The Democratic Candidates

Spiritual_Chaos

mrussel1 said:

So are you arguing that the Swedish rate of 24 year olds that have attended college isn't half of what the 2016 US rate is?  Split that hair all you want, but according to the report, the number of Swedes that do or have attended college substantially trails the US.  And with that number being so low, the taxes are inherently regressive. 
Last, what would happen if Sweden had a 70% college attendance rate?  Would your deficit balloon?  Would they kill the program?  I guess I could draw the conclusion that maybe Swedish lawmakers don't want a high attendance rate because it would make the program untenable.  Man, your society is really unequal.  It's quite sad.  

You can see from my post above what I'm arguing about. 

Lets take this one step at a time:


So, this proves one of two things:

1. You have a hard time understanding text (could be, with you claiming ignorance on my use use of "paywalling")

or

2. You are arguing in bad faith and skewing data in your favor. Which is just shitty on the level of your dear president.

What is it? 

mrussel1

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

So are you arguing that the Swedish rate of 24 year olds that have attended college isn't half of what the 2016 US rate is?  Split that hair all you want, but according to the report, the number of Swedes that do or have attended college substantially trails the US.  And with that number being so low, the taxes are inherently regressive. 
Last, what would happen if Sweden had a 70% college attendance rate?  Would your deficit balloon?  Would they kill the program?  I guess I could draw the conclusion that maybe Swedish lawmakers don't want a high attendance rate because it would make the program untenable.  Man, your society is really unequal.  It's quite sad.  

You can see from my post above what I'm arguing about. 

Lets take this one step at a time:

So, this proves one of two things:

1. You have a hard time understanding text (could be, with you claiming ignorance on my use use of "paywalling")

or

2. You are arguing in bad faith and skewing data in your favor. Which is just shitty on the level of your dear president.

What is it? 

Your arguments are meaningless to the broader argument.  Are you going to ask me if I still beat my wife next?  The fact remains that your Swedish utopia lags far behind the US in realized educational opportunities, and that because all citizens have to pay for these elite to attend college, your system is actually regressive in nature, not progressive.  My advice is you look inward to help your society and worry less about mine in the future.  

Spiritual_Chaos

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

So are you arguing that the Swedish rate of 24 year olds that have attended college isn't half of what the 2016 US rate is?  Split that hair all you want, but according to the report, the number of Swedes that do or have attended college substantially trails the US.  And with that number being so low, the taxes are inherently regressive. 
Last, what would happen if Sweden had a 70% college attendance rate?  Would your deficit balloon?  Would they kill the program?  I guess I could draw the conclusion that maybe Swedish lawmakers don't want a high attendance rate because it would make the program untenable.  Man, your society is really unequal.  It's quite sad.  

You can see from my post above what I'm arguing about. 

Lets take this one step at a time:

So, this proves one of two things:

1. You have a hard time understanding text (could be, with you claiming ignorance on my use use of "paywalling")

or

2. You are arguing in bad faith and skewing data in your favor. Which is just shitty on the level of your dear president.

What is it? 

Your arguments are meaningless to the broader argument.  Are you going to ask me if I still beat my wife next?  The fact remains that your Swedish utopia lags far behind the US in realized educational opportunities, and that because all citizens have to pay for these elite to attend college, your system is actually regressive in nature, not progressive.  My advice is you look inward to help your society and worry less about mine in the future.  

Hard to even have an argumentation when you skew and fake the data you provide, to try to make or strengthen your point. Isn't that surprisingly Trump:ian?


So no, it is not meaningless. It is important, how else are you suppose to be able to carry on a conversation? When you use such tactics?

It's as I said -- arguing in bad faith. 

So what is correct?

1. You have a hard time understanding text (could be, with you claiming ignorance on my use use of "paywalling")

or

2. You are arguing in bad faith and skewing data in your favor. Which is just shitty on the level of your dear president.

What is it? 

mrussel1

Can you repeat the question?  I don't think I read it.  
FYI, Sweden sucks.  You must be one of the elites that is trying to defend and preserve your broken, regressive tax system. 

Spiritual_Chaos

mrussel1 said:

Can you repeat the question?  I don't think I read it.  

1. You have a hard time understanding text (could be, with you claiming ignorance on my use use of "paywalling")

or

2. You are arguing in bad faith and skewing data in your favor. Which is just shitty on the level of your dear president.

What is it? 

mrussel1

benjs said:

mcgruff10 said:

Hey we are the sixth most educated country in the world, Sweden didn't even make the top ten list.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/the-10-most-educated-countries-in-the-world.html

Every year, institutions in the United States dominate rankings of the best colleges in the world.

Of the top 10 best universities in the world, eight are located in the U.S. But despite having some of the best educational institutions on earth, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) ranks the U.S. sixth for adult education level.

The OECD defined a country’s adult education level as the percentage of people between the ages of 25 and 64 who have completed some kind of tertiary education in the form of a two-year degree, four-year degree or vocational program.

Here are the 10 most educated countries:

6. United States

45.67 percent

1. Canada

56.27 percent

You go Canada!

I know this might be tangential to the debate at hand, but I don’t love the “most educated” as being a solid benchmark defining the skills of a nation. I went to university and studied structural engineering (steel/concrete-framed structures, bridge design, masonry, etc.). I did it because I hoped it would provide a rigour in learning and thinking logically, but I found my work ethic only really developed when I found something that interested me, dug my teeth in, and learned obsessively (i.e. at least five years after graduating). I also feel my desire to have logical rigour only developed when I had the accountability put on me that lacking it would cost others - those on my team. 

Hard skills I use from my education: torrenting learning materials, statistics (a high school course from prior to university)
Soft skills I use from my education: the concept of a minimally viable product - doing the least necessary to get the desired output
Skills developed since education: SQL programming, C/SIDE, sales system design, basic neural networks and machine learning fundamentals, business architecture, leadership frameworks and mentalities - any other thing I want to learn, because it’s all out there and accessible. 

Look at the hiring patterns of companies like Google. More and more, the value is put on the people with what I’ve seen described as ‘grit’ - the tenacity to persevere through failures; the people who chase that high of accomplishment regardless of their IQ or prior education through their own resourcefulness. Of course, in a metric-obsessed world, these intangibles are inconvenient when we mostly try to grow our populations through dangled carrots of high success rates, but I think it’s time to think differently about what really matters.

I generally agree with you here.  Certainly there are some skills that are specific to a role that must be learned in order to be successful.  Even in business, you can't be a good CFO unless you have CPA level skills.  But I completely agree that evidence of working through difficulties and completing something optional in life (college) is really important.  When I hire people today, I'm generally open to the degree someone has.  Finishing school is a strong statement of success.  If they have an English degree, then I think about how strong and influential their writing skills may be.  If they have a math or engineering degree, then I'm thinking about a business analyst or (to your skill set) a SQL analyst which is a great resource.  Someone who is with a company for a fair to long period of time is a real positive, particularly if they were promoted or grew their role.  
Regarding the 'most educated', I agree that it's generally not important.  I'm just having fun with our Swedish friend here.  

mrussel1

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Can you repeat the question?  I don't think I read it.  

1. You have a hard time understanding text (could be, with you claiming ignorance on my use use of "paywalling")

or

2. You are arguing in bad faith and skewing data in your favor. Which is just shitty on the level of your dear president.

What is it? 

/shush please.  Your bold typing is giving me a headache.  Please do some work on improving your homeland.  The rest of us are busy with ours. 

dignin

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mrussel1 said:

Also,  a paywall in the states is when you have to pay to access content in a website.  I don't understand how you are using it. 

You don't? It's pretty obvious, right? As a metaphor? He is talking about how the cost of post-secondary tuition in the USA is restrictive for lower income people, so the rich get far better educations while the poor don't get much or any, simply because of the burden of tuition fees at the beter universities. That makes it so the entire post-secondary systems leads to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Most people support an education system that ideally has equality when it comes to access, or at least doesn't make it impossible for lower income kids to access the high quality education that rich kids can (especially with the whole scamming rich kids into schools thing that the US has going on). The USA has the opposite of that. It has a tiered system that permits the rich to buy the best educations, leaving the poor to slog through community college systems. It confuses me that there are any Americans who are okay with the way things are now, along with healthcare.

First, I have no idea how you got that from his statement about a paywall.  He's never written anything to that depth here before.  Also, I think your statement on the tiered education system is completely overstated.  Every university has programs that target low income households to give them a chance to go to school very inexpensively.  This is probably the fourth reason why core tuition has gone up, according to some research; the number of students who receive free tuition naturally increases the cost for those that do not.   Second, we have excellent state universities in this country with relatively reasonable rates of tuition, should your family make more money than what is necessary to qualify for assistance.  If you choose to attend one of the 'first tier' universities that are typically private (Ivy league for example has only one state school I believe), that's on you.  Your point is accurate on the comparison to healthcare, but perhaps not the reason you state.  Medical in this country is just about free for those at or around the poverty line, with Medicaid and SCHIP.  It's those that make too much to qualify but not enough to handle the burdent(lower middle to middle class) that see the greatest % of their income dedicated to healthcare.  The same can be said for post secondary educations.  However in this country, no employer gives a shit where you did your first two years.  It's only where your degree is from that can make a difference.  So doing two years of Juco and then 2 years in a state university (particularly if you are fortunate like me to have UVA and W&M as state schools, or just about any in California) makes a very reasonable expense.   But you have to finish.  The vast majority of people who have defaulted student loan debt did not finish school.  

So, how is this an argument against having it be tuition free? Sounds like a lot of words to say "tuition free is more fair"

Why is it more fair for everyone to pay for a social benefit that not everyone takes AND means that individual will make more money in the future.  It's the opposite of progressive economics.  If going to college means you make more money in teh future (it generally does) then there is no reason for the government (read: the people) to pay for that.  Healthcare is different because there is a human right element.  None such exists for college.  

Because it is in the country's best interest to keep its population educated and educated for the jobs the country needs to fill.

It is also about being as fair as possible, wherever you come from or who your family us - your wallet should not determine your chances to education. Like PJ_Sould explained. It is vile to paywall education. I would say that is a better and more noble way to look at it than "fuck em, let the rich buy themselves into the best schools".

Using economic means in society to strengthen equality and making life more fair its citizens should be something to strive for, not run away from. 

I also think that is fare that a woman has the right by law to stay home from work after giving birth. No humans right aspect in that I guess either. So I understand why the US would think that "Let the rich be able to stay home, and let the poor get back to work before they even healed up". 

Different ways to look at society, and the value of a citizen. I would like to add, your view expressed above is depressing.


Sweden: "The peoples Home" -- Sometimes referred to as "the Swedish Middle Way", folkhemmet was viewed as midway between capitalism and socialism. The base of the folkhem vision is that the entire society ought to be like a small family, where everybody contributes, but also where everybody looks after one another. The Swedish Social Democrats' successes in the postwar period is often explained by the fact that the party managed to motivate major social reforms with the idea of the folkhem and the national family's joint endeavor.

The US: B-b-but why should I have to help out?

Well this is interesting isn't it?  The US has a higher percentage of college graduation than Sweden.  US is number 2 in the world and Sweden isn't even in the top 10.  In fact, for 2016 70% of all US high school graduates attended college the following fall. Sweden, from what I could gather online, is about 43%.  Why then, if Sweden cares more about its people than the US, does the Swedish attendance and graduation rate lag so far behind the US?  So now in Sweden you have 100% of adults paying taxes to send 43% to college.  Talk about a regressive tax, sheesh.  

You must by lying, Sweden beats the United States in everything.  

Oh and more shocking information, 70% of Stockholm residents under 24 HAVE attended university.  Outside the city, it drops to 17%.  Stockholm is one of the most expensive places to live in the world.  So now the rural folk of Sweden are paying to send the rich city folk to school.  Is that fair?  Doesn't seem to be.  

That definitely does not seem fair to me.  If college is free there then why don't the rural folk go?  

My guess?  Inequality in the level of education Stockholm vs the rest of the country?  Seems sad.  I wish there was a Swedish band that was popular enough to have a website where I could float some observations and suggestions.

https://abbasite.com/articles/the-one-and-only-abba-official-fanclub/

mrussel1

dignin said:

https://abbasite.com/articles/the-one-and-only-abba-official-fanclub/

Excellent.  I have a bunch of criticisms for them.  

Meltdown99

...

mickeyrat

lets clear something up for our esl students....

paywall noun
pay·​wall | \ ˈpā-ˌwȯl
\
Definition of paywall

: a system that prevents Internet users from accessing certain Web content without a paid subscription
Examples of paywall in a Sentence

Recent Examples on the Web
That’s, a lot of people who come on this show talk about their paywall or subscription strategy. — Eric Johnson, Recode, "It may be ‘data journalism,’ but Julia Angwin’s new site the Markup is nothing like FiveThirtyEight," 27 Sep. 2018 So science, overall, is becoming more open and accessible, despite journals’ continued reliance on paywalls. — Brian Resnick, Vox, "Europe has a plan to force academic publishers to make research free to read," 24 Sep. 2018

These example sentences are selected automatically from various online news sources to reflect current usage of the word 'paywall.' Views expressed in the examples do not represent the opinion of Merriam-Webster or its editors. Send us feedback.
See More
First Known Use of paywall

2004, in the meaning defined above
History and Etymology for paywall

pay entry 1 + firewall

Spiritual_Chaos

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Can you repeat the question?  I don't think I read it.  

1. You have a hard time understanding text (could be, with you claiming ignorance on my use use of "paywalling")

or

2. You are arguing in bad faith and skewing data in your favor. Which is just shitty on the level of your dear president.

What is it? 

/shush please.  Your bold typing is giving me a headache.  Please do some work on improving your homeland.  The rest of us are busy with ours. 

Why are you unable to answer? It's a simple question, based on you skewing facts to support your arguments. 

I'm not the one arguing in bad faith - you are. And you seem to have a problem coming clean about this shitty tactic of yours? Going off on sarcastic remarks instead.

Another very Trump:ian trait.  Could it be, like they say on the cable news shows - he isn't the problem in the US, he is merely a symptom?

mrussel1

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Can you repeat the question?  I don't think I read it.  

1. You have a hard time understanding text (could be, with you claiming ignorance on my use use of "paywalling")

or

2. You are arguing in bad faith and skewing data in your favor. Which is just shitty on the level of your dear president.

What is it? 

/shush please.  Your bold typing is giving me a headache.  Please do some work on improving your homeland.  The rest of us are busy with ours. 

Why are you unable to answer? It's a simple question, based on you skewing facts to support your arguments. 

I'm not the one arguing in bad faith - you are. And you seem to have a problem coming clean about this shitty tactic of yours? Going off on sarcastic remarks instead.

Another very Trump:ian trait.  Could it be, like they say on the cable news shows - he isn't the problem in the US, he is merely a symptom?

If that's all you have to hang your hat on with the discussion, I think you know what that means.  

mrussel1

mickeyrat said:

lets clear something up for our esl students....

paywall noun
pay·​wall | \ ˈpā-ˌwȯl
\
Definition of paywall

: a system that prevents Internet users from accessing certain Web content without a paid subscription
Examples of paywall in a Sentence

Recent Examples on the Web
That’s, a lot of people who come on this show talk about their paywall or subscription strategy. — Eric Johnson, Recode, "It may be ‘data journalism,’ but Julia Angwin’s new site the Markup is nothing like FiveThirtyEight," 27 Sep. 2018 So science, overall, is becoming more open and accessible, despite journals’ continued reliance on paywalls. — Brian Resnick, Vox, "Europe has a plan to force academic publishers to make research free to read," 24 Sep. 2018

These example sentences are selected automatically from various online news sources to reflect current usage of the word 'paywall.' Views expressed in the examples do not represent the opinion of Merriam-Webster or its editors. Send us feedback.
See More
First Known Use of paywall

2004, in the meaning defined above
History and Etymology for paywall

pay entry 1 + firewall

Would someone that has ESL know what ESL means?

mickeyrat

mrussel1 said:

mickeyrat said:

lets clear something up for our esl students....

paywall noun
pay·​wall | \ ˈpā-ˌwȯl
\
Definition of paywall

: a system that prevents Internet users from accessing certain Web content without a paid subscription
Examples of paywall in a Sentence

Recent Examples on the Web
That’s, a lot of people who come on this show talk about their paywall or subscription strategy. — Eric Johnson, Recode, "It may be ‘data journalism,’ but Julia Angwin’s new site the Markup is nothing like FiveThirtyEight," 27 Sep. 2018 So science, overall, is becoming more open and accessible, despite journals’ continued reliance on paywalls. — Brian Resnick, Vox, "Europe has a plan to force academic publishers to make research free to read," 24 Sep. 2018

These example sentences are selected automatically from various online news sources to reflect current usage of the word 'paywall.' Views expressed in the examples do not represent the opinion of Merriam-Webster or its editors. Send us feedback.
See More
First Known Use of paywall

2004, in the meaning defined above
History and Etymology for paywall

pay entry 1 + firewall

Would someone that has ESL know what ESL means?

Can provide a dictionary definition for that too if needed.....

brianlux

Spiritual_Chaos said:

"... and the top ones are all socialist friendly places" 

"The right have a hard time understanding the concept that we don't want 'long-lines-for-bread'-socialism -- We want 'you don't have to win the lotto to afford brain surgery'-socialism"

"Happiness isn't only about what you have - but also what you don't have to worry about"

"All the top countries on the list are ones with some form of universal healthcare, all have free or almost free higher education, all have strong unions, pensions and social safety nets. Turns out freedom from, ending up in a tent below the overpass is a really great freedom"

"Conservatives like to push the canard that unfettered capitalism makes you more free, but actually it's the right kind of socialism model that make you the freest"




"In the US the maternal death rate is almost seven (7) times what it is in Finland, isn't that odd? They only pay 60 bucks to have a baby yet they don't die? It's almost as if our system kind of sucks."



*** SANDERS 2020 ****

"What once was need is now uncontrolled desire."  Sister Double Happiness, "Dark Heart"

"What we want and what we need/ have been confused, been confused."  R.E.M.  "Finest Work Song"

Ledbetterman10

What the fuck is going on in this thread? What is the significance of Sweden?

PJ_Soul

Meltdown99 said:

The High Price of a Free College Education in Sweden

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the-high-price-of-a-free-college-education-in-sweden/276428/

This is interesting.  There is no such thing as FREE from the government unless you never pay taxes.

I'm pretty sure you know that everyone else knows that it's not literally free.

mrussel1

@brianlux Healthcare is a human right and should be socialized.  College is not the same in my book and I'm not being tongue in cheek when I say that socialized education is a regressive tax.  The lower the participation rate of students, the more regressive it is.  Last, the lottery systems in place to fund colleges by using lottery dollars is the worst of the wealth transfer systems.  It's taking money from the poor and providing it to the middle and rich, who are far more likely to have post secondary education.  Bill Maher is wrong to extol this point, as is Bernie, IMO.  

PJ_Soul

Ledbetterman10 said:

What the fuck is going on in this thread? What is the significance of Sweden?

Policies and systems being endorsed by some of the Dem candidates can be compared to some of those in Sweden, among other countries, and a Swede member likes to remind us about it. Seems reasonable to me.