I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
I can't speak for other religions (hell, I can't speak for Christianity. It's just what I grew up around) but it's existence relies on people jammingbjt down everyone's throat. Doesn't Christianity teach that all Christians must spread the word? Why do you think people always say "I'll pray for you?" Aren't they praying that you or whoever will turn to Christ?
This is certainly true for Christianity. You're supposed to proselytize. If you're a "true Christian", a "good Christian", you're supposed to be an evangelical. I got interested in the Jesus movement for a while back in the seventies because some of the people I knew who were into it were very kind and giving but the two things that turned me off were the notions of having to say the right words ("I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior") to get into heaven (otherwise you go to hell? fuck that) and the insistence that you had to proselytize to be a true Christian. No thanks.
I hate that! So basically, as long as you accept Jesus..., it can be on your deathbed but you'll still get into heaven, regardless of what kind of person you were in life? Even if heaven existed, that wouldn't be right. What does that even mean? What's the point? I respect others' religious beliefs but when they start pushing them on me...it's on! They better have some damn good arguments. They never do.
this is yet another in a long list of things I never understood about it, as you mentioned here. It was even made into a joke on the Simpsons when Homer quit going to church. Another character asked him about getting into heaven, and Homer replied "meh, I'll recant on my deathbed". it's such a stupid idea.
Not so stupid. It's the whole, you can always be forgiven....but you have to mean it. It's not really meant as an excuse to do a bunch of terrible things and then get away with it...
But it sure works as one.
If the world lasts that long... people will eventually 'wise up'.
I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
It's easy to make the argument that faith IS insanity. If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane. If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane. Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
I don't get weird looks, but I don't live in the bible belt. It's another reason the USA is so backwards (In many areas).
Another good Gervais.
… If you took every holy book, every
holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of
spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them… then you took every
science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years’ time, those science books would be back exactly the same, because the tests would always turn out the same.
Those religious books would either never exist or they’d be totally different
Wow genius....describing the difference between science and faith...who knew.
I don't get weird looks, but I don't live in the bible belt. It's another reason the USA is so backwards (In many areas).
Another good Gervais.
… If you took every holy book, every
holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of
spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them… then you took every
science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years’ time, those science books would be back exactly the same, because the tests would always turn out the same.
Those religious books would either never exist or they’d be totally different
Wow genius....describing the difference between science and faith...who knew.
Who knew? Not religious people.
Take a look at a science text from just 20 years ago, very different. From 50 years ago wont even be close to the same thing. So to say that in 1000 years science books would be exactly the same isnt accurate. Now it is true science won;t change in 1000 years, but our understanding of it definitely will. They'll probably look back and laugh at the idea of what we thought an atom was, just like we laugh at what scientists 100 years ago thought an atom was.
I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
It's easy to make the argument that faith IS insanity. If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane. If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane. Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
That's the way I look at it....hearing someone say "I strongly believe in the tooth fairy" (or Easter Bunny, Bigfoot, Santa Claus) is equal to "I strongly believe in God"
If you give it some thought there is really no difference
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I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
It's easy to make the argument that faith IS insanity. If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane. If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane. Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
That's the way I look at it....hearing someone say "I strongly believe in the tooth fairy" (or Easter Bunny, Bigfoot, Santa Claus) is equal to "I strongly believe in God"
If you give it some thought there is really no difference
I totally agree. There is no difference whatsoever besides that fact that the insanity of religion has been normalized.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
It's easy to make the argument that faith IS insanity. If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane. If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane. Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
That's the way I look at it....hearing someone say "I strongly believe in the tooth fairy" (or Easter Bunny, Bigfoot, Santa Claus) is equal to "I strongly believe in God"
If you give it some thought there is really no difference
I totally agree. There is no difference whatsoever besides that fact that the insanity of religion has been normalized.
I wouldn't say it has been normalized, because it has always been normal. Every civilization starting from thousands of years ago believed in god(s). I think the opposite, it is becoming more normal to not be religious. I don't doubt the scenario the OP described happened, and that it can be awkward in some situations to state you don't believe in God. But I have experienced the same as a believer. These conversations are pretty common, comparing Christianity or the tooth fairy or something. It pretty awkward to be in the lunch room at work with that conversation and they stop and ask if anyone goes to church. Happens at work and social situation. Not every day, but it isn't uncommon to have remarks. I couldn't care less here when its some online forum, but it can be very uncomfortable when it happens in person. My (former) supervisor has mocked religion at least twice in front of our whole department. One time he made fun of Easter and Jesus, and that we worship a zombie, knowing that about half of the department was religious. And another time was directed at me when I asked a serious question He didn't like the question, so instead of answering it he responded with "You're worse than those mom's on Facebook. That's what you get for watching Fox News." I don't watch Fox News, he said that because he knows I'm religious and wanted to put me down in front of everyone for my personal beliefs. Again, I referred to him as my "former" supervisor. He wasn't liked at all.
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
That's exactly how I am. I like discussing religion, no matter what it is. I'm just curious and like to hear others' perspectives and experiences. I'm not going to convert to anything, but I still want to learn. There's no such thing as too much knowledge.
I don't get weird looks, but I don't live in the bible belt. It's another reason the USA is so backwards (In many areas).
Another good Gervais.
… If you took every holy book, every
holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of
spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them… then you took every
science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years’ time, those science books would be back exactly the same, because the tests would always turn out the same.
Those religious books would either never exist or they’d be totally different
Wow genius....describing the difference between science and faith...who knew.
I don't get weird looks, but I don't live in the bible belt. It's another reason the USA is so backwards (In many areas).
Another good Gervais.
… If you took every holy book, every
holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of
spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them… then you took every
science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years’ time, those science books would be back exactly the same, because the tests would always turn out the same.
Those religious books would either never exist or they’d be totally different
Wow genius....describing the difference between science and faith...who knew.
Who knew? Not religious people.
Take a look at a science text from just 20 years ago, very different. From 50 years ago wont even be close to the same thing. So to say that in 1000 years science books would be exactly the same isnt accurate. Now it is true science won;t change in 1000 years, but our understanding of it definitely will. They'll probably look back and laugh at the idea of what we thought an atom was, just like we laugh at what scientists 100 years ago thought an atom was.
Great point Mace. Science is fact until a new science replaces the old because of technological advancements. It's only proven as much as we can comprehend it to be, much like people's faith. As Brian mentioned earlier, humans lack the ability to comprehend "god" and the intricacies of the universe. I believe in the existence of more than we can comprehend as human beings, but I don't know what it is or if we will ever be able to know based on the limitations of our brains. We may get there someday, but I am not hopeful. Maybe that will be the future of those capable of advanced neurological ability and the rest will be weeded out...or we as stupid humans will lynch them in fear and continue our stupid ways.
I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
It's easy to make the argument that faith IS insanity. If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane. If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane. Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
That's the way I look at it....hearing someone say "I strongly believe in the tooth fairy" (or Easter Bunny, Bigfoot, Santa Claus) is equal to "I strongly believe in God"
If you give it some thought there is really no difference
i have given it some thought and actually, there is a difference. a pretty big difference.
humans have a condition where they need to know where they come from, and why. there really is no purpose to santa or the tooth fairy except to have fun with our kids, to make religious holidays fun for them, to further indoctrinate them (if i'm going to be totally cynical).
humans are constantly asking the question, 'why am i here?", 'what is the point of life?", independent of anyone else's thoughts/biases/beliefs. if a person were raised completely isolated and alone, i believe this question would still enter one's mind. 'what created me?". 'why am i here?".
organized religion merely takes advantage of those insecurities and questions and attempts to answer them in exchange for money and power.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
There's definitely some snobs. Being Christian or any religion doesn't make you less prone to being weird, a douche, snob, an idiot, evil desires, or anything else. So there's always some of that in every group. But also just not wanting to bring up a taboo topic is going to play a role. Politics and religion are the big taboos for work and social parties. They might be uncomfortable become sometimes people may just not want to talk about a hot topic with coworkers. Or sometimes people are made to feel uncomfortable about it. I'm not saying you did. But look at all the negative comments people made about religion. When I overhear some conversations like that it can make me reluctant to bring it up or talk about it. You can bet with my last example, I would never discuss it while my supervisor was in the room after he openly mocks my religion, and then uses it to bring me (and sometimes others) down. it only takes 1 person in a workplace to do that to make a lot of people unwilling to be as open about it. Unfortunately there will always be those with a persecution complex. Like I said, you find the same types of people in all groups, for every person who like to openly mock or put those down with a belief, there's one who's got that persecution complex to match it.
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
I'm curious as to how your brother became so religious and your not. Are your parents religious? Were you raised to be religious?
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
Well I have honestly never met an Atheist in my whole life who asks a religious person about their faith to their face and then turned around and mocked and ridiculed them, so I'm not sure where in the hell that fear comes from. I rather think it's imagined, or at least majorly exaggerated in their heads because they think something they see on the internet has way more weight than it really does. I personally think this "my religion is under siege" idea is pure delusion (unless you're a Muslim in America, that is). What they're actually experiencing is the power of Christianity and that establishment shinking. They are the religious equivalent of those white men who are freaking out because they are losing power in modern society.
Oh, and no, I'm not agnostic in any way, shape or form. I am definitely 100% Atheist, and I don't care who that bothers. I don't think the view you're expressing is logical. As I've said before, I know God doesn't exist the same way I know a giant polk-a-dotted, cottonball breathing dragon doesn't exist. I think that saying there is no way to know that god doesn't exist is a logical absurdity. Doesn't matter to me if others don't agree with my viewpoint. I hold it unwaveringly. And no, that is not equal to the other side of the coin.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
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Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
We know Santa isn't real because he's a story we made up. We know Yahweh/Jehova/Allah/etc aren't real for the same reason. We weren't created, we evolved. Is it possible the universe was created? Yes, it is, and we don't know. The problem is that a + b doesn't equal C. The possible existence of a higher power isn't equal to the possible existence of the major God's, with all their issues elucidated in religious texts. I don't know definitively that there isn't a higher power, you better bet I know definitively that the Bible is a pile of bullshit and that God does not exist as described. Many atheists are not good at recognising and admitting that it isn't higher power they reject, it's the ridiculous men in the sky they reject. The (almost always men) ones that impregnate virgins, demand blood payments/sacrifices, torture people for misbehaving, and so on.
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
Well I have honestly never met an Atheist in my whole life who asks a religious person about their faith to their face and then turned around and mocked and ridiculed them, so I'm not sure where in the hell that fear comes from. I rather think it's imagined, or at least majorly exaggerated in their heads because they think something they see on the internet has way more weight than it really does. I personally think this "my religion is under siege" idea is pure delusion (unless you're a Muslim in America, that is). What they're actually experiencing is the power of Christianity and that establishment shinking. They are the religious equivalent of those white men who are freaking out because they are losing power in modern society.
Oh, and no, I'm not agnostic in any way, shape or form. I am definitely 100% Atheist, and I don't care who that bothers. I don't think the view you're expressing is logical. As I've said before, I know God doesn't exist the same way I know a giant polk-a-dotted, cottonball breathing dragon doesn't exist. I think that saying there is no way to know that god doesn't exist is a logical absurdity. Doesn't matter to me if others don't agree with my viewpoint. I hold it unwaveringly. And no, that is not equal to the other side of the coin.
a logical absurdity to me is thinking you know all of the secrets of the universe from your porch in vancouver.
i think saying you 'know' there is no higher power is just as ridiculous as someone saying they 'know' there is.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
I'm curious as to how your brother became so religious and your not. Are your parents religious? Were you raised to be religious?
we were raised religious, not hardcore. united. which is about as middle of the road religious as you can get to my knowledge. went to church every sunday my whole life till my parents gave me the choice when i was 12. never went again. my dad is now agnostic, my mom still goes to church for the singing. i think she still believes, but doesn't go to church every week. she did make a flippant comment a few years ago, however, about being a 'failed' parent for having 3 kids, two of which are atheists/agnostics. we and my dad largely laughed it off. she wasn't being mean. i think she just doesn't understand how my brother can be so devout and the rest of us be the opposite.
my brother, i think, always had religious tendencies, but he never really embraced them until he met his now-wife in college. she is one of 11, and she is the only religious one in her family. actually, the rest of her family are about as anti-religious as one might get. always found it fascinating how she became the way she was on her own.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
It's easy to make the argument that faith IS insanity. If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane. If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane. Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
It's easy to make the argument that faith IS insanity. If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane. If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane. Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
Interesting points
That's taking it to one extreme and isn't much of a measuring point. Someone who believes in a God is more likely to get positive feelings from discussion because it is something they believe in. Much like you experiencing pleasant feelings and thoughts for Pearl Jam (or at least I am assuming based on your membership ) when they come up in a discussion. For any human to say they are a god should be considered insane for obvious reasons unless they can show proof through miracles or acts not capable by any other human being.
It's a hopeless situation...
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2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
But it sure works as one.
If the world lasts that long... people will eventually 'wise up'.
If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane.
If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane.
Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
From 50 years ago wont even be close to the same thing.
So to say that in 1000 years science books would be exactly the same isnt accurate.
Now it is true science won;t change in 1000 years, but our understanding of it definitely will. They'll probably look back and laugh at the idea of what we thought an atom was, just like we laugh at what scientists 100 years ago thought an atom was.
If you give it some thought there is really no difference
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I totally agree. There is no difference whatsoever besides that fact that the insanity of religion has been normalized.
I don't doubt the scenario the OP described happened, and that it can be awkward in some situations to state you don't believe in God. But I have experienced the same as a believer. These conversations are pretty common, comparing Christianity or the tooth fairy or something. It pretty awkward to be in the lunch room at work with that conversation and they stop and ask if anyone goes to church. Happens at work and social situation. Not every day, but it isn't uncommon to have remarks. I couldn't care less here when its some online forum, but it can be very uncomfortable when it happens in person.
My (former) supervisor has mocked religion at least twice in front of our whole department. One time he made fun of Easter and Jesus, and that we worship a zombie, knowing that about half of the department was religious. And another time was directed at me when I asked a serious question He didn't like the question, so instead of answering it he responded with "You're worse than those mom's on Facebook. That's what you get for watching Fox News." I don't watch Fox News, he said that because he knows I'm religious and wanted to put me down in front of everyone for my personal beliefs.
Again, I referred to him as my "former" supervisor. He wasn't liked at all.
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
Moving on.
humans have a condition where they need to know where they come from, and why. there really is no purpose to santa or the tooth fairy except to have fun with our kids, to make religious holidays fun for them, to further indoctrinate them (if i'm going to be totally cynical).
humans are constantly asking the question, 'why am i here?", 'what is the point of life?", independent of anyone else's thoughts/biases/beliefs. if a person were raised completely isolated and alone, i believe this question would still enter one's mind. 'what created me?". 'why am i here?".
organized religion merely takes advantage of those insecurities and questions and attempts to answer them in exchange for money and power.
-EV 8/14/93
But also just not wanting to bring up a taboo topic is going to play a role. Politics and religion are the big taboos for work and social parties. They might be uncomfortable become sometimes people may just not want to talk about a hot topic with coworkers.
Or sometimes people are made to feel uncomfortable about it. I'm not saying you did. But look at all the negative comments people made about religion. When I overhear some conversations like that it can make me reluctant to bring it up or talk about it.
You can bet with my last example, I would never discuss it while my supervisor was in the room after he openly mocks my religion, and then uses it to bring me (and sometimes others) down. it only takes 1 person in a workplace to do that to make a lot of people unwilling to be as open about it.
Unfortunately there will always be those with a persecution complex. Like I said, you find the same types of people in all groups, for every person who like to openly mock or put those down with a belief, there's one who's got that persecution complex to match it.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
-EV 8/14/93
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Lexington-2016
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Oh, and no, I'm not agnostic in any way, shape or form. I am definitely 100% Atheist, and I don't care who that bothers. I don't think the view you're expressing is logical. As I've said before, I know God doesn't exist the same way I know a giant polk-a-dotted, cottonball breathing dragon doesn't exist. I think that saying there is no way to know that god doesn't exist is a logical absurdity. Doesn't matter to me if others don't agree with my viewpoint. I hold it unwaveringly. And no, that is not equal to the other side of the coin.
We know Yahweh/Jehova/Allah/etc aren't real for the same reason.
We weren't created, we evolved.
Is it possible the universe was created? Yes, it is, and we don't know. The problem is that a + b doesn't equal C. The possible existence of a higher power isn't equal to the possible existence of the major God's, with all their issues elucidated in religious texts.
I don't know definitively that there isn't a higher power, you better bet I know definitively that the Bible is a pile of bullshit and that God does not exist as described. Many atheists are not good at recognising and admitting that it isn't higher power they reject, it's the ridiculous men in the sky they reject. The (almost always men) ones that impregnate virgins, demand blood payments/sacrifices, torture people for misbehaving, and so on.
we will find a way, we will find our place
i think saying you 'know' there is no higher power is just as ridiculous as someone saying they 'know' there is.
-EV 8/14/93
my brother, i think, always had religious tendencies, but he never really embraced them until he met his now-wife in college. she is one of 11, and she is the only religious one in her family. actually, the rest of her family are about as anti-religious as one might get. always found it fascinating how she became the way she was on her own.
-EV 8/14/93