Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,074
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    Yeah clearly.  I just wonder what people think the law should be able to charge the boyfriend/father to be in a case like this.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,949
    edited May 17
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.   For the record, I am pro-choice to a certain degree because I know that this isn’t a black and white issue and feel that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy (a life) and completely invalid ones as well.  I do not agree with people being sexually irresponsible  and yet I do not agree with women being forced to carry a rapist’s baby. 
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,467
    for those that argue life begins at conception where can i get my happy conception cards?  i can't believe i'm actually 9 months older than i thought all these years.
  • JPPJ84JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 245
    edited May 17
    PJPOWER said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.
    I think it depends how far the pregnancy is. Would the baby have been able to survive had it been born at that stage? If so it would be too late for an abortion (unless of course the mothers life is in danger) and could be considered murder.
    and yes it’s not black and white.
    for me personally life does not begin at conception. No lungs, no brain, no way the fetus would be able to actually live
    Post edited by JPPJ84 on
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,984
    PJPOWER said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.   For the record, I am pro-choice to a certain degree because I know that this isn’t a black and white issue and feel that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy (a life) and completely invalid ones as well.  I do not agree with people being sexually irresponsible  and yet I do not agree with women being forced to carry a rapist’s baby. 

    It's irrelevant whether you "agree with people being sexually irresponsible" - there have been unwanted pregnancies since time immemorial, women have sought out means to end those pregnancies for roughly the same amount of time, and they will continue to do so. Making abortion more difficult to get simply raises the harms associated with it, without doing anything to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies or abortions. Your stance is just sanctimonious punishment of a woman whose behaviour you disagree with, without taking into account all the other factors. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,949
    edited May 17
    JPPJ84 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.
    I think it depends how far the pregnancy is. Would the baby have been able to survive had it been born at that stage? If so it would be too late for an abortion (unless of course the mothers life is in danger) and could be considered murder.
    and yes it’s not black and white.
    for me personally life does not begin at conception. No lungs, no brain, no way the fetus would be able to actually live
    Another grey area there, though.  Viability is somewhat determined by modern medicine.  Don’t want to get to science fictiony here, ha.  I remember having some of these fun debates in philosophy class :)

    Post edited by PJPOWER on
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,949
    edited May 17
    pjhawks said:
    for those that argue life begins at conception where can i get my happy conception cards?  i can't believe i'm actually 9 months older than i thought all these years.
    Ha, my child was born two weeks after his due date.  So he was fully formed, just cushy in mommy’s womb :). Had been sucking on his wrist so much inside the womb that he had a hicky on it!  Should he be considered older than he is...no, but he was definitely “alive” before his actual birth.

    Post edited by PJPOWER on
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,949
    edited May 17
    PJPOWER said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.   For the record, I am pro-choice to a certain degree because I know that this isn’t a black and white issue and feel that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy (a life) and completely invalid ones as well.  I do not agree with people being sexually irresponsible  and yet I do not agree with women being forced to carry a rapist’s baby. 

    It's irrelevant whether you "agree with people being sexually irresponsible" - there have been unwanted pregnancies since time immemorial, women have sought out means to end those pregnancies for roughly the same amount of time, and they will continue to do so. Making abortion more difficult to get simply raises the harms associated with it, without doing anything to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies or abortions. Your stance is just sanctimonious punishment of a woman whose behaviour you disagree with, without taking into account all the other factors. 
    I think you are being dismissive to my point that was exactly what you ended your comment with...all factors must be accounted for.  I cannot bring myself to be supportive of abortions on a whim.  
    “Sanctimonious punishment of women”...please...Can I conclude that you are more on the “black and white” side of opinions with this issue?
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,841
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    depends, really. some states will charge for in utero death in some circumstances.
    I assume those charges are based on which term the mother is in.


    from 1994 in California, no less....


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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,841
    then theres this. read all of the provisions of the newest law from Georgia....


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,984
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.   For the record, I am pro-choice to a certain degree because I know that this isn’t a black and white issue and feel that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy (a life) and completely invalid ones as well.  I do not agree with people being sexually irresponsible  and yet I do not agree with women being forced to carry a rapist’s baby. 

    It's irrelevant whether you "agree with people being sexually irresponsible" - there have been unwanted pregnancies since time immemorial, women have sought out means to end those pregnancies for roughly the same amount of time, and they will continue to do so. Making abortion more difficult to get simply raises the harms associated with it, without doing anything to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies or abortions. Your stance is just sanctimonious punishment of a woman whose behaviour you disagree with, without taking into account all the other factors. 
    I think you are being dismissive to my point that was exactly what you ended your comment with...all factors must be accounted for.  I cannot bring myself to be supportive of abortions on a whim.  
    “Sanctimonious punishment of women”...please...Can I conclude that you are more on the “black and white” side of opinions with this issue?
    Black and white? Yes, and so are you. It’s a binary decision - one is either for a woman’s right to control her own body, or not; either pro-choice, or not. There’s no such thing as “kind of an abortion”, so when it’s a yes or no decision, it’s black and white. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,949
    edited May 17
    mickeyrat said:
    then theres this. read all of the provisions of the newest law from Georgia....


    From the article:
    “if they can prove the miscarriage was a result of the woman's own conduct, like drug or alcohol use, as Slate argued.”

    Don’t some states consider it child abuse to do drugs while pregnant?  I know that babies born with drugs or alcohol in their system or experiencing withdrawals at birth are often removed from the parents and the mothers can face abuse charges.  
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,949
    edited May 17
    PJPOWER said:
    PJPOWER said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.   For the record, I am pro-choice to a certain degree because I know that this isn’t a black and white issue and feel that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy (a life) and completely invalid ones as well.  I do not agree with people being sexually irresponsible  and yet I do not agree with women being forced to carry a rapist’s baby. 

    It's irrelevant whether you "agree with people being sexually irresponsible" - there have been unwanted pregnancies since time immemorial, women have sought out means to end those pregnancies for roughly the same amount of time, and they will continue to do so. Making abortion more difficult to get simply raises the harms associated with it, without doing anything to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies or abortions. Your stance is just sanctimonious punishment of a woman whose behaviour you disagree with, without taking into account all the other factors. 
    I think you are being dismissive to my point that was exactly what you ended your comment with...all factors must be accounted for.  I cannot bring myself to be supportive of abortions on a whim.  
    “Sanctimonious punishment of women”...please...Can I conclude that you are more on the “black and white” side of opinions with this issue?
    Black and white? Yes, and so are you. It’s a binary decision - one is either for a woman’s right to control her own body, or not; either pro-choice, or not. There’s no such thing as “kind of an abortion”, so when it’s a yes or no decision, it’s black and white. 
    Yeah, I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye on this, but thanks for your respectful opinion.  I probably would not vote for a candidate that aligns with your ideology if it
    were the deciding topic in the election.
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 1,713
    edited May 17
    PJPOWER said:
    mickeyrat said:
    then theres this. read all of the provisions of the newest law from Georgia....


    From the article:
    “if they can prove the miscarriage was a result of the woman's own conduct, like drug or alcohol use, as Slate argued.”

    Don’t some states consider it child abuse to do drugs while pregnant?  I know that babies born with drugs or alcohol in their system or experiencing withdrawals at birth are often removed from the parents and the mothers can face abuse charges.  
    That has to be a frightening prospect for a black woman that is pregnant or wishes to be though...this seems like something that's going to turn into arbitrary interpretations and enforcement.  Anyone with faith that it's going to be administered justly (to whatever extent it's just in the first place) is pretty naive.  Women on trial because of a miscarriage are going to be treated like, well, rape victims.  Blood-thirst prosecuters will find about about their sexual past, fights they were in in high school, and other acts unrelated to the pregnancy. Will DUIs from their past be used as assumptions that they caused something to happen now?  Will they be jailed, or not, based on what juries think of them as people.  Will actual experts be ignored in favor of the ferver to get "justice" for the innocent unborn child?  This law is rooted in the idea of a fetus being more valuable than a woman (or girl).  Miscarriages are common and drug laws are used to lock black men up all the time.  Is this going to be the way to lock black women up?  It's pretty scary.

    EDIT: The prosecutor's role will probably be to plead them down to a felony with minimal punishment and minimal court hassle.  Then they won't be able to vote.
    Post edited by OnWis97 on
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  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,949
    edited May 17
    OnWis97 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    mickeyrat said:
    then theres this. read all of the provisions of the newest law from Georgia....


    From the article:
    “if they can prove the miscarriage was a result of the woman's own conduct, like drug or alcohol use, as Slate argued.”

    Don’t some states consider it child abuse to do drugs while pregnant?  I know that babies born with drugs or alcohol in their system or experiencing withdrawals at birth are often removed from the parents and the mothers can face abuse charges.  
    That has to be a frightening prospect for a black woman that is pregnant or wishes to be though...this seems like something that's going to turn into arbitrary interpretations and enforcement.  Anyone with faith that it's going to be administered justly (to whatever extent it's just in the first place) is pretty naive.  Women on trial because of a miscarriage are going to be treated like, well, rape victims.  Blood-thirst prosecuters will find about about their sexual past, fights they were in in high school, and other acts unrelated to the pregnancy. Will DUIs from their past be used as assumptions that they caused something to happen now?  Will they be jailed, or not, based on what juries think of them as people.  Will actual experts be ignored in favor of the ferver to get "justice" for the innocent unborn child?  This law is rooted in the idea of a fetus being more valuable than a woman (or girl).  Miscarriages are common and drug laws are used to lock black men up all the time.  Is this going to be the way to lock black women up?  It's pretty scary.
    Those are great questions.  Drug laws do effect the populations where they proliferate, which is unfortunately in low income areas and often in areas with high black demographics (for whatever reason people want to conclude).  So, yes, these laws would disproportionately effect those areas more than your high income areas.  Bill Clinton found that out the hard way when pushing the search and seize laws in the 90s.  But what laws (other than tax evasion or money laundering etc) don’t?  It could be argued that gun control laws would directly disproportionately effect those demographics to a greater degree too...
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,841
    OnWis97 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    mickeyrat said:
    then theres this. read all of the provisions of the newest law from Georgia....


    From the article:
    “if they can prove the miscarriage was a result of the woman's own conduct, like drug or alcohol use, as Slate argued.”

    Don’t some states consider it child abuse to do drugs while pregnant?  I know that babies born with drugs or alcohol in their system or experiencing withdrawals at birth are often removed from the parents and the mothers can face abuse charges.  
    That has to be a frightening prospect for a black woman that is pregnant or wishes to be though...this seems like something that's going to turn into arbitrary interpretations and enforcement.  Anyone with faith that it's going to be administered justly (to whatever extent it's just in the first place) is pretty naive.  Women on trial because of a miscarriage are going to be treated like, well, rape victims.  Blood-thirst prosecuters will find about about their sexual past, fights they were in in high school, and other acts unrelated to the pregnancy. Will DUIs from their past be used as assumptions that they caused something to happen now?  Will they be jailed, or not, based on what juries think of them as people.  Will actual experts be ignored in favor of the ferver to get "justice" for the innocent unborn child?  This law is rooted in the idea of a fetus being more valuable than a woman (or girl).  Miscarriages are common and drug laws are used to lock black men up all the time.  Is this going to be the way to lock black women up?  It's pretty scary.

    EDIT: The prosecutor's role will probably be to plead them down to a felony with minimal punishment and minimal court hassle.  Then they won't be able to vote.
    or run for office......
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,325
    Missouri just banned Abortion after 8 weeks.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,189
    PJ_Soul said:
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

    i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

    now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 
    I don't care if people don't think it's against women. It IS against women. Period. Those who don't "think" of it that way just aren't thinking enough in general - they are ignoring the most important issue.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 16,171
    missouri just passed 8 week abortion ban. fuck my state, and fuck the republicans in our state government.
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  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,325
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

    i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

    now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 
    I don't care if people don't think it's against women. It IS against women. Period. Those who don't "think" of it that way just aren't thinking enough in general - they are ignoring the most important issue.
    Of course, it's against women...as a man I'm appalled...

    Of course, I believe it's your body...do as you please...it's the one thing we truly can call our own.
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,410
    edited May 17
    Government shouldn't be able to tell me to buckle up, my body, my choice. Shouldn’t be able to tell me what drugs I can use, my body, my choice... 

    When it comes to the creation and argument of life, I think the government should have some sort of say. We all know extreme bans are harmful, but just allowing them willy nilly? Not so great
    Post edited by drakeheuer14 on
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  • mfc2006mfc2006 PDX--->KCPosts: 31,717
    missouri just passed 8 week abortion ban. fuck my state, and fuck the republicans in our state government.
    My thoughts exactly. Fucking ridiculous 
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,189
    Government shouldn't be able to tell me to buckle up, my body, my choice. Shouldn’t be able to tell me what drugs I can use, my body, my choice... 

    When it comes to the creation and argument of life, I think the government should have some sort of say. We all know extreme bans are harmful, but just allowing them willy nilly? Not so great
    No, the government absolutely should not have any sort of say about what is going on INSIDE of someone's body. That is crazy.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,054
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

    i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

    now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 
    I don't care if people don't think it's against women. It IS against women. Period. Those who don't "think" of it that way just aren't thinking enough in general - they are ignoring the most important issue.
    well, then, there's really no need for this discussion to continue. 

    *case closed*
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,054
    PJ_Soul said:
    Government shouldn't be able to tell me to buckle up, my body, my choice. Shouldn’t be able to tell me what drugs I can use, my body, my choice... 

    When it comes to the creation and argument of life, I think the government should have some sort of say. We all know extreme bans are harmful, but just allowing them willy nilly? Not so great
    No, the government absolutely should not have any sort of say about what is going on INSIDE of someone's body. That is crazy.
    yet you want to forcefully vaccinate young children against their/their parents' will. how do those two things line up?
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,074
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    depends, really. some states will charge for in utero death in some circumstances.
    I assume those charges are based on which term the mother is in.


    from 1994 in California, no less....


    I was more looking for the opinions of people here that are ok with abortion.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,074
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

    i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

    now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 
    I don't care if people don't think it's against women. It IS against women. Period. Those who don't "think" of it that way just aren't thinking enough in general - they are ignoring the most important issue.
    well, then, there's really no need for this discussion to continue. 

    *case closed*
    This again huh?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,189
    PJ_Soul said:
    Government shouldn't be able to tell me to buckle up, my body, my choice. Shouldn’t be able to tell me what drugs I can use, my body, my choice... 

    When it comes to the creation and argument of life, I think the government should have some sort of say. We all know extreme bans are harmful, but just allowing them willy nilly? Not so great
    No, the government absolutely should not have any sort of say about what is going on INSIDE of someone's body. That is crazy.
    yet you want to forcefully vaccinate young children against their/their parents' will. how do those two things line up?
    Absolutely, because that is a public health issue that affects others, and public safety always comes before individual rights. But abortion is not a public safety issue - it is solely about what is happening inside of one person's body. I thought that would have been obvious.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,189
    edited May 17
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

    i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

    now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 
    I don't care if people don't think it's against women. It IS against women. Period. Those who don't "think" of it that way just aren't thinking enough in general - they are ignoring the most important issue.
    well, then, there's really no need for this discussion to continue. 

    *case closed*
    Anti-choice laws make slaves of women. Yes indeed, case closed.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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