EH,I echo what Lolo said.We are a bunch of cranky old fuckers.Like walking into a red ant hill. I've put 3 thru college.2 are still there.We know all about your struggles and commitment and I can tell you all of us Moms and Dads on here are in your corner and pulling for you,regardless of the debate de jour.We are not as disconnected from youth as you may think.
Just remember. A degree is good and all but A combine tractor mechanic working for Catapiller makes 150,000 a year.My point is There are many good options other then 200k in dept.So no need to stress.You can still be very successful without a college degree.Hard work and good mind will take you wherever you need to go.If your passion needs a degree then go get it.But many paths you can follow.And I'll echo something my 25 yo son said recently when we were discussing this stuff."No one has ever asked to see my degree or diploma in any interview.just a piece of paper.How you interview and your personality makes more of a difference"
I know someone who never went to college, but his resume said he did and is very high up in a very big tech company. All because of that first job he applied for.
Yeah that would never happen for someone in my generation. That's great that generations before us got to do that, but now the world is just simply expecting more of us.
And to people who think that it isn't harder to get into good colleges now, you need to look at simple stats. More people are applying now than ever, which brings in more competition and a better applicant field. The worlds changing and not for the better, the least people can do is not be ignorant towards it.
EH is right. It's ungodly expensive, bachelor's are a dime a dozen, almost equivalent to a HS diploma for those coming into the work force. The trade jobs are great and I have tremendous respect for them, but I would not want my son working construction at 50, or hanging drywall. Someone has to do it and I respect that work, but I'm pushing my kids for something different. Factory jobs are too risky long term. They will be automated or outsourced.
Your thinking to narrow minded.If your son is bright and works hard,gets his license he could be a developer,custom home Builder,Specialty tradesman,Own that multi million dollar drywall company,Own his own garage.Run job sites,become a specialty trade builder etc. Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it. I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
EH,I echo what Lolo said.We are a bunch of cranky old fuckers.Like walking into a red ant hill. I've put 3 thru college.2 are still there.We know all about your struggles and commitment and I can tell you all of us Moms and Dads on here are in your corner and pulling for you,regardless of the debate de jour.We are not as disconnected from youth as you may think.
Just remember. A degree is good and all but A combine tractor mechanic working for Catapiller makes 150,000 a year.My point is There are many good options other then 200k in dept.So no need to stress.You can still be very successful without a college degree.Hard work and good mind will take you wherever you need to go.If your passion needs a degree then go get it.But many paths you can follow.And I'll echo something my 25 yo son said recently when we were discussing this stuff."No one has ever asked to see my degree or diploma in any interview.just a piece of paper.How you interview and your personality makes more of a difference"
I know someone who never went to college, but his resume said he did and is very high up in a very big tech company. All because of that first job he applied for.
Yeah that would never happen for someone in my generation. That's great that generations before us got to do that, but now the world is just simply expecting more of us.
And to people who think that it isn't harder to get into good colleges now, you need to look at simple stats. More people are applying now than ever, which brings in more competition and a better applicant field. The worlds changing and not for the better, the least people can do is not be ignorant towards it.
EH is right. It's ungodly expensive, bachelor's are a dime a dozen, almost equivalent to a HS diploma for those coming into the work force. The trade jobs are great and I have tremendous respect for them, but I would not want my son working construction at 50, or hanging drywall. Someone has to do it and I respect that work, but I'm pushing my kids for something different. Factory jobs are too risky long term. They will be automated or outsourced.
Your thinking to narrow minded.If your son is bright and works hard,gets his license he could be a developer,custom home Builder,Specialty tradesman,Own that multi million dollar drywall company,Own his own garage.Run job sites,become a specialty trade builder etc. Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it. I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
Listen dude. My father was a Ukrainian immigrant who never got out of the 8th and was an electrician. He broke his back when I was 2 years old when he was a custodian in Cleveland City Schools. I watched him wither away and he was dead by my 19th birthday. I worked in restaurants from the time I was 14 until I lucked out my senior year in college and landed at a great company and went straight white collar. So as I said earlier, I'm having my kids play the probabilities. I don't want them to be blue collar. I am from a straight blue collar, immigrant family and it's hard as hell. I watched all my uncles, father, etc. die early and debilitated. Could they start a chain of home builders or import Chinese drywall? Yeah, of course. And if one of them struggles to get through college, then I'll adjust how I try to coach or lead them through the next phase of their life. So my thinking isn't narrow, but while they are in HS getting ready to college, I'm not preaching the trades to them. I'm playing the odds.
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,795
edited February 2016
Judgmental, assumptive, mean.
The love he receives is the love that is saved
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Sorry to those offended. But he said it himself. I didn't say it to be mean I said it to be hurtful, it's an obvious statement.
I sure hope this was a mis-edit.
(and pretty sure most of us are too damned familiar with how fleeting life can be)
That said, really proud of some of my fellow posters here
Proud of your fellow posters for attacking me when I didn't mean to personally offend? I even apologize!
I said no such thing and not sure how you jumped to that conclusion (despite your lack of clarification in what I quoted; the intent was to be hurtful or it was indeed a mis-edit?).
I am proud of their eloquence and their character.
EH,I echo what Lolo said.We are a bunch of cranky old fuckers.Like walking into a red ant hill. I've put 3 thru college.2 are still there.We know all about your struggles and commitment and I can tell you all of us Moms and Dads on here are in your corner and pulling for you,regardless of the debate de jour.We are not as disconnected from youth as you may think.
Just remember. A degree is good and all but A combine tractor mechanic working for Catapiller makes 150,000 a year.My point is There are many good options other then 200k in dept.So no need to stress.You can still be very successful without a college degree.Hard work and good mind will take you wherever you need to go.If your passion needs a degree then go get it.But many paths you can follow.And I'll echo something my 25 yo son said recently when we were discussing this stuff."No one has ever asked to see my degree or diploma in any interview.just a piece of paper.How you interview and your personality makes more of a difference"
I know someone who never went to college, but his resume said he did and is very high up in a very big tech company. All because of that first job he applied for.
Yeah that would never happen for someone in my generation. That's great that generations before us got to do that, but now the world is just simply expecting more of us.
And to people who think that it isn't harder to get into good colleges now, you need to look at simple stats. More people are applying now than ever, which brings in more competition and a better applicant field. The worlds changing and not for the better, the least people can do is not be ignorant towards it.
EH is right. It's ungodly expensive, bachelor's are a dime a dozen, almost equivalent to a HS diploma for those coming into the work force. The trade jobs are great and I have tremendous respect for them, but I would not want my son working construction at 50, or hanging drywall. Someone has to do it and I respect that work, but I'm pushing my kids for something different. Factory jobs are too risky long term. They will be automated or outsourced.
Your thinking to narrow minded.If your son is bright and works hard,gets his license he could be a developer,custom home Builder,Specialty tradesman,Own that multi million dollar drywall company,Own his own garage.Run job sites,become a specialty trade builder etc. Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it. I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
A lot of people don't want to be these things, including me. My goal in life is to be happy, not make money, so I'd rather have a job that i got $50k a year from that i like than a job i don't like that i make 6 figures for.
Listen to some of my music here (if you want to):
[url="My soundcloud"]
EH,I echo what Lolo said.We are a bunch of cranky old fuckers.Like walking into a red ant hill. I've put 3 thru college.2 are still there.We know all about your struggles and commitment and I can tell you all of us Moms and Dads on here are in your corner and pulling for you,regardless of the debate de jour.We are not as disconnected from youth as you may think.
Just remember. A degree is good and all but A combine tractor mechanic working for Catapiller makes 150,000 a year.My point is There are many good options other then 200k in dept.So no need to stress.You can still be very successful without a college degree.Hard work and good mind will take you wherever you need to go.If your passion needs a degree then go get it.But many paths you can follow.And I'll echo something my 25 yo son said recently when we were discussing this stuff."No one has ever asked to see my degree or diploma in any interview.just a piece of paper.How you interview and your personality makes more of a difference"
I know someone who never went to college, but his resume said he did and is very high up in a very big tech company. All because of that first job he applied for.
Yeah that would never happen for someone in my generation. That's great that generations before us got to do that, but now the world is just simply expecting more of us.
And to people who think that it isn't harder to get into good colleges now, you need to look at simple stats. More people are applying now than ever, which brings in more competition and a better applicant field. The worlds changing and not for the better, the least people can do is not be ignorant towards it.
EH is right. It's ungodly expensive, bachelor's are a dime a dozen, almost equivalent to a HS diploma for those coming into the work force. The trade jobs are great and I have tremendous respect for them, but I would not want my son working construction at 50, or hanging drywall. Someone has to do it and I respect that work, but I'm pushing my kids for something different. Factory jobs are too risky long term. They will be automated or outsourced.
Your thinking to narrow minded.If your son is bright and works hard,gets his license he could be a developer,custom home Builder,Specialty tradesman,Own that multi million dollar drywall company,Own his own garage.Run job sites,become a specialty trade builder etc. Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it. I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
A lot of people don't want to be these things, including me. My goal in life is to be happy, not make money, so I'd rather have a job that i got $50k a year from that i like than a job i don't like that i make 6 figures for.
That is exactly what I'm trying to say, thank you.
EH,I echo what Lolo said.We are a bunch of cranky old fuckers.Like walking into a red ant hill. I've put 3 thru college.2 are still there.We know all about your struggles and commitment and I can tell you all of us Moms and Dads on here are in your corner and pulling for you,regardless of the debate de jour.We are not as disconnected from youth as you may think.
Just remember. A degree is good and all but A combine tractor mechanic working for Catapiller makes 150,000 a year.My point is There are many good options other then 200k in dept.So no need to stress.You can still be very successful without a college degree.Hard work and good mind will take you wherever you need to go.If your passion needs a degree then go get it.But many paths you can follow.And I'll echo something my 25 yo son said recently when we were discussing this stuff."No one has ever asked to see my degree or diploma in any interview.just a piece of paper.How you interview and your personality makes more of a difference"
I know someone who never went to college, but his resume said he did and is very high up in a very big tech company. All because of that first job he applied for.
Yeah that would never happen for someone in my generation. That's great that generations before us got to do that, but now the world is just simply expecting more of us.
And to people who think that it isn't harder to get into good colleges now, you need to look at simple stats. More people are applying now than ever, which brings in more competition and a better applicant field. The worlds changing and not for the better, the least people can do is not be ignorant towards it.
EH is right. It's ungodly expensive, bachelor's are a dime a dozen, almost equivalent to a HS diploma for those coming into the work force. The trade jobs are great and I have tremendous respect for them, but I would not want my son working construction at 50, or hanging drywall. Someone has to do it and I respect that work, but I'm pushing my kids for something different. Factory jobs are too risky long term. They will be automated or outsourced.
Your thinking to narrow minded.If your son is bright and works hard,gets his license he could be a developer,custom home Builder,Specialty tradesman,Own that multi million dollar drywall company,Own his own garage.Run job sites,become a specialty trade builder etc. Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it. I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
A lot of people don't want to be these things, including me. My goal in life is to be happy, not make money, so I'd rather have a job that i got $50k a year from that i like than a job i don't like that i make 6 figures for.
That is exactly what I'm trying to say, thank you.
Right, but you're still at the Median Household Income at that 'lower' number of 50k. Which means you will likely need a college degree. And in my experience, a 50k a year professional works just as hard as 100k. It's about scope that creates the income difference.
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,795
I know my opinion won't ring true to some but you can have both a great paycheck and a happy life.
EH,I echo what Lolo said.We are a bunch of cranky old fuckers.Like walking into a red ant hill. I've put 3 thru college.2 are still there.We know all about your struggles and commitment and I can tell you all of us Moms and Dads on here are in your corner and pulling for you,regardless of the debate de jour.We are not as disconnected from youth as you may think.
Just remember. A degree is good and all but A combine tractor mechanic working for Catapiller makes 150,000 a year.My point is There are many good options other then 200k in dept.So no need to stress.You can still be very successful without a college degree.Hard work and good mind will take you wherever you need to go.If your passion needs a degree then go get it.But many paths you can follow.And I'll echo something my 25 yo son said recently when we were discussing this stuff."No one has ever asked to see my degree or diploma in any interview.just a piece of paper.How you interview and your personality makes more of a difference"
I know someone who never went to college, but his resume said he did and is very high up in a very big tech company. All because of that first job he applied for.
Yeah that would never happen for someone in my generation. That's great that generations before us got to do that, but now the world is just simply expecting more of us.
And to people who think that it isn't harder to get into good colleges now, you need to look at simple stats. More people are applying now than ever, which brings in more competition and a better applicant field. The worlds changing and not for the better, the least people can do is not be ignorant towards it.
EH is right. It's ungodly expensive, bachelor's are a dime a dozen, almost equivalent to a HS diploma for those coming into the work force. The trade jobs are great and I have tremendous respect for them, but I would not want my son working construction at 50, or hanging drywall. Someone has to do it and I respect that work, but I'm pushing my kids for something different. Factory jobs are too risky long term. They will be automated or outsourced.
Your thinking to narrow minded.If your son is bright and works hard,gets his license he could be a developer,custom home Builder,Specialty tradesman,Own that multi million dollar drywall company,Own his own garage.Run job sites,become a specialty trade builder etc. Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it. I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
A lot of people don't want to be these things, including me. My goal in life is to be happy, not make money, so I'd rather have a job that i got $50k a year from that i like than a job i don't like that i make 6 figures for.
Become a ski instructor for the winter and a fly fishing guide for the summer and live in Colorado.
I don't think enough parents preach the other options for their kids enough.Specialty schools teaching Trades,make up artist and fashion designbroadcasting,Production of music and video,culinary,Mechanical,Nursing,etc.Although not traditional educationThis fields can be in line with a young persons passion and with a good work ethic and some basic bookkeeping skills you can turn a trade into a well paying career and be a professional making a very good living.
you cons keep busting up the unions and there will be nobody going to trade schools.
True.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
EH,I echo what Lolo said.We are a bunch of cranky old fuckers.Like walking into a red ant hill. I've put 3 thru college.2 are still there.We know all about your struggles and commitment and I can tell you all of us Moms and Dads on here are in your corner and pulling for you,regardless of the debate de jour.We are not as disconnected from youth as you may think.
Just remember. A degree is good and all but A combine tractor mechanic working for Catapiller makes 150,000 a year.My point is There are many good options other then 200k in dept.So no need to stress.You can still be very successful without a college degree.Hard work and good mind will take you wherever you need to go.If your passion needs a degree then go get it.But many paths you can follow.And I'll echo something my 25 yo son said recently when we were discussing this stuff."No one has ever asked to see my degree or diploma in any interview.just a piece of paper.How you interview and your personality makes more of a difference"
I know someone who never went to college, but his resume said he did and is very high up in a very big tech company. All because of that first job he applied for.
Yeah that would never happen for someone in my generation. That's great that generations before us got to do that, but now the world is just simply expecting more of us.
And to people who think that it isn't harder to get into good colleges now, you need to look at simple stats. More people are applying now than ever, which brings in more competition and a better applicant field. The worlds changing and not for the better, the least people can do is not be ignorant towards it.
EH is right. It's ungodly expensive, bachelor's are a dime a dozen, almost equivalent to a HS diploma for those coming into the work force. The trade jobs are great and I have tremendous respect for them, but I would not want my son working construction at 50, or hanging drywall. Someone has to do it and I respect that work, but I'm pushing my kids for something different. Factory jobs are too risky long term. They will be automated or outsourced.
Your thinking to narrow minded.If your son is bright and works hard,gets his license he could be a developer,custom home Builder,Specialty tradesman,Own that multi million dollar drywall company,Own his own garage.Run job sites,become a specialty trade builder etc. Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it. I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
Listen dude. My father was a Ukrainian immigrant who never got out of the 8th and was an electrician. He broke his back when I was 2 years old when he was a custodian in Cleveland City Schools. I watched him wither away and he was dead by my 19th birthday. I worked in restaurants from the time I was 14 until I lucked out my senior year in college and landed at a great company and went straight white collar. So as I said earlier, I'm having my kids play the probabilities. I don't want them to be blue collar. I am from a straight blue collar, immigrant family and it's hard as hell. I watched all my uncles, father, etc. die early and debilitated. Could they start a chain of home builders or import Chinese drywall? Yeah, of course. And if one of them struggles to get through college, then I'll adjust how I try to coach or lead them through the next phase of their life. So my thinking isn't narrow, but while they are in HS getting ready to college, I'm not preaching the trades to them. I'm playing the odds.
That's funny (not funny haha, and sorry about your dad), because of all of my friends, the ones who are most financially and personally successful are the ones in the trades ... or "blue collar" as you so quaintly put it, lol. Can a guy who brings home over $100K a year by running his own plumbing and gas fitting business or a guy who earns $80K as an electrician still be called blue collar? I don't know, but either way, it doesn't sound like something I'd plan on specifically persuading my kids against. I'd make sure my kids know all their options and what the benefits are for both trades and non-trades. I think the terms blue collar and white collar are ridiculous though, because the inference is that white collar is better than blue collar. And it's not. Both have positives and negatives, both can provide success or failure. Both are viable avenues.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
EH,I echo what Lolo said.We are a bunch of cranky old fuckers.Like walking into a red ant hill. I've put 3 thru college.2 are still there.We know all about your struggles and commitment and I can tell you all of us Moms and Dads on here are in your corner and pulling for you,regardless of the debate de jour.We are not as disconnected from youth as you may think.
Just remember. A degree is good and all but A combine tractor mechanic working for Catapiller makes 150,000 a year.My point is There are many good options other then 200k in dept.So no need to stress.You can still be very successful without a college degree.Hard work and good mind will take you wherever you need to go.If your passion needs a degree then go get it.But many paths you can follow.And I'll echo something my 25 yo son said recently when we were discussing this stuff."No one has ever asked to see my degree or diploma in any interview.just a piece of paper.How you interview and your personality makes more of a difference"
I know someone who never went to college, but his resume said he did and is very high up in a very big tech company. All because of that first job he applied for.
Yeah that would never happen for someone in my generation. That's great that generations before us got to do that, but now the world is just simply expecting more of us.
And to people who think that it isn't harder to get into good colleges now, you need to look at simple stats. More people are applying now than ever, which brings in more competition and a better applicant field. The worlds changing and not for the better, the least people can do is not be ignorant towards it.
EH is right. It's ungodly expensive, bachelor's are a dime a dozen, almost equivalent to a HS diploma for those coming into the work force. The trade jobs are great and I have tremendous respect for them, but I would not want my son working construction at 50, or hanging drywall. Someone has to do it and I respect that work, but I'm pushing my kids for something different. Factory jobs are too risky long term. They will be automated or outsourced.
Your thinking to narrow minded.If your son is bright and works hard,gets his license he could be a developer,custom home Builder,Specialty tradesman,Own that multi million dollar drywall company,Own his own garage.Run job sites,become a specialty trade builder etc. Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it. I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
A lot of people don't want to be these things, including me. My goal in life is to be happy, not make money, so I'd rather have a job that i got $50k a year from that i like than a job i don't like that i make 6 figures for.
Become a ski instructor for the winter and a fly fishing guide for the summer and live in Colorado.
A friend of mine was an instructor in Steamboat. He fixed cars in the summer. He came back by his late 20's.. broke and unable to support the family that he wanted to start. Sounds great when you're young, single and need little. Changes when you have daycare, health insurance, diapers, saving for tuition, etc. It's certainly a great life and I respect people who can do it, but it takes a lot of sacrifices.
Why should I pay for all this extra stuff Bernie and Hillary want to do? I am a self made man. I went into the Marine Corps at 19. I earned my GI Bill and used that to better myself in my late 20's when I went back to school. I took a bus for 6 hours to get from school to work, slept a few hours and repeated that process the next day. I worked hard to get where I am at. Anyone could have done what I did. No one gave me anything. So when I see Bernie and Hillary wanting to pay for all this extra stuff I say fuck that. They will push me down to raise others up. I say hell no. They can fund their communist plans in another country.
Say yes to the American dream again. Say yes to Rubio in 2016! He may be a robot but at least he gets it. Or his people do, either way Rubio in 2016!
Back to the OP.. Isn't this true of anything the gov't does? In other words, why not say fuck public schooling, SCHIP, Medicaid, Medicare, SSA, etc.? Where do you personally draw the line?
For me, a social liberal, fiscal moderate and foreign policy conservative (note: not Rubio/Neocon, but a true conservative), I think universal health care is even more important than public schools. Health and living is above education the Hierarchy of Needs, so I think there is a moral imperative for this. I don't necessarily think single payer is the answer, mostly because I know it can't be done today. Regarding education, I don't think the gov't should provide free university. States can choose to do that and certain states like CA and GA do it inexpensively. But the gov't does provide loans at exceedingly low interest rates with friendly deferments. I think this is enough. Plus I don't think you should be able to discharge them in any situation. Regarding the effective tax rate, my guess is that if you have a mortgage, you're actual federal tax rate is quite low. Probably in the 16-20% range, presuming you didn't earn a ton that is subject to capital gains. I don't think the fed tax rate is outrageous at all today.
So we are back to the origins of this thread.If being happy but broke is appealing then vote for Bernie.Im sure if hes in office you will get plenty of free shit.Wont need to pay much in taxes,higher wage earners will pay your share.Looks like a solid life plan.
I dont know.I guess the thought of more income,less taxes appeals to me more.im old fashioned that way
EH,I echo what Lolo said.We are a bunch of cranky old fuckers.Like walking into a red ant hill. I've put 3 thru college.2 are still there.We know all about your struggles and commitment and I can tell you all of us Moms and Dads on here are in your corner and pulling for you,regardless of the debate de jour.We are not as disconnected from youth as you may think.
Just remember. A degree is good and all but A combine tractor mechanic working for Catapiller makes 150,000 a year.My point is There are many good options other then 200k in dept.So no need to stress.You can still be very successful without a college degree.Hard work and good mind will take you wherever you need to go.If your passion needs a degree then go get it.But many paths you can follow.And I'll echo something my 25 yo son said recently when we were discussing this stuff."No one has ever asked to see my degree or diploma in any interview.just a piece of paper.How you interview and your personality makes more of a difference"
I know someone who never went to college, but his resume said he did and is very high up in a very big tech company. All because of that first job he applied for.
Yeah that would never happen for someone in my generation. That's great that generations before us got to do that, but now the world is just simply expecting more of us.
And to people who think that it isn't harder to get into good colleges now, you need to look at simple stats. More people are applying now than ever, which brings in more competition and a better applicant field. The worlds changing and not for the better, the least people can do is not be ignorant towards it.
EH is right. It's ungodly expensive, bachelor's are a dime a dozen, almost equivalent to a HS diploma for those coming into the work force. The trade jobs are great and I have tremendous respect for them, but I would not want my son working construction at 50, or hanging drywall. Someone has to do it and I respect that work, but I'm pushing my kids for something different. Factory jobs are too risky long term. They will be automated or outsourced.
Your thinking to narrow minded.If your son is bright and works hard,gets his license he could be a developer,custom home Builder,Specialty tradesman,Own that multi million dollar drywall company,Own his own garage.Run job sites,become a specialty trade builder etc. Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it. I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
Listen dude. My father was a Ukrainian immigrant who never got out of the 8th and was an electrician. He broke his back when I was 2 years old when he was a custodian in Cleveland City Schools. I watched him wither away and he was dead by my 19th birthday. I worked in restaurants from the time I was 14 until I lucked out my senior year in college and landed at a great company and went straight white collar. So as I said earlier, I'm having my kids play the probabilities. I don't want them to be blue collar. I am from a straight blue collar, immigrant family and it's hard as hell. I watched all my uncles, father, etc. die early and debilitated. Could they start a chain of home builders or import Chinese drywall? Yeah, of course. And if one of them struggles to get through college, then I'll adjust how I try to coach or lead them through the next phase of their life. So my thinking isn't narrow, but while they are in HS getting ready to college, I'm not preaching the trades to them. I'm playing the odds.
That's funny (not funny haha, and sorry about your dad), because of all of my friends, the ones who are most financially and personally successful are the ones in the trades ... or "blue collar" as you so quaintly put it, lol. Can a guy who brings home over $100K a year by running his own plumbing and gas fitting business or a guy who earns $80K as an electrician still be called blue collar? I don't know, but either way, it doesn't sound like something I'd plan on specifically persuading my kids against. I'd make sure my kids know all their options and what the benefits are for both trades and non-trades. I think the terms blue collar and white collar are ridiculous though, because the inference is that white collar is better than blue collar. And it's not. Both have positives and negatives, both can provide success or failure. Both are viable avenues.
But your examples are the owners of the business. Those are the ones that make the six figure salaries, not the 95% of the workers underneath them. So again, we're back to probabilities. It is more probable to earn that middle to upper middle class salary in the white collar world than blue collar, and preserve your body while doing it. You are also more likely to have a 401K, health insurance, paid vacation and other quality of life benefits. And those business owners of the tool & dye maker, pipefitters, etc. become white collar as they will reduce their physical labor contribution in their business.
And FYI, blue collar is neither a denigrating term or quaint. It's a fairly easy way to distinguish tradesman from an office worker.
So we are back to the origins of this thread.If being happy but broke is appealing then vote for Bernie.Im sure if hes in office you will get plenty of free shit.Wont need to pay much in taxes,higher wage earners will pay your share.Looks like a solid life plan.
I dont know.I guess the thought of more income,less taxes appeals to me more.im old fashioned that way
LOL! Right back to square one. Did you see my comment soon earlier that stated that Americans pay more for health care because you pay insurance companies and out-of-pocket. It's actually cheaper for citizens in countries with higher taxes covering universal healthcare than it is for Americans.
So, you better not get sick or injured. But if you do, remember this. Higher taxes bad!
So we are back to the origins of this thread.If being happy but broke is appealing then vote for Bernie.Im sure if hes in office you will get plenty of free shit.Wont need to pay much in taxes,higher wage earners will pay your share.Looks like a solid life plan.
I dont know.I guess the thought of more income,less taxes appeals to me more.im old fashioned that way
Here's a scenario:
Let's say you own a shoe store. It called 'Big RR's Sport Shoes and Yoga Pants'. You are a self made man and a lover of capitalism. Your store is located in one of the major cities in the US.
Now, every time Nike releases a new pair of Air Jordan's you've got a ton of people on welfare coming in and using their welfare money to have the latest edition of Air Jordan's. Is this a smart thing to do? No, but a lot of people on welfare are uneducated and spend every penny they receive from the government.
But...you want lower taxes so you vote in a government who lowers your taxes by 2% by cutting a lot of welfare programs. Sounds great right. But then the new Air Jordan comes out and your sales are cut by 30% because all those people on welfare don't have the checks to run out and spend. Now the 2% you saved becomes a tiny figure compared to profits lost.
Social programs feed capitalism. The government understands this.
So we are back to the origins of this thread.If being happy but broke is appealing then vote for Bernie.Im sure if hes in office you will get plenty of free shit.Wont need to pay much in taxes,higher wage earners will pay your share.Looks like a solid life plan.
I dont know.I guess the thought of more income,less taxes appeals to me more.im old fashioned that way
Here's a scenario:
Let's say you own a shoe store. It called 'Big RR's Sport Shoes and Yoga Pants'. You are a self made man and a lover of capitalism. Your store is located in one of the major cities in the US.
Now, every time Nike releases a new pair of Air Jordan's you've got a ton of people on welfare coming in and using their welfare money to have the latest edition of Air Jordan's. Is this a smart thing to do? No, but a lot of people on welfare are uneducated and spend every penny they receive from the government.
But...you want lower taxes so you vote in a government who lowers your taxes by 2% by cutting a lot of welfare programs. Sounds great right. But then the new Air Jordan comes out and your sales are cut by 30% because all those people on welfare don't have the checks to run out and spend. Now the 2% you saved becomes a tiny figure compared to profits lost.
Social programs feed capitalism. The government understands this.
The counter argument to this scenario is that the people who paid a higher tax rate, which went to the gov't and to the welfare recipients, those 'earner's would have spent the money themselves rather than having the gov't redistribute it to the recipients. The original earners are now demotivated from producing more, since their marginal gain is well...marginal.
But the reality is that Capitalism breeds winners and loser by its very nature. The question is how 'fair' the gov't should try to make it. What is the right balance without demotivating producers.
EH,I echo what Lolo said.We are a bunch of cranky old fuckers.Like walking into a red ant hill. I've put 3 thru college.2 are still there.We know all about your struggles and commitment and I can tell you all of us Moms and Dads on here are in your corner and pulling for you,regardless of the debate de jour.We are not as disconnected from youth as you may think.
Just remember. A degree is good and all but A combine tractor mechanic working for Catapiller makes 150,000 a year.My point is There are many good options other then 200k in dept.So no need to stress.You can still be very successful without a college degree.Hard work and good mind will take you wherever you need to go.If your passion needs a degree then go get it.But many paths you can follow.And I'll echo something my 25 yo son said recently when we were discussing this stuff."No one has ever asked to see my degree or diploma in any interview.just a piece of paper.How you interview and your personality makes more of a difference"
I know someone who never went to college, but his resume said he did and is very high up in a very big tech company. All because of that first job he applied for.
Yeah that would never happen for someone in my generation. That's great that generations before us got to do that, but now the world is just simply expecting more of us.
And to people who think that it isn't harder to get into good colleges now, you need to look at simple stats. More people are applying now than ever, which brings in more competition and a better applicant field. The worlds changing and not for the better, the least people can do is not be ignorant towards it.
EH is right. It's ungodly expensive, bachelor's are a dime a dozen, almost equivalent to a HS diploma for those coming into the work force. The trade jobs are great and I have tremendous respect for them, but I would not want my son working construction at 50, or hanging drywall. Someone has to do it and I respect that work, but I'm pushing my kids for something different. Factory jobs are too risky long term. They will be automated or outsourced.
Your thinking to narrow minded.If your son is bright and works hard,gets his license he could be a developer,custom home Builder,Specialty tradesman,Own that multi million dollar drywall company,Own his own garage.Run job sites,become a specialty trade builder etc. Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it. I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
Listen dude. My father was a Ukrainian immigrant who never got out of the 8th and was an electrician. He broke his back when I was 2 years old when he was a custodian in Cleveland City Schools. I watched him wither away and he was dead by my 19th birthday. I worked in restaurants from the time I was 14 until I lucked out my senior year in college and landed at a great company and went straight white collar. So as I said earlier, I'm having my kids play the probabilities. I don't want them to be blue collar. I am from a straight blue collar, immigrant family and it's hard as hell. I watched all my uncles, father, etc. die early and debilitated. Could they start a chain of home builders or import Chinese drywall? Yeah, of course. And if one of them struggles to get through college, then I'll adjust how I try to coach or lead them through the next phase of their life. So my thinking isn't narrow, but while they are in HS getting ready to college, I'm not preaching the trades to them. I'm playing the odds.
That's funny (not funny haha, and sorry about your dad), because of all of my friends, the ones who are most financially and personally successful are the ones in the trades ... or "blue collar" as you so quaintly put it, lol. Can a guy who brings home over $100K a year by running his own plumbing and gas fitting business or a guy who earns $80K as an electrician still be called blue collar? I don't know, but either way, it doesn't sound like something I'd plan on specifically persuading my kids against. I'd make sure my kids know all their options and what the benefits are for both trades and non-trades. I think the terms blue collar and white collar are ridiculous though, because the inference is that white collar is better than blue collar. And it's not. Both have positives and negatives, both can provide success or failure. Both are viable avenues.
But your examples are the owners of the business. Those are the ones that make the six figure salaries, not the 95% of the workers underneath them. So again, we're back to probabilities. It is more probable to earn that middle to upper middle class salary in the white collar world than blue collar, and preserve your body while doing it. You are also more likely to have a 401K, health insurance, paid vacation and other quality of life benefits. And those business owners of the tool & dye maker, pipefitters, etc. become white collar as they will reduce their physical labor contribution in their business.
And FYI, blue collar is neither a denigrating term or quaint. It's a fairly easy way to distinguish tradesman from an office worker.
No, ONE of them is an owner of his business. The others I know work for other people and earn that much. They are regular tradespeople working for companies. Being a trades person can be an excellent career, and at this point I absolutely disagree that the odds are higher of earning a good salary in office jobs.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Perhaps it's different in Canada. But in the US, trade jobs often don't offer the same level of benefits and it's absolutely more taxing on your body. If my son asked me if he should go into AC repair or Accounting, because he loved them both, I would tell him accounting without a second thought.
And then I would tell him to learn how to fix his own shit at home so he doesn't pay anyone. Anything that doesn't use highly specialized equipment I do myself. My blue collar background comes out then. I hate paying people to do something I can do with a little time, effort and the promise of a new tool.
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Parents as a whole think white collar is the only way.And truthfully look down on trades even though they respect it.
I can tell you without any hesitation,you can make fuck you money with a trade and a brain.
(and pretty sure most of us are too damned familiar with how fleeting life can be)
That said, really proud of some of my fellow posters here
I am proud of their eloquence and their character.
I think the terms blue collar and white collar are ridiculous though, because the inference is that white collar is better than blue collar. And it's not. Both have positives and negatives, both can provide success or failure. Both are viable avenues.
Isn't this true of anything the gov't does? In other words, why not say fuck public schooling, SCHIP, Medicaid, Medicare, SSA, etc.? Where do you personally draw the line?
For me, a social liberal, fiscal moderate and foreign policy conservative (note: not Rubio/Neocon, but a true conservative), I think universal health care is even more important than public schools. Health and living is above education the Hierarchy of Needs, so I think there is a moral imperative for this. I don't necessarily think single payer is the answer, mostly because I know it can't be done today.
Regarding education, I don't think the gov't should provide free university. States can choose to do that and certain states like CA and GA do it inexpensively. But the gov't does provide loans at exceedingly low interest rates with friendly deferments. I think this is enough. Plus I don't think you should be able to discharge them in any situation.
Regarding the effective tax rate, my guess is that if you have a mortgage, you're actual federal tax rate is quite low. Probably in the 16-20% range, presuming you didn't earn a ton that is subject to capital gains. I don't think the fed tax rate is outrageous at all today.
I dont know.I guess the thought of more income,less taxes appeals to me more.im old fashioned that way
And FYI, blue collar is neither a denigrating term or quaint. It's a fairly easy way to distinguish tradesman from an office worker.
So, you better not get sick or injured. But if you do, remember this. Higher taxes bad!
Let's say you own a shoe store. It called 'Big RR's Sport Shoes and Yoga Pants'. You are a self made man and a lover of capitalism. Your store is located in one of the major cities in the US.
Now, every time Nike releases a new pair of Air Jordan's you've got a ton of people on welfare coming in and using their welfare money to have the latest edition of Air Jordan's. Is this a smart thing to do? No, but a lot of people on welfare are uneducated and spend every penny they receive from the government.
But...you want lower taxes so you vote in a government who lowers your taxes by 2% by cutting a lot of welfare programs. Sounds great right. But then the new Air Jordan comes out and your sales are cut by 30% because all those people on welfare don't have the checks to run out and spend. Now the 2% you saved becomes a tiny figure compared to profits lost.
Social programs feed capitalism. The government understands this.
The original earners are now demotivated from producing more, since their marginal gain is well...marginal.
And then I would tell him to learn how to fix his own shit at home so he doesn't pay anyone. Anything that doesn't use highly specialized equipment I do myself. My blue collar background comes out then. I hate paying people to do something I can do with a little time, effort and the promise of a new tool.