Let's also remember that math actually isn't required for many subjects. Someone getting a degree in the arts (excluding economics) will literally never need to be good at math. That is what calculators are for. And likewise for mathematicians. Show me a really great university-level mathematician who is also great at writing composition, and I'll be pleasantly surprised that such an intellectual anomaly has been discovered. It's petty rare in any university setting, and always impressive. Hell, half the good math students at the university I work at barely speak English.
While true, it gives too much credibility to the statement. Unless one feels there was a failing by every teacher, state mandated testing, the actual diploma, college entrance exams, and by the professors, the basis of the statement is flawed. If one passes all the tests and controls leading up to the college graduation, then by definition they were smart enough to go to college.
I actually assumed the "elementary school level" math thing was more hyperbolic. I mean, someone IN university doing the arts and some applied sciences doesn't need to do any math at all in college, but they did need probably a minimum of a passing grade in grade 11 math. They might have forgotten everything they learned immediately, but they did manage it. So they either scraped by that level one way or another, or aren't in university. I personally barely scraped by that level, after being tutored 3 days a week by my math 11 teacher, and even then I suspect he gave me a generous mark or two just to make sure i passed. He did this because he was well aware that I was well suited for university (I had mostly A's otherwise), despite the fact that I sucked at math.
If hyperbole, that just weakens the argument. Im curious then what makes someone too stupid or undeserving of advanced education. If there was a whole army of people graduating without either elementary reading or math skills, well that's an issue. If an exaggeration..
Why would people graduating high school without reading or math skill get into university? They wouldn't. Grades are what dictates if they graduate from high school, and especially if they get into university. I'm not sure what the concern is honestly.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't understand this desire or perspective to not allow or otherwise discourage people from going to college and potentially better their future. The mindset that they dilute the degree of another is exactly the same mindset of those who don't want immigrants because it reduces their future prospects. Plus, being in that class means they were identified as not being prepared for college. It certainly doesn't mean they will graduate.
Indeed. If they can't hack it, they flunk out. It's pretty simple. And the drop out rate after the first and second years in university is actually pretty high. But of course the point of acceptance requirements is ALL about available seats. They allow the people with the best grades in first, which is absolutely the right thing to do. When you see a university with a lower acceptance requirement it's because they couldn't fill all the seats with a higher requirement, not because they just want to open it up to people with poor grades. It's about DEMAND. If you have a university filled with "dumb" people who got in with bad grades, it's because that school is having problems filling seats. Not a good sign obviously. And if the acceptance requirement is way up there and it's hard to get in without great grades, it means the university is in demand by successful students. A good sign that it's a good school.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Would acceptance requirements have to rise significantly? Are they very low in the US now? I've never heard that. I had the impression that admission requirements are pretty reasonable. It's very hard to get accepted to very reputable universities and you pretty much need all As and Bs, a little easier but still hard to get into the mid-range ones, you still need pretty decent grades even for the lower rated universities and colleges, like still in the 70%+ range... and if you can't make that you start with community college and build up better grades that way until you figure out how to meet the admission requirements, which is a solid tactic for self-improvement. And if you can't do that you figure out how to get a decent job without any meaningful post-secondary education.
Well I thought state schools had to admit students that could pay...they don’t get admitted to some colleges and sometime must hit the branch campuses but I thought that’s how it is...but I don’t know for sure. And I bet it differs state to state.
That would be a trick. They don't have an unlimited number of seats, so at some point any school that people want to go to would have to start turning people away. If any student who can pay can get in, it means there are enough spots for all those people... and how could that be a bad thing? But also, it's not every student who can pay. They do still have minimum academic requirements no matter what. It's only the GPA minimum that changes because of demand or lack of it.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Just a question. In Ontario, as I'm sure is happening everywhere, we get quite an influx of foreign students, in which the schools can pretty much charge what the market dictates for tuition and they are exempt from tuition increase caps. Do you think it's possible that schools deny entrance to a local kid in order for the foreign student paying much more?
Would acceptance requirements have to rise significantly? Are they very low in the US now? I've never heard that. I had the impression that admission requirements are pretty reasonable. It's very hard to get accepted to very reputable universities and you pretty much need all As and Bs, a little easier but still hard to get into the mid-range ones, you still need pretty decent grades even for the lower rated universities and colleges, like still in the 70%+ range... and if you can't make that you start with community college and build up better grades that way until you figure out how to meet the admission requirements, which is a solid tactic for self-improvement. And if you can't do that you figure out how to get a decent job without any meaningful post-secondary education.
Well I thought state schools had to admit students that could pay...they don’t get admitted to some colleges and sometime must hit the branch campuses but I thought that’s how it is...but I don’t know for sure. And I bet it differs state to state.
That would be a trick. They don't have an unlimited number of seats, so at some point any school that people want to go to would have to start turning people away. If any student who can pay can get in, it means there are enough spots for all those people... and how could that be a bad thing? But also, it's not every student who can pay. They do still have minimum academic requirements no matter what. It's only the GPA minimum that changes because of demand or lack of it.
Admission criteria
If you have never attended college, you can be admitted to a regional campus if you are an Ohio resident with a degree from a chartered high school or a GED.
Straight from Ohio State's admissions page. They let any high school grad into their branch campuses.
Would acceptance requirements have to rise significantly? Are they very low in the US now? I've never heard that. I had the impression that admission requirements are pretty reasonable. It's very hard to get accepted to very reputable universities and you pretty much need all As and Bs, a little easier but still hard to get into the mid-range ones, you still need pretty decent grades even for the lower rated universities and colleges, like still in the 70%+ range... and if you can't make that you start with community college and build up better grades that way until you figure out how to meet the admission requirements, which is a solid tactic for self-improvement. And if you can't do that you figure out how to get a decent job without any meaningful post-secondary education.
Well I thought state schools had to admit students that could pay...they don’t get admitted to some colleges and sometime must hit the branch campuses but I thought that’s how it is...but I don’t know for sure. And I bet it differs state to state.
That would be a trick. They don't have an unlimited number of seats, so at some point any school that people want to go to would have to start turning people away. If any student who can pay can get in, it means there are enough spots for all those people... and how could that be a bad thing? But also, it's not every student who can pay. They do still have minimum academic requirements no matter what. It's only the GPA minimum that changes because of demand or lack of it.
Admission criteria
If you have never attended college, you can be admitted to a regional campus if you are an Ohio resident with a degree from a chartered high school or a GED.
Straight from Ohio State's admissions page. They let any high school grad into their branch campuses.
"Can be admitted" does not equal will be admitted. They have more info on other areas of their website. They make it clear that they don't admit everyone.
Would acceptance requirements have to rise significantly? Are they very low in the US now? I've never heard that. I had the impression that admission requirements are pretty reasonable. It's very hard to get accepted to very reputable universities and you pretty much need all As and Bs, a little easier but still hard to get into the mid-range ones, you still need pretty decent grades even for the lower rated universities and colleges, like still in the 70%+ range... and if you can't make that you start with community college and build up better grades that way until you figure out how to meet the admission requirements, which is a solid tactic for self-improvement. And if you can't do that you figure out how to get a decent job without any meaningful post-secondary education.
Well I thought state schools had to admit students that could pay...they don’t get admitted to some colleges and sometime must hit the branch campuses but I thought that’s how it is...but I don’t know for sure. And I bet it differs state to state.
That would be a trick. They don't have an unlimited number of seats, so at some point any school that people want to go to would have to start turning people away. If any student who can pay can get in, it means there are enough spots for all those people... and how could that be a bad thing? But also, it's not every student who can pay. They do still have minimum academic requirements no matter what. It's only the GPA minimum that changes because of demand or lack of it.
Admission criteria
If you have never attended college, you can be admitted to a regional campus if you are an Ohio resident with a degree from a chartered high school or a GED.
Straight from Ohio State's admissions page. They let any high school grad into their branch campuses.
"Can be admitted" does not equal will be admitted. They have more info on other areas of their website. They make it clear that they don't admit everyone.
Thats for columbus...the main campus. If you don't get in (about 50%), you go to a regional campus.
"Every year, the main campus in Columbus takes just under half of applicants, prompting thousands of would-be Buckeyes who aren’t accepted to begin their Ohio State careers at one of four regional campuses."
Would acceptance requirements have to rise significantly? Are they very low in the US now? I've never heard that. I had the impression that admission requirements are pretty reasonable. It's very hard to get accepted to very reputable universities and you pretty much need all As and Bs, a little easier but still hard to get into the mid-range ones, you still need pretty decent grades even for the lower rated universities and colleges, like still in the 70%+ range... and if you can't make that you start with community college and build up better grades that way until you figure out how to meet the admission requirements, which is a solid tactic for self-improvement. And if you can't do that you figure out how to get a decent job without any meaningful post-secondary education.
Well I thought state schools had to admit students that could pay...they don’t get admitted to some colleges and sometime must hit the branch campuses but I thought that’s how it is...but I don’t know for sure. And I bet it differs state to state.
That would be a trick. They don't have an unlimited number of seats, so at some point any school that people want to go to would have to start turning people away. If any student who can pay can get in, it means there are enough spots for all those people... and how could that be a bad thing? But also, it's not every student who can pay. They do still have minimum academic requirements no matter what. It's only the GPA minimum that changes because of demand or lack of it.
Admission criteria
If you have never attended college, you can be admitted to a regional campus if you are an Ohio resident with a degree from a chartered high school or a GED.
Straight from Ohio State's admissions page. They let any high school grad into their branch campuses.
The optimal word being "can" (looks like in Ohio the minimum academic requirement for satellite campuses is high school graduation - fair enough). It doesn't mean they will. As I said, they're not admitting anyone with shit grades until all the applicants with great grades are admitted. This is them saying "we may need to fill empty seats". And if there are so many available seats that anyone who graduated high school and who wants to go to college (even if it's only satellite campuses) can go to college, that is awesome! Surprising that they have made so many campuses and seats available I guess, but awesome. I hope they can actually find enough instructors to serve that many students.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Interesting. The open admissions means everyone gets in. However you may be wait listed for some courses if overcrowded. The reality is though that these regional campuses, etc that have open admissions need the $ from the students.
Interesting. The open admissions means everyone gets in. However you may be wait listed for some courses if overcrowded. The reality is though that these regional campuses, etc that have open admissions need the $ from the students.
Well yes. Having a bunch of empty seats is financial ruin for any college. Getting enrollment numbers up is a really high priority - the highest - for administration. That's true for schools in all systems, be they private or public or completely covered by the state.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Interesting. The open admissions means everyone gets in. However you may be wait listed for some courses if overcrowded. The reality is though that these regional campuses, etc that have open admissions need the $ from the students.
Well yes. Having a bunch of empty seats is financial ruin for any college. Getting enrollment numbers up is a really high priority - the highest - for administration. That's true for schools in all systems, be they private or public or completely covered by the state.
And regardless of "can" vs "will", a student still has to complete the coursework at an acceptable level. And schools must monitor their programs to retain accreditation.
Remember that reducing the supply of school seats will only increase the tuition rate. Good for Ohio State for having regional campuses to accept as many students who want to better themselves.
Just a question. In Ontario, as I'm sure is happening everywhere, we get quite an influx of foreign students, in which the schools can pretty much charge what the market dictates for tuition and they are exempt from tuition increase caps. Do you think it's possible that schools deny entrance to a local kid in order for the foreign student paying much more?
Interesting question. Im not sure that plays deeply into their decisions. Having a diverse campus is appealing. Also, foreign students who are able to afford US schools tend to come from affluent backgrounds and have really strong educations. They are smart.
Just a question. In Ontario, as I'm sure is happening everywhere, we get quite an influx of foreign students, in which the schools can pretty much charge what the market dictates for tuition and they are exempt from tuition increase caps. Do you think it's possible that schools deny entrance to a local kid in order for the foreign student paying much more?
Interesting question. Im not sure that plays deeply into their decisions. Having a diverse campus is appealing. Also, foreign students who are able to afford US schools tend to come from affluent backgrounds and have really strong educations. They are smart.
I work at a university, and I can confirm that the massive tuition rates laid on foreign students is the MOST important factor by far. Like, by FAAARRRRR. It's really the only thing that matters in this context. Having a diverse campus is neither here nor there. It would be diverse if no foreign students attended because Canada (and the US) are already really diverse. And FYI, most of those students are from China and other Asian nations where the education systems are corrupt as fuck. Many of the institutions these students are coming from just sold the grades to them. Of course some of these students are super-smart and very hard workers. But many of them really struggle, and cheat like crazy because they couldn't pass if they didn't. The cheat rates are now up at 40%, and the vast majority of those doing the cheating are those who have money and also have very poor English skills and can barely get by. They come here and expect to be able to buy their degrees like they would be able to where they come from. When they find out they can't, they get really stressed and find any way they can to get through it. There is also a very high depression/anxiety/suicide rate among foreign students because of these issues. And yes, students who can't really speak English in English language universities really do disrupt learning too. It's a bad scene. And the language testing requirement programs are a joke. The students also find ways to cheat on that as well, and they can take the tests over and over again until they memorize the questions and answers and pass that way.
And aside from all this, there is the problem of them filling a ton of space in our universities because they pay so much, but then they just take their degrees and go back home. So just because they are willing to pay a shitload of money, they take spots in the schools from domestic students who would be a benefit to our own country with that education.... I don't blame the student here. I blame the system that allows this to happen.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
That's really interesting. My experience in the states has been graduate students, mostly from India. They all basically came from India Institute of Technology and were smart as hell. And they all came from money. We hired them as engineers. On the negative side, they were misogynistic and struggled to compromise.
That's really interesting. My experience in the states has been graduate students, mostly from India. They all basically came from India Institute of Technology and were smart as hell. And they all came from money. We hired them as engineers. On the negative side, they were misogynistic and struggled to compromise.
Ah, yes, some from India too. They don't really bring so much of the same issues because most of them are way better at English when they arrive, and it seems that those who make it to that point really were successful in school before that. I think the Indian university system is better than China's in that it isn't as corrupt. The students don't expect to pay their way through it. But yes, one thing I noticed about the male students from India is that they would often try to really aggressively bully the female administrators into giving them what they want. They tried it on me TONS of times. They obviously didn't know who they were dealing with. I've even had a couple of male students from India threaten me with law suits because I wouldn't bend the rules for them. Middle Eastern male students are the same. Actually, they're worse (the women are generally lovely). Obviously I'm speaking generally here - many India and Chinese students don't do what I'm saying; I'm just saying the common problems that trend with those demographics.
Also, Masters student are a whole different ballgame. I'm talking undergrad only here. You can't get into a Masters program if you do what I've described... Although I will say that English language skills still pose a problem with Masters students sometimes, but by then it's because they have to teach, and their speaking English is too poor/accent is too strong. I was actually forced to just not attend a couple of classes when I was a student because the TAs running my classes literally couldn't be understood. There was no point in going. And we do get a few complaints about this issue now. But that is the exception with Masters students, not the rule.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Interesting. The open admissions means everyone gets in. However you may be wait listed for some courses if overcrowded. The reality is though that these regional campuses, etc that have open admissions need the $ from the students.
Well yes. Having a bunch of empty seats is financial ruin for any college. Getting enrollment numbers up is a really high priority - the highest - for administration. That's true for schools in all systems, be they private or public or completely covered by the state.
And regardless of "can" vs "will", a student still has to complete the coursework at an acceptable level. And schools must monitor their programs to retain accreditation.
Remember that reducing the supply of school seats will only increase the tuition rate. Good for Ohio State for having regional campuses to accept as many students who want to better themselves.
Its astate schools in Ohio. University of cincinnati included.
That's really interesting. My experience in the states has been graduate students, mostly from India. They all basically came from India Institute of Technology and were smart as hell. And they all came from money. We hired them as engineers. On the negative side, they were misogynistic and struggled to compromise.
The engineering masters programs have a lot of Asian and Indian students. I was basically begged to go to masters and got free tuition and a stipend cause I was American.
And, while not all, many male Indian engineers are very backwards when it comes to women. They live like the US in the 50’s. In the workplace some are also terrible bosses because their culture is to please their boss. So they don’t buffer their direct reports from the nonsense and expect no contradiction/input. Again, not all, but enough that it’s certainly cultural. Heck my company offered and even forced others to attend a class on the Indian culture due to many issues. Kinda the ring way to handle that in my opinion. A bit one sided, it’s an American company and the sites were in America. Perhaps they should also learn the American mgmt style? To at least understand it? Anyhoo.
It's true, the position of women in those cultures is still eons behind, despite the fact that it's a fight in those places. I hope change comes really really fast in those cultures. It is definitely progressing, but it is SO far behind the west, that it's impossible to feel patient about slow change, while billions of women suffer. It's the biggest human right crisis on the face of the planet by far (and let's not exclude the west here completely. We're eons ahead in terms of women's rights, but it's still a big problem in some ways, and we need to focus on more progress in our own cultures too).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
That's really interesting. My experience in the states has been graduate students, mostly from India. They all basically came from India Institute of Technology and were smart as hell. And they all came from money. We hired them as engineers. On the negative side, they were misogynistic and struggled to compromise.
The engineering masters programs have a lot of Asian and Indian students. I was basically begged to go to masters and got free tuition and a stipend cause I was American.
And, while not all, many male Indian engineers are very backwards when it comes to women. They live like the US in the 50’s. In the workplace some are also terrible bosses because their culture is to please their boss. So they don’t buffer their direct reports from the nonsense and expect no contradiction/input. Again, not all, but enough that it’s certainly cultural. Heck my company offered and even forced others to attend a class on the Indian culture due to many issues. Kinda the ring way to handle that in my opinion. A bit one sided, it’s an American company and the sites were in America. Perhaps they should also learn the American mgmt style? To at least understand it? Anyhoo.
They hit the ceiling in our company because of the issue with women in particular. This is when I was with Capital One which is a very progressive company. Many ended up frustrated and went back to India once they got to a senior director type role and could go no further. The only exception I saw in 14 years was a man that I really respected and he was my boss early in my career. He was as kind and smart as they come. He's the CEO of a fortune 500 now. Interestingly he was the only Christian I met.
Has anyone actually read the Green Proposal yet?!?
Thoughts on it?
Have fun walking when she does away with fossil fuels by 2030. Or be prepared to take a small mortgage out for an electric car. Or you could just stay at home and be one of the unwilling to work and get free money...so all will good.
Has anyone actually read the Green Proposal yet?!?
Thoughts on it?
Have fun walking when she does away with fossil fuels by 2030. Or be prepared to take a small mortgage out for an electric car. Or you could just stay at home and be one of the unwilling to work and get free money...so all will good.
Has anyone actually read the Green Proposal yet?!?
Thoughts on it?
Have fun walking when she does away with fossil fuels by 2030. Or be prepared to take a small mortgage out for an electric car. Or you could just stay at home and be one of the unwilling to work and get free money...so all will good.
Has anyone actually read the Green Proposal yet?!?
Thoughts on it?
Have fun walking when she does away with fossil fuels by 2030. Or be prepared to take a small mortgage out for an electric car. Or you could just stay at home and be one of the unwilling to work and get free money...so all will good.
So you haven't read it then...
Some of it. As soon as someone claims we can eliminate fossil fuels in 11 years, I tend to write them off, even more so from over paid politicians.
I've read some of it, by no means all of it. Where it's specific it is ambitious but necessary. Anyone who denies the need has their head in the sand and no knowledge of the state of the science. However, it's not going to happen anyway, due to human desire for convenience.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Just read through it. It isn't as crazy as AOC's post, but still leaves more questions than answers. One, it doesn't really say how they plan to accomplish any of this. One big questions are the public transportation. They want to invest in a high speed rail. Why? That was one of Califronia's biggest failures in the last decade. Lets invest in something that has a proven success, not a proven failure. And I am convinced public transportation isn't feasible for everyone within this time frame. You would need a system that covers hundreds of square miles to fill the needs of LA. There's other questions, that was just one topic.
Has anyone actually read the Green Proposal yet?!?
Thoughts on it?
Have fun walking when she does away with fossil fuels by 2030. Or be prepared to take a small mortgage out for an electric car. Or you could just stay at home and be one of the unwilling to work and get free money...so all will good.
So you haven't read it then...
Some of it. As soon as someone claims we can eliminate fossil fuels in 11 years, I tend to write them off, even more so from over paid politicians.
That is fair. I'm having the same conversations with other friends and they can't and won't get past that point either.
Even though it says to remove all fossil fuels it also mentions in parts 6Bi and 8H that they will do so "as much as feasibly possible" which I take it to mean that not EVERYTHING will be eliminated.
Until we get China on board with a deal I don't think it is going to make much of a difference other than send more business their way. The lack of regulations is one reason it is so much cheaper to produce over there. With one one of the goals to increase domestic production of goods, I just dont see that happening without cooperation from China.
Comments
Admission criteria
If you have never attended college, you can be admitted to a regional campus if you are an Ohio resident with a degree from a chartered high school or a GED.
Straight from Ohio State's admissions page. They let any high school grad into their branch campuses.
https://undergrad.osu.edu/apply/freshmen-columbus/who-gets-in
"Every year, the main campus in Columbus takes just under half of applicants, prompting thousands of would-be Buckeyes who aren’t accepted to begin their Ohio State careers at one of four regional campuses."
https://www.dispatch.com/news/20170219/ohio-states-regional-campuses-tested-by-enrollment-trends
"The smaller campuses are open admission, meaning they accept any Ohio resident with a high-school diploma or the equivalent."
Interesting. The open admissions means everyone gets in. However you may be wait listed for some courses if overcrowded. The reality is though that these regional campuses, etc that have open admissions need the $ from the students.
Remember that reducing the supply of school seats will only increase the tuition rate. Good for Ohio State for having regional campuses to accept as many students who want to better themselves.
On the negative side, they were misogynistic and struggled to compromise.
And, while not all, many male Indian engineers are very backwards when it comes to women. They live like the US in the 50’s. In the workplace some are also terrible bosses because their culture is to please their boss. So they don’t buffer their direct reports from the nonsense and expect no contradiction/input. Again, not all, but enough that it’s certainly cultural. Heck my company offered and even forced others to attend a class on the Indian culture due to many issues. Kinda the ring way to handle that in my opinion. A bit one sided, it’s an American company and the sites were in America. Perhaps they should also learn the American mgmt style? To at least understand it? Anyhoo.
Thoughts on it?
This is the 14 page document.
One, it doesn't really say how they plan to accomplish any of this.
One big questions are the public transportation. They want to invest in a high speed rail. Why? That was one of Califronia's biggest failures in the last decade. Lets invest in something that has a proven success, not a proven failure. And I am convinced public transportation isn't feasible for everyone within this time frame. You would need a system that covers hundreds of square miles to fill the needs of LA.
There's other questions, that was just one topic.
Even though it says to remove all fossil fuels it also mentions in parts 6Bi and 8H that they will do so "as much as feasibly possible" which I take it to mean that not EVERYTHING will be eliminated.