I don't believe in God

F Me In The Brain

Typically the person making a claim is the holder of the burden of proof, right?
In this case claiming I have super powers I have to prove it.  Someone claiming there is a god would have the same need to prove their claim to someone who disputes it.  Why, with religion, does this not hold?

rgambs

HughFreakingDillon said:

one is verifiable. the other is not. 

Nope.
I say I have super powers, badass super powers, but I don't show them off and it's wrong to even ask me to.
Now verify that I don't.

rgambs

Millions of children believe in Santa Claus. 
Because of the weird-ass traditions of their parents, millions of children believe the magical Santa Claus is a real person.
They've been told so, and they have faith.  

HughFreakingDillon

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

one is verifiable. the other is not. 

Nope.
I say I have super powers, badass super powers, but I don't show them off and it's wrong to even ask me to.
Now verify that I don't.

this doesn't really make sense. 

god isn't in front of me telling me he has super powers and refusing to show them off.  

rgambs

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

one is verifiable. the other is not. 

Nope.
I say I have super powers, badass super powers, but I don't show them off and it's wrong to even ask me to.
Now verify that I don't.

this doesn't really make sense. 

god isn't in front of me telling me he has super powers and refusing to show them off.  

That makes it even worse, you don't even have the story from first person! 
You read a book that was written by a guy who's father claimed that his ancestors knew a guy who has all super powers, and he can hear you but he won't reveal himself or show them.

Absurd!

brianlux

This thread. like all other similar to it can also use a little of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_LF9NFKPlo

rgambs

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

one is verifiable. the other is not. 

Nope.
I say I have super powers, badass super powers, but I don't show them off and it's wrong to even ask me to.
Now verify that I don't.

this doesn't really make sense. 

god isn't in front of me telling me he has super powers and refusing to show them off.  

Isn't he though?
Isn't that exactly what the Bible asks you to have faith in?

HughFreakingDillon

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

one is verifiable. the other is not. 

Nope.
I say I have super powers, badass super powers, but I don't show them off and it's wrong to even ask me to.
Now verify that I don't.

this doesn't really make sense. 

god isn't in front of me telling me he has super powers and refusing to show them off.  

That makes it even worse, you don't even have the story from first person! 
You read a book that was written by a guy who's father claimed that his ancestors knew a guy who has all super powers, and he can hear you but he won't reveal himself or show them.

Absurd!

now you are talking about religion. you can't segue between a discussion about the possibility of the existence of a higher power and religion as you see fit when it suits your argument to do so. 

rgambs

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

one is verifiable. the other is not. 

Nope.
I say I have super powers, badass super powers, but I don't show them off and it's wrong to even ask me to.
Now verify that I don't.

this doesn't really make sense. 

god isn't in front of me telling me he has super powers and refusing to show them off.  

That makes it even worse, you don't even have the story from first person! 
You read a book that was written by a guy who's father claimed that his ancestors knew a guy who has all super powers, and he can hear you but he won't reveal himself or show them.

Absurd!

now you are talking about religion. you can't segue between a discussion about the possibility of the existence of a higher power and religion as you see fit when it suits your argument to do so. 

And you can't separate God from religion when it suits you.
If you say the word "God" in English speaking parts of the world, nearly every single person will think of the same magical being.

HughFreakingDillon

the original comment you responded to initially wasn't referencing religion, just the topic of god itself, so yeah, it was already separated when you commented. 

if you can't get past your own preconceived notions of what god is for the purpose of the discussion, that's your problem, not others discussing it. 

F Me In The Brain

Burden of proof is on those swearing there is such a thing as a god.
(And I am personally very happy for people who believe in God and get good things from it)

I also believe Satanists should be afforded the same rights as other religions.

rgambs

HughFreakingDillon said:

the original comment you responded to initially wasn't referencing religion, just the topic of god itself, so yeah, it was already separated when you commented. 

if you can't get past your own preconceived notions of what god is for the purpose of the discussion, that's your problem, not others discussing it. 

If you could get past your desire to separate the two so that you can ride the fence, you would accept that the discussion began with a commentary on Yahweh/Jehovah and the Bible, and proceeded in like fashion, because that's how things go in North America.
It doesn't matter anyways because ot was an analogy and the point stands.
The fact that it's an invisible man in the sky doesn't change the fact that the burden of proof lies on the claimant.
If super powers are claimed, they are not credible unless proven.  If they are unproven and someone decides to have faith in those super powers, their sanity is in question.

jeffbr

To me, there is no difference between Aesop's Fables, Grimms' Fairy Tales, Greek mythology, Norse mythology, Biblical fairy tales, Quranic fairy tales, Talmudic fairy tales , etc... They are all man-made stories to: a) try to explain what isn't always understandable; and 2) control peoples' behavior.  Most of them rely on some form of god(s) as punisher and/or helper. Any notion of what "god" is, or "a higher power" is, has origins in the limits of human understanding -- the need to make up gods and/or religions to help fill the void. I have a hard time separating god and religion because I believe those notions come from the same place - fear of the unknown and/or the need to be able to explain our place in the big picture.

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".

I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.

this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above. 

the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist.  there aren't any that we know of at this point. 

in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.

Well I have honestly never met an Atheist in my whole life who asks a religious person about their faith to their face and then turned around and mocked and ridiculed them, so I'm not sure where in the hell that fear comes from. I rather think it's imagined, or at least majorly exaggerated in their heads because they think something they see on the internet has way more weight than it really does. I personally think this "my religion is under siege" idea is pure delusion (unless you're a Muslim in America, that is). What they're actually experiencing is the power of Christianity and that establishment shinking. They are the religious equivalent of those white men who are freaking out because they are losing power in modern society.

Oh, and no, I'm not agnostic in any way, shape or form. I am definitely 100% Atheist, and I don't care who that bothers. I don't think the view you're expressing is logical. As I've said before, I know God doesn't exist the same way I know a giant polk-a-dotted, cottonball breathing dragon doesn't exist. I think that saying there is no way to know that god doesn't exist is a logical absurdity. Doesn't matter to me if others don't agree with my viewpoint. I hold it unwaveringly. And no, that is not equal to the other side of the coin.

a logical absurdity to me is thinking you know all of the secrets of the universe from your porch in vancouver. 

i think saying you 'know' there is no higher power is just as ridiculous as someone saying they 'know' there is. 

I don't think I know all the secrets of the universe, Mr. Sarcasm. I just know that just because something is made up by people I have no obligation to humour the idea, and I also think that to say believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people and not believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people are the same thing is extremely messed up logic. It makes no sense to act like the two are comparable.

i am not talking about religion. that is man made. the idea that everything has a creator is not. it is logic. 

The concept of God - i.e. a creator - is also man made.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Normalized as in "believing in the tooth fairy isn't normal and believing in God is".

I personally have absolutely no qualms in saying I'm an Atheist is any and all situations, because I couldn't care less what other people think about it. Also, I'm always extremely intrigued when I discover that someone is a devout whatever. When I find out a co-worker or someone actually attends Church and is really religious, I'm genuinely fascinated, and want nothing more than to discuss their beliefs and their experiences with that. I find that most very religious people are weirdly closed-lipped and self-conscious of their faith, while I've never met an Atheist who is.... And these are not faithful people who get persecuted or teased or anything about their religion at all. So that makes me wonder wtf they're so uncomfortable about. Perhaps they are insecure about it because deep down they know that a lot of it is pretty ludicrous, or maybe are afraid a non-religious person is going to be able to easily poke holes in the beliefs (I wouldn't do that in this scenario)... That makes me wonder if their faith is as solid as they seem to want it to be. Either that, or they are basically just a bunch of snobs who don't think an Atheist is worth sharing with. And no, I don't do anything to make them feel weird or judged. I show genuine, friendly interest and curiosity about it. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives about it, especially when they're converts from other faiths or something. I dunno... lately I feel like a lot of religious folks, particularly Christians, have a persecution complex that acts like a kind of defense mechanism.

this is because many atheists who act 'intrigued' at someone's beliefs are really only after one thing: mockery and superiority. i am at the same point as you, where i am genuinely interested in someone's beliefs, and my brother understands that i'm asking out of curiosity, not as a reason to mock him. but he honestly feels like his religion is under siege, and i can't say that in some ways i blame that thought. now, he is more talking in the context of being called a bigot for his beliefs, but in a more general sense, a lot of atheists mock theists using slights like the flying spaghetti monster, santa claus, easter bunny, etc, as seen above. 

the difference is, we all know santa et al aren't real. we KNOW that. we don't know how we were created, and by what/whom. so it's pretty arrogant, to me, to tell people, no matter your beliefs, what is fact. it bothers me when theists tell me for a fact they know god exists, and it also bothers me when atheists tell me for a fact a god doesn't exist.  there aren't any that we know of at this point. 

in my opinion, we are all agnostic, just most of us don't know it.

Well I have honestly never met an Atheist in my whole life who asks a religious person about their faith to their face and then turned around and mocked and ridiculed them, so I'm not sure where in the hell that fear comes from. I rather think it's imagined, or at least majorly exaggerated in their heads because they think something they see on the internet has way more weight than it really does. I personally think this "my religion is under siege" idea is pure delusion (unless you're a Muslim in America, that is). What they're actually experiencing is the power of Christianity and that establishment shinking. They are the religious equivalent of those white men who are freaking out because they are losing power in modern society.

Oh, and no, I'm not agnostic in any way, shape or form. I am definitely 100% Atheist, and I don't care who that bothers. I don't think the view you're expressing is logical. As I've said before, I know God doesn't exist the same way I know a giant polk-a-dotted, cottonball breathing dragon doesn't exist. I think that saying there is no way to know that god doesn't exist is a logical absurdity. Doesn't matter to me if others don't agree with my viewpoint. I hold it unwaveringly. And no, that is not equal to the other side of the coin.

a logical absurdity to me is thinking you know all of the secrets of the universe from your porch in vancouver. 

i think saying you 'know' there is no higher power is just as ridiculous as someone saying they 'know' there is. 

I don't think I know all the secrets of the universe, Mr. Sarcasm. I just know that just because something is made up by people I have no obligation to humour the idea, and I also think that to say believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people and not believing in the existence of something ludicrous conjured up by people are the same thing is extremely messed up logic. It makes no sense to act like the two are comparable.

i am not talking about religion. that is man made. the idea that everything has a creator is not. it is logic. 

The concept of God - i.e. a creator - is also man made.

no, it's simple logic. everything that is made has to have a creator, whether it's some god, or an energy, or something. 

HughFreakingDillon

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

the original comment you responded to initially wasn't referencing religion, just the topic of god itself, so yeah, it was already separated when you commented. 

if you can't get past your own preconceived notions of what god is for the purpose of the discussion, that's your problem, not others discussing it. 

If you could get past your desire to separate the two so that you can ride the fence, you would accept that the discussion began with a commentary on Yahweh/Jehovah and the Bible, and proceeded in like fashion, because that's how things go in North America.
It doesn't matter anyways because ot was an analogy and the point stands.
The fact that it's an invisible man in the sky doesn't change the fact that the burden of proof lies on the claimant.
If super powers are claimed, they are not credible unless proven.  If they are unproven and someone decides to have faith in those super powers, their sanity is in question.

i don't have a 'desire' to separate the two. how the fuck am i riding any fence? not sure what your big issue is here. other than an innate desire to be fucking right all the time, from what i can see. 

'that's how things go in north america'. i don't even know what the fuck that's supposed to mean. 

the point doesn't stand just because you say it does. that's not how a discussion works. 

F Me In The Brain

Isn't that what you are doing?  

HughFreakingDillon

F Me In The Brain said:

Isn't that what you are doing?  

nope. i say i don't know. others say they know all. not sure how you equate the two. 

Smellyman

mace1229 said:

Smellyman said:

cincybearcat said:

Smellyman said:

I don't get weird looks, but I don't live in the bible belt.   It's another reason the USA is so backwards (In many areas).


Another good Gervais.

… If you took every holy book, every holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them… then you took every science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years’ time, those science books would be back exactly the same, because the tests would always turn out the same.

Those religious books would either never exist or they’d be totally different

Wow genius....describing the difference between science and faith...who knew.

cincybearcat said:

Smellyman said:

I don't get weird looks, but I don't live in the bible belt.   It's another reason the USA is so backwards (In many areas).


Another good Gervais.

… If you took every holy book, every holy book there’s ever been, every religious book, every bit of spirituality, and hid them or destroyed them… then you took every science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years’ time, those science books would be back exactly the same, because the tests would always turn out the same.

Those religious books would either never exist or they’d be totally different

Wow genius....describing the difference between science and faith...who knew.

Who knew?  Not religious people.

Take a look at a science text from just 20 years ago, very different.
From 50 years ago wont even be close to the same thing.
So to say that in 1000 years science books would be exactly the same isnt accurate.
Now it is true science won;t change in 1000 years, but our understanding of it definitely will. They'll probably look back and laugh at the idea of what we thought an atom was, just like we laugh at what scientists 100 years ago thought an atom was.

Well....yeah.  As we learn more it grows.  Knowledge is king

rgambs

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

the original comment you responded to initially wasn't referencing religion, just the topic of god itself, so yeah, it was already separated when you commented. 

if you can't get past your own preconceived notions of what god is for the purpose of the discussion, that's your problem, not others discussing it. 

If you could get past your desire to separate the two so that you can ride the fence, you would accept that the discussion began with a commentary on Yahweh/Jehovah and the Bible, and proceeded in like fashion, because that's how things go in North America.
It doesn't matter anyways because ot was an analogy and the point stands.
The fact that it's an invisible man in the sky doesn't change the fact that the burden of proof lies on the claimant.
If super powers are claimed, they are not credible unless proven.  If they are unproven and someone decides to have faith in those super powers, their sanity is in question.

i don't have a 'desire' to separate the two. how the fuck am i riding any fence? not sure what your big issue is here. other than an innate desire to be fucking right all the time, from what i can see. 

'that's how things go in north america'. i don't even know what the fuck that's supposed to mean. 

the point doesn't stand just because you say it does. that's not how a discussion works. 

We already went around on this in your thread.  I don't have any big issues, but you seem to be testy lately, hope all is well in Hugh's world.

At least 90% of the conversation about God in North America is centered on the Judeo-Christian God as described by the Bible, that's what it means.  If someone wants to talk about a different God, or a different concept of God, they usually preface it to prevent the inevitable assumption that Yahweh Jehovah Jesus is the subject.

My point does stand, as it's a pretty standard rule where the burden of proof lies. 
The point I was making is that faith in supernatural without evidence is considered "insane" in nearly every case, except in cases where millions of people believe anyways.  Ghosts, Gods, Santa, etc they all have their believers, but they all lack evidence and no matter how many people adhere to faith in them, that faith is no more credible.