European Union vote 2016

cydonia

As you american citizens may be aware we in the uk vote on the 23rd June whether to stay or leave the EU (European Union) ., which is a partnership in Europe where countries can trade together & more likely avoid war with each other. 'A man without a vote is a man without protection' Lyndon Johnson. Societies strength and mark of compassion should be the way it treats it's most vulnerable. I've had bad experiences in my life where I needed the support of the state, and through research it found 1in 4 people have mental health problems in the UK. The Conservative party in 2015 nearly pulled out of the European court on human rights, people like myself and countless others need protection of the European court of human rights in Strasburg. The NHS is also underfunded so would suffer even more supporting the whole of the UK. Conspiracies now overwhelm the internet and I'm very cautious around some theories. Particularly how the European Union is a step towards a one world government, new world order if you like. I've read a lot and find some information interesting( Monsanto, agenda 21), but sit uncomfortably with the far right support of some threads of it, my dad pointed out that china and India for example are to powerful to agree to a one world dictatorship...so my vote is for the future and stand with the universal declaration of human rights in 1948...where it says I have freedom of thought....while this diversion is ongoing in the House of Commons, Theresa May has passed through the investigatory powers bill, basically authorised hacking, to gather communications data, yes George Orwells world isn't coming, it's here....

Annafalk

Maybe this is the beginning of the end of EU. I think it could be better to go back to how it was before EU but I'm really no expert.

eddiec

A lot of autonomy was given up by all the countries who joined the EU. It's very difficult to regulate policies when you are talking about a country with a population of 4.5 million (Ireland) versus a country of 80.5 million (Germany). However, I do think overall the EU has been effective and has definitely benefited Europe as a whole.

Spags

There is a lot of guessing from both sides about what the future holds post this vote, but I expect it will be peoples political stance which will make the decision. The right will vote to leave and the left to stay. The current right wing government may suggest that the majority will vote leave, but this is a one person one vote this time so going to be really close I expect...

The original poster should put up a poll - see where PJ fans sit on this one (perhaps with a 'don't care' option?

Anyway, I wish us all luck in the future.

dimitrispearljam

Be in european union has more plus than the opposite..need to.do the right choice...
Uk need to.stay in..people take it not serius what will happen if are out..economy standards will change..money will be lost..and worst is for british works out of uk...will not have the same benefits as the rest european citizens...same for foreigners works at uk

Spags

People I hear chatting about it on my train are generally in the 'Leave' camp - with the arguments like "you shouldn't be afraid to gamble, your boring if you don't make a change" - its pretty frightening what some people will be basing their decision on tbh. But that's democracy I guess!

lukin2006

Well I have no vote or say being Canadian ... But I'll say this, if all those lying politicians throughout the world are telling me it's a benefit to stay, I'd vote to get out asap ... If the politicians are telling you, "it's good for", what they are really saying is it's good for "the politicians and their master, the corporations.

Spags

Labour MP Jo Cox was shot and killed today. Horrible news.

newy777

It makes me feel helpless reading some of the comments here.Sigh..I know everyone are well meaning people.In my eyes there is one issue that is more important than any - DEMOCRACY. Britain will be better off without it and so would every other country, especially in the long run. If the world wants to live in peace we need to see say goodbye to the european union as it is an anti democratic organisation, pure and simple. If you were to take a moment to understand how fragile the world economy is at the moment you would understand that things aren´t going to be this way much longer. The elite and special interest groups have a vested interest in making sure it continues. See where it has landed Europe. It is a total mess out there. The Greeks especially have no future in the EU as they will always be borrowing money they can´t pay back. It is about people of a sovereign nation taking command of their country. Populations don´t respond well to being dictated to by unelected people. It causes divides and radical groups rather than togetherness. Think about it. DEMOCRACY is the issue.. Good luck Europe

newy777

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8

jeffbr

I'm not in the EU, so won't have a vote, but I believe I'd vote no. I'm a proponent of sovereignty and self-determination. As a US citizen I have a distrust/dislike of my federal government, and see state governments to be more in touch with constituencies, more efficient, and better able to address needs. I can't imagine being under the control of a governmental body even further removed than my federal government; one that may not share culture, language, etc...

Spags

Not all people who vote to leave are racists, but all racists will vote to leave.

dignin

Spags said:

Labour MP Jo Cox was shot and killed today. Horrible news.

Sorry to hear about this. She sounded like a great person and MP.

newy777

Spags said:

Not all people who vote to leave are racists, but all racists will vote to leave.

Silly comment..You really need to divert your attention away from racism. You should look to the real issues about this referendum because the rascist comments are pointless. The people wanting to get their sovereignty back are decent people who care about there country and generations to come.

Spags

Oh no doubt, I'm not calling into question the people that will vote to leave - that's completely their right whether I agree with their decision on not.

Spags

Regarding racism tho some of the parties in favour of leaving have shown they are fundamentally racist - did you see that UKIP billboard with the line of refugees that Farage was stood in front of today? Tbh both sides have turned this referendum into a shameful mess. Today's shooting makes me sick just thinking about it all. An isolated Britian right now couldnt be more of a backwards move. Hate to think of how much political capital both sides will make off the shooting. Still a week of this shit to go too...

Spags

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8

oftenreading

lukin2006 said:

Well I have no vote or say being Canadian ... But I'll say this, if all those lying politicians throughout the world are telling me it's a benefit to stay, I'd vote to get out asap ... If the politicians are telling you, "it's good for", what they are really saying is it's good for "the politicians and their master, the corporations.

Well, the opinions and exhortations of the politicians vary depending on what party they belong to, but automatically voting against what a politician says just because they said it is as poor an argument as automatically voting for what a politician says just because they say it. Critical examination of the issues separate from what is doled out is what's needed.

newy777

I

Spags said:

Regarding racism tho some of the parties in favour of leaving have shown they are fundamentally racist - did you see that UKIP billboard with the line of refugees that Farage was stood in front of today? Tbh both sides have turned this referendum into a shameful mess. Today's shooting makes me sick just thinking about it all. An isolated Britian right now couldnt be more of a backwards move. Hate to think of how much political capital both sides will make off the shooting. Still a week of this shit to go too...

Farage video for you. Enjoy..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZskRuu2FcA

myoung321

Nice to know the US doesn't have the market cornered for racist politicians in 2016

PJ_Soul

myoung321 said:

Nice to know the US doesn't have the market cornered for racist politicians in 2016

The EU is chock-full of them. It's crazy just how right wing and racist a lot of political parties are in Western Europe, and even crazier that they get as much support as they do. The difference, and why it seems even more surprising in the US, is that the US was very specifically built on immigration, and under the premise that people can come to America and have an equal opportunity. European nations really weren't built on these kinds of premises. Most European countries are and always have been fairly isolationist as far as that goes (I mean generally of course). They have always been somewhat protective of their individual cultures. But North America is supposed to be the exact opposite. North America was intended as a "melting pot" (US term) or as a "mosaic" (Canadian term, and a better one IMO). So to me, the political racism happening in the US is rather more shocking and contrary to supposed national values in that context.
That said, all this racism in Europe is still absolutely horrifying, and really scary to me.

Spags

newy777 said:

I

Spags said:

Regarding racism tho some of the parties in favour of leaving have shown they are fundamentally racist - did you see that UKIP billboard with the line of refugees that Farage was stood in front of today? Tbh both sides have turned this referendum into a shameful mess. Today's shooting makes me sick just thinking about it all. An isolated Britian right now couldnt be more of a backwards move. Hate to think of how much political capital both sides will make off the shooting. Still a week of this shit to go too...

Farage video for you. Enjoy..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZskRuu2FcA

Human waste...

newy777

Spags said:

newy777 said:

I

Spags said:

Regarding racism tho some of the parties in favour of leaving have shown they are fundamentally racist - did you see that UKIP billboard with the line of refugees that Farage was stood in front of today? Tbh both sides have turned this referendum into a shameful mess. Today's shooting makes me sick just thinking about it all. An isolated Britian right now couldnt be more of a backwards move. Hate to think of how much political capital both sides will make off the shooting. Still a week of this shit to go too...

Farage video for you. Enjoy..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZskRuu2FcA

Human waste...

Did you watch it? Would love to hear your counter points..

Spags

Nah, seen enough from him.

newy777

Spags said:

Nah, seen enough from him.

Yep, just whaat I thought. Thanks.

Spags

No problem.

Sorry, being childish this morning. Will watch vid when I get a chance...

newy777

“it comes down to an elemental choice: whether to restore the full self-government of this nation, or to continue living under a higher supranational regime, ruled by a European Council that we do not elect in any meaningful sense, and that the British people can never remove, even when it persists in error.”
This is maybe the best quote I have seen to sum up what this referendum means for the british people. It is from Ambrose Evans Pritchard.http://www.democraticaudit.com/?p=22770
Too often the leave campaign is tainted with the immigration problem that they want to have more say over. It´s purely democracy that has to be considered here. 59% of all british law is made by unelected officials in Brussels. This is immoral at it´s core. People need to wake up..really wake up. Look, Britain can always welcome more immigration if they choose to do so seeing it is best in their citizens interests. As it stands now they don´t have a say in what will happen. People are also being scared into voting for status quo because of uncertainty. When you have the former governor of the Bank of England come out very critical of the governments scare campaign you know people are being disingenuous in their claims of what would happen. A person like Mervyn King who is now withdrawn enough from the establishment after serving his time , should be taken serious when he calls BS.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3488483/A-disaster-zone-s-dominated-Germans-Ex-Bank-chief-King-s-verdict-euro-project.html
I don´t live in the UK and I am not in the eurozone but I can tell you living in a democratic country will always be better than the contrary.

newy777

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emxumavBU3M

newy777

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaBe2AE9TNg
This is a very good neutral assessment of Brexit. It starts at 8min15sec
I urge any british person to consider the information presented.

Spags

Was certainly interesting to hear a US perspective on it all - seems they favour the UK risking economic meltdown by cutting ties with the EU in pursuit of some notion of democratic freedom (something you seem to be championing too and in theory a worth cause no doubt). That stance is only really effective if I was to see myself not as European, but as British only and striving to reclaim some nostalgic view of my country as a once great Empire. Even then to risk financial recession over a number of years spent pulling away from the EU in the hope that the country could recover and become 'great' once more would still be far to big a gamble to consider.

newy777

Spags said:

Was certainly interesting to hear a US perspective on it all - seems they favour the UK risking economic meltdown by cutting ties with the EU in pursuit of some notion of democratic freedom (something you seem to be championing too and in theory a worth cause no doubt). That stance is only really effective if I was to see myself not as European, but as British only and striving to reclaim some nostalgic view of my country as a once great Empire. Even then to risk financial recession over a number of years spent pulling away from the EU in the hope that the country could recover and become 'great' once more would still be far to big a gamble to consider.

It´s good , I think we are getting somewhere. I see good points to the european union in terms of bringing peace to once enemy countries. My view however is that the economic and politic union only works in good times. There is no doubt that europe has many problems ahead if they vote to be in or out. I actually thought 5 yrs ago that the union would have collapsed by now. Central banks have turned to negative interest rates to keep the game going just a bit longer. It has been my thesis that when sovereignty is returned back to the countries across Europe, it is only then things will turn the corner for the better. As I see it now, countries are trapped and the system is totally unsustainable. I have spent many years studying the economy and I genuinely feel that some pain has to happen which could well mean recession but I really think it would be better long term. The biggest argument for me is britain having their democracy back. I think it could inspire the other european countries to go the same way. The way the european union is now can´t work because it causes divides in populations because people feel they have no control of their country and the future. It causes the rise in extreme groups , right and left and that is a sad state of affairs.To me saying you should fight for the greater good is simply empty words. I like to look at the root cause of the problems that exist. It can sometimes be unpopular but I always try to find the best solutions for everyone. I understand you are thinking it is a gamble but in my opinion the contrary is a worse outcome. I am happy that you see my side of things because it too often has been glossed over and all attention on immigration. I feel many of the good vote for leave people have similar principles.

Good luck to you..