Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
Please leave his holiness out of this discussion. R'amen.
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
Well I have honestly never met an Atheist in my whole life who asks a religious person about their faith to their face and then turned around and mocked and ridiculed them, so I'm not sure where in the hell that fear comes from. I rather think it's imagined, or at least majorly exaggerated in their heads because they think something they see on the internet has way more weight than it really does. I personally think this "my religion is under siege" idea is pure delusion (unless you're a Muslim in America, that is). What they're actually experiencing is the power of Christianity and that establishment shinking. They are the religious equivalent of those white men who are freaking out because they are losing power in modern society.
Oh, and no, I'm not agnostic in any way, shape or form. I am definitely 100% Atheist, and I don't care who that bothers. I don't think the view you're expressing is logical. As I've said before, I know God doesn't exist the same way I know a giant polk-a-dotted, cottonball breathing dragon doesn't exist. I think that saying there is no way to know that god doesn't exist is a logical absurdity. Doesn't matter to me if others don't agree with my viewpoint. I hold it unwaveringly. And no, that is not equal to the other side of the coin.
a logical absurdity to me is thinking you know all of the secrets of the universe from your porch in vancouver.
i think saying you 'know' there is no higher power is just as ridiculous as someone saying they 'know' there is.
I don't think I know all the secrets of the universe, Mr. Sarcasm. I just know that just because something is made up by people I have no obligation to humour the idea, and I also think that to say believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people and not believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people are the same thing is extremely messed up logic. It makes no sense to act like the two are comparable.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
I'm curious as to how your brother became so religious and your not. Are your parents religious? Were you raised to be religious?
we were raised religious, not hardcore. united. which is about as middle of the road religious as you can get to my knowledge. went to church every sunday my whole life till my parents gave me the choice when i was 12. never went again. my dad is now agnostic, my mom still goes to church for the singing. i think she still believes, but doesn't go to church every week. she did make a flippant comment a few years ago, however, about being a 'failed' parent for having 3 kids, two of which are atheists/agnostics. we and my dad largely laughed it off. she wasn't being mean. i think she just doesn't understand how my brother can be so devout and the rest of us be the opposite.
my brother, i think, always had religious tendencies, but he never really embraced them until he met his now-wife in college. she is one of 11, and she is the only religious one in her family. actually, the rest of her family are about as anti-religious as one might get. always found it fascinating how she became the way she was on her own.
My own family has similarities. We were raised Anglican, sort of. Were taken to church sporadically on Sundays, went to the Easter and Christmas services, that sort of thing. I stopped going as soon as I could and have no interest in organized religion. My brother continued attending, participated in Youth Group and eventually helped lead a youth group. As an adult he and his family still attend church weekly. He sings in the choir and his son is an altar boy. But luckily, there's no conflict in our family about it. If I happen to be visiting him on a weekend he'll laughingly invite me to church with him and I will similarly decline, and then we'll all meet for brunch after services. No judgment on either side.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I don;t think it is a valid argument to say that the story of Santa is made by man so we know he is fake, just like religions are made up by man so we know they are equally fake. Those are two different things. Men have taken credit for stories of Santa. Man has not taken credit for many of the world's religions. Most religions are said to be birthed from God through prophets and other means. Even if you don't believe in God, there is still a difference between a story that the authors claim to be fake, and another story where the authors claim to be messengers of God or first hand witnesses of the accounts. I just don't see it as evidence religion is fake that some have claimed here.
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
Well I have honestly never met an Atheist in my whole life who asks a religious person about their faith to their face and then turned around and mocked and ridiculed them, so I'm not sure where in the hell that fear comes from. I rather think it's imagined, or at least majorly exaggerated in their heads because they think something they see on the internet has way more weight than it really does. I personally think this "my religion is under siege" idea is pure delusion (unless you're a Muslim in America, that is). What they're actually experiencing is the power of Christianity and that establishment shinking. They are the religious equivalent of those white men who are freaking out because they are losing power in modern society.
Oh, and no, I'm not agnostic in any way, shape or form. I am definitely 100% Atheist, and I don't care who that bothers. I don't think the view you're expressing is logical. As I've said before, I know God doesn't exist the same way I know a giant polk-a-dotted, cottonball breathing dragon doesn't exist. I think that saying there is no way to know that god doesn't exist is a logical absurdity. Doesn't matter to me if others don't agree with my viewpoint. I hold it unwaveringly. And no, that is not equal to the other side of the coin.
a logical absurdity to me is thinking you know all of the secrets of the universe from your porch in vancouver.
i think saying you 'know' there is no higher power is just as ridiculous as someone saying they 'know' there is.
I don't think I know all the secrets of the universe, Mr. Sarcasm. I just know that just because something is made up by people I have no obligation to humour the idea, and I also think that to say believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people and not believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people are the same thing is extremely messed up logic. It makes no sense to act like the two are comparable.
i am not talking about religion. that is man made. the idea that everything has a creator is not. it is logic.
I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
It's easy to make the argument that faith IS insanity. If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane. If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane. Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
Interesting points
That's taking it to one extreme and isn't much of a measuring point. Someone who believes in a God is more likely to get positive feelings from discussion because it is something they believe in. Much like you experiencing pleasant feelings and thoughts for Pearl Jam (or at least I am assuming based on your membership ) when they come up in a discussion. For any human to say they are a god should be considered insane for obvious reasons unless they can show proof through miracles or acts not capable by any other human being.
I don't see a difference. If I say I have super powers you say "you are insane, unless you can prove it". If I say there's an invisible man floating above me and HE has super powers, do you say "well I don't know, I can't prove him wrong so he might be sane." ?
I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
It's easy to make the argument that faith IS insanity. If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane. If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane. Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
Interesting points
That's taking it to one extreme and isn't much of a measuring point. Someone who believes in a God is more likely to get positive feelings from discussion because it is something they believe in. Much like you experiencing pleasant feelings and thoughts for Pearl Jam (or at least I am assuming based on your membership ) when they come up in a discussion. For any human to say they are a god should be considered insane for obvious reasons unless they can show proof through miracles or acts not capable by any other human being.
I don't see a difference. If I say I have super powers you say "you are insane, unless you can prove it". If I say there's an invisible man floating above me and HE has super powers, do you say "well I don't know, I can't prove him wrong so he might be sane." ?
i see pretty obvious differences in those two situations.
I don't believe in God either. My religious parents don't get me.
My parents are very religious. They've kept quiet for about 10 years but finally said something to me over the holidays. It really bothers them that I don't go to church. I feel bad because you never want to let down your parents. I don't know where I am at with it though. The religious person discredits evolution/big bang by saying what created the particles or whatever to make us (something from nothing?), and the atheist asks where did God come from?
Don't feel bad. It would be insane to believe in something someone tells you to believe in when there is no evidence to prove its existence. Plus, they're letting YOU down by forcing you into believing something you don't want to.
1) It’s not insane. It’s faith. And you do this too I’m sure in other areas where you believe what people say. 2) how are they letting him down...or forcing exactly?
i wasn’t at the conversation so I don’t know if it was a good conversation or judgmental. For those of faith they believe that the other will not go to heaven. So I’m sure it’s uosetting to think your kid will not be joining you. It’s all in how the conversation goes and the intent. Just because people talk about god or faith doesn’t make them wrong/evil.
It's easy to make the argument that faith IS insanity. If you tweak the circumstances away from something that happens to be indoctrinated to the point where it's widely accepted, it begins to look incredibly insane. If I start talking about faith in God it gives people fuzzy feelings so it can't be insane, but if I start talking about having faith that I AM God, it looks pretty insane. Faith that the Earth is flat doesn't look very sane, faith in Scientology isn't usually regarded as highly sane.
Interesting points
That's taking it to one extreme and isn't much of a measuring point. Someone who believes in a God is more likely to get positive feelings from discussion because it is something they believe in. Much like you experiencing pleasant feelings and thoughts for Pearl Jam (or at least I am assuming based on your membership ) when they come up in a discussion. For any human to say they are a god should be considered insane for obvious reasons unless they can show proof through miracles or acts not capable by any other human being.
I don't see a difference. If I say I have super powers you say "you are insane, unless you can prove it". If I say there's an invisible man floating above me and HE has super powers, do you say "well I don't know, I can't prove him wrong so he might be sane." ?
i see pretty obvious differences in those two situations.
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,625
Typically the person making a claim is the holder of the burden of proof, right? In this case claiming I have super powers I have to prove it. Someone claiming there is a god would have the same need to prove their claim to someone who disputes it. Why, with religion, does this not hold?
Millions of children believe in Santa Claus. Because of the weird-ass traditions of their parents, millions of children believe the magical Santa Claus is a real person. They've been told so, and they have faith.
Nope. I say I have super powers, badass super powers, but I don't show them off and it's wrong to even ask me to. Now verify that I don't.
this doesn't really make sense.
god isn't in front of me telling me he has super powers and refusing to show them off.
That makes it even worse, you don't even have the story from first person! You read a book that was written by a guy who's father claimed that his ancestors knew a guy who has all super powers, and he can hear you but he won't reveal himself or show them.
Absurd!
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,719
This thread. like all other similar to it can also use a little of this:
Nope. I say I have super powers, badass super powers, but I don't show them off and it's wrong to even ask me to. Now verify that I don't.
this doesn't really make sense.
god isn't in front of me telling me he has super powers and refusing to show them off.
That makes it even worse, you don't even have the story from first person! You read a book that was written by a guy who's father claimed that his ancestors knew a guy who has all super powers, and he can hear you but he won't reveal himself or show them.
Absurd!
now you are talking about religion. you can't segue between a discussion about the possibility of the existence of a higher power and religion as you see fit when it suits your argument to do so.
Nope. I say I have super powers, badass super powers, but I don't show them off and it's wrong to even ask me to. Now verify that I don't.
this doesn't really make sense.
god isn't in front of me telling me he has super powers and refusing to show them off.
That makes it even worse, you don't even have the story from first person! You read a book that was written by a guy who's father claimed that his ancestors knew a guy who has all super powers, and he can hear you but he won't reveal himself or show them.
Absurd!
now you are talking about religion. you can't segue between a discussion about the possibility of the existence of a higher power and religion as you see fit when it suits your argument to do so.
And you can't separate God from religion when it suits you. If you say the word "God" in English speaking parts of the world, nearly every single person will think of the same magical being.
the original comment you responded to initially wasn't referencing religion, just the topic of god itself, so yeah, it was already separated when you commented.
if you can't get past your own preconceived notions of what god is for the purpose of the discussion, that's your problem, not others discussing it.
Flight Risk out NOW!
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,625
edited January 2018
Burden of proof is on those swearing there is such a thing as a god. (And I am personally very happy for people who believe in God and get good things from it)
I also believe Satanists should be afforded the same rights as other religions.
the original comment you responded to initially wasn't referencing religion, just the topic of god itself, so yeah, it was already separated when you commented.
if you can't get past your own preconceived notions of what god is for the purpose of the discussion, that's your problem, not others discussing it.
If you could get past your desire to separate the two so that you can ride the fence, you would accept that the discussion began with a commentary on Yahweh/Jehovah and the Bible, and proceeded in like fashion, because that's how things go in North America. It doesn't matter anyways because ot was an analogy and the point stands. The fact that it's an invisible man in the sky doesn't change the fact that the burden of proof lies on the claimant. If super powers are claimed, they are not credible unless proven. If they are unproven and someone decides to have faith in those super powers, their sanity is in question.
To me, there is no difference between Aesop's Fables, Grimms' Fairy Tales, Greek mythology, Norse mythology, Biblical fairy tales, Quranic fairy tales, Talmudic fairy tales , etc... They are all man-made stories to: a) try to explain what isn't always understandable; and 2) control peoples' behavior. Most of them rely on some form of god(s) as punisher and/or helper. Any notion of what "god" is, or "a higher power" is, has origins in the limits of human understanding -- the need to make up gods and/or religions to help fill the void. I have a hard time separating god and religion because I believe those notions come from the same place - fear of the unknown and/or the need to be able to explain our place in the big picture.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
Well I have honestly never met an Atheist in my whole life who asks a religious person about their faith to their face and then turned around and mocked and ridiculed them, so I'm not sure where in the hell that fear comes from. I rather think it's imagined, or at least majorly exaggerated in their heads because they think something they see on the internet has way more weight than it really does. I personally think this "my religion is under siege" idea is pure delusion (unless you're a Muslim in America, that is). What they're actually experiencing is the power of Christianity and that establishment shinking. They are the religious equivalent of those white men who are freaking out because they are losing power in modern society.
Oh, and no, I'm not agnostic in any way, shape or form. I am definitely 100% Atheist, and I don't care who that bothers. I don't think the view you're expressing is logical. As I've said before, I know God doesn't exist the same way I know a giant polk-a-dotted, cottonball breathing dragon doesn't exist. I think that saying there is no way to know that god doesn't exist is a logical absurdity. Doesn't matter to me if others don't agree with my viewpoint. I hold it unwaveringly. And no, that is not equal to the other side of the coin.
a logical absurdity to me is thinking you know all of the secrets of the universe from your porch in vancouver.
i think saying you 'know' there is no higher power is just as ridiculous as someone saying they 'know' there is.
I don't think I know all the secrets of the universe, Mr. Sarcasm. I just know that just because something is made up by people I have no obligation to humour the idea, and I also think that to say believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people and not believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people are the same thing is extremely messed up logic. It makes no sense to act like the two are comparable.
i am not talking about religion. that is man made. the idea that everything has a creator is not. it is logic.
The concept of God - i.e. a creator - is also man made.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".
I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.
this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above.
the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist. there aren't any that we know of at this point.
in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.
Well I have honestly never met an Atheist in my whole life who asks a religious person about their faith to their face and then turned around and mocked and ridiculed them, so I'm not sure where in the hell that fear comes from. I rather think it's imagined, or at least majorly exaggerated in their heads because they think something they see on the internet has way more weight than it really does. I personally think this "my religion is under siege" idea is pure delusion (unless you're a Muslim in America, that is). What they're actually experiencing is the power of Christianity and that establishment shinking. They are the religious equivalent of those white men who are freaking out because they are losing power in modern society.
Oh, and no, I'm not agnostic in any way, shape or form. I am definitely 100% Atheist, and I don't care who that bothers. I don't think the view you're expressing is logical. As I've said before, I know God doesn't exist the same way I know a giant polk-a-dotted, cottonball breathing dragon doesn't exist. I think that saying there is no way to know that god doesn't exist is a logical absurdity. Doesn't matter to me if others don't agree with my viewpoint. I hold it unwaveringly. And no, that is not equal to the other side of the coin.
a logical absurdity to me is thinking you know all of the secrets of the universe from your porch in vancouver.
i think saying you 'know' there is no higher power is just as ridiculous as someone saying they 'know' there is.
I don't think I know all the secrets of the universe, Mr. Sarcasm. I just know that just because something is made up by people I have no obligation to humour the idea, and I also think that to say believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people and not believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people are the same thing is extremely messed up logic. It makes no sense to act like the two are comparable.
i am not talking about religion. that is man made. the idea that everything has a creator is not. it is logic.
The concept of God - i.e. a creator - is also man made.
no, it's simple logic. everything that is made has to have a creator, whether it's some god, or an energy, or something.
the original comment you responded to initially wasn't referencing religion, just the topic of god itself, so yeah, it was already separated when you commented.
if you can't get past your own preconceived notions of what god is for the purpose of the discussion, that's your problem, not others discussing it.
If you could get past your desire to separate the two so that you can ride the fence, you would accept that the discussion began with a commentary on Yahweh/Jehovah and the Bible, and proceeded in like fashion, because that's how things go in North America. It doesn't matter anyways because ot was an analogy and the point stands. The fact that it's an invisible man in the sky doesn't change the fact that the burden of proof lies on the claimant. If super powers are claimed, they are not credible unless proven. If they are unproven and someone decides to have faith in those super powers, their sanity is in question.
i don't have a 'desire' to separate the two. how the fuck am i riding any fence? not sure what your big issue is here. other than an innate desire to be fucking right all the time, from what i can see.
'that's how things go in north america'. i don't even know what the fuck that's supposed to mean.
the point doesn't stand just because you say it does. that's not how a discussion works.
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I don't get weird looks, but I don't live in the bible belt. It's another reason the USA is so backwards (In many areas).
Another good Gervais.
… If you took every holy book, every
holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of
spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them… then you took every
science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years’ time, those science books would be back exactly the same, because the tests would always turn out the same.
Those religious books would either never exist or they’d be totally different
Wow genius....describing the difference between science and faith...who knew.
I don't get weird looks, but I don't live in the bible belt. It's another reason the USA is so backwards (In many areas).
Another good Gervais.
… If you took every holy book, every
holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of
spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them… then you took every
science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years’ time, those science books would be back exactly the same, because the tests would always turn out the same.
Those religious books would either never exist or they’d be totally different
Wow genius....describing the difference between science and faith...who knew.
Who knew? Not religious people.
Take a look at a science text from just 20 years ago, very different. From 50 years ago wont even be close to the same thing. So to say that in 1000 years science books would be exactly the same isnt accurate. Now it is true science won;t change in 1000 years, but our understanding of it definitely will. They'll probably look back and laugh at the idea of what we thought an atom was, just like we laugh at what scientists 100 years ago thought an atom was.
Well....yeah. As we learn more it grows. Knowledge is king
the original comment you responded to initially wasn't referencing religion, just the topic of god itself, so yeah, it was already separated when you commented.
if you can't get past your own preconceived notions of what god is for the purpose of the discussion, that's your problem, not others discussing it.
If you could get past your desire to separate the two so that you can ride the fence, you would accept that the discussion began with a commentary on Yahweh/Jehovah and the Bible, and proceeded in like fashion, because that's how things go in North America. It doesn't matter anyways because ot was an analogy and the point stands. The fact that it's an invisible man in the sky doesn't change the fact that the burden of proof lies on the claimant. If super powers are claimed, they are not credible unless proven. If they are unproven and someone decides to have faith in those super powers, their sanity is in question.
i don't have a 'desire' to separate the two. how the fuck am i riding any fence? not sure what your big issue is here. other than an innate desire to be fucking right all the time, from what i can see.
'that's how things go in north america'. i don't even know what the fuck that's supposed to mean.
the point doesn't stand just because you say it does. that's not how a discussion works.
We already went around on this in your thread. I don't have any big issues, but you seem to be testy lately, hope all is well in Hugh's world.
At least 90% of the conversation about God in North America is centered on the Judeo-Christian God as described by the Bible, that's what it means. If someone wants to talk about a different God, or a different concept of God, they usually preface it to prevent the inevitable assumption that Yahweh Jehovah Jesus is the subject.
My point does stand, as it's a pretty standard rule where the burden of proof lies. The point I was making is that faith in supernatural without evidence is considered "insane" in nearly every case, except in cases where millions of people believe anyways. Ghosts, Gods, Santa, etc they all have their believers, but they all lack evidence and no matter how many people adhere to faith in them, that faith is no more credible.
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R'amen.
Those are two different things. Men have taken credit for stories of Santa. Man has not taken credit for many of the world's religions. Most religions are said to be birthed from God through prophets and other means.
Even if you don't believe in God, there is still a difference between a story that the authors claim to be fake, and another story where the authors claim to be messengers of God or first hand witnesses of the accounts. I just don't see it as evidence religion is fake that some have claimed here.
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If I say I have super powers you say "you are insane, unless you can prove it".
If I say there's an invisible man floating above me and HE has super powers, do you say "well I don't know, I can't prove him wrong so he might be sane." ?
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In this case claiming I have super powers I have to prove it. Someone claiming there is a god would have the same need to prove their claim to someone who disputes it. Why, with religion, does this not hold?
I say I have super powers, badass super powers, but I don't show them off and it's wrong to even ask me to.
Now verify that I don't.
Because of the weird-ass traditions of their parents, millions of children believe the magical Santa Claus is a real person.
They've been told so, and they have faith.
god isn't in front of me telling me he has super powers and refusing to show them off.
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You read a book that was written by a guy who's father claimed that his ancestors knew a guy who has all super powers, and he can hear you but he won't reveal himself or show them.
Absurd!
Isn't that exactly what the Bible asks you to have faith in?
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If you say the word "God" in English speaking parts of the world, nearly every single person will think of the same magical being.
if you can't get past your own preconceived notions of what god is for the purpose of the discussion, that's your problem, not others discussing it.
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(And I am personally very happy for people who believe in God and get good things from it)
I also believe Satanists should be afforded the same rights as other religions.
It doesn't matter anyways because ot was an analogy and the point stands.
The fact that it's an invisible man in the sky doesn't change the fact that the burden of proof lies on the claimant.
If super powers are claimed, they are not credible unless proven. If they are unproven and someone decides to have faith in those super powers, their sanity is in question.
The concept of God - i.e. a creator - is also man made.
www.headstonesband.com
'that's how things go in north america'. i don't even know what the fuck that's supposed to mean.
the point doesn't stand just because you say it does. that's not how a discussion works.
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
At least 90% of the conversation about God in North America is centered on the Judeo-Christian God as described by the Bible, that's what it means. If someone wants to talk about a different God, or a different concept of God, they usually preface it to prevent the inevitable assumption that Yahweh Jehovah Jesus is the subject.
My point does stand, as it's a pretty standard rule where the burden of proof lies.
The point I was making is that faith in supernatural without evidence is considered "insane" in nearly every case, except in cases where millions of people believe anyways. Ghosts, Gods, Santa, etc they all have their believers, but they all lack evidence and no matter how many people adhere to faith in them, that faith is no more credible.