Kaepernick

benjs

RYME said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

RYME said:

Smellyman said:

riley540 said:

tbergs said:

RYME said:

Yeah, says a lot about me.
Protesters should not mind being protested. It goes both ways.

Like I say they are free to do whatever they want.  I don't have to like it.
And that does not  make me racist, pro violence, pro oppression.
But I am kinda proud of that ragged old flag.

https://youtu.be/-KqrjeScLSI

What about the flag itself makes you proud? Serious question.

The flag represents the brightest beacon of freedom in the entire world. Regardless of President, good or bad, through thick and thin, the United States thrives and offers entrepreneurial success to those willing to work hard. I love the history of the United States. The founding of the country. The abolishment of slavery, the great times, and the bad times. I absolutely love everything about the United States. It’s an idea, that always seems to keep working no matter how shitty things can get. The flag represents all of that for me. And anybody can disagree or try to pick apart what I said, but it’s how I feel and nothing can really change that. 

You should get out more

Some really classy guys hang out around here.
I think the Flag also represents your rights to shit & piss on it all you want.
That's why I think the people who are doing so are misguided.

oh, you mean, like, making fun of oppression and minorities being indiscriminately killed by cops? SUPER classy. 

The initial protests by Kaepernick were about oppression.  The latest league wide protest was aimed at Trump.  I never made fun of oppression and minorities being in indiscriminately killed by cops.  I'm totally against that.

Isn't suppression of free speech (seen as a Constitutional right when convenient) a form of oppression? Trump may have pivoted the context, but rest assured that this is as much about oppression as ever before, though this time it's oppression of dissenters.

This is why leakers of nefarious intent are condemned, rather than those who actually had the nefarious intent. This is why the media is criticized when it is critical of politicians, rather than the politicians who behave in ways not for the people.

If you have an issue with oppression, if you believe in the Constitutional rights of equality and freedom of expression, then I'm at a loss why the league-wide protest is of any concern to you. 

oftenreading

The USA actually has less social/economic mobility - that is, less opportunity, than many other western countries. Even the Repubs recognize this. 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html

Thirty Bills Unpaid

oftenreading said:

RYME said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

RYME said:

Smellyman said:

riley540 said:

tbergs said:

RYME said:

Yeah, says a lot about me.
Protesters should not mind being protested. It goes both ways.

Like I say they are free to do whatever they want.  I don't have to like it.
And that does not  make me racist, pro violence, pro oppression.
But I am kinda proud of that ragged old flag.

https://youtu.be/-KqrjeScLSI

What about the flag itself makes you proud? Serious question.

The flag represents the brightest beacon of freedom in the entire world. Regardless of President, good or bad, through thick and thin, the United States thrives and offers entrepreneurial success to those willing to work hard. I love the history of the United States. The founding of the country. The abolishment of slavery, the great times, and the bad times. I absolutely love everything about the United States. It’s an idea, that always seems to keep working no matter how shitty things can get. The flag represents all of that for me. And anybody can disagree or try to pick apart what I said, but it’s how I feel and nothing can really change that. 

You should get out more

Some really classy guys hang out around here.
I think the Flag also represents your rights to shit & piss on it all you want.
That's why I think the people who are doing so are misguided.

oh, you mean, like, making fun of oppression and minorities being indiscriminately killed by cops? SUPER classy. 

The initial protests by Kaepernick were about oppression.  The latest league wide protest was aimed at Trump.  I never made fun of oppression and minorities being in indiscriminately killed by cops.  I'm totally against that.

RYME said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

RYME said:

Smellyman said:

riley540 said:

tbergs said:

RYME said:

Yeah, says a lot about me.
Protesters should not mind being protested. It goes both ways.

Like I say they are free to do whatever they want.  I don't have to like it.
And that does not  make me racist, pro violence, pro oppression.
But I am kinda proud of that ragged old flag.

https://youtu.be/-KqrjeScLSI

What about the flag itself makes you proud? Serious question.

The flag represents the brightest beacon of freedom in the entire world. Regardless of President, good or bad, through thick and thin, the United States thrives and offers entrepreneurial success to those willing to work hard. I love the history of the United States. The founding of the country. The abolishment of slavery, the great times, and the bad times. I absolutely love everything about the United States. It’s an idea, that always seems to keep working no matter how shitty things can get. The flag represents all of that for me. And anybody can disagree or try to pick apart what I said, but it’s how I feel and nothing can really change that. 

You should get out more

Some really classy guys hang out around here.
I think the Flag also represents your rights to shit & piss on it all you want.
That's why I think the people who are doing so are misguided.

oh, you mean, like, making fun of oppression and minorities being indiscriminately killed by cops? SUPER classy. 

The initial protests by Kaepernick were about oppression.  The latest league wide protest was aimed at Trump.  I never made fun of oppression and minorities being in indiscriminately killed by cops.  I'm totally against that.

The fact that you keep saying that the protests are against Trump doesn't necessarily make it true, but even if it were, it's due to the fact the Trump has tried to quash those legitimate protests.

The recent, high profile demonstration was in direct response to Trump and his comments. They were demonstrating in support of individual rights. This was not piling on and supporting the protest Kap initiated... it was supporting Kap and Bennett and others' right to demonstrate. 

I'm not saying these players are not on board with the idea of supporting the opposition of police abuse... I'm saying that they likely are, but have chosen to support it in other ways than kneeling during the national anthem.

RYME

HughFreakingDillon said:

RYME said:

I think there should be a different protest demonstration every week at these sporitng events.  Let's get all sports involved.  I don't want the NBA to feel like they are left out.  Baseball, Rodeos, Ice boating all of it.
 I think this coming weekend, all the players should step out of the players line and instead of kneeling, they should do the Michael Jackson Moonwalk.  Might be hard to do with cleats on,, so they should all take off and throw their shoes at somebody, and then do some Moonwalking during the anthem.  Maybe spin around 3 times fast at the end, and try to land on their tippy toes.  It would be awesome.
Next week, step out and do some sort of shake your booty dance for those two minutes.  Mix it up a bit, make it interesting.  Highlight what ever, or whoever you want to protest this week, and have at it.  Dance my brothers and sisters, during the anthem, at funerals, it doesn't matter.
Its what ever you want, where ever you want, and how ever you want.  If we can't have a little fun in these troubled times, all is lost.

this is making fun of the protests. 

Yeah, the protests, linking arms whatever.
Not the oppressed, and not those indiscriminately killed by cops.
The American flag is physically is a piece of cloth or fabric.  What they are all angry about is totally legit.
The American flag , and the United States of America does not represent, condone, stand for, or support oppression.  There are bad apples among us.  But that's not who it represents.  That's my beef with the whole thing.
I'm done.

HughFreakingDillon

RYME said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

RYME said:

I think there should be a different protest demonstration every week at these sporitng events.  Let's get all sports involved.  I don't want the NBA to feel like they are left out.  Baseball, Rodeos, Ice boating all of it.
 I think this coming weekend, all the players should step out of the players line and instead of kneeling, they should do the Michael Jackson Moonwalk.  Might be hard to do with cleats on,, so they should all take off and throw their shoes at somebody, and then do some Moonwalking during the anthem.  Maybe spin around 3 times fast at the end, and try to land on their tippy toes.  It would be awesome.
Next week, step out and do some sort of shake your booty dance for those two minutes.  Mix it up a bit, make it interesting.  Highlight what ever, or whoever you want to protest this week, and have at it.  Dance my brothers and sisters, during the anthem, at funerals, it doesn't matter.
Its what ever you want, where ever you want, and how ever you want.  If we can't have a little fun in these troubled times, all is lost.

this is making fun of the protests. 

Yeah, the protests, linking arms whatever.
Not the oppressed, and not those indiscriminately killed by cops.
The American flag is physically is a piece of cloth or fabric.  What they are all angry about is totally legit.
The American flag , and the United States of America does not represent, condone, stand for, or support oppression.  There are bad apples among us.  But that's not who it represents.  That's my beef with the whole thing.
I'm done.

you can't make fun of the protests and claim to not be making fun of the protesters and what they are protesting against. 

the US absolutely condones it. that's why it is still happening. 

the US is not alone. Canada continues to do the same thing to its indigenous peoples. if there were more aboriginals in sports in Canada, I have no doubt something similar would be happening here. as it should. 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

As disappointed as I am with the US right now for several reasons... I'd rather have them as the global power than Russia or North Korea or Saudi Arabia.

It's still a piece of work in my mind. It has some rather large obstacles it needs to navigate itself around at the moment, but I hope they can do it. 

Like Canada and other countries... it has a shameful past that reflects a different mentality inherent with some eras, however, I felt that it was winning when you compare the current with the recent past (in reality... segregation in the south was not that long ago). I mean... Obama was elected as the POTUS. This alone is a monumental achievement for the equality movement.

I am not saying racism does not exist anymore. I am saying eliminating it is a long term project. We need old racist bastards to die with their mentalities and we need to replace these people with younger and better educated people that understand the error in such twisted thinking. It's a bit of a waiting game.

The US also needs social policies that offer legitimate chances to people mired in poverty to escape poverty. The country's wealth distribution seems to be based on legacy more than anything and if you have not been born into some semblance of economic prosperity... it's unlikely you are going to succeed at becoming financially comfortable. 

HughFreakingDillon

this is why it is so important to have programs directed at those minority populations, and why I get so tired of people like my parents constantly bitching about "those damn indians just want more handouts!". like fuck, if we hadn't tried to eradicate their culture for generations, they wouldn't need these "handouts". 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HughFreakingDillon said:

this is why it is so important to have programs directed at those minority populations, and why I get so tired of people like my parents constantly bitching about "those damn indians just want more handouts!". like fuck, if we hadn't tried to eradicate their culture for generations, they wouldn't need these "handouts". 

What I failed to understand for many years was the fact that we dramatically altered the fabric of native populations when we systematically institutionalized 'every' Indian child in the reservation school system: proceeding to try and wash the Indian from them by shaming their culture among many things... let alone the widespread abuse at the hands of organized religion who ran the reservation schools.

The native people had no chance. They suffered significant trauma at our great grandparents' hands. People emerged from the reservation school system damaged- incapable of feeling good about themselves and incapable of simply 'moving on' or 'getting over it'. Future generations were damaged as well as these same people lacked the skills to be effective parents given the pain they lived with. The handouts have done nothing to eliminate the widespread trauma within the culture.

Complicating things... they still lack the enzyme required to metabolize alcohol that European people developed through centuries of swilling grog. When they look to escape from their pain with alcohol and drugs... it gets worse.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

this is why it is so important to have programs directed at those minority populations, and why I get so tired of people like my parents constantly bitching about "those damn indians just want more handouts!". like fuck, if we hadn't tried to eradicate their culture for generations, they wouldn't need these "handouts". 

What I failed to understand for many years was the fact that we dramatically altered the fabric of native populations when we systematically institutionalized 'every' Indian child in the reservation school system: proceeding to try and wash the Indian from them by shaming their culture among many things... let alone the widespread abuse at the hands of organized religion who ran the reservation schools.

The native people had no chance. They suffered significant trauma at our great grandparents' hands. People emerged from the reservation school system damaged- incapable of feeling good about themselves and incapable of simply 'moving on' or 'getting over it'. Future generations were damaged as well as these same people lacked the skills to be effective parents given the pain they lived with. The handouts have done nothing to eliminate the widespread trauma within the culture.

Complicating things... they still lack the enzyme required to metabolize alcohol that European people developed through centuries of swilling grog. When they look to escape from their pain with alcohol and drugs... it gets worse.

they do? I've never heard that. 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

this is why it is so important to have programs directed at those minority populations, and why I get so tired of people like my parents constantly bitching about "those damn indians just want more handouts!". like fuck, if we hadn't tried to eradicate their culture for generations, they wouldn't need these "handouts". 

What I failed to understand for many years was the fact that we dramatically altered the fabric of native populations when we systematically institutionalized 'every' Indian child in the reservation school system: proceeding to try and wash the Indian from them by shaming their culture among many things... let alone the widespread abuse at the hands of organized religion who ran the reservation schools.

The native people had no chance. They suffered significant trauma at our great grandparents' hands. People emerged from the reservation school system damaged- incapable of feeling good about themselves and incapable of simply 'moving on' or 'getting over it'. Future generations were damaged as well as these same people lacked the skills to be effective parents given the pain they lived with. The handouts have done nothing to eliminate the widespread trauma within the culture.

Complicating things... they still lack the enzyme required to metabolize alcohol that European people developed through centuries of swilling grog. When they look to escape from their pain with alcohol and drugs... it gets worse.

they do? I've never heard that. 

The idea has been disputed, but it has been presented to me by knowledgeable people I have come to respect.

From an evolutionary standpoint alone... it stands to reason. Native people never did very well at all with the substance upon first being introduced to it.

OnWis97

RYME said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

RYME said:

Smellyman said:

riley540 said:

tbergs said:

RYME said:

Yeah, says a lot about me.
Protesters should not mind being protested. It goes both ways.

Like I say they are free to do whatever they want.  I don't have to like it.
And that does not  make me racist, pro violence, pro oppression.
But I am kinda proud of that ragged old flag.

https://youtu.be/-KqrjeScLSI

What about the flag itself makes you proud? Serious question.

The flag represents the brightest beacon of freedom in the entire world. Regardless of President, good or bad, through thick and thin, the United States thrives and offers entrepreneurial success to those willing to work hard. I love the history of the United States. The founding of the country. The abolishment of slavery, the great times, and the bad times. I absolutely love everything about the United States. It’s an idea, that always seems to keep working no matter how shitty things can get. The flag represents all of that for me. And anybody can disagree or try to pick apart what I said, but it’s how I feel and nothing can really change that. 

You should get out more

Some really classy guys hang out around here.
I think the Flag also represents your rights to shit & piss on it all you want.
That's why I think the people who are doing so are misguided.

oh, you mean, like, making fun of oppression and minorities being indiscriminately killed by cops? SUPER classy. 

The initial protests by Kaepernick were about oppression.  The latest league wide protest was aimed at Trump.  I never made fun of oppression and minorities being in indiscriminately killed by cops.  I'm totally against that.

I don't necessary disagree with that.  But I also think it's OK that players responded to a President totally overstepping his bounds (illegally) and said "hell no...you're not telling us what to do."  To let Trump's over-reach go would be to open the door to let him continue to try to push them around (not to mention empower him to try to pull this shit elsewhere).  It's not Trump's role to tell the NFL or its players how to conduct themselves and it's totally appropriate for them to say "fuck you" in response.  

HesCalledDyer

I hate the term Indian. And I hate the term Native American.  Calling indigenous peoples "American" when they were here before "North America" or "The United States of America" existed is still bastardizing and washing away their culture.  They never were American.  We called them that AFTER we got here and named it America.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HesCalledDyer said:

I hate the term Indian. And I hate the term Native American.  Calling indigenous peoples "American" when they were here before "North America" or "The United States of America" existed is still bastardizing and washing away their culture.  They never were American.  We called them that AFTER we got here and named it America.

I used these terms for discussion purposes, Dyer. Native leaders in our communities use the terms as well in various settings. I certainly hope you aren't suggesting I was being disrespectful- I'm very much in these people's corners.

cincybearcat

HesCalledDyer said:

I hate the term Indian. And I hate the term Native American.  Calling indigenous peoples "American" when they were here before "North America" or "The United States of America" existed is still bastardizing and washing away their culture.  They never were American.  We called them that AFTER we got here and named it America.

So what do you like then?

cause indigenous isn’t enough...indidenous to what?

HesCalledDyer

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

I hate the term Indian. And I hate the term Native American.  Calling indigenous peoples "American" when they were here before "North America" or "The United States of America" existed is still bastardizing and washing away their culture.  They never were American.  We called them that AFTER we got here and named it America.

I used these terms for discussion purposes, Dyer. Native leaders in our communities use the terms as well in various settings. I certainly hope you aren't suggesting I was being disrespectful- I'm very much in these people's corners.

No, no, that wasn't directed to you at all.  Just an "open air" comment.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HesCalledDyer said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

I hate the term Indian. And I hate the term Native American.  Calling indigenous peoples "American" when they were here before "North America" or "The United States of America" existed is still bastardizing and washing away their culture.  They never were American.  We called them that AFTER we got here and named it America.

I used these terms for discussion purposes, Dyer. Native leaders in our communities use the terms as well in various settings. I certainly hope you aren't suggesting I was being disrespectful- I'm very much in these people's corners.

No, no, that wasn't directed to you at all.  Just an "open air" comment.

Cheers.

Thanks for clarifying.

First Nations is the most 'politically correct' term in my area. Our local band has a name I couldn't pronounce if I practiced for 10 years. As I said though... in various settings- and depending on context and delivery- all those terms are used to describe what has happened and as we pursue reconciliation.

HughFreakingDillon

HesCalledDyer said:

I hate the term Indian. And I hate the term Native American.  Calling indigenous peoples "American" when they were here before "North America" or "The United States of America" existed is still bastardizing and washing away their culture.  They never were American.  We called them that AFTER we got here and named it America.

there's a great Louis CK bit where he goes off about how we called them Indians, figured out pretty much immediately that they weren't in fact Indians, and for hundreds of years continued to call them that. It was only a couple years ago that Canada's federal government changed the name of the Department of Indian Affairs. Hell, there's still a gang in Winnipeg that calls themselves Indian Posse. 

I use the term aboriginal in most contexts, but I'm not even super clear that that is correct. is aboriginal all-encompassing? I don't know if First Nations is either. 

I still constantly correct people when they use the term "East Indian" when referring to all people from India. I'm like "they're just Indian". People usually get annoyed, but seriously, they are Indian. If you know for a fact that they are from Bangladesh, fine, but you don't. You are calling them that for the sole reason that you call North American Aboriginals Indians, so you feel the need to distinguish based on your archaic cultural labeling. 

anyway, back to Colin. 

brianlux

HesCalledDyer said:

I hate the term Indian. And I hate the term Native American.  Calling indigenous peoples "American" when they were here before "North America" or "The United States of America" existed is still bastardizing and washing away their culture.  They never were American.  We called them that AFTER we got here and named it America.

That really is a tough dilemma.  First of all, a term like "Indian" makes it sound like they're all the same people which they were/are not.  "Native American" is closer except, as you say, "America" is a European term that comes from the name of the explorer, Amerigo Vespucci.

I asked an "Indian" guy who comes into the store now and then what term he prefers and he said "American Indian". 

But I remember finding the following article a few years ago and the people questioned more often said they preferred being regarded by their tribe (although that's difficult to determine unless you ask the person):

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/culture/social-issues/blackhorse-do-you-prefer-native-american-or-american-indian-6-prominent-voices-respond/

Yeah, Europeans stripped Natives of their lands, their cultures, their languages, their health but we did not steal their pride.  I talked to a guy not too long  ago  who had been involved in the occupation of Alcatraz from 1969 to 1971 and when he spoke about it, he was damn proud.  I felt like I was in the presence of someone truly heroic.

HughFreakingDillon

brianlux said:

HesCalledDyer said:

I hate the term Indian. And I hate the term Native American.  Calling indigenous peoples "American" when they were here before "North America" or "The United States of America" existed is still bastardizing and washing away their culture.  They never were American.  We called them that AFTER we got here and named it America.

That really is a tough dilemma.  First of all, a term like "Indian" makes it sound like they're all the same people which they were/are not.  "Native American" is closer except, as you say, "America" is a European term that comes from the name of the explorer, Amerigo Vespucci.

I asked an "Indian" guy who comes into the store now and then what term he prefers and he said "American Indian". 

But I remember finding the following article a few years ago and the people questioned more often said they preferred being regarded by their tribe (although that's difficult to determine unless you ask the person):

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/culture/social-issues/blackhorse-do-you-prefer-native-american-or-american-indian-6-prominent-voices-respond/

Yeah, Europeans stripped Natives of their lands, their cultures, their languages, their health but we did not steal their pride.  I talked to a guy not too long  ago  who had been involved in the occupation of Alcatraz from 1969 to 1971 and when he spoke about it, he was damn proud.  I felt like I was in the presence of someone truly heroic.

an aboriginal actually said he prefers to be called american indian? that's interesting. how old was he about?

jeffbr

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

HesCalledDyer said:

I hate the term Indian. And I hate the term Native American.  Calling indigenous peoples "American" when they were here before "North America" or "The United States of America" existed is still bastardizing and washing away their culture.  They never were American.  We called them that AFTER we got here and named it America.

That really is a tough dilemma.  First of all, a term like "Indian" makes it sound like they're all the same people which they were/are not.  "Native American" is closer except, as you say, "America" is a European term that comes from the name of the explorer, Amerigo Vespucci.

I asked an "Indian" guy who comes into the store now and then what term he prefers and he said "American Indian". 

But I remember finding the following article a few years ago and the people questioned more often said they preferred being regarded by their tribe (although that's difficult to determine unless you ask the person):

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/culture/social-issues/blackhorse-do-you-prefer-native-american-or-american-indian-6-prominent-voices-respond/

Yeah, Europeans stripped Natives of their lands, their cultures, their languages, their health but we did not steal their pride.  I talked to a guy not too long  ago  who had been involved in the occupation of Alcatraz from 1969 to 1971 and when he spoke about it, he was damn proud.  I felt like I was in the presence of someone truly heroic.

an aboriginal actually said he prefers to be called american indian? that's interesting. how old was he about?

I've known a number of older Native Americans (for lack of a better term, as this discussion highlights), who called themselves American Indians, and were proud of that identity, as they were in solidarity with the American Indian Movement of the late '60s/early '70s.  Most of the younger Native Americans seem to prefer Native American rather than American Indian.