Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,405
    edited May 17
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

    i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

    now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 
    I don't care if people don't think it's against women. It IS against women. Period. Those who don't "think" of it that way just aren't thinking enough in general - they are ignoring the most important issue.
    well, then, there's really no need for this discussion to continue. 

    *case closed*
    Anti-choice laws make slaves of women. Yes indeed, case closed.
    We are all slaves to our body and all things 
    that happen to it anyways. 
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

    i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

    now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 
    I don't care if people don't think it's against women. It IS against women. Period. Those who don't "think" of it that way just aren't thinking enough in general - they are ignoring the most important issue.
    well, then, there's really no need for this discussion to continue. 

    *case closed*
    Anti-choice laws make slaves of women. Yes indeed, case closed.
    We are all slaves to our body and all things 
    that happen to it anyways. 
    Wtf?? I don't think you even understand what I'm talking about based on that comment.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,053
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,405
    Are you not equating being forced to carry a child to being a slave of your body? 
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186
    Are you not equating being forced to carry a child to being a slave of your body? 
    No, not at all.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186
    edited May 17
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,405
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
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  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 10,898
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 
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  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,405
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 
    That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    Here are some articles for you to read (to save time in info gathering, these aren't necessarily the greatest sources, but definitely do touch on the important points. I could also present many, many more, but.... I'll consider it amazing if you even read all of these). And you, too, need to read A Handmaid's Tale, as it happens to be the best book that touches on this concept (in an amazing literary way of course - it's fiction - by the GREAT Margaret Atwood). Maybe you will start to get the gist, because I get the impression you just aren't aware of weight of this issue. But also remember.... Restricting anyone's right to govern their own person, their own body, is harmful in and of itself. I hope you understand that. And also that it's unconstitutional, so it also endangers everyone in America, not just women.













    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,405
    edited May 17
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    Here are some articles for you to read (to save time in info gathering, these aren't necessarily the greatest sources, but definitely do touch on the important points. I could also present many, many more, but.... I'll consider it amazing if you even read all of these). And you, too, need to read A Handmaid's Tale, as it happens to be the best book that touches on this concept (in an amazing literary way of course - it's fiction - by the GREAT Margaret Atwood). Maybe you will start to get the gist, because I get the impression you just aren't aware of weight of this issue. But also remember.... Restricting anyone's right to govern their own person, their own body, is harmful in and of itself. I hope you understand that. And also that it's unconstitutional, so it also endangers everyone in America, not just women.













    But you see, that is where we fundamentally disagree. At a certain point, it isn’t just a woman’s body anymore. 

    That is what makes it so different from other rights. 
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186

    Elizabeth Warren Has a Plan to Save Abortion Rights



    Sadly and pathetically, I bet American liberals aren't even going to consider this one of the main issues when considering who would be best to win the primaries.



    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,053
    yes, of course, if we disagree, we just don't know enough about it. "I thought it was obvious". "you need to read this to get the gist". "you just aren't understanding the weight of this issue". 

    the condescension is a nice touch. 

    if there is no room for debate, what's the point of discussion?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,053
    yes, Handmaid's Tale is a work of fiction. that's about as much of a stretch as one can make. 
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,405
    Another argument I hear often is that the future child's quality of life might be horrible given the circumstances they are being born into. I don’t understand how anyone can just have the right or thought that you are saving them from that instead of allowing them to live a life and hopefully make their way. 
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  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 10,898
    PJ_Soul said:

    Elizabeth Warren Has a Plan to Save Abortion Rights



    Sadly and pathetically, I bet American liberals aren't even going to consider this one of the main issues when considering who would be best to win the primaries.
    As it stands now, there is one thing and one thing only that American liberals are going to take into account when voting in the primaries: who can defeat Trump. It's up to Warren and every other non-Biden candidate to change that. If they can't, then they're not very good politicians. If her plan to save abortion rights is important to her, she needs to figure out a way to make it important to the masses. That's politicking.
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  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,053
    edited May 17
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    being a slave, beaten daily, watching your family members getting slaughtered, all because of the colour of your skin, and not being allowed to abort your fetus is the same. jesus christ. and I'M using hyperbole? lol

    and I don't know where the bottom rant came from. literally no one gives a shit about talking you out of anything or toning it down. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186
    edited May 17
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    being a slave, beaten daily, watching your family members getting slaughtered, all because of the colour of your skin, and not being allowed to abort your fetus is the same. jesus christ. and I'M using hyperbole? lol

    and I don't know where the bottom rant came from. literally no one gives a shit about talking you out of anything or toning it down. 
    Are you speaking for other people now?
    And there is a difference between hyperbole and metaphor, as you know. I think you also know that not all slaves fit into your very limited little description above. But personhood laws make people slaves of the state. That is the context, and I expected you to understand that. Oops.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 1,711
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 
    That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 
    I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.
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  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,405
    edited May 17
    Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

    OnWis97 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 
    That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 
    I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.
    Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186
    Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

    OnWis97 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 
    That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 
    I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.
    Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.
    This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. It's like you want to ignore reality to make the topic easier for you or something.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,947
    edited May 17
    PJ_Soul said:
    Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

    OnWis97 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 
    That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 
    I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.
    Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.
    This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. It's like you want to ignore reality to make the topic easier for you or something.
    This is gold coming from the person that keeps referring to The Handmaiden’s Tale over and over as if it were truth.  As if the fictional story is something people should consider when discussing this topic.  Talk about jumping into something outside of the boundaries of reality!  I love The Handmaiden’s Tale as much as anyone, but if we’re talking fiction...can you imagine how the Avengers would have faired if Tony Stark had been aborted?  Lol
     
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
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  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,405
    edited May 17
    Nothing about this is easy. That is why, like yourself, I care so much about it. And I have grown as an individual to what my beliefs are today. Ask me a year ago and I would have been giddy about banning abortion altogether. I just can’t accept that what is at least going to be life means nothing. 

    And sure I am a 22 year old white male. I know people love to throw that out like it means something, but it has nothing to do with taking away the rights of a woman or putting them down. And I only mention this because it seems that a mans opinion on this subject only matters to you if they agree with you. 
    Post edited by drakeheuer14 on
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    Columbia 2016
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186
    edited May 17
    PJPOWER said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

    OnWis97 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 
    That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 
    I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.
    Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.
    This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. It's like you want to ignore reality to make the topic easier for you or something.
    This is gold coming from the person that keeps referring to The Handmaiden’s Tale over and over as if it were truth.  As if the fictional story is something people should consider when discussing this topic.  Talk about jumping into something outside of the boundaries of reality!  I love The Handmaiden’s Tale as much as anyone, but if we’re talking fiction...can you imagine how the Avengers would have faired if Tony Stark had been aborted?  Lol
     
    I specifically pointed out that it is fiction, and put it in context dude, not as though it's non-fiction. What it does is provide a feel and adds to a larger perspective for the issue, and that is how I framed it. But yes, because it does present that, it is indeed something to consider, and there is nothing wrong with that. I've got an English Lit degree, and think that fiction, especially that which is written as a form of socio-political commentary, as this book was, provides a huge wealth of perspective when it comes to real life issues. It really does. You could say the same about Orwell's 1984, Huxley's Brave New World, and many, many other great works of socio-political fiction. There is a reason all these pro-choice protesters are dressing up as Handmaids you know. They aren't just being crazy.
    And it's The Handmaid's Tale. Not Handmaiden's.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,947
    edited May 17
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

    OnWis97 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 
    That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 
    I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.
    Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.
    This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. It's like you want to ignore reality to make the topic easier for you or something.
    This is gold coming from the person that keeps referring to The Handmaiden’s Tale over and over as if it were truth.  As if the fictional story is something people should consider when discussing this topic.  Talk about jumping into something outside of the boundaries of reality!  I love The Handmaiden’s Tale as much as anyone, but if we’re talking fiction...can you imagine how the Avengers would have faired if Tony Stark had been aborted?  Lol
     
    I specifically pointed out that it is fiction, and put it in context dude, not as though it's non-fiction. What it does is provide a feel and adds to a larger perspective for the issue, and that is how I framed it. But yes, because it does present that, it is indeed something to consider, and there is nothing wrong with that. I've got an English Lit degree, and think that fiction, especially that which is written as a form of socio-political commentary, as this book was, provides a huge wealth of perspective when it comes to real life issues. It really does. You could say the same about Orwell's 1984, Huxley's Brave New World, and many, many other great works of socio-political fiction. There is a reason all these pro-choice protesters are dressing up as Handmaids you know. They aren't just being crazy.
    And it's The Handmaid's Tale. Not Handmaiden's.
    This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all.  It’s like you are ignoring reality to make this topic easier for you or something.
    Thanks for the clarification there professor, although  “handmaid” and “handmaiden” mean the exact same thing.
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186
    edited May 17
    PJPOWER said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJPOWER said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Maybe men should govern men and woman govern woman? Should work out perfectly... 

    OnWis97 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    Everyone keeps mentioning the danger this poses for women. Outside of the context of abortion, what is the fear? 
    My guess is a fear that it sets a sort of precedent. A "if they can do this, what's next?" sort of thing. 
    That’s just it, what is next? I don’t think these men in the government are just full of glee to “take away a womans right.” 
    I don't think it's that far from it.  There is nooooooooooooo way abortion would be illegal if men had to undergo the nine-month ordeal and then the birth process.  Women have been second class citizens throughout almost all of world history.  And when groups start to climb out of that position, traditional powers often like to kick them back down.  I think exerting control over women is a huge part of this.
    Again why I wish men could also give birth. It would be a fun social experiment if nothing else. I think control over woman idea is just what it has morphed into.
    This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. It's like you want to ignore reality to make the topic easier for you or something.
    This is gold coming from the person that keeps referring to The Handmaiden’s Tale over and over as if it were truth.  As if the fictional story is something people should consider when discussing this topic.  Talk about jumping into something outside of the boundaries of reality!  I love The Handmaiden’s Tale as much as anyone, but if we’re talking fiction...can you imagine how the Avengers would have faired if Tony Stark had been aborted?  Lol
     
    I specifically pointed out that it is fiction, and put it in context dude, not as though it's non-fiction. What it does is provide a feel and adds to a larger perspective for the issue, and that is how I framed it. But yes, because it does present that, it is indeed something to consider, and there is nothing wrong with that. I've got an English Lit degree, and think that fiction, especially that which is written as a form of socio-political commentary, as this book was, provides a huge wealth of perspective when it comes to real life issues. It really does. You could say the same about Orwell's 1984, Huxley's Brave New World, and many, many other great works of socio-political fiction. There is a reason all these pro-choice protesters are dressing up as Handmaids you know. They aren't just being crazy.
    And it's The Handmaid's Tale. Not Handmaiden's.
    This line of thinking makes no sense to me at all.  It’s like you are ignoring reality to make this topic easier for you or something.
    Thanks for the clarification there professor, although  “handmaid” and “handmaiden” mean the exact same thing.
    Lol. Obviously I'm not ignoring reality. Now you're just being kinda spiteful and snotty for no good reason.
    I know they mean the same, but that isn't the title of the book and not what the women in that book are called.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,186
    Ha! Just saw this on FB right now. Timely!


    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,053
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HAHA
    What are you laughing at? This is a pretty serious topic.
    I'm pretty sure actual slaves would be pretty offended by that remark. 
    I very much doubt it.
    Has it been a long time since you read The Handmaid's Tale? Maybe you need a refresher, I don't know. I'm surprised you made that comment considering the context of this conversation. I would have thought you understood the slave comparison in the context of the abortion debate. I guess not.
    Anyway, NOBODY is going to talk me out of or make me feel ashamed of being an absolutist when it comes to the this topic. There is zero room for compromise IMO, and I will always 100% be proud of being in extreme opposition. I will not tone it down, ever. The danger all this poses for women is very very real.
    being a slave, beaten daily, watching your family members getting slaughtered, all because of the colour of your skin, and not being allowed to abort your fetus is the same. jesus christ. and I'M using hyperbole? lol

    and I don't know where the bottom rant came from. literally no one gives a shit about talking you out of anything or toning it down. 
    Are you speaking for other people now?
    And there is a difference between hyperbole and metaphor, as you know. I think you also know that not all slaves fit into your very limited little description above. But personhood laws make people slaves of the state. That is the context, and I expected you to understand that. Oops.
    keep moving the goal posts. 

    first you argued that actual slaves would agree with you. now it's metaphor. which is it?

    on second thought, never mind. I expect to have a level headed conversation in these forums, not someone shouting how right they are and shutting down any and all discussion. "oops". 

    I mean, really, what is your intent here? you get all fucking hysterical out of nowhere about how you'll never have your mind changed. so what's the point of a discussion?

    there isn't one. 

    Excuse me while I go discuss the merits of watching Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure where it relates to the downfalls of the education system. 

    Be excellent to each other.  
  • dignindignin Posts: 7,181
    PJ_Soul said:
    Ha! Just saw this on FB right now. Timely!


    Too true.

    Keep up the good fight pjsoul.

    I get a kick out of all these supposed fiscal conservatives excited to pay to take care of all those unwanted babies. Especially those poorest of states. Makes a ton of sense.
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