Something about teacher's pay...

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  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,602
    brianlux said:

    ^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.

    are you trying to deny that schools are closed in the summers?
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,040
    brianlux said:

    ^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.

    To cut costs, my school district eliminated summer pay three years ago, leaving it to us to manage our own savings from our salary divided by 10 instead of 12. Our last paycheck is June 30 and then we don't see another one until September 30. I have $175 dollars left to get me through the end of September. I blame it on Pearl Jam.
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 6,478
    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    ^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.

    are you trying to deny that schools are closed in the summers?
    Not sure about where you live but here in Colorado a lot of schools are open for summer programs, summer school, administration issues, etc.

    Every teacher I know works during the summer.....
    Summer school
    Summer camps
    Private tutoring
    Etc
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,602
    edited August 2016

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    ^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.

    are you trying to deny that schools are closed in the summers?
    Not sure about where you live but here in Colorado a lot of schools are open for summer programs, summer school, administration issues, etc.

    Every teacher I know works during the summer.....
    Summer school
    Summer camps
    Private tutoring
    Etc
    they don't have to work those and get paid extra for those things. it is not part of their regular pay, at least in my area and for every teacher i know that is the case.
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,040
    It seems many are stuck on my saying leave at 2:40. They missed the words "on most days" in patentheses.

    This summer, I worked five paid days at school at a significantly reduced hourly wage (not my per diem) helping administrators plan our teacher leadership training. I'm in charge of the training on grading, after spending last year as the school rep on the division's policy revision committee, which I only did because 1) my principal appointed me because she said I would bring a common sense perspective, and 2) they paid me extra -- but not much -- to sit through those deadly meetings listening to teachers argue about all the wrong things. Common sense (mostly) prevailed.

    I worked four July days planning my department-wide calendar for the year and one August afternoon meeting with another department chair about various school programs.

    I had my 8th grade teachers over for dinner at the beginning of August. We had a four hour meeting to plan our first unit. I have three young teachers in the 8th grade, all three at three years of experience. (Imagine the year they were all brand new.) They are putting in many more hours than I will because they just don't know their stuff yet. Give it a few more. One is already talking about quitting (and then we'll waste money training another one instead of changing things to retain this one). Another wants to have a baby and when her baby is born, those students will be stranded with an unqualified sub for a while, if she even comes back. Many don't, so we recruit and train again.

    I will get a $500 stipend next June for being department chair. It will work out to about .000000075 an hour. Since it's technically not free labor, I don't mind, and I enjoy helping new teachers become really great ones.

    It is absolutely essential that we solve our human resource problem in education, and I really, really, really wish the public would argue about the right things as well so that common sense prevails.
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    edited August 2016

    Ok...here is what I would like to know, and I understand if certain people/posters are through with this thread...

    1. Free, I would like to know more about the 2 problems you mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't think you ever got a chance to elaborate on those 2 issues you spoke of

    You mean Common Core, a program that every state and DC has implemented but 4.

    "The Common Core is a set of high-quality academic standards in mathematics and English language arts/literacy (ELA). These learning goals outline what a student should know and be able to do at the end of each grade."

    Common core is single handedly dismantling education in the states, after GWB instituted No Child Left Behind and then Obama kept it. Common core has teachers hands tied of real teaching kids, enforces teachers to teach to the test all year, and in my state, dictates teachers performance (which is unfair).

    But I am the only one talking about this.
    Post edited by Free on
  • PJHawks...

    Earlier, I went through the task of making the following comparison for you. Did you note anything? You should have noted days worked compared to pay. Do you remember when you kept insisting all other professions work a minimum of 50 days more and therefore get paid more?

    Province of BC:

    Nurse entry wage (excluding OT) $63,000
    Teacher entry wage $44,000

    Nurse max wage (excluding OT) $99,000
    Teacher max wage $83,000

    Nurse days of work 3-4 days per week... opportunities for OT... plus holidays (52 weeks X 3.5 days= 183 days)
    Teachers days of work as per collective agreement 187 per year

    * I'm thankful our nurses get what they do. They offer a wonderful service to us and I appreciate them and the stresses and challenges they face on a daily basis. I'm not offering this comparison for any other reason than to model for PJHawks a useful comparison for discussion's sake.

    ** Information taken from government PDF files.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,040
    pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    ^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.

    are you trying to deny that schools are closed in the summers?
    Not sure about where you live but here in Colorado a lot of schools are open for summer programs, summer school, administration issues, etc.

    Every teacher I know works during the summer.....
    Summer school
    Summer camps
    Private tutoring
    Etc
    they don't have to work those and get paid extra for those things. it is not part of their regular pay, at least in my area and for every teacher i know that is the case.
    Pjhawks, I just have to get it out there on the table. Whenever I hear people stuck on the summer issue, it always seems to me to come from a place of bitter jealousy.

    Same thing with the pension. I just got back from a visit to a cousin who retired in June from the NYC school system, riddled with stress-related health problems. She recounted several bitter conversations she had with near strangers about her pension. This is a woman who at retirement, was honored by the local NAACP chapter as Music Educator of the Year because of how she helped her poor community. Thousands if her students were invited regularly to sing the Star Spangled Banner at Yankee games. She got instruments into the hands of thousands of kids who would never touch one if it hadn't been for her. They were all bawling their eyes out when they sang at her retirement party. She served our nation for so many years, sacrificed her health along the way, and she will not be floating on a yacht with her retirement pension. She'll be holed up in a small house in western PA getting her health back that teaching took from her.

    Here's the thing . .if anybody wants our salary, our benefits, our vacation plan, our pension . . . They are welcome to join the service. If people are not willing to join the service, then at least appreciate those who do. We make the sacrifice because we love kids and we love our country.

    Notice I never once in this thread have complained about my salary. I've simply stated facts about my choices. I will continue to make choices. I will get by on my last 175 dollars until Sept 30. My complaint is with the seemingly bitter people who dismiss the difficult choice we make, based on narrow reporting about problems in the profession. It just doesn't help solve the problem by dismissing it.
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562

    pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    ^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.

    are you trying to deny that schools are closed in the summers?
    Not sure about where you live but here in Colorado a lot of schools are open for summer programs, summer school, administration issues, etc.

    Every teacher I know works during the summer.....
    Summer school
    Summer camps
    Private tutoring
    Etc
    they don't have to work those and get paid extra for those things. it is not part of their regular pay, at least in my area and for every teacher i know that is the case.
    Pjhawks, I just have to get it out there on the table. Whenever I hear people stuck on the summer issue, it always seems to me to come from a place of bitter jealousy.

    Same thing with the pension. I just got back from a visit to a cousin who retired in June from the NYC school system, riddled with stress-related health problems. She recounted several bitter conversations she had with near strangers about her pension. This is a woman who at retirement, was honored by the local NAACP chapter as Music Educator of the Year because of how she helped her poor community. Thousands if her students were invited regularly to sing the Star Spangled Banner at Yankee games. She got instruments into the hands of thousands of kids who would never touch one if it hadn't been for her. They were all bawling their eyes out when they sang at her retirement party. She served our nation for so many years, sacrificed her health along the way, and she will not be floating on a yacht with her retirement pension. She'll be holed up in a small house in western PA getting her health back that teaching took from her.

    Here's the thing . .if anybody wants our salary, our benefits, our vacation plan, our pension . . . They are welcome to join the service. If people are not willing to join the service, then at least appreciate those who do. We make the sacrifice because we love kids and we love our country.

    Notice I never once in this thread have complained about my salary. I've simply stated facts about my choices. I will continue to make choices. I will get by on my last 175 dollars until Sept 30. My complaint is with the seemingly bitter people who dismiss the difficult choice we make, based on narrow reporting about problems in the profession. It just doesn't help solve the problem by dismissing it.
    Are you kidding, rather than admit Summer's off are a perk, you're going to twist it to make Hawks look jealous... for stating the obvious!!!

    Teachers here, for every extracurricular after school coaching or enrichment or anything, they get paid extra. They go on a field trip that takes longer than the school day? Extra pay.

    Your friend retiring from NYC? W/ a pension? Big bucks right there. Sorry about the health issues but those are facts. Who gets pensions any more? She is very lucky. That's teachers unions. And you did say you made close to 100k, while specifying your contract allows you to leave at 2:40 most days.
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 6,478

    pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    ^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.

    are you trying to deny that schools are closed in the summers?
    Not sure about where you live but here in Colorado a lot of schools are open for summer programs, summer school, administration issues, etc.

    Every teacher I know works during the summer.....
    Summer school
    Summer camps
    Private tutoring
    Etc
    they don't have to work those and get paid extra for those things. it is not part of their regular pay, at least in my area and for every teacher i know that is the case.
    Pjhawks, I just have to get it out there on the table. Whenever I hear people stuck on the summer issue, it always seems to me to come from a place of bitter jealousy.

    Same thing with the pension. I just got back from a visit to a cousin who retired in June from the NYC school system, riddled with stress-related health problems. She recounted several bitter conversations she had with near strangers about her pension. This is a woman who at retirement, was honored by the local NAACP chapter as Music Educator of the Year because of how she helped her poor community. Thousands if her students were invited regularly to sing the Star Spangled Banner at Yankee games. She got instruments into the hands of thousands of kids who would never touch one if it hadn't been for her. They were all bawling their eyes out when they sang at her retirement party. She served our nation for so many years, sacrificed her health along the way, and she will not be floating on a yacht with her retirement pension. She'll be holed up in a small house in western PA getting her health back that teaching took from her.

    Here's the thing . .if anybody wants our salary, our benefits, our vacation plan, our pension . . . They are welcome to join the service. If people are not willing to join the service, then at least appreciate those who do. We make the sacrifice because we love kids and we love our country.

    Notice I never once in this thread have complained about my salary. I've simply stated facts about my choices. I will continue to make choices. I will get by on my last 175 dollars until Sept 30. My complaint is with the seemingly bitter people who dismiss the difficult choice we make, based on narrow reporting about problems in the profession. It just doesn't help solve the problem by dismissing it.
    A+
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,602

    pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    ^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.

    are you trying to deny that schools are closed in the summers?
    Not sure about where you live but here in Colorado a lot of schools are open for summer programs, summer school, administration issues, etc.

    Every teacher I know works during the summer.....
    Summer school
    Summer camps
    Private tutoring
    Etc
    they don't have to work those and get paid extra for those things. it is not part of their regular pay, at least in my area and for every teacher i know that is the case.
    Pjhawks, I just have to get it out there on the table. Whenever I hear people stuck on the summer issue, it always seems to me to come from a place of bitter jealousy.

    Same thing with the pension. I just got back from a visit to a cousin who retired in June from the NYC school system, riddled with stress-related health problems. She recounted several bitter conversations she had with near strangers about her pension. This is a woman who at retirement, was honored by the local NAACP chapter as Music Educator of the Year because of how she helped her poor community. Thousands if her students were invited regularly to sing the Star Spangled Banner at Yankee games. She got instruments into the hands of thousands of kids who would never touch one if it hadn't been for her. They were all bawling their eyes out when they sang at her retirement party. She served our nation for so many years, sacrificed her health along the way, and she will not be floating on a yacht with her retirement pension. She'll be holed up in a small house in western PA getting her health back that teaching took from her.

    Here's the thing . .if anybody wants our salary, our benefits, our vacation plan, our pension . . . They are welcome to join the service. If people are not willing to join the service, then at least appreciate those who do. We make the sacrifice because we love kids and we love our country.

    Notice I never once in this thread have complained about my salary. I've simply stated facts about my choices. I will continue to make choices. I will get by on my last 175 dollars until Sept 30. My complaint is with the seemingly bitter people who dismiss the difficult choice we make, based on narrow reporting about problems in the profession. It just doesn't help solve the problem by dismissing it.
    how is stating a fact somehow jealously and/or not appreciating your service? teachers (at least in my area of the US) work 50-70 less days per year than other professionals per their regular pay. #fact. that is not debatable. why do you and most teachers get so defensive and offended when these facts are presented? it's not a put down. when talking about teachers salaries vs. other professionals you have to talk about the number of days worked. it's not complicated but man sure seems to fire up teachers when you bring it up. it has nothing to do with disrespecting your profession or commitment to your job. it's just facts.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,328

    Oh brother. This is ridiculous. Union members have *individual* negotiating power? Huh?

    Free said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

    We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

    Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

    P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

    Death to the little red letters! :lol:
    Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
    yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
    It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.

    Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.
    That's not true, at least in my state. Each individual has negotiating power when it's contract renewal time. You also said you get paid close to 100k, so... You would get paid much more if you didn't have all that time off?
    I have never said I get paid close to 100 grand. I'm not sure where you read that, but it wasn't me.
    it was me. my teacher friend gets paid just south of 100 to my knowledge. but I also believe that teachers in canada get paid a lot more than in the US.
  • brianlux said:

    Hmmm...

    Most of all?

    1. Teaching is immeasurable. You can't quantify when good teaching has occurred... you can only tell when it has or hasn't happened.

    2. The public needs to embrace its teaching force. It needs to be prepared to not only compensate teachers for their efforts, but also respect the same efforts. It needs to encourage people to enter the profession and succeed- both professionally and personally- within it.

    3. Teachers unions need to be prepared to negotiate a model of accountability into contracts. Exactly how 'accountability' might be measured... I'm not entirely sure (although I do have ideas I won't go into at this moment).

    The public would likely go along with item 2 if they knew there were legitimate steps employers could take to support and/or relieve poor performers.

    :plus_one:
    Again, no union in my state . . . And we have accountability measures in place to support and relieve poor performers.

    Thirty Bills, I think you would agree that what makes this conversation so difficult is that the nation is all over the map regarding contracts, salaries, etc. Articles about national salary averages mask gross disparities between rural/urban and suburban districts. The averages are skewed because teachers are getting younger and they get paid less. There are union states with labor protections and then there is the rest of us. Some localities fund through property taxes, others through a school tax. Each state funds its schools at a different percentage of its revenues, which affects how much a locality has available for salaries. It's a mess. It's why I can't stand getting into conversations with people about it, because the public has no idea what the problem is. They think it's about summer vacation. It's just not.

    Thank you for finally sharing with me (us?) that you are a teacher. It helps to know who we are talking to. I didn't know. Sorry.
    I thought people knew.

    When I got into the profession, I was very proud and excited. Things have changed in the last 21 years. Our province and our union have fought tooth and nail- we have been on strike three times. Both the employer and the union have done a fantastic job of discouraging good people.

    After the second strike, I began to look at exit strategies. With a mortgage and a family, the shift in mid flight would have proven to be very difficult. I had a choice to make: do the job that is required and be happy doing it regardless of circumstances... or make the difficult choice. I chose to stay.

    The last strike was brutal. I'm not going to talk about it, but it was depressing- we were out for basically two months. Our union was incompetent- they had us strike without strike pay to give us- and the government allowed us to bleed out... almost with fangs bared. Much of the public bared their fangs as well.

    I've seen really good people leave the profession. A good friend of mine consistently stands up for teaching when the bashing starts: he speaks to how hard he worked for how little he was recognized compared to his new opportunity in the private sector. He was a great math teacher- we lost a good one there.

    All the bullshit aside, I love teaching. I coach- in Canada, all high school coaching is volunteer- and am there whenever kids need me. I think today's kids are awesome and they make me smile and laugh daily. It's the adults in my life that make the job stressful. My employer is ruthless. My union is dysfunctional. Parents can be very unreasonable. And when I see some teachers do things that damage the reputation of the teaching profession... I get frustrated. I don't like it when I come to this site and see disparaging comments as well that no matter how one might try to explain whatever it is they are trying to say... it's disrespectful.

    Anyways... I've had more time than usual to spend on the forum: I'm at home with a concussion from a mountain bike fall (broke my helmet and my bike). I'm not supposed to have any screen time, but dammit... I'm combative and I couldn't ignore the teacher bashing lol!

    Cheers (and enjoy grilled cheese sandwiches and oatmeal until September 30 rolls around)!
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,040

    Oh brother. This is ridiculous. Union members have *individual* negotiating power? Huh?

    Free said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

    We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

    Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

    P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

    Death to the little red letters! :lol:
    Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
    yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
    It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.

    Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.
    That's not true, at least in my state. Each individual has negotiating power when it's contract renewal time. You also said you get paid close to 100k, so... You would get paid much more if you didn't have all that time off?
    I have never said I get paid close to 100 grand. I'm not sure where you read that, but it wasn't me.
    it was me. my teacher friend gets paid just south of 100 to my knowledge. but I also believe that teachers in canada get paid a lot more than in the US.
    Thank you.
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,040
    Free said:

    pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    ^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.

    are you trying to deny that schools are closed in the summers?
    Not sure about where you live but here in Colorado a lot of schools are open for summer programs, summer school, administration issues, etc.

    Every teacher I know works during the summer.....
    Summer school
    Summer camps
    Private tutoring
    Etc
    they don't have to work those and get paid extra for those things. it is not part of their regular pay, at least in my area and for every teacher i know that is the case.
    Pjhawks, I just have to get it out there on the table. Whenever I hear people stuck on the summer issue, it always seems to me to come from a place of bitter jealousy.

    Same thing with the pension. I just got back from a visit to a cousin who retired in June from the NYC school system, riddled with stress-related health problems. She recounted several bitter conversations she had with near strangers about her pension. This is a woman who at retirement, was honored by the local NAACP chapter as Music Educator of the Year because of how she helped her poor community. Thousands if her students were invited regularly to sing the Star Spangled Banner at Yankee games. She got instruments into the hands of thousands of kids who would never touch one if it hadn't been for her. They were all bawling their eyes out when they sang at her retirement party. She served our nation for so many years, sacrificed her health along the way, and she will not be floating on a yacht with her retirement pension. She'll be holed up in a small house in western PA getting her health back that teaching took from her.

    Here's the thing . .if anybody wants our salary, our benefits, our vacation plan, our pension . . . They are welcome to join the service. If people are not willing to join the service, then at least appreciate those who do. We make the sacrifice because we love kids and we love our country.

    Notice I never once in this thread have complained about my salary. I've simply stated facts about my choices. I will continue to make choices. I will get by on my last 175 dollars until Sept 30. My complaint is with the seemingly bitter people who dismiss the difficult choice we make, based on narrow reporting about problems in the profession. It just doesn't help solve the problem by dismissing it.
    Are you kidding, rather than admit Summer's off are a perk, you're going to twist it to make Hawks look jealous... for stating the obvious!!!

    Teachers here, for every extracurricular after school coaching or enrichment or anything, they get paid extra. They go on a field trip that takes longer than the school day? Extra pay.

    Your friend retiring from NYC? W/ a pension? Big bucks right there. Sorry about the health issues but those are facts. Who gets pensions any more? She is very lucky. That's teachers unions. And you did say you made close to 100k, while specifying your contract allows you to leave at 2:40 most days.
    My contract does not specify I get to leave at 2:40. The salary that my contract specifies is based on a per diem calculated on a 7.5 hour day. My 7.5 hour day -- per school board regulation -- runs from 7:10-2:40. I am required to be there by 7:10. I am required to stay until 2:40 to meet the terms of my contract. Anything I do beyond that is free labor.

    There are actually 7 clauses in my contract:
    1. Salary calculation based on school calendar, years in, and degrees conferred
    2. If there is not enough money in the budget, my salary can be reduced at any time.
    3. I can be reassigned or terminated at any point for any reason
    4. My principal can assign additional duties at her discretion, and I have to comply
    5. I am obligated to meet "professional duties" outside of the regulation hours without additional pay.
    6. I am not a free agent in the summer, meaning if I don't resign by June 1st, I leave "with prejudice." I don't get a recommendation, they will not release me to another school district, and I will never be rehired in my own. Basically, entrapment.
    7. The morality clause . . . Among other things, if I'm ever caught smoking pot in the privacy of my own home, I will be fired at once.

    Great contract. Gives me warm fuzzies when I sign it every year

  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,786



    Thank you.

    And thank you to those able to reasonably discuss this topic, even when somewhat heated.

    Thirty, damn. Take care of yourself and your noggin and don't overdo it.

    No children here, but (duh) was a student. My dad was well-involved with the PTA both during the time my sister and I were in school, as well as far after. He felt that need and responsibility so much that for years after retiring, he tutored students in English and ESL until cancer rendered him unable to continue.

    We do what we can with what we have, till we can't. Seems simple, but maybe not so much when in the midst of it.

  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,602

    Free said:

    pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    ^^^ Yeah, I don't know where this summer vacation thing comes from though I'm sure some teachers, in some districts actually take the summer and go play tennis and loll on some Caribbean Island. Good for them, I guess. But what do I know? The idea of summer vacation is but a faded memory of long ago.

    are you trying to deny that schools are closed in the summers?
    Not sure about where you live but here in Colorado a lot of schools are open for summer programs, summer school, administration issues, etc.

    Every teacher I know works during the summer.....
    Summer school
    Summer camps
    Private tutoring
    Etc
    they don't have to work those and get paid extra for those things. it is not part of their regular pay, at least in my area and for every teacher i know that is the case.
    Pjhawks, I just have to get it out there on the table. Whenever I hear people stuck on the summer issue, it always seems to me to come from a place of bitter jealousy.

    Same thing with the pension. I just got back from a visit to a cousin who retired in June from the NYC school system, riddled with stress-related health problems. She recounted several bitter conversations she had with near strangers about her pension. This is a woman who at retirement, was honored by the local NAACP chapter as Music Educator of the Year because of how she helped her poor community. Thousands if her students were invited regularly to sing the Star Spangled Banner at Yankee games. She got instruments into the hands of thousands of kids who would never touch one if it hadn't been for her. They were all bawling their eyes out when they sang at her retirement party. She served our nation for so many years, sacrificed her health along the way, and she will not be floating on a yacht with her retirement pension. She'll be holed up in a small house in western PA getting her health back that teaching took from her.

    Here's the thing . .if anybody wants our salary, our benefits, our vacation plan, our pension . . . They are welcome to join the service. If people are not willing to join the service, then at least appreciate those who do. We make the sacrifice because we love kids and we love our country.

    Notice I never once in this thread have complained about my salary. I've simply stated facts about my choices. I will continue to make choices. I will get by on my last 175 dollars until Sept 30. My complaint is with the seemingly bitter people who dismiss the difficult choice we make, based on narrow reporting about problems in the profession. It just doesn't help solve the problem by dismissing it.
    Are you kidding, rather than admit Summer's off are a perk, you're going to twist it to make Hawks look jealous... for stating the obvious!!!

    Teachers here, for every extracurricular after school coaching or enrichment or anything, they get paid extra. They go on a field trip that takes longer than the school day? Extra pay.

    Your friend retiring from NYC? W/ a pension? Big bucks right there. Sorry about the health issues but those are facts. Who gets pensions any more? She is very lucky. That's teachers unions. And you did say you made close to 100k, while specifying your contract allows you to leave at 2:40 most days.
    My contract does not specify I get to leave at 2:40. The salary that my contract specifies is based on a per diem calculated on a 7.5 hour day. My 7.5 hour day -- per school board regulation -- runs from 7:10-2:40. I am required to be there by 7:10. I am required to stay until 2:40 to meet the terms of my contract. Anything I do beyond that is free labor.

    There are actually 7 clauses in my contract:
    1. Salary calculation based on school calendar, years in, and degrees conferred
    2. If there is not enough money in the budget, my salary can be reduced at any time.
    3. I can be reassigned or terminated at any point for any reason
    4. My principal can assign additional duties at her discretion, and I have to comply
    5. I am obligated to meet "professional duties" outside of the regulation hours without additional pay.
    6. I am not a free agent in the summer, meaning if I don't resign by June 1st, I leave "with prejudice." I don't get a recommendation, they will not release me to another school district, and I will never be rehired in my own. Basically, entrapment.
    7. The morality clause . . . Among other things, if I'm ever caught smoking pot in the privacy of my own home, I will be fired at once.

    Great contract. Gives me warm fuzzies when I sign it every year

    only #6 is any different than any other full time salaried job in america
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,040
    For the record as well, I don't "admit Summer's are a perk" (Free ^^^) because they are not. How is an unpaid vacation a perk? It's a forced layoff!!

    If I were queen of the world, there would be no summer vacation. They're bad for kids and they're a pain in the ass for working parents. All the research shows that poor, minority students lose on average 1/3 of what they gain over a school year. We should be extending the number of days kids are in school.

    But you know why we never will? Because it would mean we'd have to pay teachers more, and that will never happen. People hate paying us for our days as it is.

    I swear, if the profession were 80% male, we would not be having this discussion. Men would never put up with this shit.
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,786
    pjhawks said:



    only #6 is any different than any other full time salaried job in america

    I think Nos. 5 and 7 are too (depending on state, of course).

    And for the love of Pete, how smoking weed - on your own time, in your own space - can be considered an issue of morality...that is just fucked up.

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,551
    edited August 2016
    I figure that being with 30+ kids all day long 5 days a week plus bringing work home much of the time is a LOT more challenging and mentally draining than most other jobs where you work those extra 50 - 70 days a year. I don't think the extra days mean there should be more pay at all. The job of teaching demands those days off, and I think that's a shitty argument against higher pay for teachers, who generally spend more time with your kids that you do (x30) and have a direct impact on their well-being in just about every aspect of their lives. I can't believe anyone, especially any parent, would argue that teachers don't deserve a high salary considering the immense responsibility and pressure that they have in society. Every bit as important as doctors.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,521
    Joining this conversation a little late. I have been in education in a few different areas. First San Diego then South Central LA, and now Colorado.
    I can agree that the average teacher contract is about 190 days. Just comparing to other public services (since teaching is a public service and paid by the government), they too get many holidays and as much as 4 weeks vacation and sick leave per year. Summers off is a perk, what's wrong with that? Its a perk because in every school I've worked it is expected to put in 9-10 hours a day on a regular basis, sometimes as many as 12-15 hours in a single day (typically about once a month we'll pull a 15 hour day for conferences, open house, etc). I have never received overtime pay in 10 years of teaching. Very few teacher can put in an 8-hour work day and complete all of the tasks expected of them (lesson planning, grading, calling parents, endless meetings, etc). The teachers who can accomplish that in 8 hours have a special name, we call them P.E. teachers (just kidding). I know lots of people in other areas of public service and all get compensated very well for every minute over 8 hours that they work. So we are essentially trading 8 hour work days for 10 hour works days and getting the summer off in return, and it pretty much evens out. But then as pointed out multiple times, our pay only reflects that of someone who actually only works 9 months of the year. On top of our 190 contract days many teachers are forced to attend mutli-day or week conferences in the summer without pay. Some teachers at my current school are enrolled in 2 weeks of conferences in the summer.

    It was mentioned earlier that better pay doesn't make better teachers. Maybe true, but in hard to fill subjects (math and science) the teacher hired is often the only one who applied. Imagine if we paid a decent wage and got to choose from a list of qualified candidates? Especially in those subject areas where most students struggle. Instead the trend is qualified people are taking much higher paying jobs elsewhere. If you're just out of school with a science degree and in debt, you can work 8 hours a day with holidays and 4 weeks off a year and make triple what a teacher makes (and In a few years a lot more) who works 10 hours a day and gets 2 months off in the summer.
    Wouldn't you want the people in charge of educating your children making a decent wage and getting the best?
    I mentioned where I worked because teachers are sometimes the first to blame. In some schools the majority of students speak little or no English, are behind several years in multiple subjects, sometimes even being placed in high school after not attending school for several years, and then the teachers get blamed for low test scores in those schools.

    Before you point out the timing of this post as proof there must be nothing to do, I just came from the doctor with stitches in my head.
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    Still no mention of common core (Canadians you are exempt, unless you know about it).
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,551
    Using common core to judge teacher performance is a terrible and unfair practice.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    PJ_Soul said:

    Using common core to judge teacher performance is a terrible and unfair practice.

    I already said that, I find it interesting that we're talking about teaching and education and I'm the only one bringing up Common core. The teachers are not.
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    And yeah, individually bargained contracts. And since you say, what dreams, you have no Union where you are yet you have a contract about how long you work and that you can't work past 240 in the afternoon, etc. who's contract is it then.

  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,602
    mace1229 said:

    Joining this conversation a little late. I have been in education in a few different areas. First San Diego then South Central LA, and now Colorado.
    I can agree that the average teacher contract is about 190 days. Just comparing to other public services (since teaching is a public service and paid by the government), they too get many holidays and as much as 4 weeks vacation and sick leave per year. Summers off is a perk, what's wrong with that? Its a perk because in every school I've worked it is expected to put in 9-10 hours a day on a regular basis, sometimes as many as 12-15 hours in a single day (typically about once a month we'll pull a 15 hour day for conferences, open house, etc). I have never received overtime pay in 10 years of teaching. Very few teacher can put in an 8-hour work day and complete all of the tasks expected of them (lesson planning, grading, calling parents, endless meetings, etc). The teachers who can accomplish that in 8 hours have a special name, we call them P.E. teachers (just kidding). I know lots of people in other areas of public service and all get compensated very well for every minute over 8 hours that they work. So we are essentially trading 8 hour work days for 10 hour works days and getting the summer off in return, and it pretty much evens out. But then as pointed out multiple times, our pay only reflects that of someone who actually only works 9 months of the year. On top of our 190 contract days many teachers are forced to attend mutli-day or week conferences in the summer without pay. Some teachers at my current school are enrolled in 2 weeks of conferences in the summer.

    It was mentioned earlier that better pay doesn't make better teachers. Maybe true, but in hard to fill subjects (math and science) the teacher hired is often the only one who applied. Imagine if we paid a decent wage and got to choose from a list of qualified candidates? Especially in those subject areas where most students struggle. Instead the trend is qualified people are taking much higher paying jobs elsewhere. If you're just out of school with a science degree and in debt, you can work 8 hours a day with holidays and 4 weeks off a year and make triple what a teacher makes (and In a few years a lot more) who works 10 hours a day and gets 2 months off in the summer.
    Wouldn't you want the people in charge of educating your children making a decent wage and getting the best?
    I mentioned where I worked because teachers are sometimes the first to blame. In some schools the majority of students speak little or no English, are behind several years in multiple subjects, sometimes even being placed in high school after not attending school for several years, and then the teachers get blamed for low test scores in those schools.

    Before you point out the timing of this post as proof there must be nothing to do, I just came from the doctor with stitches in my head.

    so are you willing to have your local taxes raised by 2-3% to pay these additional salaries?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,551
    Free said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Using common core to judge teacher performance is a terrible and unfair practice.

    I already said that, I find it interesting that we're talking about teaching and education and I'm the only one bringing up Common core. The teachers are not.
    Well, I guess you win the thread then. :neutral:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    edited August 2016

    For the record as well, I don't "admit Summer's are a perk" (Free ^^^) because they are not. How is an unpaid vacation a perk? It's a forced layoff!!

    If I were queen of the world, there would be no summer vacation. They're bad for kids and they're a pain in the ass for working parents. All the research shows that poor, minority students lose on average 1/3 of what they gain over a school year. We should be extending the number of days kids are in school.

    But you know why we never will? Because it would mean we'd have to pay teachers more, and that will never happen. People hate paying us for our days as it is.

    I swear, if the profession were 80% male, we would not be having this discussion. Men would never put up with this shit.

    Then you admit it's a part-time job. Just saying. In my state w/ the 2nd highest paid teachers, getting their pay and leisure is quite the luxury.

    I agree that kids don't need 2 1/2 months off. My daughter regresses after 2 weeks and the long break does no student good.
    http://www.onlinecollege.org/2012/05/15/15-critical-facts-everyone-should-know-about-summer-learning-loss/
    Post edited by Free on
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,551
    Summer vacations are not bad for kids.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    They are for their learning.
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