First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.
Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?
Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"
As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.
Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.
So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.
what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.
We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.
Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.
P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.
Death to the little red letters!
Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.
Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?
Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"
As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.
Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.
So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.
what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.
We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.
Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.
P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.
Death to the little red letters!
Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
Sigh. Ya know Hawks, my sisters avoid this too, when we talk about education and teaching as well. They also get very defensive with how they work their butts off, (never said they don't don't especially special Ed.) yet when I worked 50 hrs/week year round and my other sibling works even more hrs, we had no right "questioning" them. Go figure.
First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.
Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?
Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"
As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.
Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.
So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.
what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.
We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.
Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.
P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.
Death to the little red letters!
Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.
Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.
That's not true, at least in my state. Each individual has negotiating power when it's contract renewal time. You also said you get paid close to 100k, so... You would get paid much more if you didn't have all that time off?
The above post was directed to you in response to the post directly above it.
The quoting feature messed up.
i was using the general 'other professionals' that the original article referred to.
are you really debating that teachers don't work less days? as i mentioned a few pages ago teachers in my local school district get up to 15 extra days off DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR than regular office professionals. add in summer days and you are looking at closer the 50 days which i conservatively estimated. it is probably closer to 60 to 70 less days teachers work than regular office professionals. i can't believe people are actually disputing this.
I don't think anyone is disputing that they get summers, christmas, and spring break off. what we are disputing is your assertion that they work less hours during that time. I don't know anyone in my office that works 40-50 hours per week. 200 employees, most of which don't even put in the hours they get paid for. Myself included (ever notice I'm-and many others-only on this website during the day? ).
plus, the work they do, arguably, is one of the most important professions in existence. I think it's terrible that this profession, not to mention police officers, in the US, both get paid so little. in Canada, both professions get paid very well, and for good reason.
i have never once said they work less during a normal work day...just that they work less days overalll. for about the 10th time, the original article stated they get paid 77% of what other professionals get paid. with all those days off they work about...drumroll please...about 77% of the time that other professionals work thus making their pay about the same as other professionals.
you also have to factor in pensions with their pay. so yes they make less now but if you add in the amount they make off that job after retirement it gets them a lot closer to what regular professionals get despite 50-70 less days per year.
Duh.
We all know what you're saying... speculating that is. You're 'days worked' assertion holds no water until you offer a solid example for comparison's sake.
You've alluded to pensions and benefits now. Do other professions not offer pensions and benefits? What about expense accounts or company cars other jobs feature? Come on, man.
What profession makes teaching the dream job you make it out to be? There Might be one. I'd seriously like to know.
how the fuck does my assertion not hold water? do you know of one other profession used by people with college degrees that gets up to 50-70 weekdays off per fucking year not including vacation days? how the fuck can people dispute this?
edit: how did pointing out how many days teachers get off become somehow against teachers? god forbid i state facts. i'm done.
Nurse max wage (excluding OT) $99,000 Teacher max wage $83,000
Nurse days of work 3-4 days per week... opportunities for OT... plus holidays (52 weeks X 3.5 days= 183 days) Teachers days of work as per collective agreement 187 per year
* I'm thankful our nurses get what they do. They offer a wonderful service to us and I appreciate them and the stresses and challenges they face on a daily basis. I'm not offering this comparison for any other reason than to model for PJHawks a useful comparison for discussion's sake.
Every teacher has a union contract in my state, they are required to communicate with all parents and pass all assignments back in a timely fashion. You mentioned earlier that you don't have to do any of that,.. Through a contract!
" At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave ..,"
And to set the record straight... what do you do for a living, Free?
teacher friend of mine at the cottage complained on Sunday about "having to go back to work in 2 weeks for a meeting". I said "um, I have to go to work TOMORROW". She sheepishly said "right, guess I shouldn't complain". I hear her bitch and complain about how much time she puts in after hours and whatnot (she's the minority out of teachers I know in that respect). But, she gets 12 weeks off per year. A very good salary (just south of 100K). Encouraged to take as many sick days as possible so the union doesn't lose them in their next contract negotiation and so part time/on-call teachers get a piece of the pie.
HOWEVER, she is stuck between a rock and a hard place with regards to entitled parents, shitty kids (see entitled parents), and an administration that caters to those parents, all the while knowing she's pushing kids through the system who aren't necessarily prepared to move on. the best she can do is the best she can do. the system is broken. all she can hope for is a good class that isn't overstuffed.
I get the feeling most teachers are stressed the fuck out, and the summer off is a small bonus. But once September hits.......
teacher friend of mine at the cottage complained on Sunday about "having to go back to work in 2 weeks for a meeting". I said "um, I have to go to work TOMORROW". She sheepishly said "right, guess I shouldn't complain". I hear her bitch and complain about how much time she puts in after hours and whatnot (she's the minority out of teachers I know in that respect). But, she gets 12 weeks off per year. A very good salary (just south of 100K). Encouraged to take as many sick days as possible so the union doesn't lose them in their next contract negotiation and so part time/on-call teachers get a piece of the pie.
HOWEVER, she is stuck between a rock and a hard place with regards to entitled parents, shitty kids (see entitled parents), and an administration that caters to those parents, all the while knowing she's pushing kids through the system who aren't necessarily prepared to move on. the best she can do is the best she can do. the system is broken. all she can hope for is a good class that isn't overstuffed.
I get the feeling most teachers are stressed the fuck out, and the summer off is a small bonus. But once September hits.......
So dealing with a few entitled parents and kids makes up for her high paying part-time job? We're all stressed out from our jobs, perhaps we all get 12 weeks vacation a year. And TENURE!
Why is it some teachers are spoiled rotten and others don't get fair pay? Maybe consider what state they teach in.
pretty sure my post highlighted both the pros and cons of teaching. I don't think elementary school or high school teachers have tenure. at least not in canada. I thought that was just college professors.
part time job? they are at the school for 7 hours minimum. not to mention anything they do before or after class, and from home. and that also doesn't include standing around the coffee machine chatting about your weekend or browsing the pearl jam fan forum.
I'm not stressed out from my job. my job is very low stress. however, my salary shows it. I can't imagine dealing with parents nowadays, especially with email. teachers are essentially always accessible now.
if you think teaching is such a cakewalk, why didn't you choose it for a career?
Yeah, elementary and high school teachers get tenure here. One teacher got tenure after one year in my district where the going rate is five years minimum. But it is up to the school board to approve each individual. Part-time as in part of the year. Govt/national holidays, snow days (up to 5), school vacations, summer vacation all included. The teachers I work w/ get an hour every school day devoted to "planning time" alone.
why the quotes around planning time? you think they spend it playing xbox? my wife is a childcare director, and she gives her staff planning time every chance she can. and it is invaluable. she runs one of, if not the, best child care places in the city.
I used quotes because they don't HAVE to use the time for planning, but usually do.
Every teacher has a union contract in my state, they are required to communicate with all parents and pass all assignments back in a timely fashion. You mentioned earlier that you don't have to do any of that,.. Through a contract!
" At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave ..,"
And to set the record straight... what do you do for a living, Free?
Certified teaching assistant, aide and school office reception.
...and a parent of a special Ed student. How many posting here are parents and as a parent, how's the communication? I rely on thorough communication via monthly meetings, email and face to face since I am in her school. When you have regular communication w/ your kid's teachers, there's no time for finger pointing. It's the bad parents and bad teachers that give broad generalizations of both.
But that doesn't negate that a. Teachers are protected by unions, and b. They have lengthy time off.
Oh, and this statistic that a large % leave teaching in 5 years? Not in my state. With the promise of contractual agreements, tenure, good pay and time off, why would they?
Every teacher has a union contract in my state, they are required to communicate with all parents and pass all assignments back in a timely fashion. You mentioned earlier that you don't have to do any of that,.. Through a contract!
" At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave ..,"
And to set the record straight... what do you do for a living, Free?
Certified teaching assistant, aide and school office reception.
...and a parent of a special Ed student. How many posting here are parents and as a parent, how's the communication? I rely on thorough communication via monthly meetings, email and face to face since I am in her school.
You must be an awesome support worker!
Do the teachers you support know you feel this way about them?
Every teacher has a union contract in my state, they are required to communicate with all parents and pass all assignments back in a timely fashion. You mentioned earlier that you don't have to do any of that,.. Through a contract!
" At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave ..,"
And to set the record straight... what do you do for a living, Free?
Certified teaching assistant, aide and school office reception.
...and a parent of a special Ed student. How many posting here are parents and as a parent, how's the communication? I rely on thorough communication via monthly meetings, email and face to face since I am in her school. When you have regular communication w/ your kid's teachers, there's no time for finger pointing. It's the bad parents and bad teachers that give broad generalizations of both.
But that doesn't negate that a. Teachers are protected by unions, and b. They have lengthy time off.
Oh, and this statistic that a large % leave teaching in 5 years? Not in my state. With the promise of contractual agreements, tenure, good pay and time off, why would they?
I am a parent and the communication with both my daughters' teachers is exceptional (going into grades 2 and 5). I often email one of them with a question after hours/weekends, and don't expect a response until regular business hours, or for them to talk to me about it when I see them, but they usually get back to me on their own time. factor that in with 20+ students, and other parents who do that on a regular basis, that adds up to a lot of unpaid work time.
I would NOT want to be a teacher in this day and age of technology and the expectation of being available after hours. I certainly don't expect it, and when avoidable, I don't do it.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Every teacher has a union contract in my state, they are required to communicate with all parents and pass all assignments back in a timely fashion. You mentioned earlier that you don't have to do any of that,.. Through a contract!
" At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave ..,"
And to set the record straight... what do you do for a living, Free?
Certified teaching assistant, aide and school office reception.
...and a parent of a special Ed student. How many posting here are parents and as a parent, how's the communication? I rely on thorough communication via monthly meetings, email and face to face since I am in her school. When you have regular communication w/ your kid's teachers, there's no time for finger pointing. It's the bad parents and bad teachers that give broad generalizations of both.
But that doesn't negate that a. Teachers are protected by unions, and b. They have lengthy time off.
Interesting. You assert that you demand thorough communication from your teachers. You state this after spending many posts knocking teachers for how little they do.
Can I ask when this communication occurs between you and the teachers of your child? It doesn't occur when the lesson is occurring... correct? So I'm assuming it occurs after the school day is done or during a lunch hour (given you have immediate access if you were inclined to access a teacher during their break). Taking it further... planning and marking aside... parental contact alone takes the job outside of the contracted hours... yes?
Every teacher has a union contract in my state, they are required to communicate with all parents and pass all assignments back in a timely fashion. You mentioned earlier that you don't have to do any of that,.. Through a contract!
" At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave ..,"
So just to be clear....
It's okay for you to "bait ", bully, insult, be judgemental, and antagonize posters on here
But it's wrong when others do it? Even when they aren't?
Ok...here is what I would like to know, and I understand if certain people/posters are through with this thread...
1. Free, I would like to know more about the 2 problems you mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't think you ever got a chance to elaborate on those 2 issues you spoke of...
2. Whatdreams, I would like to know more about how changes in parenting have impacted the way you feel about teaching.
3. Thirty and brianlux, what would you like most of all for the average lay person to understand about teaching?
Ok...here is what I would like to know, and I understand if certain people/posters are through with this thread...
1. Free, I would like to know more about the 2 problems you mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't think you ever got a chance to elaborate on those 2 issues you spoke of...
2. Whatdreams, I would like to know more about how changes in parenting have impacted the way you feel about teaching.
3. Thirty and brianlux, what would you like most of all for the average lay person to understand about teaching?
I would say: a) A good education is not a substitute for good parenting. It is not our job to be your kid's parent and b) Understand that most teachers do the best they can and that lack of parental and administrative support is often a deterrent to that.
I'm sure there's more that that is what comes to mind right off.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
"Try to not spook the horse."
-Neil Young
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
1. Teaching is immeasurable. You can't quantify when good teaching has occurred... you can only tell when it has or hasn't happened.
2. The public needs to embrace its teaching force. It needs to be prepared to not only compensate teachers for their efforts, but also respect the same efforts. It needs to encourage people to enter the profession and succeed- both professionally and personally- within it.
3. Teachers unions need to be prepared to negotiate a model of accountability into contracts. Exactly how 'accountability' might be measured... I'm not entirely sure (although I do have ideas I won't go into at this moment).
The public would likely go along with item 2 if they knew there were legitimate steps employers could take to support and/or relieve poor performers.
"My brain's a good brain!"
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
1. Teaching is immeasurable. You can't quantify when good teaching has occurred... you can only tell when it has or hasn't happened.
2. The public needs to embrace its teaching force. It needs to be prepared to not only compensate teachers for their efforts, but also respect the same efforts. It needs to encourage people to enter the profession and succeed- both professionally and personally- within it.
3. Teachers unions need to be prepared to negotiate a model of accountability into contracts. Exactly how 'accountability' might be measured... I'm not entirely sure (although I do have ideas I won't go into at this moment).
The public would likely go along with item 2 if they knew there were legitimate steps employers could take to support and/or relieve poor performers.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
1. Teaching is immeasurable. You can't quantify when good teaching has occurred... you can only tell when it has or hasn't happened.
2. The public needs to embrace its teaching force. It needs to be prepared to not only compensate teachers for their efforts, but also respect the same efforts. It needs to encourage people to enter the profession and succeed- both professionally and personally- within it.
3. Teachers unions need to be prepared to negotiate a model of accountability into contracts. Exactly how 'accountability' might be measured... I'm not entirely sure (although I do have ideas I won't go into at this moment).
The public would likely go along with item 2 if they knew there were legitimate steps employers could take to support and/or relieve poor performers.
Thirty, #2 - I just made a joke about not being a parent, but I do know that it is important for the public to respect/embrace educators, regardless of whether one has children or not. Glad you phrased it that way.
First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.
Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?
Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"
As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.
Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.
So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.
what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.
We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.
Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.
P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.
Death to the little red letters!
Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.
Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.
That's not true, at least in my state. Each individual has negotiating power when it's contract renewal time. You also said you get paid close to 100k, so... You would get paid much more if you didn't have all that time off?
I have never said I get paid close to 100 grand. I'm not sure where you read that, but it wasn't me.
Ok...here is what I would like to know, and I understand if certain people/posters are through with this thread...
1. Free, I would like to know more about the 2 problems you mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't think you ever got a chance to elaborate on those 2 issues you spoke of...
2. Whatdreams, I would like to know more about how changes in parenting have impacted the way you feel about teaching.
3. Thirty and brianlux, what would you like most of all for the average lay person to understand about teaching?
OffSheGoes, I feel a major concern right now for the growing amount of mental health issues I see cropping up in students. I have had more students institutionalized in the past three years than I have in the previous 20. I have had multiple students in the past few years with diagnosed anxiety disorders at age 13 and 14. Many, many more go undiagnosed with major depressive symptoms. I'm just terribly concerned that most parents are either not paying any attention at all to their kids or they're paying the wrong kind of attention and making their children anxious and depressed with really dysfunctional parenting. I see very few healthy relationships between parents and their children, and that bleeds over into my job. I can't educate an unwell brain.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
edited August 2016
I think we can agree that teacher pay, quality of schooling including the human interaction aspect, resources and infrastructure varies around this country (let alone the world) like crazy. I've seen them all, rat infested leaky roofed American Indian school and schools for children of Hispanic farm workers/ field hands. an institution for mostly inner city black kids living in large dorms and getting their last shot at job training before very likely ending up in jail (that job was intense, almost got killed on that one). Schools for children of wealthy professionals. Alternative schools. I've worked in all of these. It's different all over.
But the bottom line is, the article talked about averages. Statistics, ho hum.
(Random thought)
Oh, and Free, you asked me if I taught. Yes. -One year in an eastern New York State high school with black listed unruly delinquents who could not be maintained/controlled in a regular class. I learned more from these kids than in any other teaching experience. -One year in a Job Corps Training site. -Two full years with a fifth/sixth grade combo. -One year homeschooling a fourth grade student. -Five years subbing (mostly grades 6-12 but did 'em all from K up). -One year at a county job training site. -Two years tutoring adults. -Two years in a Health Library (I consider this a teaching position) -Two years program assistant at our local college.
I think that's all of them but it's hard to remember. I've had a little over thirty different types of jobs.
Post edited by brianlux on
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
"Try to not spook the horse."
-Neil Young
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
Ok...here is what I would like to know, and I understand if certain people/posters are through with this thread...
1. Free, I would like to know more about the 2 problems you mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't think you ever got a chance to elaborate on those 2 issues you spoke of...
2. Whatdreams, I would like to know more about how changes in parenting have impacted the way you feel about teaching.
3. Thirty and brianlux, what would you like most of all for the average lay person to understand about teaching?
OffSheGoes, I feel a major concern right now for the growing amount of mental health issues I see cropping up in students. I have had more students institutionalized in the past three years than I have in the previous 20. I have had multiple students in the past few years with diagnosed anxiety disorders at age 13 and 14. Many, many more go undiagnosed with major depressive symptoms. I'm just terribly concerned that most parents are either not paying any attention at all to their kids or they're paying the wrong kind of attention and making their children anxious and depressed with really dysfunctional parenting. I see very few healthy relationships between parents and their children, and that bleeds over into my job. I can't educate an unwell brain.
Is it any wonder? From their perspective, I can only imagine how crazy this world seems to them. I'm not surprised kids are mentally ill. I'm not surprised most people are mentally ill (yes, I believe that). R. D. Lang. The Politics of Experience. It's pretty well summed up there.
And add to that environmental poisoning and slow poisoning from our food. Major factor in body, mental health, mind/body health.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
1. Teaching is immeasurable. You can't quantify when good teaching has occurred... you can only tell when it has or hasn't happened.
2. The public needs to embrace its teaching force. It needs to be prepared to not only compensate teachers for their efforts, but also respect the same efforts. It needs to encourage people to enter the profession and succeed- both professionally and personally- within it.
3. Teachers unions need to be prepared to negotiate a model of accountability into contracts. Exactly how 'accountability' might be measured... I'm not entirely sure (although I do have ideas I won't go into at this moment).
The public would likely go along with item 2 if they knew there were legitimate steps employers could take to support and/or relieve poor performers.
Again, no union in my state . . . And we have accountability measures in place to support and relieve poor performers.
Thirty Bills, I think you would agree that what makes this conversation so difficult is that the nation is all over the map regarding contracts, salaries, etc. Articles about national salary averages mask gross disparities between rural/urban and suburban districts. The averages are skewed because teachers are getting younger and they get paid less. There are union states with labor protections and then there is the rest of us. Some localities fund through property taxes, others through a school tax. Each state funds its schools at a different percentage of its revenues, which affects how much a locality has available for salaries. It's a mess. It's why I can't stand getting into conversations with people about it, because the public has no idea what the problem is. They think it's about summer vacation. It's just not.
Thank you for finally sharing with me (us?) that you are a teacher. It helps to know who we are talking to. I didn't know. Sorry.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
Nurse entry wage (excluding OT) $63,000
Teacher entry wage $44,000
Nurse max wage (excluding OT) $99,000
Teacher max wage $83,000
Nurse days of work 3-4 days per week... opportunities for OT... plus holidays (52 weeks X 3.5 days= 183 days)
Teachers days of work as per collective agreement 187 per year
* I'm thankful our nurses get what they do. They offer a wonderful service to us and I appreciate them and the stresses and challenges they face on a daily basis. I'm not offering this comparison for any other reason than to model for PJHawks a useful comparison for discussion's sake.
** Information taken from government PDF files.
...and a parent of a special Ed student. How many posting here are parents and as a parent, how's the communication? I rely on thorough communication via monthly meetings, email and face to face since I am in her school. When you have regular communication w/ your kid's teachers, there's no time for finger pointing. It's the bad parents and bad teachers that give broad generalizations of both.
But that doesn't negate that a. Teachers are protected by unions, and b. They have lengthy time off.
Oh, and this statistic that a large % leave teaching in 5 years? Not in my state. With the promise of contractual agreements, tenure, good pay and time off, why would they?
Do the teachers you support know you feel this way about them?
I would NOT want to be a teacher in this day and age of technology and the expectation of being available after hours. I certainly don't expect it, and when avoidable, I don't do it.
-EV 8/14/93
Can I ask when this communication occurs between you and the teachers of your child? It doesn't occur when the lesson is occurring... correct? So I'm assuming it occurs after the school day is done or during a lunch hour (given you have immediate access if you were inclined to access a teacher during their break). Taking it further... planning and marking aside... parental contact alone takes the job outside of the contracted hours... yes?
It's okay for you to "bait ", bully, insult, be judgemental, and antagonize posters on here
But it's wrong when others do it?
Even when they aren't?
Got it
1. Free, I would like to know more about the 2 problems you mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't think you ever got a chance to elaborate on those 2 issues you spoke of...
2. Whatdreams, I would like to know more about how changes in parenting have impacted the way you feel about teaching.
3. Thirty and brianlux, what would you like most of all for the average lay person to understand about teaching?
Ah well...clusterfuck of a thread in parts, that's for sure.
a) A good education is not a substitute for good parenting. It is not our job to be your kid's parent and
b) Understand that most teachers do the best they can and that lack of parental and administrative support is often a deterrent to that.
I'm sure there's more that that is what comes to mind right off.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Something to do with teachers pay.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
And thank you for good questions- which I think in many ways are more important than answers.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Most of all?
1. Teaching is immeasurable. You can't quantify when good teaching has occurred... you can only tell when it has or hasn't happened.
2. The public needs to embrace its teaching force. It needs to be prepared to not only compensate teachers for their efforts, but also respect the same efforts. It needs to encourage people to enter the profession and succeed- both professionally and personally- within it.
3. Teachers unions need to be prepared to negotiate a model of accountability into contracts. Exactly how 'accountability' might be measured... I'm not entirely sure (although I do have ideas I won't go into at this moment).
The public would likely go along with item 2 if they knew there were legitimate steps employers could take to support and/or relieve poor performers.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
#2 - I just made a joke about not being a parent, but I do know that it is important for the public to respect/embrace educators, regardless of whether one has children or not. Glad you phrased it that way.
Excellent answers from you both!
But the bottom line is, the article talked about averages. Statistics, ho hum.
(Random thought)
Oh, and Free, you asked me if I taught. Yes.
-One year in an eastern New York State high school with black listed unruly delinquents who could not be maintained/controlled in a regular class. I learned more from these kids than in any other teaching experience.
-One year in a Job Corps Training site.
-Two full years with a fifth/sixth grade combo.
-One year homeschooling a fourth grade student.
-Five years subbing (mostly grades 6-12 but did 'em all from K up).
-One year at a county job training site.
-Two years tutoring adults.
-Two years in a Health Library (I consider this a teaching position)
-Two years program assistant at our local college.
I think that's all of them but it's hard to remember. I've had a little over thirty different types of jobs.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Is it any wonder? From their perspective, I can only imagine how crazy this world seems to them. I'm not surprised kids are mentally ill. I'm not surprised most people are mentally ill (yes, I believe that). R. D. Lang. The Politics of Experience. It's pretty well summed up there.
And add to that environmental poisoning and slow poisoning from our food. Major factor in body, mental health, mind/body health.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Thirty Bills, I think you would agree that what makes this conversation so difficult is that the nation is all over the map regarding contracts, salaries, etc. Articles about national salary averages mask gross disparities between rural/urban and suburban districts. The averages are skewed because teachers are getting younger and they get paid less. There are union states with labor protections and then there is the rest of us. Some localities fund through property taxes, others through a school tax. Each state funds its schools at a different percentage of its revenues, which affects how much a locality has available for salaries. It's a mess. It's why I can't stand getting into conversations with people about it, because the public has no idea what the problem is. They think it's about summer vacation. It's just not.
Thank you for finally sharing with me (us?) that you are a teacher. It helps to know who we are talking to. I didn't know. Sorry.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"