Schools must allow transgender bathrooms, Department of Education says

PJ_Soul

Godfather. said:

and punish everybody else ?

Godfather.

No. There is no punishment involved. I'm sorry, but being a bigot (and the bigots certainly are not "everybody else") who is subjected to the focus of their bigotry isn't punishment, unless you mean forcing the victim of the bigotry to be anywhere near the people discriminating against them. I will continue using the same analogy because it fits perfectly: Getting rid of "coloureds-only" washrooms and "whites-only" washrooms and making black people and white people use the same washroom is not a punishment to white people. Forcing black people to use separate washrooms because of racism was punishing black people for being born black. Exact same thing applies here with transgendered people. It's about civil rights. It doesn't matter how much some people oppose a civil or human right. It's still a right.

Godfather.

how is it not ? if 90% of the population is forced into something what would you call it ?

Godfather.

PJ_Soul

Godfather. said:

how is it not ? if 90% of the population is forced into something what would you call it ?

Godfather.

It's called what's right. It wouldn't matter if 99.9% of people were against a civil or human right. That's why civil or human rights shouldn't be put to a vote. Because even if 99% of a population are bigots, that doesn't take away that 1%'s rights. Civil and human rights are not a matter of opinion. What if 99% of a population supported black slavery? Would that make it okay? No. Of course it wouldn't. So, to be clear, when you're talking about civil rights, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.

Godfather.

we're not talking about slavery.....we're talking about a man in a women's restroom, and you and Jose really don't see the discomfort that would cause MOST women/ people ? anybody who disfigures their body and demands to use the ladies room is fucked up in the head in my opinion and it's a pretty common belief among most men and yet you would like to trust them use the ladies room ?.......unbelievable !
it has NOTHING to do with discrimination it's called common sense and right to privacy while our wives and daughter's are using a public restroom and our kid's don't need that bullshit either.
time to wake up.

Godfather.

mickeyrat

Godfather. said:

we're not talking about slavery.....we're talking about a man in a women's restroom, and you and Jose really don't see the discomfort that would cause MOST women/ people ? anybody who disfigures their body and demands to use the ladies room is fucked up in the head in my opinion and it's a pretty common belief among most men and yet you would like to trust them use the ladies room ?.......unbelievable !
it has NOTHING to do with discrimination it's called common sense and right to privacy while our wives and daughter's are using a public restroom and our kid's don't need that bullshit either.
time to wake up.

Godfather.

wkae up to this....

mickeyrat said:

Wife found and shared this on adbook.



Dear creepy heterosexual men guarding our bathrooms,

My entire life, I've been told to fear you in one way or another. I've been told to cover my body as to not distract you in school, to cover my body to help avoid unwanted advances or comments, to cover my body as to not tempt you to sexually assault me, to reject your unwanted advances politely as to not anger you. I've been taught to never walk alone at night, to hold my keys in my fist while walking in parking lots, to check the backseat of my car, to not drink too much because you might take advantage of me. I've been told what I should and shouldn't do with my body as to not jeopardize my relationships with you.

I've been warned not to emasculate you, to let "boys be boys", to protect your fragile ego and to not tread on your even more fragile masculinity. I've been taught to keep my emotions in check, to let you be the unit of measure for how much emotion is appropriate and to adjust my emotions accordingly. I've been taught that you're allowed to categorize women into mothers/sisters/girlfriends/wives/daughters but any woman outside of your protected categories is fair game.

So to those of you who think you're being helpful by "protecting" me and my fellow women, you're like a shark sitting in the Lifeguard chair. I wasn't uncomfortable until you showed up at the pool and the only potential predator I see is you.

Your mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives and daughters don't need you to walk them to the bathroom for safety. Your fathers, brothers, friends and sons need to walk themselves away from their own double standards. Women are sexually harassed and sexually assaulted on school campuses, on the street, at their jobs, on the Internet, in their own homes, in ANY public place. And it has been excused or ignored for so long because of what you and I are taught from the first years of our interactions with each other: You, as a male, are not accountable for your own actions. It's MY responsibility, as a female, to not "provoke" you. But then you get to Knight-In-Shining-Armor your way through life for those in your protected categories and I am expected to applaud you. Why the outrage now over bathrooms? Why aren't you outraged every single day?

If you're telling me that there are high volumes of boys and men out there, in schools or in general, who are just waiting for a "loop hole" to sexually assault girls and women, we have bigger problems on our hands than bathrooms. The first problem would be your apparent lack of knowledge of how often it happens OUTSIDE of bathrooms, with no "loop holes" needed. This isn't about Transgender bathroom access. This is about you not trusting the boys and men in your communities and/or fearing that they're all secretly predators. Why do you have this fear? How many fathers have panicked when their daughters started dating because they "know how teenaged boys can be because they used to be one"? How many times have girls been warned "boys are only after one thing"? A mother can bring her young son into the women's restroom and that's fine but a father bringing his young daughter into the men's restroom is disturbing because men are assumed to be predators and "little girls" shouldn't be exposed to that.

So instead of picking up your sword and heading to Target or the girls' locker room to defend our "rights", why don't you start somewhere that could actually make a difference? Challenge your children's schools to end sexist dress codes and dress codes that sexualize girls as young as age 5. Advocate for proper (or any) sex education classes in all public schools by a certain grade level. Focus more on teaching your sons not to rape vs teaching your daughters how to avoid being raped. Stop asking "How would you feel if that was your mother or sister?" It shouldn't take the comparison to clue you in to what's right or wrong. Question why you're more worried about your daughter being around men than your son being around women in bathrooms and dressing rooms. Stop walking by Victoria's Secret with no problem but covering your son's eyes if a woman is breastfeeding in public. Stop treating your daughter's body as some fortress you're sworn to protect as if that's all she's got to offer the world.

THIS is the problem here.

dignin

PJ_Soul said:

Godfather. said:

how is it not ? if 90% of the population is forced into something what would you call it ?

Godfather.

It's called what's right. It wouldn't matter if 99.9% of people were against a civil or human right. That's why civil or human rights shouldn't be put to a vote. Because even if 99% of a population are bigots, that doesn't take away that 1%'s rights. Civil and human rights are not a matter of opinion. What if 99% of a population supported black slavery? Would that make it okay? No. Of course it wouldn't. So, to be clear, when you're talking about civil rights, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.

You get it.

josevolution

Godfather. said:

we're not talking about slavery.....we're talking about a man in a women's restroom, and you and Jose really don't see the discomfort that would cause MOST women/ people ? anybody who disfigures their body and demands to use the ladies room is fucked up in the head in my opinion and it's a pretty common belief among most men and yet you would like to trust them use the ladies room ?.......unbelievable !
it has NOTHING to do with discrimination it's called common sense and right to privacy while our wives and daughter's are using a public restroom and our kid's don't need that bullshit either.
time to wake up.

Godfather.

Lol lol ha ha you don't even know what a transgender is lol ok , have a great day

Degeneratefk

Godfather. said:

how is it not ? if 90% of the population is forced into something what would you call it ?

Godfather.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

Degeneratefk

Godfather. said:

and punish everybody else ?

Godfather.

It's ok to discriminate if it only affects .3% of the population? Where's that cut off line?

josevolution

@ GF you said disfigured themselves as if they castrated themselves or mame themselves to be able to go into the opposite gender bathroom to abuse women , is that what you meant ?

Kat

More of the Shame.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lgbt-discrimination-ndaa_us_573de95de4b0ef86171d8400

what dreams

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I have to admit that I don't understand the transgender phenomenon very well. It sure seems to be trending lately and humans love trending.

Are we sure that 'transitioning' is a natural aspect of the human psyche and that instead of treating the confused human... we are entertaining something we shouldn't?

Does asking this question make me intolerant?

I'm with you in that I don't really understand it all either. I mean, if a person is transgendered, they've had an operation, right? The original man now looks like a woman. So how would I even know if a woman in the bathroom was an original woman or an operational woman, unless it was a really unsuccessful operation? And wouldn't someone in between feel out of place no matter which bathroom? Like, do they go through a phase where they're kind of half and half? I know the one dad/mom I met was pretty awkward still in the heels and dress, trying to look and act like a woman but pretty obviously not there yet. Someone with more knowledge in these matters told me it's a hard phase to go through, figuring out the hair and the clothes and all.

I don't really care one way or another what this person was doing, but I did have extra empathy for the 13 year old son once I met the dad/mom (sorry I never got far enough to ask what the parent refers to him/herself). That can't be easy, to be a middle school boy with a parent going through this. I smiled, was polite the same way I'd be with anyone, but yes, some people wonder what the hell this even is, trying to understand. I will not lie and say none of the faculty met in the lounge at the end of Back to School Night with a big "What the hell just happened?"

I don't think it makes us bigots or intolerant to ask questions or wonder at how we're supposed to respond as a society, though. Clearly it's confusing for everybody. I don't see why we can't have civil dialogue while we sort through the confusion. Not everybody sees the issue in such easily delineated terms, and I don't see why those who do can't or won't help the rest of us understand in the same patient, kind way that we are also expected to (and do) treat others.

PJ_Soul

No, a transgendered person has not necessarily had a sex change surgery. They are transgendered presumably from birth. The sex change just puts them in the right body. I have heard that some (if not most) transgendered people only consider themselves that UNTIL they have the surgery, and after then they are just a man or a woman.... Like transgendered means that they need to transition and once they have, they are just the way they are supposed to be, so no longer transgendered. But I'm sure attitudes vary in that context. Before reassignment surgery, though, they still identify as being male or female, just stuck in the wrong body, so to them, it's more like that state is almost a kind of deformity or a disability (I'm sure there is a better word to use here, but I can't think of it right now)... and since when did we think it was okay to discriminate against people with deformities or disabilities and force them to do stuff they aren't comfortable with??

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

Godfather. said:

how is it not ? if 90% of the population is forced into something what would you call it ?

Godfather.

It's called what's right. It wouldn't matter if 99.9% of people were against a civil or human right. That's why civil or human rights shouldn't be put to a vote. Because even if 99% of a population are bigots, that doesn't take away that 1%'s rights. Civil and human rights are not a matter of opinion. What if 99% of a population supported black slavery? Would that make it okay? No. Of course it wouldn't. So, to be clear, when you're talking about civil rights, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.

Yup.

And the reality is we already have real laws against doing bad things. We don't need to regulate personal things that truly affect no one.

I'm pretty tired of this conversation. Perhaps we should be banning the Catholic Church and priesthood if we want to stop sexual abuse.

C'mon, we are such a bunch of fucking morons that we let people that are suppose to be representing us and tackling tough issues distract us with BS issues that don't actual exist or cause and problems.

Go Beavers

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I have to admit that I don't understand the transgender phenomenon very well. It sure seems to be trending lately and humans love trending.

Are we sure that 'transitioning' is a natural aspect of the human psyche and that instead of treating the confused human... we are entertaining something we shouldn't?

Does asking this question make me intolerant?

It probably means you're ignorant about the subject and combining it with confusion about why people are pushing against the status quo, when you didn't see a problem with the status quo. Transgendered people have always been around. Sometimes our gender doesn't match our physical parts. Societal gender roles that are rigid make this even a larger struggle for the transgendered person. They aren't necessarily confused. And then whenever a minority group gets a more equal status, people respond with hostility. Some then see the hostility and will blame the minority group for 'rocking the boat' because everything seemed just fine in the past.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I have to admit that I don't understand the transgender phenomenon very well. It sure seems to be trending lately and humans love trending.

Are we sure that 'transitioning' is a natural aspect of the human psyche and that instead of treating the confused human... we are entertaining something we shouldn't?

Does asking this question make me intolerant?

It probably means you're ignorant about the subject and combining it with confusion about why people are pushing against the status quo, when you didn't see a problem with the status quo. Transgendered people have always been around. Sometimes our gender doesn't match our physical parts. Societal gender roles that are rigid make this even a larger struggle for the transgendered person. They aren't necessarily confused. And then whenever a minority group gets a more equal status, people respond with hostility. Some then see the hostility and will blame the minority group for 'rocking the boat' because everything seemed just fine in the past.

Maybe.

Kind of like how Michael Jackson identified as white even though he was born black? And then undergoing multiple surgeries to make himself appear as he felt he should?

You kind of spoke smugly about the topic, but you never actually answered my question: are we definitively sure that transitioning is a normal part of human nature?

I don't give two shits if someone wants to lop their pecker and balls off to become a female... and I don't give two shits where they take a dump either... I only ask what I did because a person transitioning defies nature and science. Is mutilating yourself to become what you are not the answer? It might be... but it might not be either.

Psychology is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination.

dignin

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I have to admit that I don't understand the transgender phenomenon very well. It sure seems to be trending lately and humans love trending.

Are we sure that 'transitioning' is a natural aspect of the human psyche and that instead of treating the confused human... we are entertaining something we shouldn't?

Does asking this question make me intolerant?

It probably means you're ignorant about the subject and combining it with confusion about why people are pushing against the status quo, when you didn't see a problem with the status quo. Transgendered people have always been around. Sometimes our gender doesn't match our physical parts. Societal gender roles that are rigid make this even a larger struggle for the transgendered person. They aren't necessarily confused. And then whenever a minority group gets a more equal status, people respond with hostility. Some then see the hostility and will blame the minority group for 'rocking the boat' because everything seemed just fine in the past.

Maybe.

Kind of like how Michael Jackson identified as white even though he was born black? And then undergoing multiple surgeries to make himself appear as he felt he should?

You kind of spoke smugly about the topic, but you never actually answered my question: are we definitively sure that transitioning is a normal part of human nature?

I don't give two shits if someone wants to lop their pecker and balls off to become a female... and I don't give two shits where they take a dump either... I only ask what I did because a person transitioning defies nature and science. Is mutilating yourself to become what you are not the answer? It might be... but it might not be either.

Psychology is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination.

I've heard a lot of people use this argument to describe "the gays"

You really want to be in that camp?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I have to admit that I don't understand the transgender phenomenon very well. It sure seems to be trending lately and humans love trending.

Are we sure that 'transitioning' is a natural aspect of the human psyche and that instead of treating the confused human... we are entertaining something we shouldn't?

Does asking this question make me intolerant?

It probably means you're ignorant about the subject and combining it with confusion about why people are pushing against the status quo, when you didn't see a problem with the status quo. Transgendered people have always been around. Sometimes our gender doesn't match our physical parts. Societal gender roles that are rigid make this even a larger struggle for the transgendered person. They aren't necessarily confused. And then whenever a minority group gets a more equal status, people respond with hostility. Some then see the hostility and will blame the minority group for 'rocking the boat' because everything seemed just fine in the past.

Maybe.

Kind of like how Michael Jackson identified as white even though he was born black? And then undergoing multiple surgeries to make himself appear as he felt he should?

You kind of spoke smugly about the topic, but you never actually answered my question: are we definitively sure that transitioning is a normal part of human nature?

I don't give two shits if someone wants to lop their pecker and balls off to become a female... and I don't give two shits where they take a dump either... I only ask what I did because a person transitioning defies nature and science. Is mutilating yourself to become what you are not the answer? It might be... but it might not be either.

Psychology is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination.

I've heard a lot of people use this argument to describe "the gays"

You really want to be in that camp?

A totally different issue and I'm not presenting an argument, I'm asking a question.

Edit: just saw you highlighted a section.

Sexual preference and love doesn't defy nature in my mind. Modifying your body through surgical procedure most certainly does though.

Go Beavers

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I have to admit that I don't understand the transgender phenomenon very well. It sure seems to be trending lately and humans love trending.

Are we sure that 'transitioning' is a natural aspect of the human psyche and that instead of treating the confused human... we are entertaining something we shouldn't?

Does asking this question make me intolerant?

It probably means you're ignorant about the subject and combining it with confusion about why people are pushing against the status quo, when you didn't see a problem with the status quo. Transgendered people have always been around. Sometimes our gender doesn't match our physical parts. Societal gender roles that are rigid make this even a larger struggle for the transgendered person. They aren't necessarily confused. And then whenever a minority group gets a more equal status, people respond with hostility. Some then see the hostility and will blame the minority group for 'rocking the boat' because everything seemed just fine in the past.

Maybe.

Kind of like how Michael Jackson identified as white even though he was born black? And then undergoing multiple surgeries to make himself appear as he felt he should?

You kind of spoke smugly about the topic, but you never actually answered my question: are we definitively sure that transitioning is a normal part of human nature?

I don't give two shits if someone wants to lop their pecker and balls off to become a female... and I don't give two shits where they take a dump either... I only ask what I did because a person transitioning defies nature and science. Is mutilating yourself to become what you are not the answer? It might be... but it might not be either.

Psychology is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination.

It's not similar to anything with Michael Jackson, and I am sure that transgender is a normal part of being human. It's not defying nature and science if it's always occurred throughout human history, and if someone has reassignment surgery, they are just using what's available through modern means to make more of their physical match their gender. Really, the aspect of psychology that comes into play is how the person deals and comes to terms with their gender identity.

tempo_n_groove

Thinking out loud.

I wonder if the psychological effects like depression and what not that a transgendered is having is because they are scared and don't know where to turn?

Didn't gay people have that same plight?

I'll admit that the transgender card still befuttles me but I'm learning more and trying to understand better.