Earthlings 2022 1-2, Nashville 2022, St. Louis 2022
WHERE IS EDDIE VEDDER?!?!
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
Detroit 2000, Detroit 2003 1-2, Grand Rapids VFC 2004, Philly 2005, Grand Rapids 2006, Detroit 2006, Cleveland 2006, Lollapalooza 2007, Detroit Eddie Solo 2011, Detroit 2014, Chicago 2016 1-2, Chicago 2018 1-2, Ohana Encore 2021 1-2, Chicago Eddie/Earthlings 2022 1-2, Nashville 2022, St. Louis 2022
Also, it’s Vancouver Island
I think eventually the US has to adapt or fall behind. I am under no illusion, 3rd parties have played a major role in our single-payer health care...which we should all be thankful.
The doomsday "you must vote Democrat, or die" routine is silly and shortsighted to me, that's all.