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benjs

dignin said:

benjs said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Woa! Woa! Woa! Because that's what I do. I print my name, I sign my name. And then when, I sing the pledge of allegiance. Because going to a wedding and entering a country are the same. Are you usually this misinformed? Or just hateful? Be honest.

Halifax, I mean this honestly: treating people who feel differently than you this poorly is not productive to showing them why they shouldn't. This goes for the Trump debates, but also any other topic in life, and there are a few prerequisites which without them, you're going to have a hard time changing minds

1. Don't attack character. If someone calls me a Nazi sympathizer and I'm not, that person's credibility is lost in my eyes, because I feel they fallaciously make conclusions.
2. Don't make a battle out of a debate. If both of your objectives are truth and not war, then exposed knowledge which adds to a pile of data on which to pass judgment can only be a positive. Don't let winning be the objective, it must be discovery of the truth.
3. Recognize the bias you have inherited, and that there is no shame in needing to consciously strip your opinions of the biases within you in order to reassess the truth of your opinions. It is not an attack to be reminded of bias.
4. Just be respectful. We're living things here.

I'm sorry if you find this preachy, but I've found these to be things absent by and large in this community. I've probably forgotten them from time to time too but am trying to be more cognizant of them.

I realize you are trying to help, and that's good but I don't think you have been paying attention. You are missing more than half of the equation.

I personally appreciate Halifax for calling out the bullshit when he sees it. I have learned a lot.

I'm all for calling out bullshit, but first you have to qualify whether the person you're talking to has malicious intent and is trying to dispel bullshit, or whether they believe what they are saying. If they believe it, they are simply stating their case the way you or I do. If this is the case, equating them to people of questionable character or intellect is just not called for. If they don't believe it, why not just present the ill logic their statements are predicated upon?

In either case, as soon as emotions come into play, you've given a valid opportunity to the person you're debating with to just deflect by accurately pointing out that you are resorting to fallacious attacks. In no way, shape or form have I proposed not calling out bullshit. I've simply said that there's a right way and a wrong way to do so.

vaggar99

good reading:
https://lawfareblog.com/malevolence-tempered-incompetence-trumps-horrifying-executive-order-refugees-and-visas

gimmesometruth27

happy trumpsters? i mean, all of this, all of it, is your fault.

we have a man who won votes from less than 30% of the population. he is defying the judicial branch. he has demoted the joint chiefs and military advisors and promoted bannon. he thinks he is king. none of this is good for our country.

this is YOUR FAULT.

vaggar99

gimmesometruth27 said:

happy trumpsters? i mean, all of this, all of it, is your fault.

we have a man who won votes from less than 30% of the population. he is defying the judicial branch. he has demoted the joint chiefs and military advisors and promoted bannon. he thinks he is king. none of this is good for our country.

this is YOUR FAULT.

oh now you've done it. trumpsters still are wondering when p grabbing will be fully legalized by decree.

vaggar99

gimme some fuckin truth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlOzRPWeRRk

Thirty Bills Unpaid

vaggar99 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

happy trumpsters? i mean, all of this, all of it, is your fault.

we have a man who won votes from less than 30% of the population. he is defying the judicial branch. he has demoted the joint chiefs and military advisors and promoted bannon. he thinks he is king. none of this is good for our country.

this is YOUR FAULT.

oh now you've done it. trumpsters still are wondering when p grabbing will be fully legalized by decree.

Interesting.

For the most part, I assumed many Trump voters were either moronic or lacking values. Yet here... you bring up another quality I had not previously considered: the horny variety.

If Clinton had been better looking, they likely would have voted for her and the US wouldn't have this mess on its hands right now.

ledvedderman

So here's where I assume many people are viewing the difference between what Obama proposed and what Trump signed the other day. I don't like that Obama even went as far as he did, but I honestly don't think people saw it going past a temporary situation. With Trump, who says it is temporary, the fear is that (shockingly) he's full of shit and that this EO will be extended time and time again and lead to the next logical progression- a Muslim registry in the US.

When you run a campaign playing on the public's fear, win that campaign and then start implementing your campaign promises- don't be surprised when people freak out and assume the worst in you.

dignin

benjs said:

dignin said:

benjs said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Woa! Woa! Woa! Because that's what I do. I print my name, I sign my name. And then when, I sing the pledge of allegiance. Because going to a wedding and entering a country are the same. Are you usually this misinformed? Or just hateful? Be honest.

Halifax, I mean this honestly: treating people who feel differently than you this poorly is not productive to showing them why they shouldn't. This goes for the Trump debates, but also any other topic in life, and there are a few prerequisites which without them, you're going to have a hard time changing minds

1. Don't attack character. If someone calls me a Nazi sympathizer and I'm not, that person's credibility is lost in my eyes, because I feel they fallaciously make conclusions.
2. Don't make a battle out of a debate. If both of your objectives are truth and not war, then exposed knowledge which adds to a pile of data on which to pass judgment can only be a positive. Don't let winning be the objective, it must be discovery of the truth.
3. Recognize the bias you have inherited, and that there is no shame in needing to consciously strip your opinions of the biases within you in order to reassess the truth of your opinions. It is not an attack to be reminded of bias.
4. Just be respectful. We're living things here.

I'm sorry if you find this preachy, but I've found these to be things absent by and large in this community. I've probably forgotten them from time to time too but am trying to be more cognizant of them.

I realize you are trying to help, and that's good but I don't think you have been paying attention. You are missing more than half of the equation.

I personally appreciate Halifax for calling out the bullshit when he sees it. I have learned a lot.

I'm all for calling out bullshit, but first you have to qualify whether the person you're talking to has malicious intent and is trying to dispel bullshit, or whether they believe what they are saying. If they believe it, they are simply stating their case the way you or I do. If this is the case, equating them to people of questionable character or intellect is just not called for. If they don't believe it, why not just present the ill logic their statements are predicated upon?

In either case, as soon as emotions come into play, you've given a valid opportunity to the person you're debating with to just deflect by accurately pointing out that you are resorting to fallacious attacks. In no way, shape or form have I proposed not calling out bullshit. I've simply said that there's a right way and a wrong way to do so.

I put in bold this part of your response because it gets to the heart of the matter.

The poster who Halifax was responding to clearly is trying to spread misinformation and just plain bullshit. Many on this forum have pointed it out. When called out said poster moves on to more bullshit. Always a moving target and always trying to confuse and muddy the waters. A tactic learned, I can only assume, from Trump himself.

I agree it would be best if we could leave most emotion out of it for a more clear picture and better debate, but then this place would be boring if it was all gone. It's the passion I see here, and the new information I learn, that keeps me coming back. Emotion and passion can lead to an invigorating debate.

PJfanwillneverleave1

Anyone remember this tweet a few years back about Kate Middleton?
Who wouldn't take Kate's picture and make lots of money if she does the nude sunbathing thing. Come on Kate!
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/a-worrying-tweet-donald-trump-wrote-about-kate-middleton-has-resurfaced/ar-AAmnmuu?li=AAggFp5&ocid=mailsignout

mfc2006

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Executive branch defying court orders.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/01/29/trump-s-border-patrol-defies-judge-u-s-senator-at-dulles-airport-at-his-first-constitutional-crisis-unfolds.html

what the flying fuck???

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Iraq is implementing reciprocal measures in response to US Muslim ban.

The downward spiral is picking up speed. Hasn't it only been a couple of weeks?

Yikes. Even the most ardent Trump supporters' spider senses should be tingling a touch.

And yes, PJFan. We know. He's only one man.

benjs

dignin said:

benjs said:

dignin said:

benjs said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Woa! Woa! Woa! Because that's what I do. I print my name, I sign my name. And then when, I sing the pledge of allegiance. Because going to a wedding and entering a country are the same. Are you usually this misinformed? Or just hateful? Be honest.

Halifax, I mean this honestly: treating people who feel differently than you this poorly is not productive to showing them why they shouldn't. This goes for the Trump debates, but also any other topic in life, and there are a few prerequisites which without them, you're going to have a hard time changing minds

1. Don't attack character. If someone calls me a Nazi sympathizer and I'm not, that person's credibility is lost in my eyes, because I feel they fallaciously make conclusions.
2. Don't make a battle out of a debate. If both of your objectives are truth and not war, then exposed knowledge which adds to a pile of data on which to pass judgment can only be a positive. Don't let winning be the objective, it must be discovery of the truth.
3. Recognize the bias you have inherited, and that there is no shame in needing to consciously strip your opinions of the biases within you in order to reassess the truth of your opinions. It is not an attack to be reminded of bias.
4. Just be respectful. We're living things here.

I'm sorry if you find this preachy, but I've found these to be things absent by and large in this community. I've probably forgotten them from time to time too but am trying to be more cognizant of them.

I realize you are trying to help, and that's good but I don't think you have been paying attention. You are missing more than half of the equation.

I personally appreciate Halifax for calling out the bullshit when he sees it. I have learned a lot.

I'm all for calling out bullshit, but first you have to qualify whether the person you're talking to has malicious intent and is trying to dispel bullshit, or whether they believe what they are saying. If they believe it, they are simply stating their case the way you or I do. If this is the case, equating them to people of questionable character or intellect is just not called for. If they don't believe it, why not just present the ill logic their statements are predicated upon?

In either case, as soon as emotions come into play, you've given a valid opportunity to the person you're debating with to just deflect by accurately pointing out that you are resorting to fallacious attacks. In no way, shape or form have I proposed not calling out bullshit. I've simply said that there's a right way and a wrong way to do so.

I put in bold this part of your response because it gets to the heart of the matter.

The poster who Halifax was responding to clearly is trying to spread misinformation and just plain bullshit. Many on this forum have pointed it out. When called out said poster moves on to more bullshit. Always a moving target and always trying to confuse and muddy the waters. A tactic learned, I can only assume, from Trump himself.

I agree it would be best if we could leave most emotion out of it for a more clear picture and better debate, but then this place would be boring if it was all gone. It's the passion I see here, and the new information I learn, that keeps me coming back. Emotion and passion can lead to an invigorating debate.

I really don't agree. I'm confident that BS believes what he writes here, and I say that as someone who disagrees with much of what he posts.

ledvedderman

Not even a couple of weeks. 9 days. 9 long, long days.

vaggar99

why can't they just go to school like the rest of us?
https://autostraddle.com/i-was-trained-for-the-culture-wars-in-home-school-awaiting-someone-like-mike-pence-as-a-messiah-367057/

tbergs

It seems we are aggrevating China as well. It's all preliminary right now, but give it another week before we are in a standoff over in the South China Sea. This would explain Trump's love affair with Russia and Putin. We'll need a border ally willing to be on board with our new world view.

#FuckTrump

dignin

benjs said:

dignin said:

benjs said:

dignin said:

benjs said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Woa! Woa! Woa! Because that's what I do. I print my name, I sign my name. And then when, I sing the pledge of allegiance. Because going to a wedding and entering a country are the same. Are you usually this misinformed? Or just hateful? Be honest.

Halifax, I mean this honestly: treating people who feel differently than you this poorly is not productive to showing them why they shouldn't. This goes for the Trump debates, but also any other topic in life, and there are a few prerequisites which without them, you're going to have a hard time changing minds

1. Don't attack character. If someone calls me a Nazi sympathizer and I'm not, that person's credibility is lost in my eyes, because I feel they fallaciously make conclusions.
2. Don't make a battle out of a debate. If both of your objectives are truth and not war, then exposed knowledge which adds to a pile of data on which to pass judgment can only be a positive. Don't let winning be the objective, it must be discovery of the truth.
3. Recognize the bias you have inherited, and that there is no shame in needing to consciously strip your opinions of the biases within you in order to reassess the truth of your opinions. It is not an attack to be reminded of bias.
4. Just be respectful. We're living things here.

I'm sorry if you find this preachy, but I've found these to be things absent by and large in this community. I've probably forgotten them from time to time too but am trying to be more cognizant of them.

I realize you are trying to help, and that's good but I don't think you have been paying attention. You are missing more than half of the equation.

I personally appreciate Halifax for calling out the bullshit when he sees it. I have learned a lot.

I'm all for calling out bullshit, but first you have to qualify whether the person you're talking to has malicious intent and is trying to dispel bullshit, or whether they believe what they are saying. If they believe it, they are simply stating their case the way you or I do. If this is the case, equating them to people of questionable character or intellect is just not called for. If they don't believe it, why not just present the ill logic their statements are predicated upon?

In either case, as soon as emotions come into play, you've given a valid opportunity to the person you're debating with to just deflect by accurately pointing out that you are resorting to fallacious attacks. In no way, shape or form have I proposed not calling out bullshit. I've simply said that there's a right way and a wrong way to do so.

I put in bold this part of your response because it gets to the heart of the matter.

The poster who Halifax was responding to clearly is trying to spread misinformation and just plain bullshit. Many on this forum have pointed it out. When called out said poster moves on to more bullshit. Always a moving target and always trying to confuse and muddy the waters. A tactic learned, I can only assume, from Trump himself.

I agree it would be best if we could leave most emotion out of it for a more clear picture and better debate, but then this place would be boring if it was all gone. It's the passion I see here, and the new information I learn, that keeps me coming back. Emotion and passion can lead to an invigorating debate.

I really don't agree. I'm confident that BS believes what he writes here, and I say that as someone who disagrees with much of what he posts.

Whoosh. Not talking about BS. Thought that was clear.

Halifax2TheMax

benjs said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Woa! Woa! Woa! Because that's what I do. I print my name, I sign my name. And then when, I sing the pledge of allegiance. Because going to a wedding and entering a country are the same. Are you usually this misinformed? Or just hateful? Be honest.

Halifax, I mean this honestly: treating people who feel differently than you this poorly is not productive to showing them why they shouldn't. This goes for the Trump debates, but also any other topic in life, and there are a few prerequisites which without them, you're going to have a hard time changing minds

1. Don't attack character. If someone calls me a Nazi sympathizer and I'm not, that person's credibility is lost in my eyes, because I feel they fallaciously make conclusions.
2. Don't make a battle out of a debate. If both of your objectives are truth and not war, then exposed knowledge which adds to a pile of data on which to pass judgment can only be a positive. Don't let winning be the objective, it must be discovery of the truth.
3. Recognize the bias you have inherited, and that there is no shame in needing to consciously strip your opinions of the biases within you in order to reassess the truth of your opinions. It is not an attack to be reminded of bias.
4. Just be respectful. We're living things here.

I'm sorry if you find this preachy, but I've found these to be things absent by and large in this community. I've probably forgotten them from time to time too but am trying to be more cognizant of them.

Thanks for the lecture but I'm not trying to "win" the debate nor earn style points. You communicate your beliefs your way and I'll communicate mine my way. Fair enough?

my2hands

Nazi sympathizers

LongestRoad

If you ignore the Trump and Obama bashing in the article, there are some facts to look at.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444370/donald-trump-refugee-executive-order-no-muslim-ban-separating-fact-hysteria
Iraq, Iran, Sudan, and Syria were listed in a 2015 and 2016 law (The "Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015" and its 2016 update adding Libya, Somalia, and Yemen).

vaggar99

my2hands said:

Nazi sympathizers

it's becoming more and more apparent that this is the case. it makes me sick to know that members of my own family are this fucked up.