I wonder if the psychological effects like depression and what not that a transgendered is having is because they are scared and don't know where to turn?
Didn't gay people have that same plight?
I'll admit that the transgender card still befuttles me but I'm learning more and trying to understand better.
Yes you are right about the psychological aspect. Same for gays and lesbians. But as society as a whole has become more accepting it has become less of an issue. Not so much for people dealing with being transgendered.
But, depending on where they live, grow up, go to school, work , religion, etc it can still be psychologically painful members of the LGB community. Now though there are many more venues for info and help.
I have to admit that I don't understand the transgender phenomenon very well. It sure seems to be trending lately and humans love trending.
Are we sure that 'transitioning' is a natural aspect of the human psyche and that instead of treating the confused human... we are entertaining something we shouldn't?
Does asking this question make me intolerant?
It probably means you're ignorant about the subject and combining it with confusion about why people are pushing against the status quo, when you didn't see a problem with the status quo. Transgendered people have always been around. Sometimes our gender doesn't match our physical parts. Societal gender roles that are rigid make this even a larger struggle for the transgendered person. They aren't necessarily confused. And then whenever a minority group gets a more equal status, people respond with hostility. Some then see the hostility and will blame the minority group for 'rocking the boat' because everything seemed just fine in the past.
Maybe.
Kind of like how Michael Jackson identified as white even though he was born black? And then undergoing multiple surgeries to make himself appear as he felt he should?
You kind of spoke smugly about the topic, but you never actually answered my question: are we definitively sure that transitioning is a normal part of human nature?
I don't give two shits if someone wants to lop their pecker and balls off to become a female... and I don't give two shits where they take a dump either... I only ask what I did because a person transitioning defies nature and science. Is mutilating yourself to become what you are not the answer? It might be... but it might not be either.
Psychology is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination.
It's not similar to anything with Michael Jackson, and I am sure that transgender is a normal part of being human. It's not defying nature and science if it's always occurred throughout human history, and if someone has reassignment surgery, they are just using what's available through modern means to make more of their physical match their gender. Really, the aspect of psychology that comes into play is how the person deals and comes to terms with their gender identity.
Dirty Frank posted an article that spoke to the possibility that the issue facing people feeling the need to transition was rooted in underlying conditions that needed to be addressed. Nobody tackled it- instead, people elected to attack GF which is a much easier thing to do. The reason why people left it alone is that people are basing their opinions about the confusing subject (no pun intended) on their presiding thought pattern. There is no scientifically definitive evidence that suggests confusion is a biological condition best treated with reorientation surgery that I have seen.
You have said here that you are sure transgender is a natural part of being human and qualify that by saying 'because it's always occurred'. Well, there have been many behaviours that have always occurred throughout time that most assuredly aren't considered normal, so for me... I'm still a little unconvinced.
I'm willing to support these people, but I can't help but wonder if supporting them means something else other than resculpting them? I may be wrong and am willing to admit that, however I think that, at a minimum, the discussion is warranted.
I don't find transgendered people confusing at all. What I find confusing is that so many people seem to have such trouble understanding what it's about. And I'm sorry if that sounds arrogant or whatever - I don't mean it that way. I think I mentioned before that I see it kind of as being born with a disability in that they are simply born with the wrong bodies (and I do hope that this viewpoint doesn't offend transgendered people or anyone else... Disabled probably isn't the right word at all, but I can't think of another one... and I don't think anyone should be offended by the idea of having a disability, but you never know). I don't find that a confusing concept, and I don't have trouble imagining if I felt like the person I am but had a male body and how confusing that must be for young people in a world where gender is so strictly defined. Transitioning is simply a surgery that is correcting that disability just the same as one might see a cochlear implant for someone who was born deaf.
The psychological issues that often accompany being born transgendered, I think, come from feeling like you're living in the wrong body, which must be very disturbing, being seen in part as someone you feel you're not, societal stigma and discrimination (obviously), the lack of understanding from just about everyone around them, and from being raised as the opposite sex without question (of course I'm not sure there is any way around that, since it's not like babies are tested for transgenderism when they're born so that parents can act appropriately.... that is more an issue of the way we assign gender roles to children, which I do think is a problem to some extent for ALL people, not just transgendered people). Dealing with the effects of all these factors on a person's emotions and development must be a huge struggle. I am not surprised that the suicide rate is so high in the transgendered population, especially with the incredible lack of understanding and the horrible levels of discrimination against them. The strength it must take to deal with all that and to actually come out and confront it all in the face of that must be incredibly stressful and lonely. It's like coming out and transitioning practically forces them into making a political statement at this point, and I doubt most people are particularly interested in that.... We've already seen this with gays and lesbians in the past. And now we're doing it all over again with transgendered people. You'd think society would learn from its mistakes, but apparently not.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I have to admit that I don't understand the transgender phenomenon very well. It sure seems to be trending lately and humans love trending.
Are we sure that 'transitioning' is a natural aspect of the human psyche and that instead of treating the confused human... we are entertaining something we shouldn't?
Does asking this question make me intolerant?
It probably means you're ignorant about the subject and combining it with confusion about why people are pushing against the status quo, when you didn't see a problem with the status quo. Transgendered people have always been around. Sometimes our gender doesn't match our physical parts. Societal gender roles that are rigid make this even a larger struggle for the transgendered person. They aren't necessarily confused. And then whenever a minority group gets a more equal status, people respond with hostility. Some then see the hostility and will blame the minority group for 'rocking the boat' because everything seemed just fine in the past.
Maybe.
Kind of like how Michael Jackson identified as white even though he was born black? And then undergoing multiple surgeries to make himself appear as he felt he should?
You kind of spoke smugly about the topic, but you never actually answered my question: are we definitively sure that transitioning is a normal part of human nature?
I don't give two shits if someone wants to lop their pecker and balls off to become a female... and I don't give two shits where they take a dump either... I only ask what I did because a person transitioning defies nature and science. Is mutilating yourself to become what you are not the answer? It might be... but it might not be either.
Psychology is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination.
It's not similar to anything with Michael Jackson, and I am sure that transgender is a normal part of being human. It's not defying nature and science if it's always occurred throughout human history, and if someone has reassignment surgery, they are just using what's available through modern means to make more of their physical match their gender. Really, the aspect of psychology that comes into play is how the person deals and comes to terms with their gender identity.
Dirty Frank posted an article that spoke to the possibility that the issue facing people feeling the need to transition was rooted in underlying conditions that needed to be addressed. Nobody tackled it- instead, people elected to attack GF which is a much easier thing to do. The reason why people left it alone is that people are basing their opinions about the confusing subject (no pun intended) on their presiding thought pattern. There is no scientifically definitive evidence that suggests confusion is a biological condition best treated with reorientation surgery that I have seen.
You have said here that you are sure transgender is a natural part of being human and qualify that by saying 'because it's always occurred'. Well, there have been many behaviours that have always occurred throughout time that most assuredly aren't considered normal, so for me... I'm still a little unconvinced.
I'm willing to support these people, but I can't help but wonder if supporting them means something else other than resculpting them? I may be wrong and am willing to admit that, however I think that, at a minimum, the discussion is warranted.
Gender identity isn't a behavior. And your gender not matching your biology fits in the uncommon category, not the abnormal category. I didn't respond to the article Dirty Frank posted because it references flawed studies, not because it's confusing to me. I'd say support them just by being cool with it and understand their story of being transgendered. Insisting on some biological proof before you're convinced is a resistance to that understanding.
This was announced with pretty much only positive reactions (I mean there are always a few idiots, but basically this is true) and no controversy at all. In fact, after a week or so it's not even in the news anymore. It was just met with complete acceptance. I wish I understood why some Americans are so up in arms about stuff connected to gender and sexuality and equality. Is it as simple as blaming it on Christianity??
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I have to admit that I don't understand the transgender phenomenon very well. It sure seems to be trending lately and humans love trending.
Are we sure that 'transitioning' is a natural aspect of the human psyche and that instead of treating the confused human... we are entertaining something we shouldn't?
Does asking this question make me intolerant?
It probably means you're ignorant about the subject and combining it with confusion about why people are pushing against the status quo, when you didn't see a problem with the status quo. Transgendered people have always been around. Sometimes our gender doesn't match our physical parts. Societal gender roles that are rigid make this even a larger struggle for the transgendered person. They aren't necessarily confused. And then whenever a minority group gets a more equal status, people respond with hostility. Some then see the hostility and will blame the minority group for 'rocking the boat' because everything seemed just fine in the past.
Maybe.
Kind of like how Michael Jackson identified as white even though he was born black? And then undergoing multiple surgeries to make himself appear as he felt he should?
You kind of spoke smugly about the topic, but you never actually answered my question: are we definitively sure that transitioning is a normal part of human nature?
I don't give two shits if someone wants to lop their pecker and balls off to become a female... and I don't give two shits where they take a dump either... I only ask what I did because a person transitioning defies nature and science. Is mutilating yourself to become what you are not the answer? It might be... but it might not be either.
Psychology is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination.
It's not similar to anything with Michael Jackson, and I am sure that transgender is a normal part of being human. It's not defying nature and science if it's always occurred throughout human history, and if someone has reassignment surgery, they are just using what's available through modern means to make more of their physical match their gender. Really, the aspect of psychology that comes into play is how the person deals and comes to terms with their gender identity.
Dirty Frank posted an article that spoke to the possibility that the issue facing people feeling the need to transition was rooted in underlying conditions that needed to be addressed. Nobody tackled it- instead, people elected to attack GF which is a much easier thing to do. The reason why people left it alone is that people are basing their opinions about the confusing subject (no pun intended) on their presiding thought pattern. There is no scientifically definitive evidence that suggests confusion is a biological condition best treated with reorientation surgery that I have seen.
You have said here that you are sure transgender is a natural part of being human and qualify that by saying 'because it's always occurred'. Well, there have been many behaviours that have always occurred throughout time that most assuredly aren't considered normal, so for me... I'm still a little unconvinced.
I'm willing to support these people, but I can't help but wonder if supporting them means something else other than resculpting them? I may be wrong and am willing to admit that, however I think that, at a minimum, the discussion is warranted.
Gender identity isn't a behavior. And your gender not matching your biology fits in the uncommon category, not the abnormal category. I didn't respond to the article Dirty Frank posted because it references flawed studies, not because it's confusing to me. I'd say support them just by being cool with it and understand their story of being transgendered. Insisting on some biological proof before you're convinced is a resistance to that understanding.
Why not respond with the body of literature that boasts the valid studies? If it's not biological... then it's psychological. If it's psychological... is it legitimate to physically change them before dealing with the state of mind?
And ultimately... I am cool with it. As I said... I don't give a shit who wants to change their gender or where they take their craps. I truly don't. I just don't understand it. It doesn't make sense to me and I'm trying to make sense of it.
What the hell is the difference if it's biological or psychological if people are born that way?? If you're born that way, and it is something in your brain that determines that you're transgendered, does that kind of mean it's biological anyhow?? Either way, who cares? I am pretty sure that the argument of "well they need psychological help" seems like a pretty insulting and offensive viewpoint IMO. That's what the religious wackos still say about gays, and they ship their kids off to camps the get "reconditioned". This is considered to be child abuse by most people.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I have to admit that I don't understand the transgender phenomenon very well. It sure seems to be trending lately and humans love trending.
Are we sure that 'transitioning' is a natural aspect of the human psyche and that instead of treating the confused human... we are entertaining something we shouldn't?
Does asking this question make me intolerant?
It probably means you're ignorant about the subject and combining it with confusion about why people are pushing against the status quo, when you didn't see a problem with the status quo. Transgendered people have always been around. Sometimes our gender doesn't match our physical parts. Societal gender roles that are rigid make this even a larger struggle for the transgendered person. They aren't necessarily confused. And then whenever a minority group gets a more equal status, people respond with hostility. Some then see the hostility and will blame the minority group for 'rocking the boat' because everything seemed just fine in the past.
Maybe.
Kind of like how Michael Jackson identified as white even though he was born black? And then undergoing multiple surgeries to make himself appear as he felt he should?
You kind of spoke smugly about the topic, but you never actually answered my question: are we definitively sure that transitioning is a normal part of human nature?
I don't give two shits if someone wants to lop their pecker and balls off to become a female... and I don't give two shits where they take a dump either... I only ask what I did because a person transitioning defies nature and science. Is mutilating yourself to become what you are not the answer? It might be... but it might not be either.
Psychology is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination.
It's not similar to anything with Michael Jackson, and I am sure that transgender is a normal part of being human. It's not defying nature and science if it's always occurred throughout human history, and if someone has reassignment surgery, they are just using what's available through modern means to make more of their physical match their gender. Really, the aspect of psychology that comes into play is how the person deals and comes to terms with their gender identity.
Dirty Frank posted an article that spoke to the possibility that the issue facing people feeling the need to transition was rooted in underlying conditions that needed to be addressed. Nobody tackled it- instead, people elected to attack GF which is a much easier thing to do. The reason why people left it alone is that people are basing their opinions about the confusing subject (no pun intended) on their presiding thought pattern. There is no scientifically definitive evidence that suggests confusion is a biological condition best treated with reorientation surgery that I have seen.
You have said here that you are sure transgender is a natural part of being human and qualify that by saying 'because it's always occurred'. Well, there have been many behaviours that have always occurred throughout time that most assuredly aren't considered normal, so for me... I'm still a little unconvinced.
I'm willing to support these people, but I can't help but wonder if supporting them means something else other than resculpting them? I may be wrong and am willing to admit that, however I think that, at a minimum, the discussion is warranted.
Why is it so wrong to call something abnormal anyway?
I would make Robin Williams look like a hairless Swede with the abnormal amount of hair I have on my arms. Its not normal, but that's okay.
Normal means "conforming to the standard or common type" and if something applies to less than 1% that would fit that definition regardless if its a choice or not. But does that even matter? Everyone wants to be different, but afraid to say something isn't normal.
Call it like it is. It's not a "normal" lifestyle, but that doesn't mean anyone should be treated any less than someone with a "normal" life.
It's just about how language is perceived. Unconventional is probably a lot less insulting than "not normal" if you feel the need to label people that way. Most people do see the term "not normal" as a criticism, not a statement of fact. But really, why would anyone choose to call a transgendered person "not normal" in a positive or supportive context? I really don't think they do.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I definitely see your point, and is probably true. My intentions were more about how it seems there are much better ways to defend someone than to just say "it's normal, get over it," which doesn't ring true to many.
Yeah, I understand what you're saying (hell, I actually think of "normal" as an insult, not the other way around! ). I think it's all really steered by the bigots TBH. The bigots think normal is a good thing - what we're all supposed to be. They are highly threatened by things that aren't "normal". So I figure this is why the term is an insult when it comes to victims of discrimination.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
What the hell is the difference if it's biological or psychological if people are born that way?? If you're born that way, and it is something in your brain that determines that you're transgendered, does that kind of mean it's biological anyhow?? Either way, who cares? I am pretty sure that the argument of "well they need psychological help" seems like a pretty insulting and offensive viewpoint IMO. That's what the religious wackos still say about gays, and they ship their kids off to camps the get "reconditioned". This is considered to be child abuse by most people.
You're all over the place with this one.
There's all kinds of therapies, medications, and treatments for all kinds of things.
If a person born with male genitalia develops the mindset where they think they are a woman and it is established that this is psychological... would therapy or drugs having the effect of reaffirming one's gender be a more suitable course of action than surgery? Or is it no big deal and if a male thinks they are a female... replace their organs and simply make them a female?
The only point I am trying to make is posing the idea that perhaps there is a better way than reconstructive surgery. Are we sure we got this figured out? I'm hearing from you and a few others that you're sure we do. I'm not convinced, but I'm certainly not going to be the fly in the ointment.
If someone with a penis thinks they are a female and want their organs removed... hack away. It won't bother me.
What the hell is the difference if it's biological or psychological if people are born that way?? If you're born that way, and it is something in your brain that determines that you're transgendered, does that kind of mean it's biological anyhow?? Either way, who cares? I am pretty sure that the argument of "well they need psychological help" seems like a pretty insulting and offensive viewpoint IMO. That's what the religious wackos still say about gays, and they ship their kids off to camps the get "reconditioned". This is considered to be child abuse by most people.
You're all over the place with this one.
There's all kinds of therapies, medications, and treatments for all kinds of things.
If a person born with male genitalia develops the mindset where they think they are a woman and it is established that this is psychological... would therapy or drugs having the effect of reaffirming one's gender be a more suitable course of action than surgery? Or is it no big deal and if a male thinks they are a female... replace their organs and simply make them a female?
The only point I am trying to make is posing the idea that perhaps there is a better way than reconstructive surgery. Are we sure we got this figured out? I'm hearing from you and a few others that you're sure we do. I'm not convinced, but I'm certainly not going to be the fly in the ointment.
If someone with a penis thinks they are a female and want their organs removed... hack away. It won't bother me.
I'm not all over the place with it at all. I'm specifically talking about being bored wired a certain way like gays and transgendered people are. I'm not talking about mental illness. Surely we're beyond THAT kind of thinking by now?
As for reassignment surgery..... that is absolutely NOBODY'S business but the person who wants/needs the surgery. If that seems a legitimate way to handle their transgenderism (word??), then how is that worse than medicating the shit out of someone or telling them to seek therapy when they don't want to change they way they think or feel?? It is their bodies that feel wrong, not their minds. When your mind feels wrong, you medicate. When your body feels wrong, you fix your body. Makes perfect sense, and I don't even know why people are considering shit like therapy or drugs as a course of action. I find it incredibly insensitive.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
What the hell is the difference if it's biological or psychological if people are born that way?? If you're born that way, and it is something in your brain that determines that you're transgendered, does that kind of mean it's biological anyhow?? Either way, who cares? I am pretty sure that the argument of "well they need psychological help" seems like a pretty insulting and offensive viewpoint IMO. That's what the religious wackos still say about gays, and they ship their kids off to camps the get "reconditioned". This is considered to be child abuse by most people.
You're all over the place with this one.
There's all kinds of therapies, medications, and treatments for all kinds of things.
If a person born with male genitalia develops the mindset where they think they are a woman and it is established that this is psychological... would therapy or drugs having the effect of reaffirming one's gender be a more suitable course of action than surgery? Or is it no big deal and if a male thinks they are a female... replace their organs and simply make them a female?
The only point I am trying to make is posing the idea that perhaps there is a better way than reconstructive surgery. Are we sure we got this figured out? I'm hearing from you and a few others that you're sure we do. I'm not convinced, but I'm certainly not going to be the fly in the ointment.
If someone with a penis thinks they are a female and want their organs removed... hack away. It won't bother me.
I'm not all over the place with it at all. I'm specifically talking about being bored wired a certain way like gays and transgendered people are. I'm not talking about mental illness. Surely we're beyond THAT kind of thinking by now?
As for reassignment surgery..... that is absolutely NOBODY'S business but the person who wants/needs the surgery. If that seems a legitimate way to handle their transgenderism (word??), then how is that worse than medicating the shit out of someone or telling them to seek therapy when they don't want to change they way they think or feel?? It is their bodies that feel wrong, not their minds. When your mind feels wrong, you medicate. When your body feels wrong, you fix your body. Makes perfect sense, and I don't even know why people are considering shit like therapy or drugs as a course of action. I find it incredibly insensitive.
What's with the consistent connection with homosexuality when discussing transgender issues? Transgender issues have nothing to do with homosexuality as far as I know. And when you speak of insensitivity... I'm not sure how I would feel if I was gay and reading these posts that seem to suggest I'm different as you framed it: 'being born wired a certain way like gays and transgendered people are.'
Well, I can certainly relate to feeling "This is not the body I was meant to have."
That's a good place for me start my journey of understanding.
What do you mean by this?
Exactly what it says. I can relate on some level to wishing I had a different body. My true self is 20 pounds lighter and athletic. I'm just not motivated to do anything about it, in spite of obsessing over it daily.
I suppose if I felt my true self had a penis and a beard, and if I obsessed over it daily, and if I was motivated . . . I would have an operation.
Forgive the analogy if it doesn't work for everybody. I'm trying to find a way to relate.
See, I think the willingness to want to understand and/or relate, based not only on Thirty's and what dreams' comments have conveyed, are important. It's not the mental equivalent of shoving a plate of food away saying "I refuse to even taste this", it's more (to me) about being open to the ingredients, the why's and how's.
See, I think the willingness to want to understand and/or relate, based not only on Thirty's and what dreams' comments have conveyed, are important. It's not the mental equivalent of shoving a plate of food away saying "I refuse to even taste this", it's more (to me) about being open to the ingredients, the why's and how's.
Probably another analogy that begs forgiveness
No. This sums it up pretty nicely and needs no forgiveness.
I'm trying to see this how others see it. It's a challenge for me. I'm not going to stand in the way of anything or make it difficult for anyone in any way... but I'm just being honest when I say I'm not quite at the point where I look at this as a completely normal situation and think absolutely nothing of it.
I'd like to add that it's really not a big deal to me. If people would prefer I keep from this thread and not express my curiousness (for lack of better word)... I can leave it so everyone can nod their heads at each other.
Yeah ... I don't known either. Young people are already self contious of there bodies, are they not? I was in my teen years. I'd suggest bathrooms with ceiling to wall stalls, that could be costly. Now you're dealing with teenagers, and many can be bullies. Hopefully POD chimes in. POD?
What the hell is the difference if it's biological or psychological if people are born that way?? If you're born that way, and it is something in your brain that determines that you're transgendered, does that kind of mean it's biological anyhow?? Either way, who cares? I am pretty sure that the argument of "well they need psychological help" seems like a pretty insulting and offensive viewpoint IMO. That's what the religious wackos still say about gays, and they ship their kids off to camps the get "reconditioned". This is considered to be child abuse by most people.
You're all over the place with this one.
There's all kinds of therapies, medications, and treatments for all kinds of things.
If a person born with male genitalia develops the mindset where they think they are a woman and it is established that this is psychological... would therapy or drugs having the effect of reaffirming one's gender be a more suitable course of action than surgery? Or is it no big deal and if a male thinks they are a female... replace their organs and simply make them a female?
The only point I am trying to make is posing the idea that perhaps there is a better way than reconstructive surgery. Are we sure we got this figured out? I'm hearing from you and a few others that you're sure we do. I'm not convinced, but I'm certainly not going to be the fly in the ointment.
If someone with a penis thinks they are a female and want their organs removed... hack away. It won't bother me.
I'm not all over the place with it at all. I'm specifically talking about being bored wired a certain way like gays and transgendered people are. I'm not talking about mental illness. Surely we're beyond THAT kind of thinking by now?
As for reassignment surgery..... that is absolutely NOBODY'S business but the person who wants/needs the surgery. If that seems a legitimate way to handle their transgenderism (word??), then how is that worse than medicating the shit out of someone or telling them to seek therapy when they don't want to change they way they think or feel?? It is their bodies that feel wrong, not their minds. When your mind feels wrong, you medicate. When your body feels wrong, you fix your body. Makes perfect sense, and I don't even know why people are considering shit like therapy or drugs as a course of action. I find it incredibly insensitive.
If the body has male sex organs but the mind thinks the body is female, wouldn't it be more reasonable to say the disconnect is with the mind? It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that perhaps there is some chemical inbalance that can be treated with drugs. Right or wrong, I don't think it is insensitive to ask the question.
What the hell is the difference if it's biological or psychological if people are born that way?? If you're born that way, and it is something in your brain that determines that you're transgendered, does that kind of mean it's biological anyhow?? Either way, who cares? I am pretty sure that the argument of "well they need psychological help" seems like a pretty insulting and offensive viewpoint IMO. That's what the religious wackos still say about gays, and they ship their kids off to camps the get "reconditioned". This is considered to be child abuse by most people.
You're all over the place with this one.
There's all kinds of therapies, medications, and treatments for all kinds of things.
If a person born with male genitalia develops the mindset where they think they are a woman and it is established that this is psychological... would therapy or drugs having the effect of reaffirming one's gender be a more suitable course of action than surgery? Or is it no big deal and if a male thinks they are a female... replace their organs and simply make them a female?
The only point I am trying to make is posing the idea that perhaps there is a better way than reconstructive surgery. Are we sure we got this figured out? I'm hearing from you and a few others that you're sure we do. I'm not convinced, but I'm certainly not going to be the fly in the ointment.
If someone with a penis thinks they are a female and want their organs removed... hack away. It won't bother me.
I'm not all over the place with it at all. I'm specifically talking about being bored wired a certain way like gays and transgendered people are. I'm not talking about mental illness. Surely we're beyond THAT kind of thinking by now?
As for reassignment surgery..... that is absolutely NOBODY'S business but the person who wants/needs the surgery. If that seems a legitimate way to handle their transgenderism (word??), then how is that worse than medicating the shit out of someone or telling them to seek therapy when they don't want to change they way they think or feel?? It is their bodies that feel wrong, not their minds. When your mind feels wrong, you medicate. When your body feels wrong, you fix your body. Makes perfect sense, and I don't even know why people are considering shit like therapy or drugs as a course of action. I find it incredibly insensitive.
If the body has male sex organs but the mind thinks the body is female, wouldn't it be more reasonable to say the disconnect is with the mind? It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that perhaps there is some chemical inbalance that can be treated with drugs. Right or wrong, I don't think it is insensitive to ask the question.
So your saying that transgender people are sick? Is that the same for gay people?
will myself to find a home, a home within myself we will find a way, we will find our place
What the hell is the difference if it's biological or psychological if people are born that way?? If you're born that way, and it is something in your brain that determines that you're transgendered, does that kind of mean it's biological anyhow?? Either way, who cares? I am pretty sure that the argument of "well they need psychological help" seems like a pretty insulting and offensive viewpoint IMO. That's what the religious wackos still say about gays, and they ship their kids off to camps the get "reconditioned". This is considered to be child abuse by most people.
You're all over the place with this one.
There's all kinds of therapies, medications, and treatments for all kinds of things.
If a person born with male genitalia develops the mindset where they think they are a woman and it is established that this is psychological... would therapy or drugs having the effect of reaffirming one's gender be a more suitable course of action than surgery? Or is it no big deal and if a male thinks they are a female... replace their organs and simply make them a female?
The only point I am trying to make is posing the idea that perhaps there is a better way than reconstructive surgery. Are we sure we got this figured out? I'm hearing from you and a few others that you're sure we do. I'm not convinced, but I'm certainly not going to be the fly in the ointment.
If someone with a penis thinks they are a female and want their organs removed... hack away. It won't bother me.
I'm not all over the place with it at all. I'm specifically talking about being bored wired a certain way like gays and transgendered people are. I'm not talking about mental illness. Surely we're beyond THAT kind of thinking by now?
As for reassignment surgery..... that is absolutely NOBODY'S business but the person who wants/needs the surgery. If that seems a legitimate way to handle their transgenderism (word??), then how is that worse than medicating the shit out of someone or telling them to seek therapy when they don't want to change they way they think or feel?? It is their bodies that feel wrong, not their minds. When your mind feels wrong, you medicate. When your body feels wrong, you fix your body. Makes perfect sense, and I don't even know why people are considering shit like therapy or drugs as a course of action. I find it incredibly insensitive.
If the body has male sex organs but the mind thinks the body is female, wouldn't it be more reasonable to say the disconnect is with the mind? It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that perhaps there is some chemical inbalance that can be treated with drugs. Right or wrong, I don't think it is insensitive to ask the question.
So your saying that transgender people are sick? Is that the same for gay people?
Again... exactly why are people associating transgender people with gay people?
What the hell is the difference if it's biological or psychological if people are born that way?? If you're born that way, and it is something in your brain that determines that you're transgendered, does that kind of mean it's biological anyhow?? Either way, who cares? I am pretty sure that the argument of "well they need psychological help" seems like a pretty insulting and offensive viewpoint IMO. That's what the religious wackos still say about gays, and they ship their kids off to camps the get "reconditioned". This is considered to be child abuse by most people.
You're all over the place with this one.
There's all kinds of therapies, medications, and treatments for all kinds of things.
If a person born with male genitalia develops the mindset where they think they are a woman and it is established that this is psychological... would therapy or drugs having the effect of reaffirming one's gender be a more suitable course of action than surgery? Or is it no big deal and if a male thinks they are a female... replace their organs and simply make them a female?
The only point I am trying to make is posing the idea that perhaps there is a better way than reconstructive surgery. Are we sure we got this figured out? I'm hearing from you and a few others that you're sure we do. I'm not convinced, but I'm certainly not going to be the fly in the ointment.
If someone with a penis thinks they are a female and want their organs removed... hack away. It won't bother me.
I'm not all over the place with it at all. I'm specifically talking about being bored wired a certain way like gays and transgendered people are. I'm not talking about mental illness. Surely we're beyond THAT kind of thinking by now?
As for reassignment surgery..... that is absolutely NOBODY'S business but the person who wants/needs the surgery. If that seems a legitimate way to handle their transgenderism (word??), then how is that worse than medicating the shit out of someone or telling them to seek therapy when they don't want to change they way they think or feel?? It is their bodies that feel wrong, not their minds. When your mind feels wrong, you medicate. When your body feels wrong, you fix your body. Makes perfect sense, and I don't even know why people are considering shit like therapy or drugs as a course of action. I find it incredibly insensitive.
If the body has male sex organs but the mind thinks the body is female, wouldn't it be more reasonable to say the disconnect is with the mind? It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that perhaps there is some chemical inbalance that can be treated with drugs. Right or wrong, I don't think it is insensitive to ask the question.
So your saying that transgender people are sick? Is that the same for gay people?
Again... exactly why are people associating transgender people with gay people?
I'm not associating transgender people with gay people. I'm wondering since people think being a transgender is mental illness if they think the same about gay oeople.
will myself to find a home, a home within myself we will find a way, we will find our place
What the hell is the difference if it's biological or psychological if people are born that way?? If you're born that way, and it is something in your brain that determines that you're transgendered, does that kind of mean it's biological anyhow?? Either way, who cares? I am pretty sure that the argument of "well they need psychological help" seems like a pretty insulting and offensive viewpoint IMO. That's what the religious wackos still say about gays, and they ship their kids off to camps the get "reconditioned". This is considered to be child abuse by most people.
You're all over the place with this one.
There's all kinds of therapies, medications, and treatments for all kinds of things.
If a person born with male genitalia develops the mindset where they think they are a woman and it is established that this is psychological... would therapy or drugs having the effect of reaffirming one's gender be a more suitable course of action than surgery? Or is it no big deal and if a male thinks they are a female... replace their organs and simply make them a female?
The only point I am trying to make is posing the idea that perhaps there is a better way than reconstructive surgery. Are we sure we got this figured out? I'm hearing from you and a few others that you're sure we do. I'm not convinced, but I'm certainly not going to be the fly in the ointment.
If someone with a penis thinks they are a female and want their organs removed... hack away. It won't bother me.
I'm not all over the place with it at all. I'm specifically talking about being bored wired a certain way like gays and transgendered people are. I'm not talking about mental illness. Surely we're beyond THAT kind of thinking by now?
As for reassignment surgery..... that is absolutely NOBODY'S business but the person who wants/needs the surgery. If that seems a legitimate way to handle their transgenderism (word??), then how is that worse than medicating the shit out of someone or telling them to seek therapy when they don't want to change they way they think or feel?? It is their bodies that feel wrong, not their minds. When your mind feels wrong, you medicate. When your body feels wrong, you fix your body. Makes perfect sense, and I don't even know why people are considering shit like therapy or drugs as a course of action. I find it incredibly insensitive.
If the body has male sex organs but the mind thinks the body is female, wouldn't it be more reasonable to say the disconnect is with the mind? It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that perhaps there is some chemical inbalance that can be treated with drugs. Right or wrong, I don't think it is insensitive to ask the question.
So your saying that transgender people are sick? Is that the same for gay people?
Again... exactly why are people associating transgender people with gay people?
I'm not associating transgender people with gay people. I'm wondering since people think being a transgender is mental illness if they think the same about gay oeople.
A pill is not the answer for everything.
'The wires are crossed in the brain for sure' but that's what everyone thought about gay people at first too. Hell, didn't they do lobotomy's on people that were considered "off"?
This is still all something I am trying to understand myself.
We're talking about f**king bathrooms. If you got a noodle... go hang your noodle out where all the other noodles hang out. Look straight ahead while you do it and bingo... you've successfully pee'd.
School bathrooms are not teeming with thugs looking to club transgender people. They're typically very quiet places with most of the kids sitting in class. A transgender kid simply needs to ask if they can go to the washroom... walk to the washroom through the empty halls... walk into the empty washroom (there might be someone in there so say "Hi" if so)... and relieve themselves.
* Both the same issue... but essentially the same strategy for adults in the public setting. I'm pretty sure there are no scarlet letters indicating who's transitioning so even the worst asshole out there doesn't give a shit. If someone has already transitioned... go to new designation.
it's just not that cut and dried man, the human factor is way to bazar and the fact that it's been boy's in the boy's room and girls in the girls room since forever ! and accepted as so then why change it ? it's worked great all these years.
Godfather.
Yes, it is cut and dry. The only "human" factor that comes into play are the people that discriminate against the transgender community.
geeeeeze would you get off that discriminate thing ! whaaaa whaaaa whaaaa !!!!!! it's not discrimination at all ! it's people like you forcing your bullshit on people who don't want it ! get over yourself already !
Godfather.
What do you mean people like you ? Dude this law is discriminatory against a sect of humans ...
There are estimates that .3% of the US population is transgender. That is less than 1 million people in the country. I agree this is a non subject, however when the POTUS threatens to cut off funds for education it becomes everyones issue. Why should 99.7% of the people have to conform to the .3%?
You are clueless !!
no man, he's spot on!
Godfather.
You fall in the same boat GF you're clueless too !!
Threatening to cut federal funds for something that wasn't on anybody's radar 3 months ago is clueless.
Right.
Now who started this mess?
At whom should you be putting the blame?
No no no not the Feds. No Not the evil Obama.
It's the religious that are fighting for their perception of reality which is being taken away from them. Another win for gods and goblins.
Comments
But, depending on where they live, grow up, go to school, work , religion, etc it can still be psychologically painful members of the LGB community. Now though there are many more venues for info and help.
You have said here that you are sure transgender is a natural part of being human and qualify that by saying 'because it's always occurred'. Well, there have been many behaviours that have always occurred throughout time that most assuredly aren't considered normal, so for me... I'm still a little unconvinced.
I'm willing to support these people, but I can't help but wonder if supporting them means something else other than resculpting them? I may be wrong and am willing to admit that, however I think that, at a minimum, the discussion is warranted.
The psychological issues that often accompany being born transgendered, I think, come from feeling like you're living in the wrong body, which must be very disturbing, being seen in part as someone you feel you're not, societal stigma and discrimination (obviously), the lack of understanding from just about everyone around them, and from being raised as the opposite sex without question (of course I'm not sure there is any way around that, since it's not like babies are tested for transgenderism when they're born so that parents can act appropriately.... that is more an issue of the way we assign gender roles to children, which I do think is a problem to some extent for ALL people, not just transgendered people). Dealing with the effects of all these factors on a person's emotions and development must be a huge struggle. I am not surprised that the suicide rate is so high in the transgendered population, especially with the incredible lack of understanding and the horrible levels of discrimination against them. The strength it must take to deal with all that and to actually come out and confront it all in the face of that must be incredibly stressful and lonely. It's like coming out and transitioning practically forces them into making a political statement at this point, and I doubt most people are particularly interested in that.... We've already seen this with gays and lesbians in the past. And now we're doing it all over again with transgendered people. You'd think society would learn from its mistakes, but apparently not.
This whole thing just gets stupider and stupider. I cannot fathom why some Americans are so hot and bothered about this. I just don't get it. Not to toot our own horns, but the difference is just so striking between the US and Canada.
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2016/05/17/transgender-rights-bill-marks-overdue-progress-editorial.html
This was announced with pretty much only positive reactions (I mean there are always a few idiots, but basically this is true) and no controversy at all. In fact, after a week or so it's not even in the news anymore. It was just met with complete acceptance. I wish I understood why some Americans are so up in arms about stuff connected to gender and sexuality and equality. Is it as simple as blaming it on Christianity??
And ultimately... I am cool with it. As I said... I don't give a shit who wants to change their gender or where they take their craps. I truly don't. I just don't understand it. It doesn't make sense to me and I'm trying to make sense of it.
I would make Robin Williams look like a hairless Swede with the abnormal amount of hair I have on my arms. Its not normal, but that's okay.
Normal means "conforming to the standard or common type" and if something applies to less than 1% that would fit that definition regardless if its a choice or not. But does that even matter? Everyone wants to be different, but afraid to say something isn't normal.
Call it like it is. It's not a "normal" lifestyle, but that doesn't mean anyone should be treated any less than someone with a "normal" life.
My intentions were more about how it seems there are much better ways to defend someone than to just say "it's normal, get over it," which doesn't ring true to many.
There's all kinds of therapies, medications, and treatments for all kinds of things.
If a person born with male genitalia develops the mindset where they think they are a woman and it is established that this is psychological... would therapy or drugs having the effect of reaffirming one's gender be a more suitable course of action than surgery? Or is it no big deal and if a male thinks they are a female... replace their organs and simply make them a female?
The only point I am trying to make is posing the idea that perhaps there is a better way than reconstructive surgery. Are we sure we got this figured out? I'm hearing from you and a few others that you're sure we do. I'm not convinced, but I'm certainly not going to be the fly in the ointment.
If someone with a penis thinks they are a female and want their organs removed... hack away. It won't bother me.
As for reassignment surgery..... that is absolutely NOBODY'S business but the person who wants/needs the surgery. If that seems a legitimate way to handle their transgenderism (word??), then how is that worse than medicating the shit out of someone or telling them to seek therapy when they don't want to change they way they think or feel?? It is their bodies that feel wrong, not their minds. When your mind feels wrong, you medicate. When your body feels wrong, you fix your body. Makes perfect sense, and I don't even know why people are considering shit like therapy or drugs as a course of action. I find it incredibly insensitive.
That's a good place for me start my journey of understanding.
I suppose if I felt my true self had a penis and a beard, and if I obsessed over it daily, and if I was motivated . . . I would have an operation.
Forgive the analogy if it doesn't work for everybody. I'm trying to find a way to relate.
Probably another analogy that begs forgiveness
I'm trying to see this how others see it. It's a challenge for me. I'm not going to stand in the way of anything or make it difficult for anyone in any way... but I'm just being honest when I say I'm not quite at the point where I look at this as a completely normal situation and think absolutely nothing of it.
I'd like to add that it's really not a big deal to me. If people would prefer I keep from this thread and not express my curiousness (for lack of better word)... I can leave it so everyone can nod their heads at each other.
(says I)
we will find a way, we will find our place
we will find a way, we will find our place
'The wires are crossed in the brain for sure' but that's what everyone thought about gay people at first too. Hell, didn't they do lobotomy's on people that were considered "off"?
This is still all something I am trying to understand myself.
Now who started this mess?
At whom should you be putting the blame?
No no no not the Feds.
No Not the evil Obama.
It's the religious that are fighting for their perception of reality which is being taken away from them. Another win for gods and goblins.