I don't believe in God

F Me In The Brain

I am happy for people who live by the 'faith' -- I am just not one of those people.  I need to believe there is fact behind something...or I call it fiction.

mace1229

Gern Blansten said:

The free will argument is a cop out.  That is the argument you use when you are backed into a corner for believing in an invisible man.

Care to explain why?
If I felt backed into a corner, I probably just wouldnt log back into this thread instead of having a conversation with those who are curious. 

Gern Blansten

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

The free will argument is a cop out.  That is the argument you use when you are backed into a corner for believing in an invisible man.

Care to explain why?
If I felt backed into a corner, I probably just wouldnt log back into this thread instead of having a conversation with those who are curious. 

Because as long as you hang your hat on free will there is no reason to believe anything different.

I don't believe there is an invisible man that gives us free will any more than he gives apes or raccoons free will.

mace1229

rgambs said:

mace1229 said:

rgambs said:

tbergs said:

Gern Blansten said:

tbergs said:

Gern Blansten said:

Annafalk said:

Gern Blansten said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

rgambs said:

Annafalk said:

So a sincere question for non believers, if you could choose, would you want there to be a God or not?

Absolutely not, if that God operates in this reality.
Why would I want a wantonly malicious and supremely vain deity sitting in the sky like a child with a magnifier over an ant hill.
Why would anyone want to believe that there is an omnipotent being that sits back and watches the Holocaust unfold? 
Fuck that!

It often comes back to this question about how god can allow suffering. If we would say that there is no god, wouldn’t there still be suffering? It would probably still be suffering but there would be no one to turn to, no comfort to get.  I prefer believing in god  just because it feels better. 

I'm with Pj_Soul, if I believed there was a God who could stop children from starving and being raped, but chose not to for no good reason, I would hate that God for being such a dick.

Yeah that's where I'm at.

If god is all powerful and does nothing to end suffering then that isn't a god I'm interested in paying much attention to.

Believe me I hate that too, evil humans.

right....humans that are more powerful than god. 

But how could a God take away our every way of evil? We have free will. What would we even be able to do freely if a God intervened? I don't think it's so easy to say that if there is a God they are spiteful to allow suffering. If you take the God concept as truth, then you recognize that the ability to create and control are different pieces of the puzzle. I guess we shouldn't procreate because our children may be the next mass murderer. We know the risks, but do so anyway.

Excuse me....if you knew that god would immediately smite you if you fucked up, would you fuck up?

What does it mean to "fuck up"? Is it reserved for rapists and murderers or does swindling $1,000 qualify? Much like the criminal justice system, people often know there will be a consequence, but due to either emotion or lack there of, we do it anyway. I don't see that changing under any circumstances. Sure, it may have a slight impact, but to err is human. We are a flawed creation.

Just imagine if God actually clearly laid out the rules and punishments and then actually administered them?
God says, don't steal or you'll get Herpes.
You steal.  Boom, Herpes.


Sure seems like a no brainer system to me.

That system requires zero faith.
If everyone saw God immediate smite down anyone who did anything wrong of course we'd all be perfect. But there would be zero faith, and essentially have taken away or free will to choose to do good or evil through fear.

We see people get out in prison for breaking the law everyday and people still break the law.
Why does there need to be faith?  Why can't there be confidence?
The idea that free will must be unrestrained and unpunished is just another platitude devised to defend what obviously doesn't make sense.

Why must there be evil?  Can't there be discomfort and betrayal and all sorts of problems without the extremes?  I understand and agree with the concept that you can't appreciate good without bad, but come on, the Holocaust?  Can't there be an upward limit to suffering?  Yes.  There could.

I dont think the prison example is an equal comparison. People who get out of jail and still break the law almost always think they won;t get caught this time. The example of God striking people down there was no thinking you may get away with it. It wasn't my scenario, but that is what I gathered, if you do something bad God immediately strikes you down. Well, then of course you will always be good if there is no possibility of getting away with it. Most criminals wouldn;t steal if they knew 100% they could not get away with it.

I don;t know what the difference between faith and confidence is. I guess do you mean it is faith because I believe there is a God, but it isnt confident because I can;t prove it? I'm not sure.

I dont know why there must be evil. Some humans by nature are going to commit evil acts. There is good and evil and miles of gray area in between that includes betrayal and discomfort.

PJ_Soul

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

The free will argument is a cop out.  That is the argument you use when you are backed into a corner for believing in an invisible man.

Care to explain why?
If I felt backed into a corner, I probably just wouldnt log back into this thread instead of having a conversation with those who are curious. 

I thought he was talking about it in terms of the big picture, not in this thread. No? The free will argument isn't just happening in this thread. All of organized Christianity uses this argument to try and answer the very obvious problems with their faith. Christianity, and therefore all Christians, are backed into a corner when it comes to this issue.

mace1229

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

The free will argument is a cop out.  That is the argument you use when you are backed into a corner for believing in an invisible man.

Care to explain why?
If I felt backed into a corner, I probably just wouldnt log back into this thread instead of having a conversation with those who are curious. 

I thought he was talking about it in terms of the big picture, not in this thread. No? The free will argument isn't just happening in this thread. All of organized Christianity uses this argument to try and answer the very obvious problems with their faith. Christianity, and therefore all Christians, are backed into a corner when it comes to this issue.

I don;t see it that way. It seems like a very good explanation to me. What would be the point of a god to create life if only to control them? Life would be boring if I didn't have a choice in what I did, and I was controlled by my creator. It would be a world of robots.
Allowing us to live our lives, with all the good and bad that comes with it and live with the consequences doesn't seems like any glaringly obvious issues with the free will argument to me.
So lets assume tomorrow you wake up believing there is a God. What would make more sense to you, that he controls your life and prevents a world of suffering, or allows you to live and suffer together?

PJ_Soul

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

The free will argument is a cop out.  That is the argument you use when you are backed into a corner for believing in an invisible man.

Care to explain why?
If I felt backed into a corner, I probably just wouldnt log back into this thread instead of having a conversation with those who are curious. 

I thought he was talking about it in terms of the big picture, not in this thread. No? The free will argument isn't just happening in this thread. All of organized Christianity uses this argument to try and answer the very obvious problems with their faith. Christianity, and therefore all Christians, are backed into a corner when it comes to this issue.

I don;t see it that way. It seems like a very good explanation to me. What would be the point of a god to create life if only to control them? Life would be boring if I didn't have a choice in what I did, and I was controlled by my creator. It would be a world of robots.
Allowing us to live our lives, with all the good and bad that comes with it and live with the consequences doesn't seems like any glaringly obvious issues with the free will argument to me.
So lets assume tomorrow you wake up believing there is a God. What would make more sense to you, that he controls your life and prevents a world of suffering, or allows you to live and suffer together?

Stopping suffering when possible isn't about controlling them. God could zap that knife out of the rapist's hands and hit him on the head with a bolt of lightening if he wanted. Saving the victims is what's important, not controlling the bad people. But oh yeah! God can't do anything like that because he won't fucking reveal that he exists to anyone!

rgambs

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

The free will argument is a cop out.  That is the argument you use when you are backed into a corner for believing in an invisible man.

Care to explain why?
If I felt backed into a corner, I probably just wouldnt log back into this thread instead of having a conversation with those who are curious. 

I thought he was talking about it in terms of the big picture, not in this thread. No? The free will argument isn't just happening in this thread. All of organized Christianity uses this argument to try and answer the very obvious problems with their faith. Christianity, and therefore all Christians, are backed into a corner when it comes to this issue.

I don;t see it that way. It seems like a very good explanation to me. What would be the point of a god to create life if only to control them? Life would be boring if I didn't have a choice in what I did, and I was controlled by my creator. It would be a world of robots.
Allowing us to live our lives, with all the good and bad that comes with it and live with the consequences doesn't seems like any glaringly obvious issues with the free will argument to me.
So lets assume tomorrow you wake up believing there is a God. What would make more sense to you, that he controls your life and prevents a world of suffering, or allows you to live and suffer together?

There is a ton of middle ground between total free will and robots.

Free will can exist within confines, it doesn't need to be complete.  There are a gazillion ways it could work and religion will only acknowledge the reason they think it can't.

Malroth

Church this morning!
warsaw.cc if you want to check it out.
Feel free to rip us a new one.

gimmesometruth27

i am a man of science. belief in god and belief in science cannot co-exist in my brain. 

mcgruff10

gimmesometruth27 said:

i am a man of science. belief in god and belief in science cannot co-exist in my brain. 

I am catholic and absolutely believe in science.  I look at myself as a very liberal catholic, meaning I am pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, women should be way more involved with the church, priests and nuns should marry, the bible is a book of stories and not fact, etc.  So both science and god co-exist in my head rather nicely.

gimmesometruth27

mcgruff10 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

i am a man of science. belief in god and belief in science cannot co-exist in my brain. 

I am catholic and absolutely believe in science.  I look at myself as a very liberal catholic, meaning I am pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, women should be way more involved with the church, priests and nuns should marry, the bible is a book of stories and not fact, etc.  So both science and god co-exist in my head rather nicely.

until this pope your views would get you excommunicated. this is why i quit being catholic when i was 16. a book of stories? really? so what about Catholicism to you believe?

mcgruff10

gimmesometruth27 said:

mcgruff10 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

i am a man of science. belief in god and belief in science cannot co-exist in my brain. 

I am catholic and absolutely believe in science.  I look at myself as a very liberal catholic, meaning I am pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, women should be way more involved with the church, priests and nuns should marry, the bible is a book of stories and not fact, etc.  So both science and god co-exist in my head rather nicely.

until this pope your views would get you excommunicated. this is why i quit being catholic when i was 16. a book of stories? really? so what about Catholicism to you believe?

I'm already excommunicated since I divorced, remarried outside the catholic church and had another child lol.  I believe in heaven and hell, the holy trinity, god, satan, and jesus died for our sins (I guess the basics).  and yeah some of the bible is stories in my mind (noah and the ark for instance).

rgambs

mcgruff10 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

i am a man of science. belief in god and belief in science cannot co-exist in my brain. 

I am catholic and absolutely believe in science.  I look at myself as a very liberal catholic, meaning I am pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, women should be way more involved with the church, priests and nuns should marry, the bible is a book of stories and not fact, etc.  So both science and god co-exist in my head rather nicely.

Haha you aren't Catholic.
You are free to call yourself Catholic, but those are not Catholic views.

How can you believe in normal stuff and then still go attend the cult-like services they offer?

mcgruff10

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

i am a man of science. belief in god and belief in science cannot co-exist in my brain. 

I am catholic and absolutely believe in science.  I look at myself as a very liberal catholic, meaning I am pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, women should be way more involved with the church, priests and nuns should marry, the bible is a book of stories and not fact, etc.  So both science and god co-exist in my head rather nicely.

Haha you aren't Catholic.
You are free to call yourself Catholic, but those are not Catholic views.

How can you believe in normal stuff and then still go attend the cult-like services they offer?

and they totally aren't catholic views.  I guess I'm just straight up christian.  Honestly I don't go to church.  I say prayers at night and try to be a good person.  To me you don't have to go to church to be a good catholic.  Yeah I' m way not catholic bud lol.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Church of the Scruffy lol

Whatever gets you through your day, buddy.

One of my oldest friends and I periodically debate religion. He's similar to you, but still feels he's Catholic in the classical sense. When we are done debating... everything is back to what it was.

I don't have a problem with religion provided one's beliefs do not impact others around them. So... in other words... if you believe and say prayers at night because that completes you... while living a good life where you are a positive member of society... then all is good.

But there is no God though.

mcgruff10

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Church of the Scruffy lol

Whatever gets you through your day, buddy.

One of my oldest friends and I periodically debate religion. He's similar to you, but still feels he's Catholic in the classical sense. When we are done debating... everything is back to what it was.

I don't have a problem with religion provided one's beliefs do not impact others around them. So... in other words... if you believe and say prayers at night because that completes you... while living a good life where you are a positive member of society... then all is good.

But there is no God though.

we shall debate while drinking IPA's!  That way no one loses.  

rgambs

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

i am a man of science. belief in god and belief in science cannot co-exist in my brain. 

I am catholic and absolutely believe in science.  I look at myself as a very liberal catholic, meaning I am pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, women should be way more involved with the church, priests and nuns should marry, the bible is a book of stories and not fact, etc.  So both science and god co-exist in my head rather nicely.

Haha you aren't Catholic.
You are free to call yourself Catholic, but those are not Catholic views.

How can you believe in normal stuff and then still go attend the cult-like services they offer?

and they totally aren't catholic views.  I guess I'm just straight up christian.  Honestly I don't go to church.  I say prayers at night and try to be a good person.  To me you don't have to go to church to be a good catholic.  Yeah I' m way not catholic bud lol.

Haha my in-laws talk about "half-assed Catholics" but I don't think you can even meet those criteria.
Good for you! lol

Thirty Bills Unpaid

mcgruff10 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Church of the Scruffy lol

Whatever gets you through your day, buddy.

One of my oldest friends and I periodically debate religion. He's similar to you, but still feels he's Catholic in the classical sense. When we are done debating... everything is back to what it was.

I don't have a problem with religion provided one's beliefs do not impact others around them. So... in other words... if you believe and say prayers at night because that completes you... while living a good life where you are a positive member of society... then all is good.

But there is no God though.

we shall debate while drinking IPA's!  That way no one loses.  

Hey...

We've already been through this. You are a little light weight American beer drinker. That stuff passes for water up here in the great white north. Our waiters and waitresses ask customers if they would like regular water or beer flavoured water from the US (which is typically Budweiser, Miller, Coors or another mainstream US beer).

You might need 3-4 years to acclimatize. It might be best for me to come south. That way... I could pretend to be impressed with your IPAs and you could be two things:
1. Still on your feet.
2. Happy (I'd even let you rip off a few 'USA USA' chants).

mcgruff10

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mcgruff10 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Church of the Scruffy lol

Whatever gets you through your day, buddy.

One of my oldest friends and I periodically debate religion. He's similar to you, but still feels he's Catholic in the classical sense. When we are done debating... everything is back to what it was.

I don't have a problem with religion provided one's beliefs do not impact others around them. So... in other words... if you believe and say prayers at night because that completes you... while living a good life where you are a positive member of society... then all is good.

But there is no God though.

we shall debate while drinking IPA's!  That way no one loses.  

Hey...

We've already been through this. You are a little light weight American beer drinker. That stuff passes for water up here in the great white north. Our waiters and waitresses ask customers if they would like regular water or beer flavoured water from the US (which is typically Budweiser, Miller, Coors or another mainstream US beer).

You might need 3-4 years to acclimatize. It might be best for me to come south. That way... I could pretend to be impressed with your IPAs and you could be two things:
1. Still on your feet.
2. Happy (I'd even let you rip off a few 'USA USA' chants).

again, tough talk coming from the guy who drinks moosehead beer.