Something about teacher's pay...

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,272
    edited August 2016

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

    We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

    Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

    P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

    Death to the little red letters! :lol:
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 6,062

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    A+
  • brianlux said:

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

    We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

    Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

    P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

    Death to the little red letters! :lol:
    Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,223

    brianlux said:

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

    We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

    Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

    P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

    Death to the little red letters! :lol:
    Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
    yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,423

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    Rock on! Most students - I wish, many parents too - know who gives a shit about what they're doing, and how much / if they care. My (handful of) favorite teachers were like you.
  • pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

    We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

    Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

    P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

    Death to the little red letters! :lol:
    Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
    yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
    It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.

    Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,157
    edited August 2016
    Free said:

    Free said:



    Winnipeg guy here.

    teacher friend of mine at the cottage complained on Sunday about "having to go back to work in 2 weeks for a meeting". I said "um, I have to go to work TOMORROW". She sheepishly said "right, guess I shouldn't complain". I hear her bitch and complain about how much time she puts in after hours and whatnot (she's the minority out of teachers I know in that respect). But, she gets 12 weeks off per year. A very good salary (just south of 100K). Encouraged to take as many sick days as possible so the union doesn't lose them in their next contract negotiation and so part time/on-call teachers get a piece of the pie.

    HOWEVER, she is stuck between a rock and a hard place with regards to entitled parents, shitty kids (see entitled parents), and an administration that caters to those parents, all the while knowing she's pushing kids through the system who aren't necessarily prepared to move on. the best she can do is the best she can do. the system is broken. all she can hope for is a good class that isn't overstuffed.

    I get the feeling most teachers are stressed the fuck out, and the summer off is a small bonus. But once September hits.......

    Winnipeg guy here.

    teacher friend of mine at the cottage complained on Sunday about "having to go back to work in 2 weeks for a meeting". I said "um, I have to go to work TOMORROW". She sheepishly said "right, guess I shouldn't complain". I hear her bitch and complain about how much time she puts in after hours and whatnot (she's the minority out of teachers I know in that respect). But, she gets 12 weeks off per year. A very good salary (just south of 100K). Encouraged to take as many sick days as possible so the union doesn't lose them in their next contract negotiation and so part time/on-call teachers get a piece of the pie.

    HOWEVER, she is stuck between a rock and a hard place with regards to entitled parents, shitty kids (see entitled parents), and an administration that caters to those parents, all the while knowing she's pushing kids through the system who aren't necessarily prepared to move on. the best she can do is the best she can do. the system is broken. all she can hope for is a good class that isn't overstuffed.

    I get the feeling most teachers are stressed the fuck out, and the summer off is a small bonus. But once September hits.......

    So dealing with a few entitled parents and kids makes up for her high paying part-time job? We're all stressed out from our jobs, perhaps we all get 12 weeks vacation a year. And TENURE!

    Why is it some teachers are spoiled rotten and others don't get fair pay? Maybe consider what state they teach in.
    pretty sure my post highlighted both the pros and cons of teaching. I don't think elementary school or high school teachers have tenure. at least not in canada. I thought that was just college professors.

    part time job? they are at the school for 7 hours minimum. not to mention anything they do before or after class, and from home. and that also doesn't include standing around the coffee machine chatting about your weekend or browsing the pearl jam fan forum.

    I'm not stressed out from my job. my job is very low stress. however, my salary shows it. I can't imagine dealing with parents nowadays, especially with email. teachers are essentially always accessible now.

    if you think teaching is such a cakewalk, why didn't you choose it for a career?
    Yeah, elementary and high school teachers get tenure here. One teacher got tenure after one year in my district where the going rate is five years minimum. But it is up to the school board to approve each individual. Part-time as in part of the year. Govt/national holidays, snow days (up to 5), school vacations, summer vacation all included. The teachers I work w/ get an hour every school day devoted to "planning time" alone.
    why the quotes around planning time? you think they spend it playing xbox? my wife is a childcare director, and she gives her staff planning time every chance she can. and it is invaluable. she runs one of, if not the, best child care places in the city.
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,157
    Free said:

    this? "if you think teaching is such a cakewalk, why didn't you choose it for a career?"

    Does anyone choose their career by what is "easiest"? That's not following one's path. Maybe some people would, but not me. If you asked my younger sister this question, she probably would say yes. She loves her Summer's off as well as her long Christmas break and rubs it in to the rest of us often.

    well if it's so easy and so high paying, I would think a lot of people would. very few people choose their job based on "their path". Actually, I think a lot of people have, and that's why they last no more than 5 years in the job. without the passion for teaching, the stress and the summers off simply aren't worth it.

    the friend I referenced earlier is always stressed the hell out. sick constantly, and in the summer she is a VERY healthy person. another teacher I know, incredibly easy going guy, every year he has lost about 30-40 pounds from stress alone by the time canadian thanksgiving hits.
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,899
    You know what? Dealing with children is THE most stressful 'job' in the world. Parents drop their little darlings off at the school gate entrusting them to people they don't necessarily know as well as they should. For a big chunk of the waking day teachers are expected to teach, nurture, discipline, encourage, empower, etc., other people's kids. This is a HUGE responsibility... And when little johnny fails then the finger is pointed at the teacher. I'm not sure what 'layman' think a teacher does but I am in no doubt that it is way more than little johnny's parents think it is.

    I used to think teachers had it easy... That is until I started studying education. It was then I realised a teachers day does not start at the morning bell, nor does it end at the home time bell. There is lesson planning, dealing with curriculum expectation, God damn stupid bureaucratic meetings, testing, extra curricular activities, the acquisition of extra professional accreditation etc., not to mention the massive responsibility of being in the presence of, and being responsible for the wellbeing of other people's children. Parents(and I am one) have such a high expectation of teachers that it borders on ridiculous and in doing so sometimes forget their own responsibility. Unfortunately I realised I do not have what it takes to be the teacher I wanted to be... If it was as easy as waltzing into the classroom and expounding knowledge then I'd be a friggin wizard... But it takes more than that to be a successful teacher... And it fascinates me that teachers are taken for granted as much as they are.

    And to all those people who question the value of teachers I say fuck you cause what you're really doing is questioning the value of your little darlings and their education.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,223
    edited August 2016

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

    We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

    Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

    P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

    Death to the little red letters! :lol:
    Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
    yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
    It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.

    Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.
    ok so we agree. you get paid less because you work less. not sure why we needed 4 pages to determine what i said on page 1 was correct.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,157

    Critics of teachers simply fail to acknowledge the challenges of the job, the amount of work necessary to do a good job, and the lack of respect the public and employer offer the profession.

    In my province, the teaching population is now over 80% women. Most men are choosing trades and various other professions where they make much more money and don't deal with the bullshit teachers do on a daily basis. This isn't fantastic. We need strong male teachers as much as we need strong female teachers.

    The job is not 8-3. The prep work and meetings that occur outside of that time frame is endless and for the most part, teachers are willing to do that unrecognized work; however, they become very agitated and feel very disrespected when fools ignore the obvious efforts outside of class time. Even lunch hours and breaks are typically spent with kids that need help or just need a friendly voice by the majority of teachers I work with.

    The profession is in the tank. I think the smoking gun supporting such a statement is the fact that the profession is no longer attractive to many potentially great teachers. There's a reason that 50% of teachers quit within 5 years of teaching. Even people going through 5-6 years of university to enter the profession don't fully understand what the job entails- let alone the bar stool critic that thinks he knows everything because of a negative experience he had in grade 5.

    What Dreams... I feel your pain- I experience it as well- but do better for your students. No kid should have to wait a month to get their paper back. You're a well-worded person and from the sounds of it a natural teacher- choose to be excellent regardless of how ignorant others can be towards your efforts.

    I don't think your final paragraph is fair. what is important is the time spent with the kids. I recall not getting papers back for a very long time in high school sometimes, and now I get it. why should she be expected to work for free?
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,899
    edited August 2016
    pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

    We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

    Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

    P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

    Death to the little red letters! :lol:
    Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
    yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
    It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.

    Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.
    ok so we agree. you get paid less because you work less. not sure why we needed 4 pages to determine what i said on page 1 was correct.
    RE: professional basketballers. Do you seriously think someone who is 'paid to amuse the masses' for around 40 mins a pop is worth more than someone who is responsible for educating your children????
    Post edited by catefrances on
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle

    Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
    yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
    It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.

    Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.
    ok so we agree. you get paid less because you work less. not sure why we needed 4 pages to determine what i said on page 1 was correct.
    Are you ever going to address the question I posed to you?

    I asked you what professionals you were comparing teachers to. The article made reference to a very general and vague 'college graduate' for a comparative. Nothing was specified. There is a wide spectrum of college graduates.

    And I challenged your assertion that all other college graduates work a 'minimum' of 50 more days per year. This is your speculation used to dismiss the original premise.

    We all make career choices so the following is really moot... however, I also challenged the work days and what 'work' might actually be (is entertaining clients on the golf course comparable to handling 30 kids in a classroom?).
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJHawks...

    The above post was directed to you in response to the post directly above it.

    The quoting feature messed up.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,223

    pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    brianlux said:

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

    We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

    Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

    P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

    Death to the little red letters! :lol:
    Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
    yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.
    It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.

    Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.
    ok so we agree. you get paid less because you work less. not sure why we needed 4 pages to determine what i said on page 1 was correct.
    RE: professional basketballers. Do you seriously think someone who is 'paid to amuse the masses' for around 40 mins a pop is worth more than someone who is responsible for educating your children????
    i never said anything about professional athletes. read the original article from the OP where it compares teacher salaries vs. other professionals with college degrees. that's all i've been referring to.
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,223

    PJHawks...

    The above post was directed to you in response to the post directly above it.

    The quoting feature messed up.

    i was using the general 'other professionals' that the original article referred to.

    are you really debating that teachers don't work less days? as i mentioned a few pages ago teachers in my local school district get up to 15 extra days off DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR than regular office professionals. add in summer days and you are looking at closer the 50 days which i conservatively estimated. it is probably closer to 60 to 70 less days teachers work than regular office professionals. i can't believe people are actually disputing this.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,157
    pjhawks said:

    PJHawks...

    The above post was directed to you in response to the post directly above it.

    The quoting feature messed up.

    i was using the general 'other professionals' that the original article referred to.

    are you really debating that teachers don't work less days? as i mentioned a few pages ago teachers in my local school district get up to 15 extra days off DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR than regular office professionals. add in summer days and you are looking at closer the 50 days which i conservatively estimated. it is probably closer to 60 to 70 less days teachers work than regular office professionals. i can't believe people are actually disputing this.
    I don't think anyone is disputing that they get summers, christmas, and spring break off. what we are disputing is your assertion that they work less hours during that time. I don't know anyone in my office that works 40-50 hours per week. 200 employees, most of which don't even put in the hours they get paid for. Myself included (ever notice I'm-and many others-only on this website during the day? :lol: ).

    plus, the work they do, arguably, is one of the most important professions in existence. I think it's terrible that this profession, not to mention police officers, in the US, both get paid so little. in Canada, both professions get paid very well, and for good reason.
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • Critics of teachers simply fail to acknowledge the challenges of the job, the amount of work necessary to do a good job, and the lack of respect the public and employer offer the profession.

    In my province, the teaching population is now over 80% women. Most men are choosing trades and various other professions where they make much more money and don't deal with the bullshit teachers do on a daily basis. This isn't fantastic. We need strong male teachers as much as we need strong female teachers.

    The job is not 8-3. The prep work and meetings that occur outside of that time frame is endless and for the most part, teachers are willing to do that unrecognized work; however, they become very agitated and feel very disrespected when fools ignore the obvious efforts outside of class time. Even lunch hours and breaks are typically spent with kids that need help or just need a friendly voice by the majority of teachers I work with.

    The profession is in the tank. I think the smoking gun supporting such a statement is the fact that the profession is no longer attractive to many potentially great teachers. There's a reason that 50% of teachers quit within 5 years of teaching. Even people going through 5-6 years of university to enter the profession don't fully understand what the job entails- let alone the bar stool critic that thinks he knows everything because of a negative experience he had in grade 5.

    What Dreams... I feel your pain- I experience it as well- but do better for your students. No kid should have to wait a month to get their paper back. You're a well-worded person and from the sounds of it a natural teacher- choose to be excellent regardless of how ignorant others can be towards your efforts.

    I don't think your final paragraph is fair. what is important is the time spent with the kids. I recall not getting papers back for a very long time in high school sometimes, and now I get it. why should she be expected to work for free?
    She shouldn't be expected to work for free. This is the entire point of the thread. I think the teaching profession gets abused and I think she, obviously, is tired of being abused.

    I have no doubt she makes strong connections wth her kids and is a good teacher... I just think se has allowed people like Free to get to her. You have to have thick skin as a teacher and you have to bite the bullet sometimes.

    Her students need good, timely feedback with regards to their progress. This is a critical aspect of the learning process. If they write a paper and there are flaws and suggestions within it that need to be addressed... they find out a month later. If your child does work and has no idea how they've done until after they have forgotten about it... would this please you?

    Eventually, even people that have no idea will have an idea. The shortages are looming: already, parents are serving as substitutes in some places and part time jobs stay vacant.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,157

    Critics of teachers simply fail to acknowledge the challenges of the job, the amount of work necessary to do a good job, and the lack of respect the public and employer offer the profession.

    In my province, the teaching population is now over 80% women. Most men are choosing trades and various other professions where they make much more money and don't deal with the bullshit teachers do on a daily basis. This isn't fantastic. We need strong male teachers as much as we need strong female teachers.

    The job is not 8-3. The prep work and meetings that occur outside of that time frame is endless and for the most part, teachers are willing to do that unrecognized work; however, they become very agitated and feel very disrespected when fools ignore the obvious efforts outside of class time. Even lunch hours and breaks are typically spent with kids that need help or just need a friendly voice by the majority of teachers I work with.

    The profession is in the tank. I think the smoking gun supporting such a statement is the fact that the profession is no longer attractive to many potentially great teachers. There's a reason that 50% of teachers quit within 5 years of teaching. Even people going through 5-6 years of university to enter the profession don't fully understand what the job entails- let alone the bar stool critic that thinks he knows everything because of a negative experience he had in grade 5.

    What Dreams... I feel your pain- I experience it as well- but do better for your students. No kid should have to wait a month to get their paper back. You're a well-worded person and from the sounds of it a natural teacher- choose to be excellent regardless of how ignorant others can be towards your efforts.

    I don't think your final paragraph is fair. what is important is the time spent with the kids. I recall not getting papers back for a very long time in high school sometimes, and now I get it. why should she be expected to work for free?
    She shouldn't be expected to work for free. This is the entire point of the thread. I think the teaching profession gets abused and I think she, obviously, is tired of being abused.

    I have no doubt she makes strong connections wth her kids and is a good teacher... I just think se has allowed people like Free to get to her. You have to have thick skin as a teacher and you have to bite the bullet sometimes.

    Her students need good, timely feedback with regards to their progress. This is a critical aspect of the learning process. If they write a paper and there are flaws and suggestions within it that need to be addressed... they find out a month later. If your child does work and has no idea how they've done until after they have forgotten about it... would this please you?

    Eventually, even people that have no idea will have an idea. The shortages are looming: already, parents are serving as substitutes in some places and part time jobs stay vacant.
    not necessarily, but in the big picture, I would assume that whatdreams would be able to critically assess if someone needs some timely direction and would give it if necessary.

    I don't think it's up to her to do better for her students; the system needs to do better for her so she can pay that forward.
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • pjhawks said:

    PJHawks...

    The above post was directed to you in response to the post directly above it.

    The quoting feature messed up.

    i was using the general 'other professionals' that the original article referred to.

    are you really debating that teachers don't work less days? as i mentioned a few pages ago teachers in my local school district get up to 15 extra days off DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR than regular office professionals. add in summer days and you are looking at closer the 50 days which i conservatively estimated. it is probably closer to 60 to 70 less days teachers work than regular office professionals. i can't believe people are actually disputing this.
    You're still dodging the question.

    Do I have to repeat it, man? The article was very vague. It offered nothing specific, yet here you are speculating about work days and pay structures.

    What professions are you comparing teaching to?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,223

    pjhawks said:

    PJHawks...

    The above post was directed to you in response to the post directly above it.

    The quoting feature messed up.

    i was using the general 'other professionals' that the original article referred to.

    are you really debating that teachers don't work less days? as i mentioned a few pages ago teachers in my local school district get up to 15 extra days off DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR than regular office professionals. add in summer days and you are looking at closer the 50 days which i conservatively estimated. it is probably closer to 60 to 70 less days teachers work than regular office professionals. i can't believe people are actually disputing this.
    I don't think anyone is disputing that they get summers, christmas, and spring break off. what we are disputing is your assertion that they work less hours during that time. I don't know anyone in my office that works 40-50 hours per week. 200 employees, most of which don't even put in the hours they get paid for. Myself included (ever notice I'm-and many others-only on this website during the day? :lol: ).

    plus, the work they do, arguably, is one of the most important professions in existence. I think it's terrible that this profession, not to mention police officers, in the US, both get paid so little. in Canada, both professions get paid very well, and for good reason.
    i have never once said they work less during a normal work day...just that they work less days overalll. for about the 10th time, the original article stated they get paid 77% of what other professionals get paid. with all those days off they work about...drumroll please...about 77% of the time that other professionals work thus making their pay about the same as other professionals.

    you also have to factor in pensions with their pay. so yes they make less now but if you add in the amount they make off that job after retirement it gets them a lot closer to what regular professionals get despite 50-70 less days per year.
  • Critics of teachers simply fail to acknowledge the challenges of the job, the amount of work necessary to do a good job, and the lack of respect the public and employer offer the profession.

    In my province, the teaching population is now over 80% women. Most men are choosing trades and various other professions where they make much more money and don't deal with the bullshit teachers do on a daily basis. This isn't fantastic. We need strong male teachers as much as we need strong female teachers.

    The job is not 8-3. The prep work and meetings that occur outside of that time frame is endless and for the most part, teachers are willing to do that unrecognized work; however, they become very agitated and feel very disrespected when fools ignore the obvious efforts outside of class time. Even lunch hours and breaks are typically spent with kids that need help or just need a friendly voice by the majority of teachers I work with.

    The profession is in the tank. I think the smoking gun supporting such a statement is the fact that the profession is no longer attractive to many potentially great teachers. There's a reason that 50% of teachers quit within 5 years of teaching. Even people going through 5-6 years of university to enter the profession don't fully understand what the job entails- let alone the bar stool critic that thinks he knows everything because of a negative experience he had in grade 5.

    What Dreams... I feel your pain- I experience it as well- but do better for your students. No kid should have to wait a month to get their paper back. You're a well-worded person and from the sounds of it a natural teacher- choose to be excellent regardless of how ignorant others can be towards your efforts.

    I don't think your final paragraph is fair. what is important is the time spent with the kids. I recall not getting papers back for a very long time in high school sometimes, and now I get it. why should she be expected to work for free?
    She shouldn't be expected to work for free. This is the entire point of the thread. I think the teaching profession gets abused and I think she, obviously, is tired of being abused.

    I have no doubt she makes strong connections wth her kids and is a good teacher... I just think se has allowed people like Free to get to her. You have to have thick skin as a teacher and you have to bite the bullet sometimes.

    Her students need good, timely feedback with regards to their progress. This is a critical aspect of the learning process. If they write a paper and there are flaws and suggestions within it that need to be addressed... they find out a month later. If your child does work and has no idea how they've done until after they have forgotten about it... would this please you?

    Eventually, even people that have no idea will have an idea. The shortages are looming: already, parents are serving as substitutes in some places and part time jobs stay vacant.
    not necessarily, but in the big picture, I would assume that whatdreams would be able to critically assess if someone needs some timely direction and would give it if necessary.

    I don't think it's up to her to do better for her students; the system needs to do better for her so she can pay that forward.
    Both need to happen.

    I also feel What Dreams does exactly what you've said- offer that timely help when it is needed- despite what she initially wrote.

    I'm on her side, Hugh. Fully. Encouraging her to be her best despite the negativity she experiences was not meant to be disparaging if it came out that way.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJHawks...

    The above post was directed to you in response to the post directly above it.

    The quoting feature messed up.

    i was using the general 'other professionals' that the original article referred to.

    are you really debating that teachers don't work less days? as i mentioned a few pages ago teachers in my local school district get up to 15 extra days off DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR than regular office professionals. add in summer days and you are looking at closer the 50 days which i conservatively estimated. it is probably closer to 60 to 70 less days teachers work than regular office professionals. i can't believe people are actually disputing this.
    I don't think anyone is disputing that they get summers, christmas, and spring break off. what we are disputing is your assertion that they work less hours during that time. I don't know anyone in my office that works 40-50 hours per week. 200 employees, most of which don't even put in the hours they get paid for. Myself included (ever notice I'm-and many others-only on this website during the day? :lol: ).

    plus, the work they do, arguably, is one of the most important professions in existence. I think it's terrible that this profession, not to mention police officers, in the US, both get paid so little. in Canada, both professions get paid very well, and for good reason.
    i have never once said they work less during a normal work day...just that they work less days overalll. for about the 10th time, the original article stated they get paid 77% of what other professionals get paid. with all those days off they work about...drumroll please...about 77% of the time that other professionals work thus making their pay about the same as other professionals.

    you also have to factor in pensions with their pay. so yes they make less now but if you add in the amount they make off that job after retirement it gets them a lot closer to what regular professionals get despite 50-70 less days per year.
    Duh.

    We all know what you're saying... speculating that is. You're 'days worked' assertion holds no water until you offer a solid example for comparison's sake.

    You've alluded to pensions and benefits now. Do other professions not offer pensions and benefits? What about expense accounts or company cars other jobs feature? Come on, man.

    What profession makes teaching the dream job you make it out to be? There
    Might be one. I'd seriously like to know.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Yo, Thirty Bills. Read long posts. I have face to face writing conferences with my students every day. Sometimes they write in a Google Doc and I provide real time feedback in the moment. Quit fucking telling me how to do my job.

    What do you do for a living? Would you like me to tell you how to do yours?
  • Yo, Thirty Bills. Read long posts. I have face to face writing conferences with my students every day. Sometimes they write in a Google Doc and I provide real time feedback in the moment. Quit fucking telling me how to do my job.

    What do you do for a living? Would you like me to tell you how to do yours?

    I teach.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 9,223
    edited August 2016

    pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJHawks...

    The above post was directed to you in response to the post directly above it.

    The quoting feature messed up.

    i was using the general 'other professionals' that the original article referred to.

    are you really debating that teachers don't work less days? as i mentioned a few pages ago teachers in my local school district get up to 15 extra days off DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR than regular office professionals. add in summer days and you are looking at closer the 50 days which i conservatively estimated. it is probably closer to 60 to 70 less days teachers work than regular office professionals. i can't believe people are actually disputing this.
    I don't think anyone is disputing that they get summers, christmas, and spring break off. what we are disputing is your assertion that they work less hours during that time. I don't know anyone in my office that works 40-50 hours per week. 200 employees, most of which don't even put in the hours they get paid for. Myself included (ever notice I'm-and many others-only on this website during the day? :lol: ).

    plus, the work they do, arguably, is one of the most important professions in existence. I think it's terrible that this profession, not to mention police officers, in the US, both get paid so little. in Canada, both professions get paid very well, and for good reason.
    i have never once said they work less during a normal work day...just that they work less days overalll. for about the 10th time, the original article stated they get paid 77% of what other professionals get paid. with all those days off they work about...drumroll please...about 77% of the time that other professionals work thus making their pay about the same as other professionals.

    you also have to factor in pensions with their pay. so yes they make less now but if you add in the amount they make off that job after retirement it gets them a lot closer to what regular professionals get despite 50-70 less days per year.
    Duh.

    We all know what you're saying... speculating that is. You're 'days worked' assertion holds no water until you offer a solid example for comparison's sake.

    You've alluded to pensions and benefits now. Do other professions not offer pensions and benefits? What about expense accounts or company cars other jobs feature? Come on, man.

    What profession makes teaching the dream job you make it out to be? There
    Might be one. I'd seriously like to know.
    how the fuck does my assertion not hold water? do you know of one other profession used by people with college degrees that gets up to 50-70 weekdays off per fucking year not including vacation days? how the fuck can people dispute this?

    edit: how did pointing out how many days teachers get off become somehow against teachers? god forbid i state facts. i'm done.
    Post edited by pjhawks on
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,157
    pjhawks said:

    pjhawks said:

    PJHawks...

    The above post was directed to you in response to the post directly above it.

    The quoting feature messed up.

    i was using the general 'other professionals' that the original article referred to.

    are you really debating that teachers don't work less days? as i mentioned a few pages ago teachers in my local school district get up to 15 extra days off DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR than regular office professionals. add in summer days and you are looking at closer the 50 days which i conservatively estimated. it is probably closer to 60 to 70 less days teachers work than regular office professionals. i can't believe people are actually disputing this.
    I don't think anyone is disputing that they get summers, christmas, and spring break off. what we are disputing is your assertion that they work less hours during that time. I don't know anyone in my office that works 40-50 hours per week. 200 employees, most of which don't even put in the hours they get paid for. Myself included (ever notice I'm-and many others-only on this website during the day? :lol: ).

    plus, the work they do, arguably, is one of the most important professions in existence. I think it's terrible that this profession, not to mention police officers, in the US, both get paid so little. in Canada, both professions get paid very well, and for good reason.
    i have never once said they work less during a normal work day...just that they work less days overalll. for about the 10th time, the original article stated they get paid 77% of what other professionals get paid. with all those days off they work about...drumroll please...about 77% of the time that other professionals work thus making their pay about the same as other professionals.

    you also have to factor in pensions with their pay. so yes they make less now but if you add in the amount they make off that job after retirement it gets them a lot closer to what regular professionals get despite 50-70 less days per year.
    but you are comparing professionals that clock in and out in 8 hours. 99% of people don't work more than the time they are paid for. 40 hours per week or less. I am saying they put in more hours in a day/week/month than your average professional. so you can't just compare days worked, when those days worked aren't equal to begin with. you need to compare hours worked, the stresses of the job, etc. your comparison is incredibly limited in scope, thus incredibly flawed.
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,272

    brianlux said:

    First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

    Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

    Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

    As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

    Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

    So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

    what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

    We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

    Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

    P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

    Death to the little red letters! :lol:
    Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.
    Yet I have disagreed with Free on certain natures of this subject more than once. Would you prefer I go further and tell my friend Free to go fuck off and die? You thank me and then (yet again) vent anger toward me when I attempt to bring some unity here. This place is such a downer at times, I begin to wonder why I bother.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • FreeFree Posts: 3,562
    edited August 2016
    All the What Dreams of the world can kiss my ass.

    Every teacher has a union contract in my state, they are required to communicate with all parents and pass all assignments back in a timely fashion. You mentioned earlier that you don't have to do any of that,.. Through a contract!

    " At 2:40, when the contracted time I get paid for is up, I leave ..,"
    Post edited by Free on
  • Here's another statistic regarding the grading. I have 130 students. At 10 minutes per essay/test/project, that's 1300 minutes or 21 hours per assignment. Times that by the 9 assignments I'm required to have in the grade book minimally each quarter (I average 12), and that's 189 hours every nine weeks. You tell me how a person sustains that over the lifetime of a career. Could you? Would you?

    Before you dare judge how any teacher finds efficiencies in her job, know what the hell you're talking about.
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