Disappointed in PJ Fans Today

walkunafraid

patkelly12 said:

walkunafraid said:

patkelly12 said:

So what I take from this thread is that the band can't be expected to protest all the time. Just when Clooney & Co think it's a good time to protest. That's not sheepish at all.

The band should protest whatever they want, whenever they want, and however they want. Their political actions and beliefs are not less important than their supposed obligation to fans. If you are unhappy with their decision, stop buying their records, stop going to shows, stop paying for fan club membership, etc. Just as they have a right to do as they please, so do you have a right to do as you please. It has nothing to do with being sheep-like. For instance, you criticizing their decision after a shitload of other fans on here have done the same would make you a sheep by your own definition. Hell, let's just call everyone who participated in the March on Washington and other protests during the Civil Rights movement sheep, too -- I mean, the vast majority of them wouldn't have protested on their own if others hadn't started a protest and built momentum for it first. How many political or social movements have succeeded without a) people beginning a movement; and b) others following and lending support to that movement? This whole "sheep" thing is getting ridiculous.

When you do something to fit in (PJ has been wanted to be accepted by Hollywood for years now), you're a sheep. Just curious why they people of South Africa don't matter?. Like previous posters have already mentioned their record specifically on LGBTQ is lacking (fairly certain worse than NC - among other things). Again why doesn't the LGBTQ community in South Africa matter? Is it because the "cool kids" weren't really into that back then. Maybe it was lions or climate change. Sorry, folks - that's just bad timing. We can only be consumed with one shiny object at a time (until the next shinier one comes along). Thank God Clooney & Co are around to lead the way or who knows where the band would wind up.

I keep hearing this same argument, and it's absolutely ridiculous. The band has stood for a number of causes over the years, some highly publicized (Ticketmaster, West Memphis 3), others not so much (Crohn's disease, BP Amoco). Some of these the band has initiated, others they have joined after a movement has already started. Nobody in the history of mankind has ever taken action on every single issue happening in the world, and to expect that of the band would be absurd.

If everyone who ever took time to donate to a cause, or to speak out against a cause, or to volunteer in assistance of a cause was thereby obligated/expected to then participate in every instance of that same cause across around the world, nobody would every do anything positive, because that expectation/obligation would be both exhausting and impossible.

I've heard others mention that what differentiates North Carolina from other areas of LGBTQ repression around the world is that the lawmakers in NC took action to lessen rights that had previously been granted (as opposed to simply continuing on with the status quo that had been established long before), which is a serious step backward and a much more significant threat as, if allowed to proceed without protest or pressure, will very likely be replicated by other areas in the near future. That's a rational enough explanation to me, for those who feel like they need an explanation.

But at the end of the day, it's not up to you or anybody else to decide or proclaim why the band felt their cancellation of their North Carolina show was important and necessary, just as it's not up to the band or anybody else to tell you why you do the things you do.

Lifted

BE257117 said:

The ironic part of all of this is that the band just got done with a South American tour, where many countries have laws and cultures that are exponentially more repressive to the LGBT community and other minority groups such as women.

I understand why some people think this way, but i'll offer you the opposing logic which i think the band is following...in protest, you pick your battles. There is a wave of boycotting going on in NC right now and it's getting close to the tipping point where legislators are going to be forced to repeal hb2. Pearl Jam wanted to be apart of that, and good for them. Yes they've played in parts of the world with worse laws, even in the US, but them boycotting those places alone would make little difference in changing laws in those respective places. It's okay to give fans in backwards thinking parts of the world the opportunity to see them. Not all people living in those places agree with their laws. But in the case of NC, they saw the opportunity to be a part of a SUCCESSFUL protest and took it.

Bottom line is it was wishful thinking for fans who have followed this band over the years to think they were going to play this show. And if you haven't followed the band and were going, you were probably a local who wouldn't be impacted aside from maybe missing a work day. If i had tickets to NC, i certainly would've made sure to book a hotel that allows cancellation, and i would've paid ten bucks or whatever it is to have cancellation insurance on a flight. We all knew this was going to happen. There was a thread about it sticking on the main page since the beginning of april. Sucks for people who got screwed out of expenses, and the timing was certainly unfortunate...but it is what it is.

bootlegger10

Wishful thinking? Garbage....

Pearl Jam did very little in protest. What did they do but give themselves another day off on the tour and lose out on some cancellation fees that they'll make back tonight and then some in Columbia? Their 15,000 fans are the ones who they used in protest.

JP Losman

I'm disappointed in all pearl jam fans and a band that is supporting voter ID suppression tonight in South Carolina. oh, but poor black people don't deserve our efforts by a boycott. maybe we will just do a rant like we've done every other time there was a social cause worth fighting.

Mike D88

Jesus, if you want to go down that road, there's something "worth" protesting in every state of the Union. Give it a rest, the band picks their battles for effectiveness and I'd imagine for the causes they hold dear. You can't take on every cause everywhere, and to claim they should as a result of NC is a childish argument, borne of spite and not much else. The logical conclusion of that argument is that the band takes on zero causes, in which case I'd have to ask: Are you new here?

patkelly12

Clooney & Co will be picking their battles for them going forward. It will be much easier.

JP Losman

I'd ask them to be consistent or else they are hypocrites. Its fine if they don't care about voter suppression enough to do something like they did in NC. So they are hypocrites. Fine.

And yea, they are the ones who chose to go down that road. That's why you don't do things like cancel to fight HB2. You do what all the other artists who are not cancelling are doing. You play your show and if you use it as a chance to spread support to repeal the law. If you want (nobody is forcing you), donate proceeds to all the non profits fighting (which need the resources) and ultimately will win the day in court. But yea, saying you can't cross some imaginary picket line (which essentially is just Bruce) and saying in good conscience you can't play compared to other options, then you have painted yourself as a band that will go to these ends to fight for change. So do it. Own it. Don't play MSG and Philly because they are partners w/ NBA in order to put more pressure on the NBA to actually move the all star game from Charlotte (which is way bigger economic damage). Go all in when you do something this extreme. OR don't. Which is what we all expect. And continue on as great rockstars that when it comes to activism, are just cheap talk.

BE257117

Vedd Hedd said:

Dude....its a fucking concert. People's rights are at stake, they made a stand, it sucks for those that had tickets to the show.

But its a fucking concert. A CONCERT. 3 hours of music.

North carolina is beautiful. Spend the day on vacation with your friends, enjoy the sites. Jesus H, people are talking about suing the band?? This is over the edge, for a group of fans known for being over the edge. My god, have some perspective.

I genuinely feel bad for those that were excited for the concert....but its a fucking concert.

We are talking about 3 hours of entertainment here. Yes, the anticipation and the build up made this anlet down. But seriously....actual quotes....."we were used as pawns." "Pj doesnt give a shit about their fans". Wow, get over yourselves. This is some serious privileged lunacy here.

Fucking lawsuits...

IMO there is a some arrogance on PJ's part in thinking that them not playing is going to change this issue. At the very least, a lack of humility. How many people at that show would be from out of state? Half? Of that group of people, how many would actually be in agreement with the law? It seems the impact would be much greater if they played the show, used it as a call to oppose the bill, held a rally and fundraiser before the show, and then donated all of the show's proceeds to opposition groups. Instead, thousands of fans are left scrambling two days before the show. I wasn't planning on attending this show, but I don't think it's unreasonable for fans who were to be upset.

PJ_Soul

walkunafraid said:

patkelly12 said:

walkunafraid said:

patkelly12 said:

So what I take from this thread is that the band can't be expected to protest all the time. Just when Clooney & Co think it's a good time to protest. That's not sheepish at all.

The band should protest whatever they want, whenever they want, and however they want. Their political actions and beliefs are not less important than their supposed obligation to fans. If you are unhappy with their decision, stop buying their records, stop going to shows, stop paying for fan club membership, etc. Just as they have a right to do as they please, so do you have a right to do as you please. It has nothing to do with being sheep-like. For instance, you criticizing their decision after a shitload of other fans on here have done the same would make you a sheep by your own definition. Hell, let's just call everyone who participated in the March on Washington and other protests during the Civil Rights movement sheep, too -- I mean, the vast majority of them wouldn't have protested on their own if others hadn't started a protest and built momentum for it first. How many political or social movements have succeeded without a) people beginning a movement; and b) others following and lending support to that movement? This whole "sheep" thing is getting ridiculous.

When you do something to fit in (PJ has been wanted to be accepted by Hollywood for years now), you're a sheep. Just curious why they people of South Africa don't matter?. Like previous posters have already mentioned their record specifically on LGBTQ is lacking (fairly certain worse than NC - among other things). Again why doesn't the LGBTQ community in South Africa matter? Is it because the "cool kids" weren't really into that back then. Maybe it was lions or climate change. Sorry, folks - that's just bad timing. We can only be consumed with one shiny object at a time (until the next shinier one comes along). Thank God Clooney & Co are around to lead the way or who knows where the band would wind up.

I keep hearing this same argument, and it's absolutely ridiculous. The band has stood for a number of causes over the years, some highly publicized (Ticketmaster, West Memphis 3), others not so much (Crohn's disease, BP Amoco). Some of these the band has initiated, others they have joined after a movement has already started. Nobody in the history of mankind has ever taken action on every single issue happening in the world, and to expect that of the band would be absurd.

If everyone who ever took time to donate to a cause, or to speak out against a cause, or to volunteer in assistance of a cause was thereby obligated/expected to then participate in every instance of that same cause across around the world, nobody would every do anything positive, because that expectation/obligation would be both exhausting and impossible.

I've heard others mention that what differentiates North Carolina from other areas of LGBTQ repression around the world is that the lawmakers in NC took action to lessen rights that had previously been granted (as opposed to simply continuing on with the status quo that had been established long before), which is a serious step backward and a much more significant threat as, if allowed to proceed without protest or pressure, will very likely be replicated by other areas in the near future. That's a rational enough explanation to me, for those who feel like they need an explanation.

But at the end of the day, it's not up to you or anybody else to decide or proclaim why the band felt their cancellation of their North Carolina show was important and necessary, just as it's not up to the band or anybody else to tell you why you do the things you do.

Totally agree with you.

JP Losman

PJ_Soul said:

walkunafraid said:

patkelly12 said:

walkunafraid said:

patkelly12 said:

So what I take from this thread is that the band can't be expected to protest all the time. Just when Clooney & Co think it's a good time to protest. That's not sheepish at all.

The band should protest whatever they want, whenever they want, and however they want. Their political actions and beliefs are not less important than their supposed obligation to fans. If you are unhappy with their decision, stop buying their records, stop going to shows, stop paying for fan club membership, etc. Just as they have a right to do as they please, so do you have a right to do as you please. It has nothing to do with being sheep-like. For instance, you criticizing their decision after a shitload of other fans on here have done the same would make you a sheep by your own definition. Hell, let's just call everyone who participated in the March on Washington and other protests during the Civil Rights movement sheep, too -- I mean, the vast majority of them wouldn't have protested on their own if others hadn't started a protest and built momentum for it first. How many political or social movements have succeeded without a) people beginning a movement; and b) others following and lending support to that movement? This whole "sheep" thing is getting ridiculous.

When you do something to fit in (PJ has been wanted to be accepted by Hollywood for years now), you're a sheep. Just curious why they people of South Africa don't matter?. Like previous posters have already mentioned their record specifically on LGBTQ is lacking (fairly certain worse than NC - among other things). Again why doesn't the LGBTQ community in South Africa matter? Is it because the "cool kids" weren't really into that back then. Maybe it was lions or climate change. Sorry, folks - that's just bad timing. We can only be consumed with one shiny object at a time (until the next shinier one comes along). Thank God Clooney & Co are around to lead the way or who knows where the band would wind up.

I keep hearing this same argument, and it's absolutely ridiculous. The band has stood for a number of causes over the years, some highly publicized (Ticketmaster, West Memphis 3), others not so much (Crohn's disease, BP Amoco). Some of these the band has initiated, others they have joined after a movement has already started. Nobody in the history of mankind has ever taken action on every single issue happening in the world, and to expect that of the band would be absurd.

If everyone who ever took time to donate to a cause, or to speak out against a cause, or to volunteer in assistance of a cause was thereby obligated/expected to then participate in every instance of that same cause across around the world, nobody would every do anything positive, because that expectation/obligation would be both exhausting and impossible.

I've heard others mention that what differentiates North Carolina from other areas of LGBTQ repression around the world is that the lawmakers in NC took action to lessen rights that had previously been granted (as opposed to simply continuing on with the status quo that had been established long before), which is a serious step backward and a much more significant threat as, if allowed to proceed without protest or pressure, will very likely be replicated by other areas in the near future. That's a rational enough explanation to me, for those who feel like they need an explanation.

But at the end of the day, it's not up to you or anybody else to decide or proclaim why the band felt their cancellation of their North Carolina show was important and necessary, just as it's not up to the band or anybody else to tell you why you do the things you do.

Totally agree with you.

Voter suppression is TAKING AWAY rights that we had...the right to vote. That is a serious step backward. We fought long and hard for the right to vote. So there goes your rational explanation. They are hypocrites. Its okay that you love them and their music. I still love their music. I just see them for what they are now though - more frauds than activists.

PJ_Soul

JP Losman said:

PJ_Soul said:

walkunafraid said:

patkelly12 said:

walkunafraid said:

patkelly12 said:

So what I take from this thread is that the band can't be expected to protest all the time. Just when Clooney & Co think it's a good time to protest. That's not sheepish at all.

The band should protest whatever they want, whenever they want, and however they want. Their political actions and beliefs are not less important than their supposed obligation to fans. If you are unhappy with their decision, stop buying their records, stop going to shows, stop paying for fan club membership, etc. Just as they have a right to do as they please, so do you have a right to do as you please. It has nothing to do with being sheep-like. For instance, you criticizing their decision after a shitload of other fans on here have done the same would make you a sheep by your own definition. Hell, let's just call everyone who participated in the March on Washington and other protests during the Civil Rights movement sheep, too -- I mean, the vast majority of them wouldn't have protested on their own if others hadn't started a protest and built momentum for it first. How many political or social movements have succeeded without a) people beginning a movement; and b) others following and lending support to that movement? This whole "sheep" thing is getting ridiculous.

When you do something to fit in (PJ has been wanted to be accepted by Hollywood for years now), you're a sheep. Just curious why they people of South Africa don't matter?. Like previous posters have already mentioned their record specifically on LGBTQ is lacking (fairly certain worse than NC - among other things). Again why doesn't the LGBTQ community in South Africa matter? Is it because the "cool kids" weren't really into that back then. Maybe it was lions or climate change. Sorry, folks - that's just bad timing. We can only be consumed with one shiny object at a time (until the next shinier one comes along). Thank God Clooney & Co are around to lead the way or who knows where the band would wind up.

I keep hearing this same argument, and it's absolutely ridiculous. The band has stood for a number of causes over the years, some highly publicized (Ticketmaster, West Memphis 3), others not so much (Crohn's disease, BP Amoco). Some of these the band has initiated, others they have joined after a movement has already started. Nobody in the history of mankind has ever taken action on every single issue happening in the world, and to expect that of the band would be absurd.

If everyone who ever took time to donate to a cause, or to speak out against a cause, or to volunteer in assistance of a cause was thereby obligated/expected to then participate in every instance of that same cause across around the world, nobody would every do anything positive, because that expectation/obligation would be both exhausting and impossible.

I've heard others mention that what differentiates North Carolina from other areas of LGBTQ repression around the world is that the lawmakers in NC took action to lessen rights that had previously been granted (as opposed to simply continuing on with the status quo that had been established long before), which is a serious step backward and a much more significant threat as, if allowed to proceed without protest or pressure, will very likely be replicated by other areas in the near future. That's a rational enough explanation to me, for those who feel like they need an explanation.

But at the end of the day, it's not up to you or anybody else to decide or proclaim why the band felt their cancellation of their North Carolina show was important and necessary, just as it's not up to the band or anybody else to tell you why you do the things you do.

Totally agree with you.

Voter suppression is TAKING AWAY rights that we had...the right to vote. That is a serious step backward. We fought long and hard for the right to vote. So there goes your rational explanation. They are hypocrites. Its okay that you love them and their music. I still love their music. I just see them for what they are now though - more frauds than activists.

Huh? I don't really feel like you are making any kind of rational argument.

camsjam

PJ_Soul said:

JP Losman said:

PJ_Soul said:

walkunafraid said:

patkelly12 said:

walkunafraid said:

patkelly12 said:

So what I take from this thread is that the band can't be expected to protest all the time. Just when Clooney & Co think it's a good time to protest. That's not sheepish at all.

The band should protest whatever they want, whenever they want, and however they want. Their political actions and beliefs are not less important than their supposed obligation to fans. If you are unhappy with their decision, stop buying their records, stop going to shows, stop paying for fan club membership, etc. Just as they have a right to do as they please, so do you have a right to do as you please. It has nothing to do with being sheep-like. For instance, you criticizing their decision after a shitload of other fans on here have done the same would make you a sheep by your own definition. Hell, let's just call everyone who participated in the March on Washington and other protests during the Civil Rights movement sheep, too -- I mean, the vast majority of them wouldn't have protested on their own if others hadn't started a protest and built momentum for it first. How many political or social movements have succeeded without a) people beginning a movement; and b) others following and lending support to that movement? This whole "sheep" thing is getting ridiculous.

When you do something to fit in (PJ has been wanted to be accepted by Hollywood for years now), you're a sheep. Just curious why they people of South Africa don't matter?. Like previous posters have already mentioned their record specifically on LGBTQ is lacking (fairly certain worse than NC - among other things). Again why doesn't the LGBTQ community in South Africa matter? Is it because the "cool kids" weren't really into that back then. Maybe it was lions or climate change. Sorry, folks - that's just bad timing. We can only be consumed with one shiny object at a time (until the next shinier one comes along). Thank God Clooney & Co are around to lead the way or who knows where the band would wind up.

I keep hearing this same argument, and it's absolutely ridiculous. The band has stood for a number of causes over the years, some highly publicized (Ticketmaster, West Memphis 3), others not so much (Crohn's disease, BP Amoco). Some of these the band has initiated, others they have joined after a movement has already started. Nobody in the history of mankind has ever taken action on every single issue happening in the world, and to expect that of the band would be absurd.

If everyone who ever took time to donate to a cause, or to speak out against a cause, or to volunteer in assistance of a cause was thereby obligated/expected to then participate in every instance of that same cause across around the world, nobody would every do anything positive, because that expectation/obligation would be both exhausting and impossible.

I've heard others mention that what differentiates North Carolina from other areas of LGBTQ repression around the world is that the lawmakers in NC took action to lessen rights that had previously been granted (as opposed to simply continuing on with the status quo that had been established long before), which is a serious step backward and a much more significant threat as, if allowed to proceed without protest or pressure, will very likely be replicated by other areas in the near future. That's a rational enough explanation to me, for those who feel like they need an explanation.

But at the end of the day, it's not up to you or anybody else to decide or proclaim why the band felt their cancellation of their North Carolina show was important and necessary, just as it's not up to the band or anybody else to tell you why you do the things you do.

Totally agree with you.

Voter suppression is TAKING AWAY rights that we had...the right to vote. That is a serious step backward. We fought long and hard for the right to vote. So there goes your rational explanation. They are hypocrites. Its okay that you love them and their music. I still love their music. I just see them for what they are now though - more frauds than activists.

Huh? I don't really feel like you are making any kind of rational argument.

+1. Voter suppression? Not sure where you are going with this...

walkunafraid

BE257117 said:

Vedd Hedd said:

Dude....its a fucking concert. People's rights are at stake, they made a stand, it sucks for those that had tickets to the show.

But its a fucking concert. A CONCERT. 3 hours of music.

North carolina is beautiful. Spend the day on vacation with your friends, enjoy the sites. Jesus H, people are talking about suing the band?? This is over the edge, for a group of fans known for being over the edge. My god, have some perspective.

I genuinely feel bad for those that were excited for the concert....but its a fucking concert.

We are talking about 3 hours of entertainment here. Yes, the anticipation and the build up made this anlet down. But seriously....actual quotes....."we were used as pawns." "Pj doesnt give a shit about their fans". Wow, get over yourselves. This is some serious privileged lunacy here.

Fucking lawsuits...

IMO there is a some arrogance on PJ's part in thinking that them not playing is going to change this issue. At the very least, a lack of humility. How many people at that show would be from out of state? Half? Of that group of people, how many would actually be in agreement with the law? It seems the impact would be much greater if they played the show, used it as a call to oppose the bill, held a rally and fundraiser before the show, and then donated all of the show's proceeds to opposition groups. Instead, thousands of fans are left scrambling two days before the show. I wasn't planning on attending this show, but I don't think it's unreasonable for fans who were to be upset.

I think you're completely missing the point of the cancellation. It had nothing to do with getting a point across to the fans attending the show, or to the people of the state in general. The point of the cancellation -- and the boycotting of the state by other groups and companies -- was to impact the state financially in order to put pressure on lawmakers to overturn the bill. The fact that 50% of the attendees may have been from out-of-state actually emphasizes the strength of the action, because the boycotts are all about hurting the state in its pocketbook by limiting the amount of tourist dollars generated by events and business.

As cool as the idea of speaking out against the bill at the show, holding a rally, donating proceeds, etc. may be, it's impact -- in contrast to your post -- would have been FAR less than the impact of cancelling the show altogether. That show/rally would have reached the fans in the stadium (most, as you say, who already oppose the bill), and the money generated the show absolutely pales in comparison to the revenue generated by the event as a whole, especially if you put it in context of a larger movement. Imagine how quickly the state's economy would collapse if the number of artists/businesses refusing to do business in NC grew into the hundreds, or thousands...and imagine how quickly lawmakers would have to repeal the law in order to prevent a total disaster. Let's face it, though the band may an impact on a comparably tiny fragment of the overall population, politicians aren't going to lose sleep over Eddie and co. speaking out at a concert and donating money from a show to oppose them. But a dramatic loss of tourism and business and the dollars both generate, that's hitting them where it hurts.

18th Pale Descendant

IMO there is a some arrogance on PJ's part in thinking that them not playing is going to change this issue. At the very least, a lack of humility.

HB2 will not stand, and I think most sensible people agree on that point. But it's debatable, at best, that the decision by a few rock stars to take their ball and go home will trigger that change.

I call (sanctimonious) bullshit. Common sense will prevail. Yes, even in the South, where to judge from the tenor of some comments in cyberspace, we all drive pickup trucks with stalks of wheat clenched in our teeth and bibles on our dashboards.

JP Losman

People don't understand voter suppression and hot it relates? Do any of you follow the voter id laws in South Carolina and how they are enforced? It is bad discrimination.

And I hear that PJ did a typical greedy corporation, world is getting warmer diatribe last night in SC. Their next show is Jazzfest sponsored by Shell Oil.

The hypocrisy is ridiculous. Its okay to separate your love of the music and the band not being genuine about their activism.

Jason P

PJ_Soul said:

To be totally honest, i don't feel like the band should give a second thought to the travel expenses of those who booked non-refundable trips to attend their shows. I don't see that as the band's problem at all.

You are aware that the bands success and longevity depends on a fanbase who passionately travels to see them, often multiple shows per tour, correct? And that pre-planning is involved in that process as well?

RoleModelsinBlood31

5 star thread. Would read again. Would recommend to friends and family.

PJlive

Um, Last I checked.... Voters in South Carolina who do not have photo identification can still vote. Check your facts there homeboy!!!!

PJlive

South Carolina’s voter ID is far less strict than many of the other 35 states that have passed laws to require voters to show identification at the polls.

Keep trying to piss in the bowl.... Your missing....

JP Losman

PJlive said:

South Carolina’s voter ID is far less strict than many of the other 35 states that have passed laws to require voters to show identification at the polls.

Keep trying to piss in the bowl.... Your missing....

Looks like we found ourselves a Republican.